Oneida Pro 1500 verses Grizzly GO441

[Paul Greathouse]

I've used the search function and can't come up with any head to head comparison of these two cyclones. There is alot of info on the Oneida dust collectors but not much on the Grizzly. They are both 3HP machines and seem to be equal in alot of areas except price.

I have been putting off buying a cyclone but it is time now. I have a Shop Fox Planer/Jointer on order and will be adding a 20" Planer and a 26" Drum Sander within the year so I will need quality dust control very soon.

What I need to know:
Is the Oneida Pro 1500 worth $600 more than the Grizzly GO441?
The following is a rough comparison I have put togeather from researching the two companies websites.

Oneida Pro 1500 - 5year Warranty - 3HP Class F Baldor motor
1593 CFM - 7" inlet to cyclone
Cyclone cost $1695
Steel Stand $244
Bag Gripper $117
35gal chip drum Standard
Remote control Not mentioned
Noise muffler Not mentioned
Total $2056

Grizzly GO441 - 1year Warranty - 3HP Class F motor made by the same factory that makes motors for their other machines
1654 CFM@ 2" Static Pressure (14.2 SP max) - 8" inlet to cyclone
Cyclone $1195
Steel Stand $170
Bag Holder $90
55gal chip drum Standard
Remote control Standard
Noise muffler Standard
Total $1455

I want to get the best for my money regardless of the country of origin. If I could buy exclusively American made tools I would but quite frankly most of the other large tool purchases I have planed are not American made due to availability and/or price. A good example is the Shop Fox Planer/Molder I have on order from Grizzly. We all know it is almost, if not completely identical to the Williams and Hussey but I saved roughly $1400 by buying the Shop Fox on sale.

So please, this is my one chance to buy American, on top of that Oneida is a Sawmill Creek Sponsor. convince me somehow that the Oneida is worth $600 more for what seems like a comparable machine.

My shop will eventually contain the following large machines:
20" Planer
26" Drum Sander
12" Jointer
Planer/Molder
Shaper
Bandsaw
Tablesaw

[Jim Becker]

Both are nice machines. One big edge to Oneida is that dust collection "is" their business. I felt that important back in 2000 when I bought my first cyclone from them and when I needed larger a few years ago, they were also my choice. After visiting their facility when I piocked up my current 2hp Commercial cyclone, it was obvious to me that their operation was top notch. I'm sure the Griz is great, too, as a machine.

[Paul Greathouse]

Both are nice machines. One big edge to Oneida is that dust collection "is" their business. I felt that important back in 2000 when I bought my first cyclone from them and when I needed larger a few years ago, they were also my choice. After visiting their facility when I piocked up my current 2hp Commercial cyclone, it was obvious to me that their operation was top notch. I'm sure the Griz is great, too, as a machine.

Thanks for the feedback Jim,

Without having seen either machine and not being too familiar with cyclones in general, I value the opinion of guys like you that have already been there and done that. I agree that a company that specializes normally has the edge.
I've just seen so many good reviews on the other Grizzly equipment lately, I was wondering if they had made the same positive strides with their dust collection. I'm more of a Chevy guy rather than the Caddilac type. If the Chevy gets the job done sufficiently I'm willing to settle for that and spend the saved money elsewhere.

[Gregory Stahl]

It is a G0441 for me--it is scheduled for delivery on Monday!

I have to run, but will tell you why later tonight--or you can look over on Woodnet for a discussion regarding a G0441 and 20-Amp breakers.

Greg

[Frederick Rowe]

Paul - Tough to compare without seeing both. I, having a Super Gorilla 2 HP, am biased towards Oneida. I've had it 2 years and am impressed with Oneida's service, quality, and the unit's performance. I also looked at the Grizzly line of cyclones. Look at the Oneida web site for a comparison with a Grizzly cyclone (unsure which model).

http://www.oneida-air.com/oneida_advantages/competitor_comparison_images.php

I'm sure the Grizzly cyclone performs well, but I'd encourage you to go with the Oneida. Or call Oneida and ask why you should go with theirs over the less expensive Grizzly. They periodically have specials, it might make your decision easier.

Oneida also offers free shipping on duct work over $100 (at least when I purchased). Plan on spending at least 50% of your cyclones cost in duct work. If necessary, live with flex hose until you figure out what you want, but having a well thought out duct system is just as important as whether there is a Grizzly or Oneida at the end of it.

Good Luck!

[Craig Coney]

I would take the information on Oneida's web site comaprisons lightly, and not too literally. I would call them or send emails requesting clairification on their competitive comparison claims.

Make sure that you ask alot of questions so that when the machine arrives, it arrives to your expectations.

[Frederick Rowe]

Craig - Out of curiosity, why take the Oneida comparisons lightly? They seem objective in that the statistics are empirical measurements, resourced when quoting third parties, and frequently in the form of comparative photos. What's to take lightly or not literally?

The Grizzly web site offers a 16 page booklet on cyclone dust collectors, which while generally informative and well written, offers no comparison to other manufacturers except for three photographs which show an Oneida cyclone in the background during "testing".

The numbers Oneida offers in their comparison CFM at 2" SP are the same as posted in the Grizzly document.

Frankly, I can't find a single fact offered by Oneida that can be refuted by the information provided by Grizzly.

Clearly, there are a lot a satisfied G0441 owners out there, so it's probably a decent machine. The question is, which is the better choice for the OP? Are the differences worth the cost difference?

As far as honest advertising, I'd say Oneida passes the test. Here are links I used:

http://www.grizzly.com/images/pdf/Cyclone_Dust_Collectors.pdf
http://www.oneida-air.com/oneida_advantages/3Hp_competitor_comparison.php

[Gregory Stahl]

I compared the two cyclones at IWF this year, and I did not see the weld issues on the Grizzly that Oneida cites on their website. In fact, I was more impressed with the manufacture of the Grizzly than the Oneida.

Also, someone on Woodnet brought up issues with his 20A breaker tripping when powering up his G0441. He took a bunch of current measurements, and came to the conclusion the system is running at very high current ratings for a 3HP system.

If the Grizzly G0441 really does run at near 20A or better at full load, this is substantially more than the 14.5A of the Oneida. So, this indicates to me the Grizzly is doing much more work than the Oneida--the system is actually running closer to 5HP than 3HP.

A Grizzly engineer finally chimed in and assured us the motor on the system is well within its tolerances--so, even though Grizzly didn't go so far as saying the motor is of higher HP, I am concluding it is.

So, my belief is this system is really a 4+ HP system which makes it one heck of a deal compared to other cyclones.

I decided I better back-up my words and actually get this model and do some testing for myself with a good oscilloscope and calibrated test equipment. If I need more air movement in the future, I'll deal with it then. Who knows, maybe my findings won't be anywhere close to what the other person experienced!

If there is anyone with an Oneida 3HP Gorilla or Pro within a couple hours drive of Madison, WI, and you would allow me to take some current measurements on your system, please PM me.

Best,
Greg Stahl

[Don Abele]

Paul, this may be a little off your original question, but why did you choose the Pro model?

The Pro costs $1010 more than the Super Gorilla and the only differences I see is the Pro gives you 39 more CFM, comes with the filter efficiency kit ($113.85), and has a 7" inlet vice the 8" on the Gorilla. I can't see why the Pro is so much more expensive.

This will be an upgrade I'll be making when I move the family to VA in the spring/summer. I was pretty much set on the Gorilla until I read a review about the G0441 about two weeks ago. So I'll watch this thread with great interest and look forward to hearing your decision/results.

Be well,

Doc

EDIT: OK, this post doesn't make much sense now that I went back and re-read the prices. Guess I was having a moment!!! The cost difference is only $110, which makes sense given the added efficiency kit. But as Paul points out below, it's odd that they offer two nearly identical units.

[Craig Coney]

Frederick-
On the oneida link you referenced, it states that the cyclone cone construction is all seam welded.

Here is the link for the 2HP SDG, which calls out the same.

http://www.oneida-air.com/oneida_advantages/2Hp_competitor_comparison.php

Quote from web page on cyclone cone construction row:


"Oneida - ALL SEAM WELDED 16 GA - Competitor stitch welded and lock seamed. Much cheaper construction style - CREATES AIR LEAKS."

Only the top flange is seam welded. The cone seam is spot welded and not sealed, other than by paint. If the spot weld shows light thru it, won't this also create air leaks?

The bottom ring connector on the cone for the dust collection hose is lock seamed, not welded.

If they state "All Seam Welded" - Doesn't this include all seams? Not just one or two? In my book, "All" means every, all inclusive, 100%, not less than 100%.


On the Barrel, quote from Oneida Web Page :
"Oneida - ALL SEAM WELDED 16 Gauge - Competitor is stitch welded in many places. Much cheaper construction style - CREATES AIR LEAKS "


There are 2 seams spot welded here as well. not "ALL SEAM WELDED " as claimed in the comparisons.


This is what they are advertising, which in my case was not 100% true. If they have changed production methods, then they need to update their comparisons to what is shipping out the door.

[Paul Greathouse]

Paul, this may be a little off your original question, but why did you choose the Pro model?

The Pro costs $1010 more than the Super Gorilla and the only differences I see is the Pro gives you 39 more CFM, comes with the filter efficiency kit ($113.85), and has a 7" inlet vice the 8" on the Gorilla. I can't see why the Pro is so much more expensive.

This will be an upgrade I'll be making when I move the family to VA in the spring/summer. I was pretty much set on the Gorilla until I read a review about the G0441 about two weeks ago. So I'll watch this thread with great interest and look forward to hearing your decision/results.

Be well,

Doc


Doc

I went back and checked the prices of the 3HP Pro1500 verses the 3HP Super Gorilla. You did mean $110 and not $1010 didn't you? Oneida stated some differences between the two I don't recall now what they were but for $110 difference I figured I would use what they consider their best to compare to the competition. Frankly I don't understand why Oneida would offer two so comparably matched systems for roughly the same price. Kind of similar to the two comparably priced planer models that Grizzly sells.

Where did you read the review on the GO441 I would like to see it? I haven't been able to turn up much info on them here at Sawmill Creek. I respect reviews from both the Oneida and Grizzly owners. I've heard alot of great things about the Oneida but the Grizzly doesn't get talked about much here, at least not that I have seen.

I would like to get more information before making my decision. I'll probably be purchasing one or the other in November.

[Paul Greathouse]

I compared the two cyclones at IWF this year, and I did not see the weld issues on the Grizzly that Oneida cites on their website. In fact, I was more impressed with the manufacture of the Grizzly than the Oneida.

Also, someone on Woodnet brought up issues with his 20A breaker tripping when powering up his G0441. He took a bunch of current measurements, and came to the conclusion the system is running at very high current ratings for a 3HP system.

If the Grizzly G0441 really does run at near 20A or better at full load, this is substantially more than the 14.5A of the Oneida. So, this indicates to me the Grizzly is doing much more work than the Oneida--the system is actually running closer to 5HP than 3HP.

A Grizzly engineer finally chimed in and assured us the motor on the system is well within its tolerances--so, even though Grizzly didn't go so far as saying the motor is of higher HP, I am concluding it is.

So, my belief is this system is really a 4+ HP system which makes it one heck of a deal compared to other cyclones.

I decided I better back-up my words and actually get this model and do some testing for myself with a good oscilloscope and calibrated test equipment. If I need more air movement in the future, I'll deal with it then. Who knows, maybe my findings won't be anywhere close to what the other person experienced!

If there is anyone with an Oneida 3HP Gorilla or Pro within a couple hours drive of Madison, WI, and you would allow me to take some current measurements on your system, please PM me.

Best,
Greg Stahl

Thanks for the feedback Greg

Please post the performance results of your system once you get it up and running. I'm having trouble locating the thread that you referred to at Woodnet, whats the best way to search it? Are there other threads at Woodnet that deal with the G0441?

[Don Abele]

LOL Paul...Ooooppppsss :o

Now it makes sense. I really mis-read the prices didn't I? I've edited my post above.

But the point you make is interesting - why have two nearly identical machines? I mean, what's the point?

Anyway, thanks for correcting my "moment" mistake. :D

As for the review, I can't remember where I read it, but it was a glowing report. Though if you really think about, there really aren't any cyclones on the market that are not getting good reviews by the end user. For the hobbyist, I think we would all be happy and get good results from any of the cyclones on the market. Trying to figure out which one is best is a difficult task at best.

Be well,

Doc

[Bartee Lamar]

Well, I have the G0441. I think is great. I have tested it with 6" pipe attached and it worked great.

Here is how I got it delivered. (http://picasaweb.google.com/bartee/200708CycloneDelivery#)

Here is the link to my install of my cyclone. (http://picasaweb.google.com/bartee/GrizzlyG0441CycloneDustCollectionInstallation#)

The fit and finish are excellent. remote works very well from anywhere in the shop and almost at any angle.

I did build an enclosure room ( link ) (http://picasaweb.google.com/bartee/CycloneEnclosureRoom#) around it, but have found the noise goes way down as you hook up the piping.

I think a single woodworker in a shop, using one machine at time can get by with a 2hp unit. Of course being a guy, bigger is better, so I got the 3hp unit. A 2 hp would be quieter and I think would work.

I am piping with 6" pvc.

Here is my basic observations. From the Many threads I have read, not ONE person has been disatisfied with their cyclone. Grizzly, Penn State, Gorilla, or ClearVue. If you get down to the the very fine points that have been documented, I am sure you would find a difference. But for me, I have a 1 micron air cleaner and with the cyclone I am very satisfied with the incredible dust reduction in my shop.

I will have complete 6" PVC piping album soon. I am just finishing, but have to wait on my sawstop to complete the final leg.

[Paul Greathouse]

Well, I have the G0441. I think is great. I have tested it with 6" pipe attached and it worked great.

Here is how I got it delivered. (http://picasaweb.google.com/bartee/200708CycloneDelivery#)

Here is the link to my install of my cyclone. (http://picasaweb.google.com/bartee/GrizzlyG0441CycloneDustCollectionInstallation#)

The fit and finish are excellent. remote works very well from anywhere in the shop and almost at any angle.

I did build an enclosure room ( link ) (http://picasaweb.google.com/bartee/CycloneEnclosureRoom#) around it, but have found the noise goes way down as you hook up the piping.

I think a single woodworker in a shop, using one machine at time can get by with a 2hp unit. Of course being a guy, bigger is better, so I got the 3hp unit. A 2 hp would be quieter and I think would work.

I am piping with 6" pvc.

Here is my basic observations. From the Many threads I have read, not ONE person has been disatisfied with their cyclone. Grizzly, Penn State, Gorilla, or ClearVue. If you get down to the the very fine points that have been documented, I am sure you would find a difference. But for me, I have a 1 micron air cleaner and with the cyclone I am very satisfied with the incredible dust reduction in my shop.

I will have complete 6" PVC piping album soon. I am just finishing, but have to wait on my sawstop to complete the final leg.

Bartee, Thanks for the response and most of all for the pictorials. Someone like you is who I needed to hear from. Up till now I haven't seen a whole lot of information from someone who actually has one.

Hopefully Greg's will be delivered today and I will hear even more good news.

[John Bush]

Hi Paul,
Apples to apples?? I have the 2hp 0440 and it has worked well for me. I had considered the Oneida but shipping from right to left coast was huge relative to being able to pick it up at the Bellingham showroom. I did lots of research on manufacturers and calcs on realistic performance needs and the 0440 was the best match. My initial decision was for the Oneida primarily due to the very favorable posts here and the unknowns about the Griz's new entries into cyclone DCs. Costs began to sway me to Griz and after seeing the machine in the flesh, I chose it(them). The F&F is great and I have not noticed any seam leaking problems. I occasionally think the 3hp would have been a better unit, but that is just the Tim Taylor part of me when it comes to machines.....Arruuugh...... The 2hp has been perfect so far and I don't think you could go wrong with either choice.

I used HVAC pipe and fittings as I thought I could save some $$$$, but in the long run I spent a lot of time fiddling with fittings to adapt to direction of flow. From first hand experience I recommend paying the premium for the DC designed pipe and fittings. You will save lots of time, frustration and bandaids!! Good luck, JCB.

[Dave Laird in NM]

I bought my first cyclone fron Oneida in 1995 and ran it for 12 years. I did great and the only reason I had to upgrade was the face that I needed more CFM than was available with a 1.5 hp unit. I bought an new Oneida 2.5 hp cyclone.

The new cyclone is quieter than any piece of equipment in my shop and has better suction than I expected.

Great quality, great service, good price on Made in America equipment.

Dave Laird
D & N Specialties
Woodworkers Supply Pro Sales

[Paul Greathouse]

Hi Paul,
Apples to apples?? I have the 2hp 0440 and it has worked well for me. I had considered the Oneida but shipping from right to left coast was huge relative to being able to pick it up at the Bellingham showroom. I did lots of research on manufacturers and calcs on realistic performance needs and the 0440 was the best match. My initial decision was for the Oneida primarily due to the very favorable posts here and the unknowns about the Griz's new entries into cyclone DCs. Costs began to sway me to Griz and after seeing the machine in the flesh, I chose it(them). The F&F is great and I have not noticed any seam leaking problems. I occasionally think the 3hp would have been a better unit, but that is just the Tim Taylor part of me when it comes to machines.....Arruuugh...... The 2hp has been perfect so far and I don't think you could go wrong with either choice.

I used HVAC pipe and fittings as I thought I could save some $$$$, but in the long run I spent a lot of time fiddling with fittings to adapt to direction of flow. From first hand experience I recommend paying the premium for the DC designed pipe and fittings. You will save lots of time, frustration and bandaids!! Good luck, JCB.


Thanks for the positive feedback on the Grizzly John,

I'm going with the 3hp because my shop will probalby become a second income cabinet shop when I retire. I've been working shift work at my regular job since 1981 and I don't want to have to do it into my older years. I'm 47 now so I would like to start taking on a kitchen or two a year to get the business established so that I would know what I have before I get to retirement age.

The 2 - 2 1/2 models would probably be great for a 1 man shop but if my plans hold up I may have an employee or two someday and I want to be able to run more than one machine at a time if necessary. Also, depending on how I place my machines in my 30x50 shop I may have a long run to some equipment.

[Paul Greathouse]

I bought my first cyclone fron Oneida in 1995 and ran it for 12 years. I did great and the only reason I had to upgrade was the face that I needed more CFM than was available with a 1.5 hp unit. I bought an new Oneida 2.5 hp cyclone.

The new cyclone is quieter than any piece of equipment in my shop and has better suction than I expected.

Great quality, great service, good price on Made in America equipment.

Dave Laird
D & N Specialties
Woodworkers Supply Pro Sales


Thanks for the info Dave,

Its good to hear that the Oneida has such staying power. You guys are making my decision hard, so many good reviews on both systems.

[Bartee Lamar]

Paul,

If you are planning to use this for a 2 man shop, you should seriously consider 8" main pipe trunk. Since I am a one man shop it did not bother me to reduce down to 6" at the machine.

As I understand suckage, it's really based on the smallest diameter. So once you go to 6" that's your capacity.

This really screams for professional piping help, which Oneida will provide. You get into MUCH more costly piping, but I think you would see a difference.

The real problem is so much machinery goes down to 4".

Maybe someone else can jump in with a little more info.

...bartee...

[Paul Greathouse]

Paul,

If you are planning to use this for a 2 man shop, you should seriously consider 8" main pipe trunk. Since I am a one man shop it did not bother me to reduce down to 6" at the machine.

As I understand suckage, it's really based on the smallest diameter. So once you go to 6" that's your capacity.

This really screams for professional piping help, which Oneida will provide. You get into MUCH more costly piping, but I think you would see a difference.

The real problem is so much machinery goes down to 4".

Maybe someone else can jump in with a little more info.

...bartee...

Thanks Bartee,

I am seriously considering an 8" main run. Don't know if you noticed but the GO441 has an 8" inlet. I don't remember if it was Oneida or Grizzly but one of them has the clamp togeather ductwork for sale on their website. Its more expensive but I'm thinking more long-term. Also, the clamp togeather appears to be much simpler to take down if it is ever necessary. Thats one of the reasons I was hoping the Grizzly was up to par performance wise. If I can save $600 on the cyclone, I can apply that towards better ductwork.

[Frederick Rowe]

Bartee - Nice job on your cyclone install. The hoist was a clever solution. I'm curious what the noise reduction was after you enclosed the cyclone. Be careful now that it is "out of sight - out of mind". It is easy to fill the barrel on a large milling project.

[Jim Becker]

I would take the information on Oneida's web site comaprisons lightly, and not too literally. I would call them or send emails requesting clairification on their competitive comparison claims.

I have witnessed how they do their in-house testing when I visited their place a couple years ago and would not be concerned with their published results being out of line. They are one of the few companies out there that you can say that about. Independent testing typicaly tends to back up the fan curves, too. Unlike mass-marketers, they have a lot more to lose if they were to trick things up since dust collection is their only business. But it's certainly good advise to ask questions and for clarification of anything you might wish to better understand; both from a results standpoint and from a testing methodology standpoint.

[Tim Anderson]

Paul, I'm also a Chevy kinda guy that's currently driving an Oneida. Since you're asking value questions I will throw out areas I saved in order to drive the Oneida. Hopefully this won't highjack your thread. I bought my blast gates from Blastgateco.com and they have worked very well @ third the price. My duct came from Oneida with a discount on orders over $500. I fab'd my own floor sweep and used reducers from HVAC supply house. My stand also was built by a local welder using Oneida's specs @ a fraction of the price. All told saved over $400 without sacrificing quality. I think you will be happy with either cyclone you buy and saved money is still money. I will say that Oneida's customer service is on my short list of top companies. Their suggestions saved me money.

Tim

[Jack Mincey]

I am in the market for a cyclone as well. One factor that pulls me to the 2.5 hp Oneida is the amp draw. It's been 28 years since I had an electricity coarse in school, but I think Amps x Voilt x Hours / 1,000= KW of electricity used. Correct me if I'm wrong. This being said, a dust collector is on more than any other tool in your shop. Depending on what eletricity cost are where you live, I would think over a period of a few years being used 4 to 8 hours a day the savings in electricity just might pay for the higher cost of the Oneida unit.
Jack

[Bartee Lamar]

Paul,

The Grizz is 8" intake duct size at the machine.

I can tell you this is VERY well built. I am sure there are differences between the machines, but I will say again, I am very impressed with the Grizz. The motor base is just one example:

98210

The enclosure has worked and the machines are now louder than the cyclone. So I have to get into habit of turning it off. However, these motors are designed to run so forgetting it for a while I don't think will be a problem.

Glad my pictures are a help. I enjoy doing them and Picasa and Picasa Web are really easy and fun to use.

[John Willoughby]

Bartee
great pic's on the install, I wish I had that much head room.

[Paul Greathouse]

Paul, I'm also a Chevy kinda guy that's currently driving an Oneida. Since you're asking value questions I will throw out areas I saved in order to drive the Oneida. Hopefully this won't highjack your thread. I bought my blast gates from Blastgateco.com and they have worked very well @ third the price. My duct came from Oneida with a discount on orders over $500. I fab'd my own floor sweep and used reducers from HVAC supply house. My stand also was built by a local welder using Oneida's specs @ a fraction of the price. All told saved over $400 without sacrificing quality. I think you will be happy with either cyclone you buy and saved money is still money. I will say that Oneida's customer service is on my short list of top companies. Their suggestions saved me money.

Tim

Tim, dont be concerned about hijacking the thread, your information is very valuable. Thank You for sharing it, now I have more things to consider.

The duct discount you speak of for orders over $500, is that a discount they run all of the time?

I have three small welding shops within about 3 miles of my house, how did you go about getting the specs for Oneidas stand? Thanks for the idea, I had never considered having a stand built, no matter which system I use I will definately be using a stand. Besides being cheaper it would save shipping on the stand.

[Gregory Stahl]

Just remember that if the system is drawing less amps, it is doing less work--moving less air. HP output is directly related to the current being measured. That is why I favored the G0441 as it has the same current ratings as Grizzly and Oneida's 5HP systems.

Greg



I am in the market for a cyclone as well. One factor that pulls me to the 2.5 hp Oneida is the amp draw. It's been 28 years since I had an electricity coarse in school, but I think Amps x Voilt x Hours / 1,000= KW of electricity used. Correct me if I'm wrong. This being said, a dust collector is on more than any other tool in your shop. Depending on what eletricity cost are where you live, I would think over a period of a few years being used 4 to 8 hours a day the savings in electricity just might pay for the higher cost of the Oneida unit.
Jack

[Rod Sheridan]

Just remember that if the system is drawing less amps, it is doing less work--moving less air. HP output is directly related to the current being measured. That is why I favored the G0441 as it has the same current ratings as Grizzly and Oneida's 5HP systems.

Greg

Hi Gregory, unfortunately comparing motors by current draw is no indication of which motor has a higher horsepower rating or is performing more work.

A low power factor, low efficiency motor will require more current than a high power factor, high efficiency motor.

My tablesaw (General 650) has a premium motor in it that draws 12.5 amperes for 3 HP. I've seen other low efficiency, low power factor motors that draw 18 amperes, yet only produce 3 HP of work.

A premium efficiency motor (higher initial cost) will save you money in the long run on a cyclone because of the many hours of use it will see during its lifetime.

If you measure the current on a particular motor, yes the higher the current, the more load on the motor. This however is not necessarilly true when comparing two different motors.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. I checked the Grizzly website, and the motor for the G0441 is rated 3HP, 19.5A at 220 Volts. This works out to 17.9 A at 240 volts, for comparison to the premium efficiency 3 HP motor at 12.5A.........Rod.

[Jack Mincey]

As far as Comparing how much work a dust collector is doing the only way is to use CFM's. According to the independent test I've read Oneida do the best in these test up against the rest. This means that you are getting more for the electicity being used. If you use a dust collector 6 hours a day for 200 days one using 12.5 amps at 240 volts and other at 20 amps at 240 volts the 20 amp machine would consume around 2000 KW more electricity. If I can move the same amount of air or more for less cost it is a easy choice.
Jack

[Gregory Stahl]

Exactly--there is no way the motor is that inefficient!

I doubt the motor is less than 70-percent efficient, and PF is at a minimum at full load. Baldor motors are 80% efficient at full load.

Testing by a woodnet member has shown that his system is routinely drawing 20A. The ratings for the G0441 are now 22.5A per the manual, about the same as the 5HP system by Grizzly and Oneida. This 22A was measured multiple times by another individual, and I am going to verify them in the near future with my new machine that is currently sitting on my shop floor.

By my calculation, HP for a motor that is only 50-percent efficient would be:

220V x 22.5A = 4950W / 745.7 = 6.638 / .50 (assuming the motor is 50% efficient) = 3.319HP

If the motor is 70-percent efficient--the horsepower would be about 4.6HP.

I am not stating that this is the case, merely it is an indication that the system is closer to 5-HP since the grizzly updates, and would be an excellent value if this is the case.

I'm spending my own money to back this assumption up; so, I will prove the motor is either extremely inefficient, in which case I will be disappointed with my purchase, or the system itself is in fact greater than 3HP. Or, which could be the case, the woodnet member's measurements are completey inaccurate.





P.S. I checked the Grizzly website, and the motor for the G0441 is rated 3HP, 19.5A at 220 Volts. This works out to 17.9 A at 240 volts, for comparison to the premium efficiency 3 HP motor at 12.5A.........Rod.[/quote]

[Rod Sheridan]

Exactly--there is no way the motor is that inefficient!

I doubt the motor is less than 70-percent efficient, and PF is at a minimum at full load. Baldor motors are 80% efficient at full load.

Testing by a woodnet member has shown that his system is routinely drawing 20A. The ratings for the G0441 are now 22.5A per the manual, about the same as the 5HP system by Grizzly and Oneida. This 22A was measured multiple times by another individual, and I am going to verify them in the near future with my new machine that is currently sitting on my shop floor.

By my calculation, HP for a motor that is only 50-percent efficient would be:

220V x 22.5A = 4950W / 745.7 = 6.638 / .50 (assuming the motor is 50% efficient) = 3.319HP

If the motor is 70-percent efficient--the horsepower would be about 4.6HP.

I am not stating that this is the case, merely it is an indication that the system is closer to 5-HP since the grizzly updates, and would be an excellent value if this is the case.

I'm spending my own money to back this assumption up; so, I will prove the motor is either extremely inefficient, in which case I will be disappointed with my purchase, or the system itself is in fact greater than 3HP. Or, which could be the case, the woodnet member's measurements are completey inaccurate.





P.S. I checked the Grizzly website, and the motor for the G0441 is rated 3HP, 19.5A at 220 Volts. This works out to 17.9 A at 240 volts, for comparison to the premium efficiency 3 HP motor at 12.5A.........Rod.[/quote]


Hi Gregory, your calculation failed to take into account the power factor of the motor.

Motor power factor is at a maximum at full load, and I wouldn't expect a low quality motor to be above .70.

Using your 4950VA from your calculation X .70PF X .7 Efficiency results in 2,426W or 3.3 HP.

I expect that the Grizzly motor is simply a low efficiency, low power factor 3 HP motor.

Once you have the unit, it would be very interesting if you could measure the voltage, current and power consumption of the motor with all your system gates open. That would give us an accurate power, and power factor measurement.

Regards, Rod.

[Tim Anderson]

Paul, I have the 2HP Super gorilla. The Oneida stand specs were in the owners manual. You can download the owners manual to review prior to purchase. I don't know if the Grizzly stand is available, I didn't look. Oneida's customer service was very helpful. As far as the discount, I got one because I asked. With price increases they may not be able to discount now. ( I always ask for a senior citizen discount when I'm traveling. If they tell me I don't look old enough, I take the compliment otherwise I get a discount. Sometimes I would rather have the compliment.) :)

PS. I think you would like the Oneida. Go ahead you deserve it.
Tim

[Gregory Stahl]

I did not take power factor into consideration as it is at its highest at full load. Power factor is the variable that is going to prove if this is a good motor or not. My intention is to measure this with a Fluke 39 or 41. I am going to measure this while increasing the load by opening the duct. If the power factor flattens out or tapers off at full load, I will consider this a 3HP motor, and expect the power factor to have tapered off into the .7 range just as you mentioned in your post. I'll have the HP reading from the meter too. However, I am hoping to see the power factor increase right up through full load and not taper off at all. This will indicate to me the motor is rated at a higher HP than Grizzly advertises, and it will be interesting to see what kind of ratings I get at full load. I'll know the results soon.

Just finished mounting the DC tonight. Flipped the switch to power it up, and within a couple seconds...click, the 20A circuit breaker tripped. I am on a stiff power source in an industrial park. This motor definitely has some magnetics to it. I'll have to get a scope on it and measure the inrush current as well. I was expecting this result though--so not surprised one bit. I'll have to call my electrician tomorrow to get another 30A circuit installed.

Best, Greg Stahl

[Paul Greathouse]

Let us know how it all turns out Greg, Thanks for posting.

[Jamie Delker]

Paul, as you requested I have posted a response, but put it in our manufacturer's forum: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=94257

I hope I was able to answer your questions.

Thanks,
Jamie
Oneida Air Systems

[Paul Greathouse]

Well almost a month later I finally placed my order. I went with the Oneida 1500 Pro mainly due to all the positive Oneida responses here and the 5 year warranty.

It wasn't an easy decision. Total price including ductwork was $3281.08. The original ductwork estimate to service 7 machines was $1652.79. I decided to not order the entire ductwork at this time, since I only need 3 drops for now. That reduced the ductwork price to $791.94. I'll order additional ductwork as I add machines. The great thing is Matt sent me a copy of the total system design so when it comes time to add ductwork I will know exactly what I need.

I did add a few upgrades which is part of what brought the price up:
Metal Stand
55 gallon steel drum
Bag Gripper
Remote

As part of the deal I got a free Deluxe Dust Deputy ($199 value), 10% discount on the ductwork, free shipping on the ductwork and free ductwork design.

Matt was great to deal with, he answered all my questions and made the selection process very smooth. I think I will be more than pleased with the system even though I spent a little more than I first expected. I can't wait to get it in and start the installation. The 1500 Pro should take care of all my future needs and thats what I was shooting for, I didn't want to have to upgrade later.

To top it all off duck and goose season opens tomorrow morning so I'll be going to bed now, have to get up early in the morning.

[glenn bradley]

I am in the market for a cyclone as well. One factor that pulls me to the 2.5 hp Oneida is the amp draw. It's been 28 years since I had an electricity coarse in school, but I think Amps x Voilt x Hours / 1,000= KW of electricity used. Correct me if I'm wrong. This being said, a dust collector is on more than any other tool in your shop. Depending on what eletricity cost are where you live, I would think over a period of a few years being used 4 to 8 hours a day the savings in electricity just might pay for the higher cost of the Oneida unit.
Jack

California has pretty expensive electricity compared to a lot of the country. So it looks like a difference of 5 amps is about 12 - 15 cents an hour?

[Chip Lindley]

As a preface, let me say I am no electrical engineer, nor am I an expert on DC design. But, I have been a user of various DCs for 20 years.

Let us assume two identical cyclones with two identical impellers are being propelled by two different motors at the same 3450 RPM. One draws 20 amps, the other 14.5 amps. Common sense tells me the larger amp draw is wasting power somewhere! Many Tiawanese motors have been accused of wasting power instead of converting it into usable torque. Amp draw does not necessisarily equate with more "power". Your meter is spinning faster to accomplish the same work as the more efficient motor.

A 5 hp DC system would be physically larger, and have a larger impeller than a 3 hp system, to create more CFM than the smaller system. The extra 2 hp is being converted to CFM rather than electrical waste. To see amperage go up dangerously, put a 3 hp motor on what otherwise would be a 5 hp system. The smaller motor works beyond its design capability to power the "too large" system.

Conversely, putting a 5 HP motor on a 3 HP system may or may not be more efficient. The 5 would not be working nearly as hard as the 3, but the amp draw of the 5 doing "easy work" may still be more than the 3 at full capacity. Amp loads would have to be measured to draw any definite conclusion. Gotta know the rules to play the game! Any takers??

[Joe Jensen]

If the Grizzly G0441 really does run at near 20A or better at full load, this is substantially more than the 14.5A of the Oneida. So, this indicates to me the Grizzly is doing much more work than the Oneida--the system is actually running closer to 5HP than 3HP.

A Grizzly engineer finally chimed in and assured us the motor on the system is well within its tolerances--so, even though Grizzly didn't go so far as saying the motor is of higher HP, I am concluding it is.

So, my belief is this system is really a 4+ HP system which makes it one heck of a deal compared to other cyclones.

I think you may be drawing the wrong conclusion. Electric motors have different efficiencies. Baldor even makes two different efficiency ranges for their motors. A 3HP standard, and a 5HP high efficiency that draw very close to the same current. Cheaper motors normally draw more current. I think a more likely reason for the current difference is that Griz is using a lower efficiency motor (cheaper). More current, more power, more cost, no more work output. Google electic motor efficiency, or search this forum for more details...joe

[Gregory Stahl]

I think you may be drawing the wrong conclusion. Electric motors have different efficiencies. Baldor even makes two different efficiency ranges for their motors. A 3HP standard, and a 5HP high efficiency that draw very close to the same current. Cheaper motors normally draw more current. I think a more likely reason for the current difference is that Griz is using a lower efficiency motor (cheaper). More current, more power, more cost, no more work output. Google electic motor efficiency, or search this forum for more details...joe

Hi Joe,

I have some experience in this field and plan to test this soon.

Everybody's argument is the motor is not efficient. People don't realize that the power factor of this motor would have to be absolutely terrible, far worse than than a cheep Chineese motor.

Also, if power factor is low, it does not cost you more for electricity. You are billed by how many watts you use, not amps. So, if a good and bad motor are running at 3HP, they cost the same to operate.

Stay tuned, the DC is all set-up and will be tested sometime soon.

Greg

[Gregory Stahl]

Conversely, putting a 5 HP motor on a 3 HP system may or may not be more efficient. The 5 would not be working nearly as hard as the 3, but the amp draw of the 5 doing "easy work" may still be more than the 3 at full capacity. Amp loads would have to be measured to draw any definite conclusion. Gotta know the rules to play the game! Any takers??

Exactly--the whole reason to get a power meter on the thing and see where it is running!

The PF on the 5HP will be lower than what would be expected with a 3HP because it is not at full load.

Just need some time to get to this--but will.

Greg

[Rick Moyer]

Exactly--the whole reason to get a power meter on the thing and see where it is running!

The PF on the 5HP will be lower than what would be expected with a 3HP because it is not at full load.

Just need some time to get to this--but will.

Greg

Any measurements yet?

[Duane McGuire]

Cool pictures, Bartee. Thanks.

[John Hedges]

It really blows me away that some here are actually trying to tout the Grizzly Chiwanese low efficiency motor over an american made Baldor, as being an advantage to the Grizzly cyclone. Guess I've seen everything now.

[Gregory Stahl]

Any measurements yet?


Not yet--may have to tear the whole shop down. Been traveling and spending time in Maryland. We may be moving there real quick. My wife has to have an answer in to her boss in the next week, and then we'll find out how fast we have to relocate.

I'll be traveling most of the month, so won't be in the shop for the next several weeks.

Everything is ready to go though.

[Gregory Stahl]

It really blows me away that some here are actually trying to tout the Grizzly Chiwanese low efficiency motor over an american made Baldor, as being an advantage to the Grizzly cyclone. Guess I've seen everything now.


You should read more carefully!

We are questioning the true HP capability of the Grizzly machine, not the printed rating.

I don't think anyone is comparing the quality of the two motors--I'd take a Baldor any day over a Grizzly if this was the only comparison.

BTW, all motors are inefficient if they are not used at or near their ratings--the reason myself and possibly some others are thinking the Grizzly has an over-sized motor on it.

Greg

[Randy Dutkiewicz]

Bartee,

First off, I just want to say "WOW" to a fantastic job you did on your DC enclosure! Very impressive. I am about to pust the button on purchasing the 0440 2HP Grizzly DC and I too want to build an enclosure. Mine, however will be in the garage, but noise is still an issue. My question is: what is the total footprint of your enclosure build? I know the dimensions of the DC itself and I intend to buy the stand with mine (since mounting it to the wall is not an option for me as the wall is adjoining to the interior of the house, thus would create more interior noise/vibration I think), but curious on your footprint. I have limited space in my garage and wanted to get some idea on how much space I would lose. I appreciate your time.

PS: Alpharetta is a really nice place. Although my family and I now live in Savannah, GA, we still own a home in Snellville, GA!

Randy

[Steve knight]

one thing no one has talked about is the filters. the oneida filters are designed for the job. they don't have all of the pleats that clogs up as fast as most of the others. they are also higher quality. I was debating on buying them for my setep.