What's so special about Camelia Oil ?

[Doug Shepard]

I haven't had too much (but some) trouble with rust on plane or chisel blades since I try to keep them stored in plane socks (and even socks inside the original plane box) and chisels in rolls or drawers. But I keep thinking I should probably use something to occasionally wipe them down with. I use TopCoat on CI but dont much care for it on plane irons and I'm just as apt to spay on some Liquid Wrench if it's handy then wipe dry. I know LN seems to favor Camelia oil, but I've read a number of posts that dont agree. But I got to wondering - whether you're going to use it or not - what's the big difference between Camelia and other vegetable oils? Is there some property that makes it any better than wiping with Mazzola, Safflower Oil, or Olive Oil? Could I get the same effect just picking something up at the grocery store? Just curious if anyone knows why Camelia is recommended over other vegetable oils.

[philip marcou]

I haven't had too much (but some) trouble with rust on plane or chisel blades since I try to keep them stored in plane socks (and even socks inside the original plane box) and chisels in rolls or drawers. But I keep thinking I should probably use something to occasionally wipe them down with. I use TopCoat on CI but dont much care for it on plane irons and I'm just as apt to spay on some Liquid Wrench if it's handy then wipe dry. I know LN seems to favor Camelia oil, but I've read a number of posts that dont agree. But I got to wondering - whether you're going to use it or not - what's the big difference between Camelia and other vegetable oils? Is there some property that makes it any better than wiping with Mazzola, Safflower Oil, or Olive Oil? Could I get the same effect just picking something up at the grocery store? Just curious if anyone knows why Camelia is recommended over other vegetable oils.
Fire up Google with "camelia oil " and oil will be revealed...
The stuff used for anti -rust is a Japanese thing and it is not pure camelia oil- it is a blend with machine oil. It will not go rancid like some cooking oils you would get from the grocer.
There are hundreds of products out there-some work better than others-such as lanolin .

[Johnny Kleso]

It doesn't hurt wood so its good for blades on wood planes..........

Last metal planes I used it on formed some rust over the summer near a AC vents

[David Keller NC]

Camelia has slight "drying" properties - in other words, it will harden over a long period of exposure to air. This isn't all that big a deal if you're regularly using the tool, but may require removal with an apolar solvent like Naptha, Mineral Spirits or Laquer Thinner if the tool's been sitting for a long period.

And yeah, as far as rust protection, just about any oil will do that, because they're all hydrophobic (water-hating). Silicone oils are the extreme end of the hydrophobicity spectrum, but most woodworkers don't like to use them as they will "fish-eye" a film finish like laquer if they remain on the wood at finishing time.

I do use camelia, by the way - I used to use olive oil, but the kind I like to cook with is just as expensive as Camelia, and was making me hungry in the shop...

[Tristan Raymond]

I used to use olive oil, but the kind I like to cook with is just as expensive as Camelia, and was making me hungry in the shop...

Take some bread with you into the shop and dab the excess off of your tools. A little wine could be in order too... if you are staying away from power tools.

[Charlie Mastro]

I've used Camelia oil for the last 25 years and I've just never seen any reason to change. In 25 years I just ordered my second bottle 6 months ago so it does last a long time. I made an oiler by taking a hollowed out branch and rolling up an old sock and placing into the branch. Then I'm able to rub it on my saws or stick the chisel into it when I'm mortising. Just makes it easy to apply it to my tools. I was also taught to use olive oil to condition my japanese planes by heating it till it smokes then letting it cool. This keeps it from gettting rancid. Then I tape the ends of the dia forming a lip around it and pour the oil up to the top of the tape. Because the wood for dias is usually oak the oil flows through the pores and comes out in the opening for the blade. I then flip it over and do the same to the other end. I only do this when I have a new plane. Point being the planes I did this to 20 years ago still have no rancid smell so I'm sure it works.
So you could try olive oil as well just heat it up first.

[Steve Clardy]

I'm not proud of it.
Bought a bottle from LN about 2 years ago.
Coated all of my metal planes with it.

Pulled them down off the rack 6-8 months ago [the ones I don't hardly use] and noticed rust spots.
The camellia oil had dried to a very hard, sticky mess.
I re cleaned and de rusted the rust spots and went back to my usual method, one which Chris Schwartz uses. A rag kept in a container, soaked with a dab of motor oil, wd-40, 3-in-one-oil, etc.

So....:confused: I'm confused as to whether that's really the stuff to use, or maybe I'm not using my planes often enough and keeping them maintained often enough.

[philip marcou]

I've used Camelia oil for the last 25 years and I've just never seen any reason to change. In 25 years I just ordered my second bottle 6 months ago so it does last a long time. I made an oiler by taking a hollowed out branch and rolling up an old sock and placing into the branch. Then I'm able to rub it on my saws or stick the chisel into it when I'm mortising. Just makes it easy to apply it to my tools. I was also taught to use olive oil to condition my japanese planes by heating it till it smokes then letting it cool. This keeps it from gettting rancid. Then I tape the ends of the dia forming a lip around it and pour the oil up to the top of the tape. Because the wood for dias is usually oak the oil flows through the pores and comes out in the opening for the blade. I then flip it over and do the same to the other end. I only do this when I have a new plane. Point being the planes I did this to 20 years ago still have no rancid smell so I'm sure it works.
So you could try olive oil as well just heat it up first.

I will try that -olive oil is one of the good things in life, anyway. Here in New Zealand things can be quite damp for a lot of the time. If your recipe is as good as Lanolin oil then that is a major advancement. Must it be Spanish Virgin or Greek Virgin ? :)

[Charlie Mastro]

I will try that -olive oil is one of the good things in life, anyway. Here in New Zealand things can be quite damp for a lot of the time. If your recipe is as good as Lanolin oil then that is a major advancement. Must it be Spanish Virgin or Greek Virgin ? :)

I'm Italian, so...........:rolleyes:

[Pete Clifford]

The Schwarz says to use WD-40. In tests that PWW conducted, WD-40 worked as well (or better) than everything else that they tested. I haven't used camelia oil, but apparently some people don't like the oily feel that remains on the tool (imagine that after using an oil).

[Mike Henderson]

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_seed_oil)has an article on it. It's also known as "tea seed oil". If you search for tea seed oil you might find it cheaper than if you buy it as Camellia oil. It's used for cooking so it can't be that expensive.

Here's (http://www.earthy.com/Organic_Tea_Seed_Oil__500_ml_P1181.cfm)one.

Mike

[Tom Henderson2]

Hi Doug-

Interesting thread -- thanks for posting the question. I've often wondered the same thing.

Glad to hear that old fashioned WD-40 may be as good as the exhaulted Camelia oil, but without the sticky mess down the road.

Starrett sells a WD-40 equivalent that seems to be pretty good too.

-TH

[philip marcou]

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_seed_oil)has an article on it. It's also known as "tea seed oil". If you search for tea seed oil you might find it cheaper than if you buy it as Camellia oil. It's used for cooking so it can't be that expensive.

Here's (http://www.earthy.com/Organic_Tea_Seed_Oil__500_ml_P1181.cfm)one.

Mike

BUT: Camelia oil sold as an anti-rust agent is not pure tea seed oil-it is blended with mineral oil to achieve this......
SO: the question is "Is tea seed oil on its own effective as an anti rust agent?"
>>>> I suspect not, so I stick to locally tried and proven Extract of Sheep, but being ever keen to experiment will also look at modified Olive Oil<<<<
The WD 40 sold here is certainly not the same stuff I was familiar with on oil rigs in the North Sea, where they called it Rocket Fuel and it really was the universal cure -almost as fast as diesel and a four pound hammer. I suspect that WD 40 nowadays has been corrupted and is little better than kerosene with some sticky agent added, plus a smell.....

[Doug Shepard]

BUT: Camelia oil sold as an anti-rust agent is not pure tea seed oil-it is blended with mineral oil to achieve this......
SO: the question is "Is tea seed oil on its own effective as an anti rust agent?"
>>>> I suspect not, so I stick to locally tried and proven Extract of Sheep, but being ever keen to experiment will also look at modified Olive Oil<<<<
...

Extract of Sheep:eek: Do I even want to know what that is:(:D

Thanks for the feedback on the blend with mineral oil. When I tried googling a couple days ago I found tons of hits that were of the flavor "I wipe it on...", "I dont like it because...", or just Buy-it-here hits. I hadn't really found anything (yet) describing what it was or why it (or it's blend) was better than other vegetable oils (or their blends). So while this thread has a preponderance of posts seeming to recommend it, there's also a number saying Nyet. I know it's not very expensive, but I never seem to think about it when ordering something else and haven't wanted to pay the shipping charge for that alone. But I'm still wondering if I've been doing just as much good hitting blades with the occasional blast of Liquid Wrench and wiping.

[Mike Henderson]

To add a comment about mineral oil - it's generally available in drug stores in the laxative section. But if you can't find it, you can use baby oil which is just mineral oil with a small amount of perfume added.

Mike

[Frank Drew]

I had a damp issue in a former shop and found that isolation was the best rust preventive -- the tools that were inside drawers or other containers didn't rust, many of the others did, including most of the steel parts on my machines. Oddly, the cast iron surfaces, which I'd never waxed or oiled, fared the best in those conditions. If I had to do it again, though, I'd definitely coat every exposed surface with something, anything, whether wax or oil or Boeshield, or whatever.

[David Keller NC]

A comment about oils as a rust preventative. From a chemistry perspective, oils work to prevent rust on steel or iron surfaces by excluding water vapor, which is a necessary catalyst for the reaction of iron with oxygen in the air. All oils are fairly hydrophobic (water hating), but they do vary in this capacity.

Natural oils, like vegetable and/or animal derived oils and fats, will allow some water uptake from the humidity in the air, and this may be enough to rust a tool over a long period of time. Moreover, the oxidation of these oils to form acid compounds creates an environment that favors oxidation of iron.

Petrochemical oils (those refined from crude oil) are generally more hydrophobic and will allow less water uptake than vegetable/animal derived oils, and are more resistant to oxidation (rancidity).

Finally, entirely artificial oils, such as the silicone and fluorosilicone varieties, are extremely hydrophobic, and will give the best rust protection to tools, and they are not subject to oxidation at normal temperatures at all. However, they will interfere with some finishing materials in woodworking, such as laquer.

My take on it is that the oil you want to use varies with the purpose. In my case, I use camelia for day-to-day use, where the tool will have the oil refreshed within a week or so. For long-term storage (like a month or more), I use a fluro-silicone oil (a so-called "teflon" oil), and try to remember to clean it off of the tool before use. For extreme long-term storage, I use cosmoline, as it's not subject to oxidation except over decades, and it can be coated on the tool very thickly, which helps further resist the penetration of water vapor.

[Matt Z Wilson]

[quote=David Keller NC;939698]A comment about oils as a rust preventative. From a chemistry perspective, oils work to prevent rust on steel or iron surfaces by excluding water vapor, which is a necessary catalyst for the reaction of iron with oxygen in the air. form acid compounds creates an environment that favors oxidation of iron.

Actually, water is not required per se for the formation of iron oxide (rust). The formation of rust is a "redox" reaction where something is oxidized and something is reduced. Without getting too technical, non-distilled water is slightly acidic with a pH of about 6.8, it is the acidic nature of water that causes the rust. A catalytic reaction, would not change the water at all (the definition of a catalyst) but careful analysis of the reaction shows that water as H2O is consumed in the process, and therefore cannot be catalytic. Rust can be formed in the absence of water, oxygen however is required; storing any iron containing metal in a 100% oxygen environment that is totally dry will cause rust. Take note of metal that has been in a fire, there is no water there, but alot of oxygen and there is resultant rust.

[David Keller NC]

True enough, though what I'm referring to is a casual understanding of "catalyst" in that it greatly accelerates a reaction. I find this reference often in laymen's descriptions of chemical reactions, though what is being referred to often does not meet the academic definition of a catalyst - which is a material that is not consumed by the reaction and lowers the enthalpic barrier between the reactants and the products.

However, from the practical side of things in a shop, water vapor is generally not in stoichiometric ratio to the iron - it's available in unlimited quantities, and the rate of corrosion is essentially determined by the mass transfer rate of the water vapor to the iron surface and the temperature. What oil coatings do is lower the water concentration in contact with the iron, with various oils having higher or lower equilibrium water concentrations, and thus higher or lower rust inhibiting properties.

And while true that iron will slowly form rust in contact with oxygen and in the absence of water, that reaction is slow enough at ordinary temperatures that we can ignore it for the purposes of inhibiting rust on tools.

For those interested here's a link to a description of the electrolytic reactions that go on in forming rust on iron. It's a complex topic - this page simplifies it quite a bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust

[Michael Fross]

I've used 3 in 1 oil for the last few years. Have not noticed any stickiness. I also might be one of those odd fellows that kinda likes the smell....

I have an oil rag that I brush on my tools after use. When a project is completed, I'll wax them.

However, I've lately starting to leave the wax on the tools heavy and unpolished, and then just polish them up prior to use.

Seems to work in Chicago's sticky summers.....

Michael

[Doug Shepard]

Well, on a tip from Bob Zajicek I started checking into Ballistol
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ballistol&start=0&sa=N
and was intrigued enough to place an order for some.

[Larry Heflin]

Probably a dumb question, but here goes. So why does the oil from fingerprints do harm to metal instead of protect it?

[Randy Klein]

Probably a dumb question, but here goes. So why does the oil from fingerprints do harm to metal instead of protect it?

I think it's more the salt in the sweat that accompanies the oils. Not sure though.

[Matt Z Wilson]

Human sweat is a surprisingly strong acid. The salt itself is corrosive, but I think it's mainly the acidity.

[Jacob Reverb]

I just use a solution of drain oil and kero in a squirt can, and I keep a rag in a can saturated with the stuff. I use this to wipe machine tables, rules, tools, etc. when not using them. Then when I go to use the tool or machine, I just wipe it off first. Ain't pretty and it ain't zen, but it works.

[Alfred Cole]

I use lanolin for four reasons

One-- As an old shearer here in Oz pointed out, you never see rust on anything in a shearing shed.

Two --Real lanolin grease sets hard. Don't go for the high tech additive type lanolin

Three-- Yer know fellas, it keeps your hands oh so soft

Four -- I've never seen a rusty sheep.

Jerry

[David Keller NC]

"So why does the oil from fingerprints do harm to metal instead of protect it?"

Actually, both the salts and the fatty acids in skin oil will accelerate the oxidation reaction on iron. If you think about it, the composition of human skin oil allows a fair amount of water to be dissolved in it. Otherwise, your skin would not stay moist. Interestingly enough, I suppose, "moisturizers" sold at the drugstore could be classed as oils, but they also contain a lot of fatty acids and fatty acid esters that allow a good deal of water to be dissolved in it.

[Tyler Starter]

Has anyone considered just plain ole Mineral Oil?

... as from the laxative dept. in the markets... :)

[Ben Rafael]

Has anyone considered just plain ole Mineral Oil?

... as from the laxative dept. in the markets... :)

No. I have a high fiber diet.

I keep my planes in plane socks, my spokeshave in a leather case and I spray and wipe my chisels and saws with wd-40 then wipe after use. I have no rust problems on these tools and the wd-40 does not leave any residue that I notice. Do whatever works for you.

[Matt Z Wilson]

"So why does the oil from fingerprints do harm to metal instead of protect it?"

Actually, both the salts and the fatty acids in skin oil will accelerate the oxidation reaction on iron. If you think about it, the composition of human skin oil allows a fair amount of water to be dissolved in it. Otherwise, your skin would not stay moist. Interestingly enough, I suppose, "moisturizers" sold at the drugstore could be classed as oils, but they also contain a lot of fatty acids and fatty acid esters that allow a good deal of water to be dissolved in it.

The perceived "moisture" of skin is not actually water at all. The oil inherent in skin is what keeps skin soft and pliable. The water level isn't a factor. Even severely dehydrated people can have soft and "moisturized" skin. Fats are oils and water is not soluble in any meaningful quantity in oil. It's the acid (as fatty acids or commonly known simply as "fat"), not the water.

[Stan Suther]

I was wondering when someone would mention wax. For years, I've used common Johnson's floor wax for all my hand tools and cast iron. I won't say it would protect for multiple years, but I've gotten good results for extended periods. Something about using oil on tools just bothers me. Don't like it on my hands or on wood (until I'm finishing), although I guess there's a petroleum component in it, too.

[David Keller NC]

Matt - that's incorrect. Your skin has a very, very large water content. The medical diagnosis of "dehydration" has to do with your circulatory system, and it takes a very small drop in your body's overall moisture content expressed as a percentage to lead to major organ failure and death.

And yes, fatty acids are quite hygroscopic, as are some of the unsaturated oils that make up some of the skin oil components. In fact, you can leave a container of solid, flaked oleic acid (one of the fatty acids - all will behave similarly) on the lab bench and it will be soaking wet by morning (and yes, that was an unfortunate waste of some very pure oleic acid in graduate school - I wasn't happy about that).

[Matt Z Wilson]

Matt - that's incorrect. Your skin has a very, very large water content. The medical diagnosis of "dehydration" has to do with your circulatory system, and it takes a very small drop in your body's overall moisture content expressed as a percentage to lead to major organ failure and death.

And yes, fatty acids are quite hygroscopic, as are some of the unsaturated oils that make up some of the skin oil components. In fact, you can leave a container of solid, flaked oleic acid (one of the fatty acids - all will behave similarly) on the lab bench and it will be soaking wet by morning (and yes, that was an unfortunate waste of some very pure oleic acid in graduate school - I wasn't happy about that).

If you will refer to my post, I did not dispute your claim that skin contains water. The point is not whether skin contains water, but the cause of rust on tool steel. My point is that skin oil and sweat is acidic and causes the oxidation of iron to iron oxide.

Since you brought it up, I'm quite familiar with the definitions of dehydration and multi-organ system failure. The body can withstand an acute loss of 2L of intravascular volume and survive (that's 40%) and chronic losses of up to approximately 25% of the total body water content (which in an average sized adult is 42L) and survive. I feel as though your definitions of large and small need adjusting. Human skin does not contain nearly the amount of free water you believe it to.

Lastly, if you'll recall the structure of oleic acid, it is a long chain unsaturated hydrocarbon with a carboxyl group at the end. The carboxyl group is hydrophillic and the carbon chain hydrophobic, since we know molecules to move in three dimensions, it is obvious that by morning the oleic acid you had left on the bench had transformed into a ball of hyrdophobic core and hydrophillic shell (thanks to london dispersion forces or "Van Der Waals")and thus become attractive to water. I believe I learned that to be the mode of action of a detergent or "soap".

[Steve Clardy]

Whizzzz........


Boy that one whizzed by my head and nothing absorbed. :confused::eek::D:D:D

[Steve Clardy]

Whizzzz........


Boy that one whizzed by my head and nothing absorbed. :confused::eek::D:D:D

[David Keller NC]

"Since you brought it up, I'm quite familiar with the definitions of dehydration and multi-organ system failure. The body can withstand an acute loss of 2L of intravascular volume and survive (that's 40%) and chronic losses of up to approximately 25% of the total body water content (which in an average sized adult is 42L) and survive. I feel as though your definitions of large and small need adjusting. Human skin does not contain nearly the amount of free water you believe it to."

I was looking at this from the standpoint of the water content (free and otherwise) in the human body as a percentage of total weight. As I'm sure you're aware, 2 L is a very small fraction of an adult's weight. I'm not a medical doctor, so I will defer to your statement about losing 25% of total water and surviving. My impression from various sources is that 10% of total water loss is more than sufficient to cause coma and death.

Lastly, if you'll recall the structure of oleic acid, it is a long chain unsaturated hydrocarbon with a carboxyl group at the end. The carboxyl group is hydrophillic and the carbon chain hydrophobic, since we know molecules to move in three dimensions, it is obvious that by morning the oleic acid you had left on the bench had transformed into a ball of hyrdophobic core and hydrophillic shell (thanks to london dispersion forces or "Van Der Waals")and thus become attractive to water. I believe I learned that to be the mode of action of a detergent or "soap".

Indeed - this is why I noted that substantial water content is possible in so-called "skin oil", and for that matter, in various hand lotions. As I presume you're aware, "skin oil" is complex misture of glycerides, fatty acids, unsaturated oils, and other complex biochemical components. And it is capable and does carry a substantial amount of bound water.

And yes, oleic acid is a surfactant with a hydrophobic carboxylic acid "head" and a saturated alkyl tail. And it is hygroscopic as a result - hygroscopic is a term applied to the whole of the material, regardless of the mechanism for its adsorption. In fact, the formation of micelles is an integral part of the ability of skin oil constituent's ability to carry moisture.

Regardless of the minutiae of the details, the point remains that "oil" is not "oil" in the sense that different compounds we typically think of as oils have very different equilibrium moisture contents and as a result, very different mass transfer coefficients of moisture from the air to the iron surface underneath. Certain synthetics (notably fluro-silicone formulations) have an almost zero equilibrium moisture content. Many natural oils have an appreciable ability for moisture uptake.

'Nuff said - we're boring the rest of the forum members. :D

[Jacob Reverb]

One of you guys ought to spring for a room... http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/forum/fffmain/smilies/f-hug.gif

[Marcus Ward]

Don't use mineral oil, it sucks. I practice Iaido (Japanese art of sword draw and cut) and when I got my first iaito (katana) I used mineral oil to keep it from rusting (a lot of iaidoka use aluminum blades but I don't like them so mine are real steel - and real sharp). I had it in the car for a couple of hours and it rusted. I kid you not, I had surface rust all over it. The only thing I can think of is that the summer heat in the car caused the moisture in the saya (sheath) to come out of the wood inside and condense on the blade, or something. Either way, the mineral oil didn't protect it at all. I use CLP on my swords now. It's a gun oil. Never had a problem with them using CLP. I wouldn't use CLP on a hand tool, I use johnson's paste wax and / or Topsaver to protect mine. I had a couple of small problems this summer in an incredibly humid garage but otherwise wax has been great. And it makes those planes glide.

[Lucas Bittick]

For long-term storage, you can do what the military does-- vacuum pack it. Very effective. I wouldn't run out and buy a Tilia machine just for that purpose, but if you like to cook, you can certainly justify "dual use"... ;)