Polyurethane foam

[joe milana]

Never used Polyurethane (ie. gorilla glue) and am considering giving it a try. I would use resorcinal glue but I'm currently out. Just some trim pieces on a cedar flower box. How do you deal with the foam? Keep wiping until it quits foaming? Wait till it cures, then "scrape" it off? Painters tape adjacent to the joint then peel the tape off? Just how messy is this stuff?

-Joe

[rob mason]

I would categorize it as very messy. I've only had luck scraping it off after the foam dries and hardens completely. I'm hoping others chime in with their expeiriences.

[Per Swenson]

This I am sure will come out sounding harsh and will cause all kinds of controversy. So be it.

But. You are excused from using Gorrila glue once.
The first time. After that.....

Want to glue stuff outside with a Poly glue?

PL premium polyurethane construction adhesive.
accept no substitute.

Per

[joe milana]

Actually, I had a tube of that in my hands at the borg then decided to ask about the poly. I've used PL400 on subfloors before but it is awful thick. Doesn't seem like I'd get the joints to close with something that thick.

[Per Swenson]

You don't need much.
And its Forever (http://www.amazon.com/Henkel-10-2-Ounce-Polyurethane-Construction-P73948125/dp/B0002Y)

After that do a great gizoogle search on both glues.

Per

[rob mason]

At the risk of opening a can of worms...

Other than the messy factor - what else is wrong with gorilla glue?

[J. Z. Guest]

I like a gloss polyurethane finish on my projects, so I really like Gorilla Glue. (it doesn't show up as white splotches under poly if you miss a bit, like regular wood glue does)

Cleaning up the foam as it foams out is enough to try my patience. I tried it that way once, and it was a pain in the neck. Let it finish foaming. (up to about 90 minutes) Not too long after that, scrape the foam off with a putty knife. It comes off easily at that point. Getting it out of nooks & crannies is more difficult. If you absolutely need to get every last bit out, just try not to use too much and follow the clean-up directions on the bottle. (acetone or mineral spirits instead of water)

The bond poly glue makes is quite strong. Not as strong as regular wood glue like the Titebond series, but it has a bit of give to it that white & yellow glues don't have.

[Per Swenson]

Folks,

It just my opinion.
But take a lookee here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=V4&q=gorilla+glue+sucks&start=0&sa=N) and here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/search.php?searchid=2413028) then do a search here on SMC for what Bob Smalser has to say.

Then, If I may be so bold, why on earth in woodworking would you want any kind of glue not exactly where you put it?
Just saying.

Per

[Lee Schierer]

One way to significantly reduce the foaming aspects of polyurethane glue is to NOT dampen the surfaces prior to applying the glue. Use the glue sparingly so that all surfaces are coted, but squeeze out when clamped should be very minimal. I have found joints made without the wetting seem to have stronger joints, because the faoming is not as great.

There is more than enough moisture in the air and in the wood, even kiln dried stuff, to cure the glue. It may take a few hours more for full cure, but it will cure.

[Matt Ocel]

I'm with Per.
PL.
I use it alot, and it has never let me down.
PL has a full line of adhesives, but most people reconize PL 400.

P.S. Liquid nails=:(

[J. Z. Guest]

How many times are you going to give your opinion and bash Gorilla glue Per?

Sam Maloof seems to have OK luck with Gorilla Glue, and he seems to know what he's doing. Lots of us seem to do OK with Gorilla Glue. The Ash nightstands I built have Gorilla glue in all the joinery, and Titebond III for all the glue-ups. (to simplify clean-up) I will even admit that a couple of my M&T joints were not as tight as they could have been, and although the foam that GG makes is not intended to be structural, it has served for me to fill in a loose-fitting joint here and there.

I have a suspicion that the folks who have things fall apart when glued with Gorilla glue were not following the instructions. It needs moisture to work.

[joe milana]

I did notice that PL has a polyurethane glue on the shelf right next to the gorilla glue. It mentions nothing about foam, just says to lightly dampen the surfaces before applying.
I found resorcinal glue locally so I am going with that....Huge working time, easy clean up, sands/mills very well, rated for continuous submersion, and I've used it for years on teak boat trim without a failure.

I think I will also grab a tube of PL AND a tube of "Gorilla" type glue and experiment.
Sure appreciate all the input!

[Jim Becker]

Wait until the foam cures before you attempt to remove. And DO wear gloves when using poly glues unless you like really black fingers that stay that way for a long time... ;)

[rob mason]

Folks,

It just my opinion.
But take a lookee here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=V4&q=gorilla+glue+sucks&start=0&sa=N) and here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/search.php?searchid=2413028) then do a search here on SMC for what Bob Smalser has to say.
Per

Ha! Searching google on anything 'sucks' is a little predictable - you're sure to find at least 1 person of dissent on any subject.

The second link you provided doesnt work.

Again, not trying to start any wars here. I've used it. It works. It's very messy, but it holds.

[Per Swenson]

The second link is a search for right here on SMC.

Hit that search button and type in gorrilla glue

Jeremy, I don't often bash stuff and I mean no slight to those who use it.
It won't make you a rotten Human being or any thing.

It won't make you any less of a craftsman.
Frankly I get no pleasure in saying a product sucks.
So let me say this as diplomatically as possible.

There are numerous alternatives to this stuff that have none of the drawbacks.

All available minutes from your home.

Kay? How's that?

Per

[Larry Marley]

How many times are you going to give your opinion and bash Gorilla glue Per?

Sam Maloof seems to have OK luck with Gorilla Glue, and he seems to know what he's doing. Lots of us seem to do OK with Gorilla Glue. The Ash nightstands I built have Gorilla glue in all the joinery, and Titebond III for all the glue-ups. (to simplify clean-up) I will even admit that a couple of my M&T joints were not as tight as they could have been, and although the foam that GG makes is not intended to be structural, it has served for me to fill in a loose-fitting joint here and there.

I have a suspicion that the folks who have things fall apart when glued with Gorilla glue were not following the instructions. It needs moisture to work.

I spent a day with Sam Maloof last March and he told me Gorilla glue is terrible and he will never use it again. He also said he doesn't care for Titebond III.

I use Gorilla Glue with steamed bent laminations because the remaining moisture content works well with it. It is just so messy.

[Gary Breckenridge]

My solution to dealing with the foam from Gorilla Glue is to use Titebond II.:cool:

[Tom Veatch]

My solution to dealing with the foam from Gorilla Glue is to use Titebond II.:cool:

My solution for almost all squeeze-out, including the Poly foam, is to let it set, take the nose piece off an old Stanley #90, make a couple of light passes along the joint, and, voila, no more glue stay.

Incidently, as others have noted, I've never found a need to dampen the surface for poly, either GG, or any of its competitors. I use poly glue infrequently, but when I do, it's applied sparingly with no added moisture, and the foaming is quite manageable.

[Per Swenson]

Read this, now of course they are talking boats....


I am talking fine wood working, anyway quite the education.

Bob Smalser (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum//showthread.php?t=73131)


Per

[Bob Slater]

I liked Gorilla glue for sealing wood joints that aren't a great fit.

[Howard Acheson]

First, let me say I am not a fan of the poly glues primarily because I have found no advantage to them over standard PVA glues when gluing wood to wood joints except for gluing oily, exotic woods. "Creep" is much less of a problem but there are other adhesives that are creep resistant such as plastic resin and hide glue. I'm sure there are other opinions however.

That said, like any PVA glue (white or yellow) the poly's are no stronger than the wood itself--and may be weaker if they are not used correctly. In some recent tests in a woodworking magazine, Gorilla Glue was significantly weaker than PVA adhesives. Poly adhesives cure by a reaction with moisture but many use too much adhesive and moisture. Excess moisture increases the reaction but shortens open time--one of their claimed benefits--and results in excessive foaming and a weaker joint. If the wood is at a moisture content of 10% or more, additional dampening is probably detrimental, not helpful. There are now PVA glues with extended open time. In fact the white PVA has virtually exactly the same open time as the poly. The yellow PVA was formulated originally to respond to woodworkers who wanted a faster setting adhesive. Strangely, some poly glues are now being marketted that have a shorter open time and faster cure because some wood workers have complained about the longer clamp time required for the original polys.

Some poly adhesives are certified to meet the ANSI Type 1 waterproof standard which means they can be used for totally submerged applications. However, for normal, non-submerged outdoor use, a type II adhesive will work as well.

While "gap filling" they fill gaps with foam which has no strength. The adhesive expands as it cures tending to force glued surfaces apart so tight clamping is required. They also require that the clamp pressure be maintained for much longer than most other adhesives. Many find poly adhesive unsuitable for laminations as the agressive expansion pushes surfaces apart.

It contains hazardous materials and should be used in a ventilated area and kept away from skin if you believe the Material Safety Data Sheet. If it gets on your hands, only time will will remove the stain.

Finally, they cost much more than other glues and IMO, do not offer many advantages over less expensive adhesives.

[Will Blick]

It seems every ww topic is beaten to death... books, videos, threads, tests, etc.

I have never seen a comprehensive resource for glues for ww's.... why is this?

There is a lot of good points raised in this thread, and the referenced thread. It seems a good book on this subject would provide the reference source we all could use. Howie, get started writing!

[Loren Hedahl]

I like Gorilla Glue just fine, except -- I buy a $6 bottle and get $.25 worth of gluing out of it. Give it a week after opening and the top 1/2 inch in the bottle is hard as glass.

Six months or so I noticed where Per had recommended PL polyurethane premium construction adhesive, so used most of a tube on a bathroom project. Stuck a drywall screw in the end to seal it off and chucked it on the shelf for a month or two.

Had another use for it in my camper. Figured I may as well just pick up a new tube 'cause the old one was surely set up by now. So I did.

Since the old one was still in my gun, I pulled out the screw and fresh glue came out!

PL is a little thicker, but that is great. It stays where you put it, rather than running all over the place.

I'm satisfied. Thanks Per.

[Tony Bilello]

I got a free sample of Gorilla Glue about 2 months ago. It is still sitting on a shelf. No particular reason, other than I haven't had a chance to experiment with it yet.
I'm glad I read this thread, it is very interesting. Right now I mostly use Titebond. It makes a joint stronger than the original wood. There is no need to be any stronger than that. I do use epoxy for boat work when a piece will be subject to a very wet environment on a regular basis. I use Titebond for the doors on boats. They get wet, but dont stay wet. For joinery on projects that will be constantly wet, I use epoxy and for some applications I use 3M 5200 Polyurethane for others where flexability is important. Each has it's own specific use.
Epoxy makes a great gap filling joint adhesive, but not too much of a gap. For a large gap, fillers must be used. There really is no substitute for a poorly fitted joint. A normal application of epoxy should be for a joint that just slides in place with moderate pressure and not heavy clamping pressure.
I used to use titebond or Elmers Carpenter Glue for cold molding (form bending laminations) for boat roofs and for combat shields for the SCA.
I have never had a problem with anything delaminating.
I guess sometime when I have nothing else to do, I will open up the Gorilla Glue and run some experiments on samples. I do what I consider fine woodworking and that is not the place to experiment with foam.

Tony B

[Howard Acheson]

>> I have never seen a comprehensive resource for glues for ww's.

The is/was a book called "The Glue Book" by William Tandy Young published by Taunton in the late 1990's. I believe it is out of print but you may be able to get it through Amazon. It is a pretty good book but may not cover PU adhesives.

The adhesives I use are a standard yellow adhesive like Elmer's or Titebond. If the item will be used outdoors or in a wet environment, I will use an ANSI Type II adhesive like Elmer's Exterior or Titebond II. For panel glue up where I do not want glueline creep or for bent laminate work I use a Urea Formaldehyde like DAP/Weldwood Plastic Resin. For laminating particleboard or MDF layers or plastic laminate to sheetgoods I use a solvent based contact cement. For buildeing or repairing chairs and some other applications, I use a slow set, two part epoxy. Hot melt adhesive gets used sometimes too. There is no one "all purpose" adhesive but the current crop of yellow PVA adhesives come pretty close for standard woodworking joints.