The age old question on what sharpening system (Sub $250)

[Zahid Naqvi]

After dabbling in ww'ing for several years and having finally realized that I will probably never have the space or the money to acquire high-end machines (I consider a $1200-$1500 table saw high end), hence limiting my productivity. Probably more driven by the fact that my wife has given up on me producing anything useful for use around the house in a decent time frame :rolleyes:

Any way! I am going powerless (except for a few select powertools, i.e. the bandsaw) and approaching this hobby purely as a hobby, no expectations of producing anything domestically useable, if I do that is a bonus. Which brings me to the the question I wanted to ask about sharpening. What should I use?

I have been a user of the Scary Sharp system for the last several years, have been reasonably satisfied with it. But now that I have more space in my half of the garage I want to setup a permanent sharpening station. Here are my expectations and I will appreciate if the experienced neanderthals can chime in with their advice.

1. Must be convenient to use, i.e. should not require prep time, such that if I am in the middle of planing a board and feel that the plane iron requires a quick touch-up I should be able to walk up to the sharpening station and get the honing done in 1-2 mins and get back to work.

2. Must not require years of practice to get skilled. I like the idea of freehand sharpening, and I am willing to give it a shot, but I am only a weekend warrior and I am affraid I don't spend enough time in the shop to retain the muscle memory that comes with the repetitive motion of freehand sharpening.

3. No can do the $600+ Tormek, don't have that kind of money.

4. I want to spend time working on wood and not sharpening or taking care of sharpening equipment. So it must be low maintenance. I do not have a water source in the garage, so mess has to be cleanable by paper towels.

5. I like old iron, so every now and then I acquire old planes and chisels. As you know flattening old iron requires a lot of elbow grease, so speed is also important, although to a lesser degree.

I have looked at the WorkSharp system and it looks very attractive to me. Perhaps because I am already used to sandpaper and angle jigs for honing. But I have read mixed reviews about its ability to handle wide blades, i.e. 1.5" plane irons. I just want to pick something and stick with it.

So what say you!

[Doug Shepard]

For the 2"+ stuff that the Worksharp cant handle, I'm back on the glass with sandpaper and my LV MKII jig. But just for chisels and smaller plane irons that WS3000 is a huge timesaver and I think the results are probably 95% as good as what I'd get by hand. I'm not too keen on trying anything by hand on top of the wheel without a jig of some sort though. I just dont think I can hold tools as accurately as the WS can sand you an unintended angle. I've read a few blurbs that say they're working on a jig for over top. That might make the wider blades or other tools earier but we'll have to see.

[Bob Noles]

Zahid......

You like myself are the perfect fit for the Worksharp 3000. They also now have the accessory available at Rockler that allows blades up to 3 inches. Cost is $69.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Zahid

I am in the process of rebuilding my workshop. I promised myself a dedicated sharpening area and, with essentially a blank canvass, I ended up with this ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/Sharpeningstation2.jpg

The plumbing has yet to be completed, as has a set of doors for the cabinet.

The aim is to have a grinding area, and then use the draining board for the waterstones. Since the following picture was taken I have made up a board to hold the waterstones ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/Sharpeningstation1.jpg

With grinding, I do like the Tormek since it will safely create a hollow grind right up to the edge of the blade. This means that one can hone a microbevel , which is a speedy affair.

However, do not think that a Tormek is the only way to go. It is fine for 01 steel, but slower on A2, and slow overall. So I recently upgraded my 6" high speed grinder for a 8" half speed grinder (1400 rpm). These effectively run at the same speed, so if you don't want to lash out on the half-speed, get a 6" grinder. I have added a 46 grit Norton 3X wheel, and I am very impressed how cool it grinds.

No matter what machine you buy, they will never replace honing media for that final, ultimate edge. Machines are only the initial preparation. My waterstones and strops are what I spend most time on.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Doug Shepard]

Zahid......

You like myself are the perfect fit for the Worksharp 3000. They also now have the accessory available at Rockler that allows blades up to 3 inches. Cost is $69.

Ooh - the top jig is finally out!. Just placed an order but it says they're out of stock for a few weeks. Thanks

[Mike Henderson]

I've tried many systems and am presently using Shapton stones. But several people have posted here about using diamond plates (like the DMT) and I'm now leaning in that direction. A diamond plate is flat and stays flat and it last a long time. Add to that an LV MKII honing guide and you can put any edge you want on a chisel or plane blade.

I'd still keep my 8000 Shapton for final honing and flatten it on one of the diamond plates.

I have a plastic mat which I put down and use a spray bottle for wetting the stones. I use paper towels for cleanup. If you want, a bucket could be used for washing the stones/diamond plates off.

Mike

[The biggest time consumer is flattening the back of a plane blade and you have to do that on something flat. While still slow, a diamond plate is the fastest thing I've found to do that task.]

[David Keller NC]

Zahid -

Given your parameters, I'd suggest the following:

Touching up a plane iron quickly - there's no better way to do this than a leather strop glued down to a flat board. Mine's a mahogany scrap, but anything will do, and it doesn't have to be absolutely flat. You want a piece of thick leather that's preferably about 3" wide. You can often get such scraps at a Tandy leather store, and some fabric stores. Get the honing compound as a solid block from Lee Valley, Woodcraft, or the store of your preference. Using a strop is WAY faster than honing an iron on a whetstone - there is no oil or water to clean up, and you don't even have to take the chipbreaker off.

Honing - given that you've no water source and want low maintenance, I'd go with oil stones. You can purchase new ones (a washita, a surgical black, and a translucent will do - you can add intermediate grits later), or sometimes get some really nice stones at a flea market or swap meet for considerably less $$$. You'll probably have to flatten them once, but that goes quick on 220 wet/dry sandpaper. If you purchase new ones, be prepared to spend about $300, but that investment will last your lifetime.

Jigs - I've a number of jigs that I aquired over the years, but after taking up carving I taught myself to do it freehand and don't use any jigs - they're just too much of a PITA. However, If I were to recommend one, I'd choose the Veritas Mk II with the accessory camber roller. This jig works with just about any plane iron of common widths, though it's harder to use with narrow chisels than a side-clamp Eclipse jig.

Grinding - You can do this passably well on sandpaper or a course India stone, but having an inexpensive 6" grinder is a heck of a lot faster, and almost a necessity if you intend to get into turning.

The worksharp is indeed a cool tool, but for someone on a tight budget, I'd forgo that and use the cash to buy more handplanes, saws, chisels, etc...

[Zahid Naqvi]

Derek, I have access to a Tormek (thanks to the woodworking Yoda of central Arkansas Dennis Peacock) for when I need any grinding done. But that is not something one does on a regular basis. But I was thinking along the lines of honing and flattening. I know that worksharp comes with a leather honing wheel, that combined with some high grit sandpaper should prove sufficient. At least that's what I am thinking. If I have to supplement the WS with honing stones and a strop, I will probably just go in the direction of stones and deal with the learning curve. My understanding was that the WS can deliver the final edge (honing and all) if you have the appropriate abbrasives and the honing leather wheel.

[Randy Klein]

2. Must not require years of practice to get skilled. I like the idea of freehand sharpening, and I am willing to give it a shot, but I am only a weekend warrior and I am affraid I don't spend enough time in the shop to retain the muscle memory that comes with the repetitive motion of freehand sharpening.

I'm only a weekend warrior as well, but freehand sharpening is easy to learn and doesn't take years of practice.

Just hollow grind the bevel and it's cake after that; even on your first try. You should get Joel's video on it; it's pretty straight forward.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Zahid

I have not even seen a WS in person, nevermind used one. However my understanding is that it works to preset cutting angles, and that these only go to 35 degrees (or there abouts).

That so, it would be limited for anyone wanting to hone blades for BU planes. And I am ignoring the 2" width limitation - assuming that there is a modification on the market now that takes it wider.

Half the planes I use are BD, and these mostly run bevels of 30 degrees. But the BU planes go to 50 degrees. So that will not do.

In practice, for the BU plane blades, one really only needs a primary bevel of 25 degrees and then a secondary bevel gets honed on a jig. So the WS still is not a do-it-all tool. You will need a stone or two and a hining guide if you use BU planes.

OK, so all you want to do is use BD planes. Can you camber a plane blade on the WS? As far as I know you cannot do so. And if this is so, this you are back to square one - you will need to add a camber on stones. In other words, you need more than just a strop.

I think that the WS sound fine for chisels, but it would be an expensive tool just to use for chisels.

If I was putting together a system on a limited budget, it would include a 6" grinder with 46 grit 3X wheel (or white wheel if that was too pricy), and at least two stones, a 1000 Norton (to smooth off the grinders edge, and start a secondary bevel), and a 8000 Norton (to polish the edge). I would use a leather strop with green rouge to freshen the edge between honings (as I do).

Add the LV Honing Guide Mk II if you are using BU blades. It is useful anyway for narrow blades. Otherwise a hollow grind facilitates freehand sharpening very well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joe Cunningham]

I have oil stones and am considering moving to japanese water stones.

From what I can tell watching David Charlesworth's videos, once he has his chisels and planes setup, re-honing takes little time. Just a small water sprayer, rub the nagura stone on the 8000 grit water stone, a few passes (he does use a jig), and it is razor sharp again.

I am doing mostly hand tools for the same reasons as you--low initial investment, it is a fun (quiet) hobby, and anything useful I make is a bonus. I have found the oil stones do work well, but they seem to take quite some time. Maybe the water stones won't be that big an improvement, I don't know, but all I've seen and heard is they sharpen very quickly.

I have the Veritas MkII jig and it is quick to setup.

His DVDs are great learning tools for me. There is also a reprint of an article of his in the FWW hand tools special edition, all about sharpening chisels.

[David Keller NC]

"My understanding was that the WS can deliver the final edge (honing and all) if you have the appropriate abbrasives and the honing leather wheel."

Based on my experience with carving tools and power honing wheels on the Tormek, I wouldn't recommend going this way. With skill, power strops are very fast, but they're just as fast at rounding over an edge if you're not careful. On a flat leather strop, it takes between 2 and 4 strokes by hand on the bevel and 1-3 strokes on the back to return the edge to razor sharp. Doesn't mean you can't round an edge on a manual leather strop, but things happen a lot slower than on a power system.

[Michael Faurot]

A few months back a friend gave me an old garbage disposal after he upgraded up a new one with more horse power. I tore down the old disposal, got rid of the top part until I was left with just a 1/2 HP motor oriented vertically. I then extended what was a fairly stubby shaft on the motor so I could mount a wheel to it. I made the wheel out of some scrap counter top material and then glued some leather to it. Here's the result, what I've been calling a garb-o-strop. :)

97922

I find myself using this all the time now. After I get my initial bevel done with diamond stones, I use the garb-o-strop to keep my plane blades and chisels honed. It does the job fast, polishes the bevel to a mirror shine and makes things razor sharp. Having the wheel oriented horizontally also makes it possible to polish and hone the backs of my plane blades and chisels. It's also a simple matter to deal with wider plane blades, by just increasing the diameter of the wheel. For smaller blades and chisels, I can work the inside of the wheel when I want to go slower, or move to the outside when I want to go faster.

The other day I was cutting some dovetails for a box. When I got to removing the waste with a chisel, I chop out one and then touch up the chisel on the garb-o-strop for about about 10-20 seconds. Chop out another dovetail, touch-up for 10-20 seconds, etc.

This may not be the most neaderthal way of honing/stroping--but it is fast and easy.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Mike, I've thought about the diamond stones myself. If I go the freehand route I will probably go in that direction.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Michael, I have something similar for my drill press. Despite having used it for a few months I still end up rounding some edges if I am not extra careful. As David said things happen very fast on a powered strop.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Ok Derek, you've got my attention. Let's say I am willing to spend $200 to get started, with an understanding that I may have to add a few more items at a later time if needed.

So I get a slow speed grinder for about 100, a 1000 diamond or Norton stone, and an 8000 stone. I can make my own strop. I know I can handle a hollow ground Hock blade, chisels are not a problem either, are you guys suggesting a free handing a standard Stanley plane blade (hollow ground) will not require a long learning curve.

All I need now is a coupon for some $s off on a purchase :cool:

[Tim Thomas]

Zahid, I recently got a chance to use the Worksharp at my local woodworker's guild meeting. I had never previously used one before, although I have seen it, heard about it, etc. The nice gentleman running the demo allowed me to sharpen one of my cheapo chisels on it. The chisel had never before been flattened or sharpened at all. It was basically a "beater" chisel that I bought at Big Lots just to use for odd jobs where I didn't want to use a "nice" chisel. In just a few minutes I was able to flatten the back and sharpen the chisel to an edge that was very sharp and makes nice curly pine shavings. And that chisel isn't even made out of good quality steel.

I found the Worksharp to be very easy to use for chisel sharpening. The jig works well to help you keep the alignment correct so you get a good bevel, flat back, and straight edge. It also felt very safe. I felt a lot more comfortable using it than I am when I turn on a bench grinder. I didn't have a chance to sharpen a plane blade on it so I can't speak from experience on that, but I think it will do up to a 2 inch blade with just the standard setup. The unit comes with two glass wheels, but the demonstrator had purchased two more. He did this so that he would have 4 wheels with allows him to have 8 grits mounted and ready to go. He was using 80, 120, 220, 320, 600, 1000, 2000, 4000. He said that after you flatten the back and establish the bevel, you shouldn't need to use the 4 coarse grits anymore and could do touch ups with just the super fine grits.

In my own shop, the only attempt I have made at sharpening is using the scary sharp method, with sandpaper on glass plates and a lot of elbow grease. I think the Worksharp gave me better results and in a fraction of the time it took me to do my first chisel using scary sharp. I was very pleased with the quality of the Worksharp machine and with the results it produced. For a novice like myself, or for the hobbiest who just wants to get their stuff workably sharp in a hurry I think the Worksharp is a good machine. It is also small, relatively quiet and easily portable, which makes it great for a small shop.

Right now I don't have the dough to fork over for the Worksharp, and I don't use a lot of handtools so it is hard to justify. BUT, after using one it is definitely on my wish list and will probably be the next power tool I purchase. If you have a Woodcraft nearby you may want to stop in and see if they will do a demo for you. I think if you get a chance to put your hands on one and sharpen a chisel that you will be sold on it.

[Joe Vincent]

I'm pretty new to the sharpening scene myself, but my reaction is that the Worksharp 3000 would work well for you in combination with Scary Sharp (the latter for back bevels and micro bevels) and also stropping to touch up edges. The issue with the WorkSharp would be the angle limitation Derek described. But it would do well with a lot of other stuff with the new wide blade attachment. And will flatten backs. If the bevel angle thing is an issue for you, and/or you prefer hollow grinds on chisels, maybe you could still find a cheap bench grinder used. A good overall setup it would seem to me.

[Zahid Naqvi]

The thing is if I have to use strops and stones to supplement the worksharp, it doesn't add as much value in terms of saving time. I can probably get a much cheaper setup if I get a bench grinder and a set of bench stones plus a leather strop.
If I go with a WS it must be a complete system. I am starting to think it is not. Most people who have used it for a longer period suggest that a strop or an alternate honing setup will be required.

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Zahid,

As I've worked more with hand tools, I've come to realize that "sharpening" really is two separate tasks. The first task is taking a new or used chisel (or plane blade, or whatever, but I'll use chisels for now, because I've had chisels on the brain), and getting it into useable shape. This requires flattening the back, setting the bevel angle to what you want, and sharpening it up. There are tons of ways to do this, but I've found that the most laborious task is flattening the back. The fastest way I've found to get the back into shape is coarse sandpaper on a piece of granite, if I remember not to use up every last bit of sandpaper. Like the turners say, use sandpaper like someone else was buying it for you. I've tried a coarse diamond stone, but it is still a slow process.

For setting the bevel angle, you'll need some sort of jig to initially set the angle that you want. There are many methods to do this. Among the powered methods I've tried include the Tormek, and a slow speed grinder. On the manual side you can get the LV honing guide, or the cheap $12 honing guide from Woodcraft, and use that with the aforementioned coarse sandpaper on a piece of granite.

Then comes honing the edge, and again, all the methods work: Scary Sharp, diamond stones, waterstones, oilstones, leather strop. I like waterstones, but they all will work.

The second job of sharpening is keeping your tool sharp. For this, I have a 8000 grit waterstone that I keep out on the bench at all times. Why? Because if I have to go to the trouble of getting it out, I'll never hone the tool as I use it. If it's available, it gets used, and until I hone the tool past where I've flattened the back, or if I get a nick, I won't have to go through the first task. I really have learned that the more you sharpen, the less you sharpen, because all you'll need to do is touch up your tool on that fine grit sharpening device. But you won't be honing frequently if it's inconvenient to do so.

You don't need to use an 8000 grit waterstone for this. 2000 grit sandpaper, a leather strop charged with honing compound, a fine grit oilstone -- they all work. The key is to use it and keep it available.

With your $200 budget, I might suggest this setup:

Slow speed grinder - $100 (Woodcraft)
Granite plate or piece of glass (a la Scary Sharp)
Coarse (80-120 grit) sandpaper
1000 grit Shapton waterstone - $55 (from the Japan Woodworker)
8000 grit Shapton waterstone - $100 (from the Japan Woodworker)

You can use the sandpaper on glass to flatten the waterstones.

Why the Shaptons? Because they only require spraying the top surface with water to use. You don't have to soak these waterstones, and so you can use them instantly, and there's less mess. Again, there's that convenience factor.

Now, this takes you above your $200 budget by $55, but Woodcraft has sales, so you can save some money there if you are patient, and you can get the 5000 grit Shapton instead, which will save you $20. If you've been doing the Scary Sharp thing, you already have sandpaper and a piece of glass. Or, you can skip the grinder and get a honing guide instead, which will save a lot of money but will cost you some time instead. However, using a grinder to put a hollow in the bevel does make freehand honing incredibly easy.

But really the key is to keep a honing device (waterstone, oilstone, 2000 grit sandpaper, leather strop) accessible and ready to go. You won't get any more convenient than that, and your choice of honing device becomes less important.

Caveat: I don't use microbevels. If you're hollow grinding the bevel, you won't need it. I actually don't really do hollow grinding, since I use Japanese chisels, but what I said about hollow grinding still is true.

[Mike Henderson]

To add to what Wilbur said, you can find the Shapton 1000 on eBay for $45 + $2 shipping and the 8000 for $90 with $2 shipping which will save you a few dollars since you'll have to pay shipping from the Japan Woodworker, also.

Search on "shapton" and look for some "Buy it Now" listings.

Mike

[Randy Klein]

are you guys suggesting a free handing a standard Stanley plane blade (hollow ground) will not require a long learning curve.

Correct. I was a jig-meister sharpener. Decided to give free hand honing a try based on Joel's video. My LN plane irons and chisels were cake. So I tried a heavily cambered stanley plane iron. It was just as easy.

So think of all the money you'll save not buying those jigs plus all the time saved not having to jig-it-up for a quick touchup.

[Mike Henderson]

Correct. I was a jig-meister sharpener. Decided to give free hand honing a try based on Joel's video. My LN plane irons and chisels were cake. So I tried a heavily cambered stanley plane iron. It was just as easy.

So think of all the money you'll save not buying those jigs plus all the time saved not having to jig-it-up for a quick touchup.
For me, for plane blades, I have to use a honing jig. The problem (for me) is to get the right camber across the blade.

What I do is use a honing guide because that gives me a straight across edge. I check it with an engineer's square to get it pretty close to perpendicular to the sides. Then, when I'm just finishing the blade on the 8000 stone, I'll put excess pressure on one side and make a couple of passes on the stone. Then excess pressure on the other side and a couple of passes on the stone. This gives me a slightly cambered blade for a smoother.

If I try to do it by hand, I can't get a really straight edge first - my blade comes out cambered, and cambered too much.

I can do chisels by hand, no problem. But I can't do plane blades accurately by hand.

For heavily cambered blades, like on a scrub plane, I do those by hand because the camber is not critical - a little more or less doesn't matter.

Mike

[Zahid Naqvi]

Wilbur, I like how you broke up the sharpening options based on usage. The slow speed grinder is a done deal so it is out of discussion.

So what is the best option for flattening the backs of chisels and plane blades? DMT/shapton/norton/king

For honing I don't suppose they make a DMT that goes that fine, so I guess the choice is between shapton/norton/king.

These followed by a strop.

So technically I just need a decision on the flattening and honing stones. I'd like to find out the stones that cut the fastest and which ones last the longest. I got everything else covered. I already have the sandpaper and granite plate to use for flattening the stones. I also have a strop I use for touch up. And yes I also have a honing guide (can't do SS without one)

I think by the end of this thread we will have a good FAQ type article for a sub $200 sharpening solution.

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Zahid,

Just to clarify, is your $200 sharpening budget just for bench stones? Or is that including the grinder and the SS equipment?

Either way, I'd vote for the Shaptons. They stay flat for a very long time, definitely longer than the Nortons or Kings. Even better, unlike the other waterstone brands you mentioned, you don't need to soak Shaptons to get them to work. I keep a large spray bottle on my sharpening table and spray the top of the stone and that's all I need to get things going. What water does run off gets collected by a wood box that also serves as a stand for the stone.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2173/2212962869_397978f95b.jpg

I don't even empty the water that runs off into the box. The amount of water I have to use is small enough that it evaporates quickly.

I also have a bit of an out of the box suggestion for bench stones, but it takes a bit of a leap of faith for this one. Get a pair of natural Japanese waterstones. Some of these can be exceedingly expensive, but there are some good inexpensive ones out there. The first natural Japanese waterstone would be an aoto, which is about equivalent to a 2000 grit waterstone, and can be gotten for about $35-60, depending on size. The second would be a fine grit natural Japanese waterstone, which will be in the 8000 grit range. These are the waterstones that can be really pricey, but they also can be found in the $85-100 range for the smaller sizes.

The thing I like about the natural Japanese waterstones, and this is going to be hard to describe in words, is the feel you get while sharpening. The best analogy that I can think of is like the difference between using a old tuned up Bailey plane, and a Lie-Nielsen. Both planes will give you excellent results, but the Lie-Nielsen just seems smoother to me. Likewise, the natural Japanese waterstones feel smoother. But they won't be as available as the Shaptons, and unless you actually try one, I can understand why it might be difficult to take the plunge.

Either way, with the Shaptons or the natural Japanese waterstones, I don't think you'll need the leather strop.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Wilbur the $200 is just a number I picked, I don't have such a strict budget. I need to expand my carving tools and the more money I have left over from sharpening the more I have to spend on carving chisels.

Let's say $100 for the bench grinder and $150 for stones, and Shaptons have lots of fans. What grits do I need coming right off the grinder? going all the way to 8k as the final polishing grit. I guess I can stick with Norton 3X sandpaper for flattening backs since that is a one time activity per tool.

[James K Peterson]

I've been using DMT diamond plates from course on up to the new XXfine (3 micron) plate. I've been pretty happy with the sharpness (better than my previous attemps with the oilstones). But I have been thinking of trying to use a Sharpton 8000 or Norton 8000 waterstone for the final honing. If you were close I can let you try out the DMT's to see if you like this method. I like it for the ease of use (no worries about flatness) and reasonable cost, but you may be able to get sharper edges with waterstones.

I'm near Savannah, GA if you want to try them.
Thanks
James

[Joel Goodman]

Here's what I'm presently using:
Coarse DMT ($45)
Extra Fine DMT ($45)
8000K Norton Waterstone ($75)
Norton prep stone ($12)
LV Honing guide ($65) or get an Elipse for $15

I use the Coarse DMT (or sandpaper on a flat surface) for rough sharpening to establish or reestablish a bevel then the EF DMT for the micro bevel followed by the 8000 for final honing on the micro bevel. For flattening the waterstone either the Coarse DMT or sandpaper on a flat surface. At this point I'm still using a honing guide as I don't have a grinder. I have the steel plate DMTs -- I not sure that the double sided DMT isn't cheaper and in any case it's a lot lighter.
I found the EF (1200) DMT a lot more useful than a 1000 waterstone.
In any case in a minimum of time plane irons and chisels are razor sharp. If I were doing it again I would look at the Shapton 8000 as an alternative. I plan on added leather on a board and honing compound soon so as to have a less messy way to touch up while working.

[Daniel Heine]

My suggestion would be the grizzly sharpener:

http://grizzly.com/products/10-Wet-Grinder-Kit/T10010

It sells for $169.99, and is compatible with all Tormek/Jet jigs. I have one that I use for my carving and turning tools, and it is fantastic. I am now able to keep my tools razor sharp a lot easier.

I read a recent article- can't remember which magazine, but they tested the Tormek, Jet and Grizzly sharpeners. Their results: #1 Tormek #2 Grizzly #3 Jet!!!

Good Luck,
Dan

[Zahid Naqvi]

Joel, thanks for your advice. I have been thinking about the DMTs because of the ease of use (no lubricant needed) and cost. But I was following a thread on woodnet on the same subject and some people seemed to think that the DMTs cut slower than a comparative Shapton.
If anyone who has used both can chime in with a comparison that would be quite helpful. I'd rather use the DMT at lower grits than waterstones, precisely because they do not require flattening and other regular maintenance.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Dan, my problem with all "wet grinders" is that at the end they are still grinders that require a complete honing follow up. They are great for turning tools, but don't add much value when it comes to plane irons and chisels etc.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Zahid

If you are accepting that a hollow grind is the way to go, then a waterstone based system is ...

half-speed bench grinder with 46 grit 3X wheel

1000 and 8000 Shaptons

Optional: honing guide - my recommendation is still the LV Mk II.

Strop (for maintaining the edge): get the Horse Butt from TFWW. It is in a different class.

Veritas green rouge for the strop.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Zahid Naqvi]

Yup, the hollow grind is where I am headed, I was initially trying to avoid it because of the fear that freehanding has a long learning surve. This has since been alleviated. Your list is basically it I think, I already have a honing guide so I will stick with it.
For the benefit of anyone who might be following this thread or if/when this comes up in a search here is a complete breakdown of the system with prices. This is based on a bench grinder followed by waterstones and a strop.


Slow speed bench grinder: Delta GR275 (http://www.amazon.com/GR275-6-Inch-Variable-Grinder-Tool-Less/dp/B0007WWHZC/ref=pd_cp_hi_0?pf_rd_p=413863601&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0000DD0BX&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=095EHJWSSG2Q3GG0J4AF) $95
Shapton 1000:At Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Ceramic-Orange-Professional-Water-Stone/dp/B000E6JPNS/ref=pd_sim_hi_1) $48. This can be possible swapped with a DMT diamond stone.
Shapton 8000: At Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Ceramic-Melon-Professional-Water-Stone/dp/B000E75RHK) $94
Horse Butt strop: On TFWW (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=MS-HORSEST) $23
Green honing compound: At TFWW (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-GREENHN&Category_Code=THO) $6


Total for the complete setup $266, considering this is the list price and if you are patient you should be able to catch these on a sale and get under the $250 number

[Joe Vincent]

I'm still not convinced you need to give up on Scary Sharp as the way to follow up on establishing bevels with a grinder. And if you've not been stropping, then add that at the end of your Scary Sharp regimen.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Joe, the only reason I want to give up on Scary Sharp is to move to freehanding, eliminating the need to mount tools into jigs, which defeats the concept of a quick touch up in the middle of work. I have tried freehanding on SS but soon enough I will nick the paper and then I have to go through the whole cycle of removing/cleaning the old paper and gluing a new paper. Another problem I have with SS is the quick deterioration of sandpaper (I use LV pre-glued), with a waterstone the cutting speed stays consitent at a certain level.

The 8000 Shapton and a strop is probably all I will need for quick touch ups.

[Joe Vincent]

I see. I can understand the issues related to freehanding and sandpaper. I'm new to Scary Sharp myself and use the Veritas MK II, which I find quick enought to use for touching up. Maybe at some point with more experience and confidence I'll give a shot at freehanding. Let us know how it works out.

[Johnny Kleso]

WC slow speed bench grinder and some hand stones or scary sharp..

I have just about every system..
I have a home made MKII I call a MKIII :)
https://home.comcast.net/~rexmill/sharpening/MKIII/MKIII.html

This system works really well and is great for flattenig backs but what I use most is a bench grinder and oil stones and a water stone to finish..

[Wilbur Pan]

Let's say $100 for the bench grinder and $150 for stones, and Shaptons have lots of fans. What grits do I need coming right off the grinder? going all the way to 8k as the final polishing grit. I guess I can stick with Norton 3X sandpaper for flattening backs since that is a one time activity per tool.

Coming off a grinder, a 1000 or 2000 stone, and then a 8000 stone can give you really great results. I have a 1000/5000/8000 set of Shaptons. The 5000 is nice, but not necessary. You will spend more time on the 8000 going straight from the 1000 than you would going from the 1000 to the 5000 to the 8000 combined.

It's exactly like sanding. You could sand with only 120 and 320 grit sandpaper, but it goes faster if you use the intervening grits.

And again, if you are looking to keep costs to a minimum, I don't think you'll need a strop if you have the Shapton 8000 stone.

[Mike Henderson]

And again, if you are looking to keep costs to a minimum, I don't think you'll need a strop if you have the Shapton 8000 stone.
One low cost strop is to put the green compound on something like MDF and strop on that. You don't need leather.

But if you're dead set for leather, go to the Salvation Army store and buy a thin leather belt, glue it to MDF and use that as a strop.

The green honing compound is available in many places - check your local Woodcraft or equivalent - and it doesn't cost much. A small bar, which will last you a loooong time should be less than $10.

Mike

[But I agree with Wilbur that the 8000 stone is usually enough for things like chisels and plane blades.]

[Ben Fleis]

I have not used any mechanical sharpening systems, short of a bench grinder, but I'm not convinced of the utility. To me the ultimate blend of utility and speed is:

"scary sharp" for lapping irons/chisels: ie, plate glass + PSA 100/220
bench grinder
shapton stones: 1000/4000/8000

I don't know if you can get below $250 without buying the cheapest possible grinder, but it's in that ball park, and the majority of the money is being spent where it matters: on the shaptons. The finish yielded by the 8000 grit is superb. Optimally, you would buy either a DMT or a shapton lapping diamond plate to lap the stones themselves (and lap nothing else with it -- it's too valuable), but you could get by with the plate glass and a bit more PSA at higher grit.



So I get a slow speed grinder for about 100, a 1000 diamond or Norton stone, and an 8000 stone. I can make my own strop. I know I can handle a hollow ground Hock blade, chisels are not a problem either, are you guys suggesting a free handing a standard Stanley plane blade (hollow ground) will not require a long learning curve.

All I need now is a coupon for some $s off on a purchase :cool:

I would strongly recommend adding an intermediate stone here -- the jump from 1000 to 8000 is too much -- it will take you less time to go 1000 -> 4000 -> 8000. Realistically, once you've completely lapped and setup your chisels/irons, you'll usually never need to touch the 1000, and perhaps not even the 4000, depending on how often you hone.

I have never tried a strop, since I buy the argument that the strop is just potentially folding over that crisp edge you spent so much time building.


Learning to hand hone the camber will not take too long. Just be patient, and make sure to setup your body such that only one part is doing the moving: some people say lock the arms and move the torso, others that lock the legs/torso and use the arms only. I do the latter, but pick one, and learn it. Once you have the rhythm, apply pressure on either side, as Mike suggested, and pay attention to the burr. Especially after a 4000 or higher stone, the burr can be tiny, and fold over as you touch it, so learn to be sensitive to the edge. On a good honing, it only takes a dozen strokes for me to get a burr and get back to work.

All that being said, the MK II honing guide is awesome if you're going to buy a guide. You can also buy the cheapo ubiquitous guide, and setup a trivial jig for setting angles with it, and get very close for far less money. But now that I've learned to freehand, I don't often long for the guide.


Enough rambling. Please share what you do, and what you think of it after you've learned to use it. Good luck.

-b

[Bill White]

I use a combination.
The old, trusty Makita horizontal water system, water stones for touch up, and stropping with compound for the razor edge.
Sure works for me and all my sharps.
Bill

[larry cronkite]

I bought the Work Sharp 3000 today and quickly sharpened two sets of chisels. It is simple to operate and really does a good job without having to run plumbing to the sharpening station.

Larry

[Zahid Naqvi]

Since I had asked advice and now that the sub $250 sharpening setup is complete I thought I'd post an update. Here is the list of gadgets I have acquired

1. Harbor Freight wet grinder: don't freak out this one is no Tormek but is great for the price. $70
2. Shapton 1000 glass stone: Craftsman Studios, $43
3. Shapton 4000 glass stone: Craftsman Studios, $56. I didn't choose the 8000 because I knew I would need a strop for my carving stuff, besides the jump from 1000 to 8000 seemed a little too spread out.
4. Strop and honing compound, free since I already had both.

Since I was $80 under budget I decided to get a set of slips for my carving tools.
5. Chris Pye standard slip stone set: Craftsman Studios, $60

Grand total: $230.

Some added notes.

* The HF grinder is not even in the same city (forget ball park) compared to the Tormek, but look at the price. Out of the box the steel jig holder rod was not parallel to the stone, a few whacks with a hammer fixed that. The honing wheel was wobbly, a few layers of duck tape under the wheel took care of that. In short by making minor tunings the grinder can be brought into very useable state. For ocassional hobby use this is the cats meow. There is a video of the HF grinder on youTube with some verbal comments on how to tune it up.

* I have used oil stones, SS and water stones. Nothing, I repeat nothing, cuts as fast as the Shaptons. I am more than impressed with these stones. Of all the products listed above Shapton stones are the best investment and the quality of workmanship is obvious as soon as you open the box.

[George Beck]

I thought I might jump in on this sharpening business. I have just about every sharpening method out there (Shapton, water stones, oil stones, lap sharp, diamond hones) and all will work. All will also wear eventually. I think the most important thing about sharpening is achieving true Flat. IMO this is the biggest problem in the sharpening process, maintaining true flat. Sharpening is all about geometry. Water stones wear and get out of flat quickly. There are also the easiest to re-flatten. If I had it all to do over again, I would have purchased a granite reference plate first. This provides a reference for true flat and can be used with sandpaper or 3M micro lapping paper to sharpen and true stones. Once the back and bevel are referenced to true flat and the stones are truly flat, the sharpening process goes along fairly quickly. I have a friend who uses nothing but lapping paper on a piece of granite and he gets sharp tools. I have another who uses expensive stones but continually re-flattens them. The granite (or glass) reference plate does both. Just a thought.

George

[Marcus Ward]

Garb-o-strop : Oh my, that is brilliant. I must do something similar.

I use mostly the scary sharp system with the lee valley abrasive sheets. I used to set the initial bevel using a belt sander flipped over and the lee valley jig but there is a tendency to camber the blade if you get any wiggle in the jig. I have set initial bevels by hand using 80 grit and the jig and they are VERY square (and my favorite blades to use) but it's ridiculously labor intensive. I've been thinking of getting one of those stationary belt sanders and doing it like Derek Cohen does here: http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=16156

Usually when I need to touch a blade up I have a sheet of .5 micron lee valley paper on a hunk of granite. If I'm feeling froggy I do it freehand, sometimes I use the lee valley jig. Either way it's pretty quick.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I have been scary sharpening for a few years using LV paper and it is quite good. Two observations between the SS vs Shaptons. The Shaptons cut so much faster than any sandpaper I have ever used. I can free hand on the Shaptons, not so on the SS because of the fear of nicking the sandpaper. I think flattening the stone will also take much less time than removing and re-gluing a sheet of sandpaper.

For regular maintenance all you need is stropping anyway, stropping is so much faster and convenient than fitting a blade/chisel in a honing jig and hitting a sandpaper.

[Don C Peterson]

Joel, thanks for your advice. I have been thinking about the DMTs because of the ease of use (no lubricant needed) and cost. But I was following a thread on woodnet on the same subject and some people seemed to think that the DMTs cut slower than a comparative Shapton.
If anyone who has used both can chime in with a comparison that would be quite helpful. I'd rather use the DMT at lower grits than waterstones, precisely because they do not require flattening and other regular maintenance.

I have used both the Shaptons and DMT "stones". I don't think the Shaptons have seen the light of day for nearly two years...

I have the coarse, medium, and fine DMT stones that I use for initial preparation.

For day to day use, I have an extra fine DMT stone and then a hard Black Arkansas stone and a strop. Most of the time I just go from the DMT to the strop and back to work. Less than 2 minutes to stop work, hone and back to work. I never worry about the DMT becomming dished and messing up the tool.

I just got tired of spending time flattening waterstones, and the accompanying mess, but if you want a Shapton 8000, I have one that I'd let go really cheap...

I also have the LV MkII jig, but it rarely sees daylight either. I can be done honing freehand faster than I can even get the jig set up. I don't even use it to hone my bevel up irons anymore; so what if I'm off by a degree, or even five? As long as the tool works.

I use mineral spirits on the DMT stones and the Arkansas stones. It's much less messy than water and I don't worry about spilling it on my bench or projects.

[David Keller NC]

Zahid - I read the list of items you purchased to complete your sharpening system. I use the Norton waterstones (simply because they were available at the time - they've lasted for a few years), but I'd expect the Shaptons to be similar in this regard - you probably will not need the 8000 grit stone. I do use mine if I've been careless with my strop and dubbed an edge on a chisel, but I generally don't use it for my carving tools.

There's a couple of reasons for that - one is that the stone is very vulnerable to trenching, and the nature of the curving motion you need to hone a carving gouge free-hand makes this extremely easy to do. The other reason is just that a strop is so very, very fast to re-establish a slightly dull edge compared to setting up the waterstones.

One thing that I'd suggest you're going to want, however - a granite surface plate to keep the Shaptons flat. You can get a really good one from Woodcraft for an astoundingly low price - I remember when these "polished, flat rocks" were hundreds of dollars. The one they sell is made in China, of course, but it is very flat, and about the right size to hold a piece of wet-dry sandpaper by surface tension, and without having to trim the paper. The reason I suggest one of these is that they're easier to use than sticking sandpaper down to MDF, and unless you've a very thick piece, float glass seems to give enough in use that you can wind up with a slight convexity in your waterstones.

That's of no consequence for honing the bevel on a plane blade, chisel bevel or carving tool, but it is a PITA when trying to flatten the back of a chisel or a plane blade - just a few thousandths out of flat will frustrate you when trying to get a uniform sheen across the back of a plane iron. If you're using the David Charlesworth "ruler trick", then the out-of-flat condition may make no difference at all, but my preference in this regard is to maintain the backs of my plane irons without the back-bevel the ruler trick puts on them.

Partly this is due to laziness on my part - once you put a back-bevel on a plane iron, you need to maintain this bevel as you do the primary bevel, and reproducing the exact orientation and spacing of the ruler time after time is difficult. Without the back bevel, I just need to keep the stone flat, and give the iron a quick swipe across the back to sharpen away the burr - no set-up to hit the back bevel exactly needed.

[Zahid Naqvi]

David, I never got the 8000 stone, precisely because of the carving tools. I knew I had to keep a strop so the 8000 sounded redundant. Having used the setup a few times I think I made the correct choice, I can strop a plane blade or a chisel after the 4000 stone and get it to hair shaving sharpness in no time.

I have several pieces of Corian I got from Dennis, each about 12"X5", I have 4 of these with 4 different grits of sandpaper (my ScarySharp setup). But I am on the lookout for granite.

[Joe Cunningham]

I must admit to never using a strop. I have one in my sharpening kit, but without any honing compound. It came with some slipstones I bought years ago.

Do you just charge it with compound and try to keep a similar angle as freehand sharpening or ?

[Zahid Naqvi]

Joe, I have only recently started using a strop so I can't claim any kind of expertise on using it. Basically what you do is using a honing compond of some sort (the green bars from LV seem quite popular), I got a white bar (polishing compound) from home Depot and it seems to work fine too. You draw a bunch of criss cross marks on the leather all along the length and width to "charge" the strop. Then place your plane iron or chisel on the strop with the bevel in full contact, as if you are freehanding the tool on a stone, but you only draw it back. Never push as it might dig into the strop. Keep in mind the stop is just "fine tuning" te edge so it will only remove very minimal iron/steel.
Here is a link I found useful when I was reading on the subject, Joel's site has a short video of the draw back motion.
http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/sharpstropping.html

Some people think stropping on leather can round over the edge some, I have not really tested that much so no comments on that subject.

[David Keller NC]

"Some people think stropping on leather can round over the edge some, I have not really tested that much so no comments on that subject."

There's no question about this - if you're careless, you can definitely dub an edge on a strop. That said, though, the primary risk of doing this is on a power strop. I've a Tormek, and it's very easy to round over a freshly ground edge on the power strop attachment in a jiffy. This is one of the reasons I don't use that feature much and stick with a "manual" strop glued down to a piece of mahogany. Since it takes about 3 strokes to bring a carving tool back up to razor sharp, there's not too much danger of really rounding over the bevel to the point where it'd require re-grinding. I've still done it by not paying attention, but the round-over is small enough that I can just re-hone it for a few seconds on the 4000 grit stone to restore the bevel.

Zahid - Regarding a piece of granite to flatten your stones on, I'd suggest that a piece of granite countertop is not going to be substantially better than the pieces of corian that you have. A granite surface plate is a special tool - it is ground very, very precisely across its surface so that it's flat within a few tens of thousandths of an inch. I don't think this precision is required for most honing uses of bench stones at all - it'd be pretty silly to think that you must maintain a bevel angle on a tool with that sort of tolerance. However, that degree of flatness does come into play when you're flattening and polishing the back of a wide surface like a plane iron.

The reason has to do more with matching the initial flatness grind of the back of the blade to your stones - if the manufacturer provides you with a grind that's within a ten-thousandths of an inch (not all that unusual with a modern tool) on the back of blade, and your stones are out of flat by 3 or 4 thousandths of an inch, there's a lot of extra work to make the back of the plane iron "match" your stones. You'll get there eventually - the goal really isn't to make the back of the blade absolutely flat, it's to polish it all the way across the width of the back where it meets the primary bevel, and this can be accomplished with a slight hollow or a slight convexity across the width of the plane iron - it just means taking off a good deal of metal, on a really hard plane iron (try this with a Hock blade - it takes hundreds of strokes to remove 5 thousandths off of the back!), that could be a really tedious process.

Here's a link to Woodcraft's grantie surface plate - it might seem expensive for a rock, but's a very precise rock (and that's what you're paying for):

http://www.woodcraft.com/product.aspx?ProductID=144838&FamilyID=4864

[Don C Peterson]

To expand on the strop/polishing compound discussion...

The white compound at the borgs will work as Zahid says, but it is not quite as fine as the green, which in turn is not as fine as the red (jeweler's rouge). I have settled on the green compound for now.

I have also found that using some mineral spirits on the strop helps the compound to spread evenly and it also helps with periodic cleaning. Just take a clean rag dip it in mineral spirits and wipe the strop to get the old compound and steel particles off, then rub some more compound on and away you go.

Some folks use honing oil for this, but I found that mineral spirits works about as well, but doesn't leave the oily residue that gets messy after a while.

[David Keller NC]

Don - Curiously, the red compound that I use on my strop has instructions that specifically state to avoid using any oil. The directions given to the user is just to break off some of the compound (it's the consistency and dryness of hard chalk) and "butter it into" the leather. I'm not sure what the reason is for the caution against using oil, because of course any leather will be impregnated with oil (it's part of the process of making leather - without it, it'd be very brittle).

The mineral spirits is an interesting idea - I may try to mix up a slurry of pulverized red compound and mineral spirits in a mortar and pestle the next time I need to re-do the strop. One other observation - when I first charge the strop with compound, it leaves scratches on the back surface of a plane iron. With use, these dissappear, which I assume is a result of the abrasive particles breaking down. This is one reason I don't try to remove the iron particles and old abrasive when I re-charge the strop - I just put more abrasive on.

[Don C Peterson]

I'm not sure why the directions would state that you should not use oil. I don't make up a paste, or break pieces off, I just take the stick and scribble it on the strop like a big crayon. Then I take a bottle of mineral spirits and squirt a fine stream on the strop and start using. The mineral spirits seem to help the compund to spread out over the whole strop.

I have never noticed any scratches caused by the strop/compound.

I don't know how necessary it is to clean the strop, I do it maybe twice a year or so. I can't say that I notice that the strop works better afterwards, but I can't help but think that the compund and steel particles build up over time and should be removed. I could be mistaken in that belief though...

[David Keller NC]

Don - It might be that the honing compound I have isn't really jeweler's rouge, despite its red color. I'm not really sure what its chemical composition is (limestone (tripoli) or aluminum or zinc oxide), but it seems really friable. Perhaps that's why I have to "break it in" - there's fairly large particles in the matrix that get broken down into smaller particles as I continue to use it. Perhaps going to a different compound wouldn't be a bad idea.

Regarding the oil thing, I'm fairly skeptical about the directions with the compound. After all, the Tormek honing compound is basically lithium grease with some abrasive mixed in.

Curious - has anyone tried using the 0.5 micron diamond paste on a leather strop? I've been wondering if that would result in a more efficient strop that would polish faster.