Porter Cable not looking good.

[Dave Lehnert]

I was walking around Lowe's yesterday. They have started receiving the new Porter Cable tools. They have not yet put displays out so I could not see or feel the tools. But they had the old model circular saw next to the new. The old model was $125 the new $59. Combine that with the fact the Black and Decker tools were flushed out and PC now sits in that shelf space. Is the new PC tools just the new Black and Decker? Looks to be the case.

[Chris Rosenberger]

From what I remember. PC will become the low cost line in place of Black & Decker.
Dewalt will now be the top line.

[Brent Smith]

Why have I got an R&R song buzzing through my head...."Another One Bites the Dust"!!

It's just another chapter in the dumbing out of the north American consumer by the bean counters. Take a good brand name, cheapen it and fill the coorporate coffers for a few years till people catch on that they're not buying the quality they expected. There's a reason why small cottage industries are now getting more orders than they can handle, they're one of the few places that quality can still be found.

[Dave Sweeney]

Anyone who pays $59 for a circular saw and thinks that they are going to be buying a high quality tools deserves what they get. I'm not saying that I like what they're doing to the PC Line but don't blame corporate for dumb consumers who refuse to educate themselves.

[Brent Smith]

Hi Dave,

I'm not blaming B&D corporate for consumers who refuse to educate themselves, I'm blaming them for taking away from me, and everyone else, what I've always considered to be a good line of tools. What I am saying negative about B&D corporate is that they are going to be playing on a well established brand name to pull in money from an unexpecting consumer base. The average home owner does not have the experience with tools that the average member here has. They may watch DYI TV and NYW and others. From these shows they have gotten the idea that Porter Cable are professional grade tools. If B&D wanted to put out another line of lower end home owner tools they could use another brand name. Instead they chose to lower quality on a well known brand, which whether you, or I, like it or not is a calculated move designed to assure themselves of a ready made customer base for their 'new line'.

[Rollie Meyers]

Anything from Black & Decker: DeWalt, Delta, Porter-Cable is to be avoided at all costs unless one wishes to buy garbage to put in the landfill. Milwaukee has headed into that catagory too.:mad:It looks like for me it's used tools only, stationary power tools have already gone throwaway being made in China or Tiawan w/ peanut butter cast iron and cheesy quality motors and controls.

[Don Bullock]

I've never been one who put a lot of faith in a tool based on name alone. As I've stated here before, my shop has a rainbow of colors. I don't see that changing any time soon. My purchases have been and will continue to be based on the merits of each tool, how much I can afford to spend and how much the tool will be used in my shop. The fact that PC's quality is being compromised doesn't surprise me nor does it make me upset. As long as there are tools that fit my needs and budget I don't care who makes them or what color they are.

[Steve Clardy]

Doesn't look good to me.
Hopefully they will keep the current lineup of 690 and 7500 series routers, and their nail guns.

[Peter Quinn]

Dam shame if its true. They made some fine routers, saws and planers. I have an old port-a-planer door planer that can't be beat...any other portable planer have a solid carbide spiral head and a stainless sole plate?

I guess making good tools and a reasonable profit isn't enough for a corporation like B&D. They have poisoned Delta, now they are crippling Porter Cable and promoting DeWalt? So it goes.

[David G Baker]

On any of the heavier duty tools I shop and try to find the older, higher quality used tools with brands that have proven themselves over time prior to the deterioration of quality.

[Ben Rafael]

Black and Decker and Stanley also were good names once upon a time but people now realize they make mostly low end stuff. Eventually people will realize porter cable is the same way if they indeed go that route.
PC makes a few things that are absolute gems(routers for example) for the price. If those items get cheapened then they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

[John Callahan]

Porter Cable not looking good
Yes and no. The little 371 belt sander is a winner and I got a chance to try the new 390 ROS at a tool show last week........it looks to be a winner as does the new Omnijig. As long as they don't stop making the good stuff the lower end stuff won't bother me.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I agree. Makita is my number one jobsite tool with Hitatchi in second. I steer clear of the DW clan since the buyout. Not a fan of the TTI web either [Ryobi, Ridgid and Milwaukee among others].

That said I have three PC guns that work fine and one sander I wouldn't trade. Buying new from them is not an option now that this has transpired...just can't use homeowner geared line of tools in a real job.

[Anthony Anderson]

Anything from Black & Decker: DeWalt, Delta, Porter-Cable is to be avoided at all costs unless one wishes to buy garbage to put in the landfill. Milwaukee has headed into that catagory too.:mad:It looks like for me it's used tools only, stationary power tools have already gone throwaway being made in China or Tiawan w/ peanut butter cast iron and cheesy quality motors and controls.


:confused::confused::confused: I have each of the tool names that you have mentioned, my shop is kind of a rainbow as Don B. says, and none of these tools are "garbage" or headed to the landfill any time soon. Not sure how you bolster your claim that these names are garbage? But anyway I like my DW/PC tools.

I do agree with Brent, it is a shame that corporate is going to take the name to the landfill though. And there are a large majority of the population that will buy on brand name recognition alone. It may be their own fault for not doing their homework, but that still doesn't make it right. Just my two cents. Bill

[Jake Helmboldt]

Yes and no. The little 371 belt sander is a winner and I got a chance to try the new 390 ROS at a tool show last week........it looks to be a winner as does the new Omnijig. As long as they don't stop making the good stuff the lower end stuff won't bother me.

Great timing. I just bought a new ROS today since my Dewalt's (15 yrs old) pad started disintegrating yesterday. The 390 is not available and the store said they hate dealing with B&D. Amazingly the PC was the only variable speed ROS they had.

Ran down to Lowes afterwards just to see what they had. The new Bosch was in stock, $20 cheaper, and it feels nicer in the hand, though has less power and only a 1 yr warranty (PC came with 3). 90 day money back guarantee, so I'll make some dust and see how it goes.

[Jason Beam]

I agree. Makita is my number one jobsite tool with Hitatchi in second. I steer clear of the DW clan since the buyout.


Just a note: Dewalt's been owned by B&D for 50 years or more, now. They weren't part of the recent buyout. B&D's been mucking with the Dewalt name for generations! :)

[Dan Friedrichs]

I always thought of Delta/PC as making pretty high-end stuff. If PC starts building junk, who's left that makes anything good (in the same price range)? It'd be great to have a shop full of Festool, but what's left for the serious hobbyist? Makita, Bosch, Milwaukee, Delta?

[Rollie Meyers]

:confused::confused::confused: I have each of the tool names that you have mentioned, my shop is kind of a rainbow as Don B. says, and none of these tools are "garbage" or headed to the landfill any time soon. Not sure how you bolster your claim that these names are garbage? But anyway I like my DW/PC tools.

I do agree with Brent, it is a shame that corporate is going to take the name to the landfill though. And there are a large majority of the population that will buy on brand name recognition alone. It may be their own fault for not doing their homework, but that still doesn't make it right. Just my two cents. Bill


I do not own any DeWalt but do own older Delta and P-C tools and am quite fond of those tools but B&D is going to pull a fine name like P-C into the toilet, Pentair* had already made 99 9/10th's of Delta's products garbage in the last few years..

*Pentair sold Delta & P-C to Bleak & Dorker.

[Jason White]

I own a RIDGID tablesaw (TS3650) and it's the best tool in my shop... and I own several Festool machines.

I'm with a previous poster who recommended judging a tool based on its own merits rather than a brand name alone.

JW


I agree. Makita is my number one jobsite tool with Hitatchi in second. I steer clear of the DW clan since the buyout. Not a fan of the TTI web either [Ryobi, Ridgid and Milwaukee among others].

That said I have three PC guns that work fine and one sander I wouldn't trade. Buying new from them is not an option now that this has transpired...just can't use homeowner geared line of tools in a real job.

[Gary Breckenridge]

When I was 6 years old selling Kool-Aid in the neighborhood I learned a good business lesson.
Get the money now.

[Anthony Anderson]

When I was 6 years old selling Kool-Aid in the neighborhood I learned a good business lesson.
Get the money now.

But in your haste, as a kid selling kool aid, and "getting the money now, you had the bright idea of using your kool aid stand to try and pass off your dog's pee as lemonade, I'll bet you would have many customers to 'get the money now' from:D. And your business would have 'dried' up rather quickly.

[Clint Winterhalter]

I met with a Dewalt rep in Orange CA several weeks ago. I asked him about the downgrading of PC. He told me the "new tools" are getting good review etc (now more focused on price / home owner). When pressed he said that Dewalt will be the premium line. My company sells a ton of the 7800 drywall sander. I asked him if they would be Yellow soon. He smiled and said more than likely..

Clint

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I own a RIDGID tablesaw (TS3650) and it's the best tool in my shop... and I own several Festool machines.

I'm with a previous poster who recommended judging a tool based on its own merits rather than a brand name alone.

JW

Trust me, I have. I am also a previous poster so I don't really uinderstand that part of your response,

I am not a hobbiest and have bought more tools than most. I owned several Ridgid tools [grey ones] when the swap happened to TTI. I also had a few Craftsman tools and have watched both marks quickly deteriorate under the new company. The first problem I saw was service on my tools become non existant. I was told more than a few times [on tools that carried a lifetime warranty] that the part in question had reached it's lifetime.

I won't ever buy from that company again or any other that cheapens the line. This is not the first time this has come up in this forum [and many others] or the first time I have responded this way. Course you probably haven't read those responses. I never base any of my tool purchases on anything other than previous experience. That said, when a line gets downgraded to homeowner price structure, I know to stay very far away.....I know they just don't last for what I do.

Most of you being hobbiests, for what you do these tools might just work fine. I have more than a few PC tools in my shop. I have never had good luck with DW tools and since the buyout, I haven't bought one at all. It will be interesting to watch the resposnse over time to this one.

About the buyout I mentioned....I meant the PC buyout by B&D. I know the history of DW and I've never had good luck with either tool brand with the exception of the two $59 DW corded drills I own.

[Greg Robbins]

Great timing. I just bought a new ROS today since my Dewalt's (15 yrs old) pad started disintegrating yesterday. The 390 is not available and the store said they hate dealing with B&D. Amazingly the PC was the only variable speed ROS they had.


You can get replacement parts for your ROS here.
www.ereplacementparts.com

[John Keeton]

I don't profess to know nearly as much about this as some who have posted. But, I think we make a mistake in assigning some "deceptive" scheme to this. Most companies simply have to go where the market is.

SMC seems to be comprised of individuals that may be considerably more discerning than the bulk of the buying public. The responders here are hardly a representative group reflecting the mass market.

If a company, Festool for example, markets to the 10% or so that have both the money and desire for a quality built tool, they are playing to a very limited and finite group. The revenues are limited. They sell a tool that will not need replacement any time soon. Yes, this group will have more money, and will buy more tools in a lifetime. But, there are fewer of them. How long have you had your electric drill? Ask one of the younger guys coming out of the BORG how many drills he has bought in the last 10 years?

Unfortunately, we have become a disposable society and most people buy their circular saw, drill, etc. at a BORG to use 3 times a year building that new deck, picnic table, etc. That is where the bulk of the revenue source lies. And, those tools will be replaced in short order - either from lack of quality, lack of care, etc. I truly think that those that spend $39 for a drill know exactly what they are getting, and are OK with that.

We have only ourselves to blame. The number of individuals that demand quality is diminishing. Capitalism does work, it is just that the end result does not always please everyone.

[David Cramer]

"The part in question had reached its lifetime", by Kelly C. Hanna, ain't that the truth.

I'm not trying to deter from the original poster, but those who have lifetime warranties on Ridgid tools, don't really have lifetime warranties. When the part has reached the point that "Ridgid claims is its lifetime", then you have to pay for it, believe it or not. I was told this during a 3-way phone conversation with 2 Ridgid employees. If the switch goes bad on your drill, then THEY can decide when you have to pay for it.

The batteries may be a different story, but the tools aren't lifetime, as they lead you to believe.

Please don't get me wrong, some free service is better than none, but I'm
just setting the record straight. :rolleyes:Lifetime:rolleyes: is not what they imply it to be.


David

[Jeffrey Makiel]

B&D once made a line of quality industrial tools. I bought several of them 25 years ago. They work really well, even today. In fact, I paid $140 for a jigsaw 25 years ago which is almost what you can buy a Bosch, DeWalt or Milwaukee jigsaw for today. B&D 'industrial' tools are exactly what they were: industrial.

However, when B&D realized that its name was synonymous to cheap tools that you got when opening a new bank account, they acquired the DeWalt name and recolored the industrial B&D tools from black to yellow. Also, B&D was owned by parent company Simplex (or Simpson?) which expanded the tool line under the new DeWalt name in the late 1980s. The B&D industrial line was now DeWalt.

So, what's my point?

I have no doubt that B&D is able to build industrial quality tools if they choose to do so. That is, it's their conscious decision to build homeowner stuff likely based on marketing and not their ability to engineer a fine tool.

Now it's beginning with Porter Cable.

The new rules are: CEOs steer the company to make cheap tools and sell them under a traditionally well regarded brand name to retail giants who are more concerned with cost than quality. By doing this, the management goal is to make large short term profits until traditional PC buyers catch on. Then, when stocks plummet, the CEO gets a wonderful golden parachute and the board members enjoy tremendous short term gains. During this period, other quality tool manufacturers take a hit and hope they will recover...or they join the frenzy.

It’s the new American way.

-Jeff :)

[Don Bullock]

... Most companies simply have to go where the market is...
...Unfortunately, we have become a disposable society and most people buy their circular saw, drill, etc. at a BORG to use 3 times a year building that new deck, picnic table, etc. That is where the bulk of the revenue source lies. And, those tools will be replaced in short order - either from lack of quality, lack of care, etc. I truly think that those that spend $39 for a drill know exactly what they are getting, and are OK with that....

Great points John. This, however, is nothing new. I remember doing that very thing many years ago. In my case it was due to lack of money and the need to get a particular project done. Actually one of the very "cheap," poorly made drills I bought back in the early '70s (remember the olive green plastic bodies) finally stopped working a couple of years ago. I have to admit that I really abused it too.


...
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The new rules are: CEOs steer the company to make cheap tools and sell them under a traditionally well regarded brand name to retail giants who are more concerned with cost than quality. By doing this, the management goal is to make large short term profits until traditional PC buyers catch on. Then, when stocks plummet, the CEO gets a wonderful golden parachute and the board members enjoy tremendous short term gains. During this period, other quality tool manufacturers take a hit and hope they will recover...or they join the frenzy.

It’s the new American way.

-Jeff :)

Frankly, I don't think it's new at all. When my wife and I got married in the early '70s there were several companies that were "cheapening" their line of tools. I remember buying my first router at what was one of the biggest "home improvement" chains at the time. The company that made the router had a great reputation, but some of their tools, including the router I bought, were absolute junk. The same name even survives on some "quality" tools today. The name on a tool or its color, do not guarantee quality. If the higher quality tools switch from Porter Cable gray to DeWalt yellow what difference does it make? As has always been true the buyer needs to be aware of tool quality changes and purchase the tool that fits their needs and budget.

[J. Z. Guest]

It is kind of depressing, but the bottom line is that brand names don't mean anything any more unless we also know the corporate workings.

Black & Decker & Skil used to make great tools. Those were the days when it was hard to buy a bad tool. I gave my great B&D uncle's jigsaw to my brother a few months ago.

It has an all-metal body, is grounded, included an edge guide, and has a lubrication point for the reciprocating shaft. Wow. This was a pretty basic jigsaw, but it is still going 30+ years later.

I've got an old B&D drill that is pre '78 vintage. It is a noisy, single-speed 1/4" drill, but the thing still works and doesn't bog down. The Milwaukees of that vintage were even better, but for the typical buyer, it was fine for a lifetime.

That bit about a part for a tool "reaching its lifetime" is a bunch of hoo-ha. If they're going to do that, they should provide you with a new tool.

I guess we should be open-minded though. Weekend woodworkers are between professionals and the typical DIY user. We don't use the tools hard every day, but we use them a lot more than once or twice a year too. We don't need super-industrial grade, but we do need precision and a bit better quality than entry-level stuff.

[Jeff Duncan]

Here's a little something many of the guys not in the profession (and even some who are) may not know. Almost anything you buy at a box store is the lowest quality of the brand.
For those who say they want the quality and would pay for it (is that crickets chirping I hear?) take a look at the special order catalog or find a good tool supply. Porter Cable and Milwaukee still make excellent tools that do not fit in the price category of the box stores. So yes they are making cheaper tools to keep a foot in the door. That does not mean they aren't still making the better quality stuff, it just means that you have to do a little homework and shop outside of the box stores.
These posts always amuse me a bit, most guys around here know not to buy plywood or lumber from a box store as they are cheaper inferior goods. Why would you think tools are any different? If you want quality you can get it, but it will cost you. I bought my PC circular saw about 20 years ago and it cost over $200 then. It's still going strong and will easily outlast anything bought at a box store. My guess is most guys once they see how much a real tool costs, are going right back to the $59 circular saw. Oh they'll complain about how the quality isn't what it used to be and how terrible all these companies are getting, but when it comes time to open the wallet I'd bet Porter Cable will sell 100 or more of those $59 saws for every 1 of their professional grade saws.
I saw it first hand working in the tool section of a box store. People want the cheapest tool available. It always amazed me, a guy can spend a hundred bucks or more for a pair of tickets to a baseball/basketball/football game without a second thought. Or maybe spend $100 bucks to put gas in the truck, or countless other things, but think spending $100 or more on a tool that could last them a lifetime is too much?
In short I guess my point is that it's not the companies forcing us to buy cheaper quality, it's us consumers forcing them to provide us less quality for less money. They're having to make tools cheaper and cheaper in order to keep their businesses alive. My guess is eventually there just won't be any American tool manufacturers left:(
JeffD

[Ben Rafael]

"The part in question had reached its lifetime", by Kelly C. Hanna, ain't that the truth.

I'm not trying to deter from the original poster, but those who have lifetime warranties on Ridgid tools, don't really have lifetime warranties. When the part has reached the point that "Ridgid claims is its lifetime", then you have to pay for it, believe it or not. I was told this during a 3-way phone conversation with 2 Ridgid employees. If the switch goes bad on your drill, then THEY can decide when you have to pay for it.

The batteries may be a different story, but the tools aren't lifetime, as they lead you to believe.


David

"As they lead you to believe"

One day, sooner than later, an attorney will run with this. Any reasonable person is led to believe that Lifetime is assumed to be the lifetime of the original owner; not the lifetime of the tool or any of it's components.

I have several of the gray ridgid tools. The manual states, quite explicitly, about the lifetime warranty. Honestly, I dont see anything going wrong with them anyway.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I think a lot of folks believe that they are buying a quality tool even if it's only $59 when a comparable quality tool would be $159. I believe they recognize the famous brand name associated from a time that has long gone.

I also believe it is a one shot marketing deal for a manufacturer whose reputation will never be the same again no matter what. It deploys the philosophy that there is a seat for every rear end, and you can sell most anything to the masses once.

On the positive side, the internet is a powerful equalizer today. Forums like Sawmill Creek quickly dispel hype and expose badge deception. As stated above by other posters, brand is meaning less these days, and buyers must be more skeptical and vigilant.

Anyway, I must leave now to go to my famous national brand bank to withdrawl my life savings before they collapse. :)

-Jeff :)

[Denny Rice]

I don't profess to know nearly as much about this as some who have posted. But, I think we make a mistake in assigning some "deceptive" scheme to this. Most companies simply have to go where the market is.

SMC seems to be comprised of individuals that may be considerably more discerning than the bulk of the buying public. The responders here are hardly a representative group reflecting the mass market.

If a company, Festool for example, markets to the 10% or so that have both the money and desire for a quality built tool, they are playing to a very limited and finite group. The revenues are limited. They sell a tool that will not need replacement any time soon. Yes, this group will have more money, and will buy more tools in a lifetime. But, there are fewer of them. How long have you had your electric drill? Ask one of the younger guys coming out of the BORG how many drills he has bought in the last 10 years?

Unfortunately, we have become a disposable society and most people buy their circular saw, drill, etc. at a BORG to use 3 times a year building that new deck, picnic table, etc. That is where the bulk of the revenue source lies. And, those tools will be replaced in short order - either from lack of quality, lack of care, etc. I truly think that those that spend $39 for a drill know exactly what they are getting, and are OK with that.

We have only ourselves to blame. The number of individuals that demand quality is diminishing. Capitalism does work, it is just that the end result does not always please everyone.


This entire reorganization thing with PC and DeWalt is just stupid. There are enough companies out there that build cheap Chinese tools out there to take care of the market for the guy who wants junk. In 1988 I purchased a 9.6 Makita cordless drill, at the time I paid a litle over 200.00 (which was high for the times) for the drill and charger, it has been dropped, kicked, and thrown and I pick it off the concrete and it just keeps on running. Since 1988 I have had the brushes replaced a couple of times and bought a couple of 30.00 batteries. In 2004 I purchased another Makita drill and charger, (boy what 16 yrs will change a company) its JUNK! My Makita purchased in 1988 still has more torque than the newer drill even though its labeled with a cool sticker and boost about the high voltage ouput. The contruction of the newer drill vs the old drill, there is no comparision, the older drill is more stout, the casing is stonger and thicker and it is assembled in such a way it can be taken apart easier if repairs are needed. Its a shame companies don't care about quality anymore, all they seem to care about are their shareholders and dividens.

[Steve Nouis]

It took companys years to build up a good name and the so called management only a short time to ruin it. No such thing as intergity any more, take the money and run. Steve

[Stan Smith]

Hi Dave,

I'm not blaming B&D corporate for consumers who refuse to educate themselves, I'm blaming them for taking away from me, and everyone else, what I've always considered to be a good line of tools. What I am saying negative about B&D corporate is that they are going to be playing on a well established brand name to pull in money from an unexpecting consumer base. The average home owner does not have the experience with tools that the average member here has. They may watch DYI TV and NYW and others. From these shows they have gotten the idea that Porter Cable are professional grade tools. If B&D wanted to put out another line of lower end home owner tools they could use another brand name. Instead they chose to lower quality on a well known brand, which whether you, or I, like it or not is a calculated move designed to assure themselves of a ready made customer base for their 'new line'.

Yeah, and others point to the same thing happening with the other major brands. Didn't hear Bosch name mentioned yet though. I'm going to try and get my older tools repaired as long as I can. A cheapo router is damned dangerous IMHO.

[David Cramer]

I agree Ben and actually asked that same question on the phone. I was told that there is fine print, very fine print, aka a legal loophole. I am not an attorney and don't know one way or the other, but to me it's very misleading.

The battery repair place is a solid 45 minutes from where I live. With the price of gas and having to go there back and forth twice, you're talking about 3 hours of driving time at the very least. Gas alone could be in the $35-$45 range. It's not a free battery.

Again, sorry to hijack the thread, but Ridgid sold A LOT of tools when they came out with their "Lifetime Warranty" tools a few years back, but it really isn't lifetime as more than one of my tool buddy's found out. They thought it was no questioned asked and they'd give the emplolyee their old beat up tool and get a new one, but that was not to be. Sorry for bumming anyone out, but I was on the phone with Ridgid and that's what I was told. An HD employee verified it a few years ago.

David

[Rick Potter]

As I sit on my Chinese Schwinn bike, listening to my Chinese Capehart radio, looking at a brochure for a Chinese Oliver shaper, I can only say...I am glad this is an isolated event.

Rick Potter

[Anthony Anderson]

Quoting John Keeton: Most companies simply have to go where the market is.

Unfortunate, but true. Though the end result will not, usually, result in a long term viable company.

SMC seems to be comprised of individuals that may be considerably more discerning than the bulk of the buying public. The responders here are hardly a representative group reflecting the mass market.

Unfortunately, we have become a disposable society.

Unfortunately, again, true.

I truly think that those that spend $39 for a drill know exactly what they are getting, and are OK with that.

When I was first startin in this hobby/obsession, I bought many tools, mostly because information was not available as it is now, internet especially forums such as this one. Has I had places like this to seek advise, I would not have made as many tool buying mistakes, which also would have saved money. So, I guess I would have not been in the 'majority' of those who would have been okay with that $39 drill, it was because I didn't know any better or do my research. I simply walked into Sears and bought, based mainly (I know this sounds absurd now) on the Craftsman name recognition:D.

We have only ourselves to blame. The number of individuals that demand quality is diminishing. Capitalism does work, it is just that the end result does not always please everyone.

Very well stated John. And I feel/fear that the end result will continue to become more unpleasant.

I like your opinions. Very well put. Regards, Bill

[Harry Goodwin]

No one is more disappointed with what has happened to American craftmanship but we get what we diserve. We bad mouth our own American tools, glorify the sophisticated European and Asian counterparts paying huge prices and bad mouth the price of American tools as too high. We see those who fuss because their investments are not yielding fantastic dividends and the quality and profit are not good bed partners. I have great tools produced in US and great tools produced elsewhere and some over priced foreign stuff. . Maybe if I were willing to put up the cash US could produce the same quality. We get what we are willing to pay and we have destroyed so many great US companies. My friends are losing jobs because often I am not willing to pay for a skilled craftsman a living wage. My own two bits. Harry

[Drew Eckhardt]

I was walking around Lowe's yesterday. They have started receiving the new Porter Cable tools. They have not yet put displays out so I could not see or feel the tools. But they had the old model circular saw next to the new. The old model was $125 the new $59. Combine that with the fact the Black and Decker tools were flushed out and PC now sits in that shelf space. Is the new PC tools just the new Black and Decker? Looks to be the case.

That's better than what they did when moving from the 690 to 890 router series where the quality went down (tolerances on the sub-base mounting screw holes) but the price went up.

[Vic Castello]

Hi Dave,

I'm not blaming B&D corporate for consumers who refuse to educate themselves, I'm blaming them for taking away from me, and everyone else, what I've always considered to be a good line of tools. What I am saying negative about B&D corporate is that they are going to be playing on a well established brand name to pull in money from an unexpecting consumer base. The average home owner does not have the experience with tools that the average member here has. They may watch DYI TV and NYW and others. From these shows they have gotten the idea that Porter Cable are professional grade tools. If B&D wanted to put out another line of lower end home owner tools they could use another brand name. Instead they chose to lower quality on a well known brand, which whether you, or I, like it or not is a calculated move designed to assure themselves of a ready made customer base for their 'new line'.

Hello folks....I'm new. Nice to meet you all.

Brent....

As you well know, sadly, it's not only power tools! John Deere is now selling "mass market" lawn tractors at Home Depot. I'm told by people in the know that they simply aren't of the same quality as in the past. So, Deere is now running the risk of ruining their hard earned reputation for making the best in the business. Year's ago...many of us saw how our beloved Lionel Trains went down the tubes, until another company took them over and restored the quality.

Now, didn't this also happen to Rockwell power tools many years ago??? I was considering buying a used lathe recently, and when I asked a knowledgable friend about it, he told me to forget it unless it was an older "Delta" Rockwell. He said that the later Rockwell's were inferior to the older Delta Rockwell's. It sounds as if Rockwell did the same thing that is happening to PC now!

:mad:

[Ben Rafael]

No one is more disappointed with what has happened to American craftmanship but we get what we diserve.

Dont blame me. All of my powertools are made in the USA or Europe(except for my lathe)
All of my woodworking hand tools are made in the USA, Canada or Europe.
IMO, the quality of western makers has not been overtaken by Asia and the price difference is generally not substantial(with a few exceptions).

[Jake Helmboldt]

You can get replacement parts for your ROS here.
www.ereplacementparts.com

Thanks Greg, you saved me the headache of trying to find a place with parts. Other than a dodgy switch (from day one) that sometimes turns off and on, it has and still is a good sander. Oh, and the dust collection pops off.

[Clay Thigpen]

I remember several years ago walking into a B&D store and seeing a Hybrid table saw or something that looked like one ( reminded me of the Dewalt that was just coming out) But I've never heard or read anything about it at all which I would think strange. Has anyone seen or used this thing?

[Steve Nouis]

This thread is about using a good name to sell cheap tools and I for one think the managers of these companys should be ashamed of ruining thier good name just to make money today. Steve

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I suppose it's all about profit margins. If Porter Cable survives in the lower end tool market, then they have succeeded. Home Depot and/or Lowes are now instrumental in making their success or breaking them. That has got to be scary for PC considering the damage that was done to Makita by Home Depot several years ago.

It seems like a gamble to do this, but apparently one that PC is willing to take. I can only guess that they are either loosing maket share, and/or the market for skilled craftsman tools in the US is getting smaller.

Take a look at Ryobi tools from 20 years ago. They competed with the big boys. Tools like the JMK-100 biscuit joiner were more advanced than the Porter Cable 555 biscuit joiner. The RE600 router was a solid 3hp plunge router that was one of the first to sport electronic speed control and softstart. Ryobi was also one of the first offerers of a 10" portable planer well before Delta, and a decent 10" portable worksite saw.

Then, one day, Ryobi dropped from the higher end of life and sought to compete with B&D, Skill, and Craftsman. As a fool of habit, I bought some of their cheaper tools and quickly learned a lesson. :)

But, Ryobi is still here today. That's what matters most to them. And, the US consumer made it happen.

It's a sad story for those who enjoy decent tools. It's a success story for the business person that never held a tool in his or her hand.

-Jeff :)

[Brent Smith]

It's a sad story for those who enjoy decent tools. It's a success story for the business person that never held a tool in his or her hand.
-Jeff :)

Hi Jeff,

I can't imagine summing it up any better than that.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Is the new PC tools just the
new Black and Decker? Looks to be the case.

Yes it is. B&D bought 'em and have set about K-Mart-izing them into trash bin specials.

I don't think I'll buy another PC tool again.

[Ben Rafael]

This is actually an opportunity for quality tool makers.

[Wilbur Pan]

SMC seems to be comprised of individuals that may be considerably more discerning than the bulk of the buying public. The responders here are hardly a representative group reflecting the mass market.

Especially since there are also many posts on SMC that I see that are along the lines of, "I can't believe Widgetco is charging $xxx.xx for their new thingamabob! I can get a thingamabob at Harbor Freight for a lot less! What a ripoff!"

If SMC, which in some ways probably self-selects for the "discerning" woodworker, whatever that might be, and still has a number of posters that tend to make statements like the one above, I can only imagine what the attitude of the general populace is like.

[Stan Smith]

Especially since there are also many posts on SMC that I see that are along the lines of, "I can't believe Widgetco is charging $xxx.xx for their new thingamabob! I can get a thingamabob at Harbor Freight for a lot less! What a ripoff!"

If SMC, which in some ways probably self-selects for the "discerning" woodworker, whatever that might be, and still has a number of posters that tend to make statements like the one above, I can only imagine what the attitude of the general populace is like.

I think that people who make statements like that are really not experienced woodworkers. They will learn the differences soon enough.

[Denny Rice]

I think that people who make statements like that are really not experienced woodworkers. They will learn the differences soon enough.


Stan I could not agree with you more. You get what you pay for, if HF is their line of tools so be it, but I do not like replacing tools when I can buy quality tools that will last for years if not decades. Thats what is wrong with the American consumer today, the do not demand quality, we live in a Wal-Mart society a throw away society.

[Bill White]

when Wal Mart was set on "proudly made in America", My Craftsman air compresser (still runnin') came with a Leeson motor, Stanley stuff was top drawer.
Now let me get back to my Grizz table saw hooked to my HF dust collector to cut the chinese plywood, fill up my tank with Saudi oil-based gasoline, open a bottle of French wine, cook a fish caught God knows where........
Oh well....
Bill

[Stan Smith]

Stan I could not agree with you more. You get what you pay for, if HF is their line of tools so be it, but I do not like replacing tools when I can buy quality tools that will last for years if not decades. Thats what is wrong with the American consumer today, the do not demand quality, we live in a Wal-Mart society a throw away society.

And a big ditto back to you. Sometimes you are stuck buying cheap tools if you really need a particular one and that's all you can afford. I had to buy a cheap elec chain saw once to clear our street of a downed tree. I have some cheapo chisels and other tools in the past, but the difference between those and quality of say Lie Nielsen is huge. What a pleasure to use a nice Lie Nielsen plane or a Fein multitool.

[Pat Germain]

I saw it first hand working in the tool section of a box store. People want the cheapest tool available.

Many people want the cheapest example of anything. Years ago, when I actually shopped at K-Mart and WalMart, I was always amazed that the cheapest examples almost everything were typically sold out. VCRS, TVs, clothes irons, bicycles, you name it. There's a big section of the population who will go straight to the cheapest example without any other thought.

I think a typical scenario is Joe Sixpack sitting in front of the TV and being nagged by Mrs. Sixpack to fix something or build something. After wrestling with an internal conflict between laziness and masculinity, masculitinity wins out; but just barely. Joe realizes he needs a tool to do the job. He drives to the local home center, grabs the cheapest example and brings it home. He fights with the cheap tool. He sloppily completes his project and heads back to the easy chair and ESPN2. The cheap tool gathers dust in the garage and that's that.

Manufacturers have come to notice this. So, they make cheap stuff and they sell lots of it.

[Mike Wellner]

Their dovetail jig is now made in 'Nam!

[Harley Reasons]

The B&D/Dewalt history:
DeWalt is a world-wide brand of power tools (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_tools) for the construction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction) and woodworking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodworking) industries. The original company was started in 1924 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924) by Raymond E. DeWalt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_E._DeWalt), the inventor of the radial arm saw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_arm_saw). The company grew quickly and was reorganized in 1947 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947), manufacturing radial arm saws and other stationary woodworking machines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodworking_machine). After buying the company in 1949 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949), American Machine & Foundry Co. Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Machinery_and_Foundry) sold it to Black & Decker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_%26_Decker) in 1960 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960). Black & Decker divested itself of the radial arm saw manufacturing branch in 1989 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989), selling it to two executives. Radial arm saws that use the original DeWalt design can still be obtained from the Original Saw Co..
In 1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992), Black & Decker started a major effort to rebrand its professional quality and high-end power tools (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_tools) to DeWalt. Currently, DeWalt manufactures and sells more than 200 different power hand-tools and 800 accessories.
In 1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994), DeWalt took over the German wood working power tool producer ELU. DeWalt increased their line of tools using ELU's technology.

If you read about the new line of PC tools that Lowes is planning to sell they are targeted to compete with HD's Ryobi line of tools in both set components and price points.
At the HD BORG, we are still able to special order any of the better lines of the PC tools. HD is still a distributor for PC and nothing I've read tells me there may be a change in store.

[Karl Brogger]

I'm still pissed that the 504 beltsander has been discontinued.

[John Callahan]

................ and the Model 100 and 310 routers, the 126/9118 planer, their corded drill line ...............:mad:

[Homer Faucett]

My e-mail to B&D/PC/Delta/DW a few days ago:

I received your promotional e-mail touting the new line of Porter Cable 18v Power Tools. I have only been woodworking for about 10 years, but have enjoyed my Porter Cable routers, belt sanders, circular saw, and dovetail jig. Porter Cable always stood for rugged quality in my mind, and I've been happy with the performance I received from my tools.

After seeing the "new" 18 volt tools that Porter Cable "proudly introduced", I am sad to see how the giants have fallen. To my mind, these are little more than rebranded Firestorm or "Joe Homeowner" tools that I would expect to buy and throw away in a few years with regular use. Certainly, I do not believe it is a mere coincidence that the big box stores have dropped the Firestorm brand at the same time these new PC tools came out. I am not impressed, and I vote with my wallet. I was looking over the 18 volt offerings and decided that instead of having Porter Cable as a serious choice, I guess I'm now down to buying Bosch, Milwaukee, or Hilti for serious purchases.

I hope that I am wrong, and that some of the new PC power tools will bring back the quality we are used to seeing. Certainly, the more recently produced Omnijig is a great quality tool that deserves the PC name. These 18 volt tools, however, do not.

Here's the response from "DeWalt Customer Service".


Thank you for contacting Porter-Cable.
I regret you see our current 18V cordless line as low quality.
When B&D purchased Porter-Cable and Delta there was some duplication of products. Those items were identified and projects were started to consolidate the product lines. We are attempting to keep the best features of all our brands in each product group and combine them into new and updated products. The new products are being branded as they best fit our markets and to avoid direct competition between our brands. We believe this will enhance our ability to provide the absolute best value in each of our product categories.
We have thousands (actually tens of thousands) of customers that have purchased Porter-Cable and Delta branded products since the sale and are very pleased.
We have recently announced significantly enhanced warranties on these products. If the product were of lesser quality it would not make good business sense to extend the warranty.
Many of our Delta and DeWalt products are specifically made to meet the demands of constant heavy use in industrial applications. The new 18V Porter-Cable products are being targeted to the tradesman who requires a high-value, reliable product for frequent, but not constant use, and the high-end do-it-yourself user. That line might not hold up to the rigors of a full-use industrial environment. I can assure you however that these products are not a reinvention of the Black & Decker Firestorm line. Most of these products were rebuilt from the ground up. They did however replace the Firestorm products on the shelf at Lowes. This was done to offer a better quality at a reasonable price to the end users.
Thank you for your feedback regarding this new line of products. We look forward to serving you in the future. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Regards,
Stephanie
Delta/Porter Cable

I think the response is pretty telling. DeWalt will be the quality tool line, PC the new Firestorm of our age. Sad day. I love how they vehemently deny that the PC tools are rebadged Firestorms, but go on to admit that the tools are aimed at the same market as Firestorm tools. Okay, it's not exactly the same as your Firestorm line, but it's aimed at the same market and designed by the same folks. How different are they really?

Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate that you have to buy the most expensive tool to do woodworking. But it is sad to see a quality manufacturer turned into a throw-away brand.

If you don't like it, let them know.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Yep they are going to compete with Ryobi....be aware that Milwaukee is now under the same roof as Ryobi. That leaves that whole line useless to someone like me. Sad to see the mark go downhill for sure, but hey, they will fill the gap of B&D I suppose. You can also be sure there'll be hundreds who swear by them down the road much like the fans of Ridgid, Ryobi and Milwaukee do now so I guess it's all relative.

[Harley Reasons]

While we all bemoan the fact that B&D appears to be raping the old line PC name, we are overlooking the underlying reason for doing it.
Competition between the BORG's is fierce. Both of the big guys offer price matching less 10%. With the orange BORG having Ridgid, Ryobi, Milwaukee & Makita as exclusive house brands, the blue BORG had to counteract to compete. They have Hitachi and did have Firestorm (which we all know sucked) and now are adding PC to the mix.
The bottom line is that we consumers are getting the shaft because the price match policy is being rendered a sham.
This is not only happening in tools but through out the store. Just look around the next time your at a BORG and see how many items they carry that can be priced matched.

[Pete Clifford]

Yep they are going to compete with Ryobi....be aware that Milwaukee is now under the same roof as Ryobi. That leaves that whole line useless to someone like me. Sad to see the mark go downhill for sure, but hey, they will fill the gap of B&D I suppose. You can also be sure there'll be hundreds who swear by them down the road much like the fans of Ridgid, Ryobi and Milwaukee do now so I guess it's all relative.
I am surprised at the number of posters who feel that Ridgid tools are not of the same quality as some of the other brands e.g. the "old" PC, Dewalt, Makita, etc. Although a weekend woodworker am I, I have quite a few Ridgid tools that serve me well so far, touch wood (:D pun intended). For example, the Ridgid 3650 TS is owned by many members of this board, and for the price it is an excellent saw and those who own one like them. In addition, the Ridgid OSS, lunchbox planer and 5" ROS are consistently ranked amongst the top in tool reviews and by owners. Just like any tool line, Ridgid has some stars and some duds.

Likewise, the Ryobi brand serves a niche within our greater WW fraternity/sorority. Ryobi allows one to "get into the WW game" without spending a fortune. Some of the Ryobi owners will move up to higher priced tools with more capability/more durability, but for others they will serve their owners needs just fine. A friend of mine who is a fine craftsman likes the Ryobi cordless tools because the batteries aren't outrageously priced and they fit all his tools.

Like the others, I too will be watching PC to see if they cheap out the line completely and if they are the new "Firestorm". However, not everyone can afford a 5 HP cabinet saw and a shop full of Systainers, so keep in mind that the tool companies are trying to provide multiple price points.

[Vic Castello]

I've been thinking about getting into turning as a friend of mine has volunteered to teach me how to do it. He said....if you think it's for you, and you decide to by a lathe, go online and find a good one that's 30-40 years old, because they were much better then. Based on what you guys are saying here.....he's probably right!

[Curt Harms]

If I were a tradesman working in some of the "value priced" (depressed) parts of large cities, I might not worry about tools lasting dozens of years 'cause they're likely going to "disappear" within a year or two. As long as the tool is good enough to do what I need done, lifetime quality probably costs more money than it's worth.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I've been thinking about getting into turning as a friend of mine has volunteered to teach me how to do it. He said....if you think it's for you, and you decide to by a lathe, go online and find a good one that's 30-40 years old, because they were much better then. Based on what you guys are saying here.....he's probably right!


Vic,

I dont' know that that holds true with lathes. Lathes have come a long way in the last 30 years with the advent of electronic variable speed. It's invaluable when first roughing out a large bowl blank. You don't have to chase a lathe around the room while roughing. Also there are a number of manufaturers out there......Robust.....Oneway that IMHO make a lathe that meets the standards of yesteryear. There are a couple of other companies that make some stout accurate lathes too.

The problem with older lathes is finding replacement parts and their low end speed and how quickly they will change speeds....changing belts instead of dialing it with a dial. The older lathes had longevity but they had their disadvantages too. It really boils down to what you are willing to deal with.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks....what it really boils down to is the buyer and economics.


If most of the consumers are shopping the "Borg" and shopping price and not quality....Well, the manufacturers and their bean counters can track that those numbers. We sold 80 million $99 widgets and only 29 of the $129 widgets. They both do the same thing. We pay $45 to build the $99 widget and $89 to build the widget we sell for $129. So, in the end, we make more money on the $89 widget. It wears out quicker, so, we sell more of them.

Now if they never sold the $99 widget, they would quit making them.

Companies are in the business of making money. They will build and sell that which the public buys. If the public refuses to buy junk, the company won't sell it very long.

So, to a certain extent, we the public determine the cost and availability of what we buy.

[Dave Lehnert]

Go into any Harbor Freight tool store. All registers are running and lines at each one at there sidewalk sale.
They are not in line to by a Porter Cable (old school) or Bosch.

I work in retail and customers shop price. Price is king and always will be.

[Denny Rice]

Go into any Harbor Freight tool store. All registers are running and lines at each one at there sidewalk sale.
They are not in line to by a Porter Cable (old school) or Bosch.

I work in retail and customers shop price. Price is king and always will be.

Dave I agree with you to a point. The problem being "most" people who are walking into harbor freight are people looking for a throw away tool or a tool that will get used for one job and tossed into the abiss of a rusty toolbox. Most of HF stuff is below quality standards, and if your looking to buy something that is not used a lot in a shop thats fine, but I have been a mechanic for over 20 years and will tell you "you get what you pay for". I have purchased stuff of HF quality over the years and it always ends up in the bottom of a trash can or out by the curb waiting on the trash truck. It did not take me long to figure out quality does mean something even if you have to pay a little more upfront. I have purchased a lot of Snap-on and Matco tools in the last twenty years and yes I have a 15 year old ratchet that cost me over 100.00 back then, but it has never failed and I use that ratchet everyday, and the thing is if it were to ever fail the Snap-on man will replace that ratchet free of charge. This is how I feel about my woodworking tools too, I don't want to purchase junk at HF or one of the "big boxes" when I can get a better tool that will last for years even the rest of my life. A good example of this is my Makita 9.6V cordless drill that I have had since 1988. I cannot kill it.

[Gary Elore]

I've got a Makita 9.6 volt that just will not die also.

IMHO - Corporations that take a well respected brand and cheapen their product to augment the bottom line, are indeed using deceptive practices. They may make their profits in the short term, however, they will create a great deal of customer resentment that the brand may never recover from.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

You are exactly right Gary. It has happened to both Ryobi and Ridgid brands and it is happening to Milwaukee as we speak. PC will be next in line for the honor.

I know a guy who runs the local Home Depot where we buy most everything. He says the returns are already piling up for Milwaukee....many more than he has ever seen before and he tells me that it's nationwide....just like the two other brands I just mentioned.

Get ready Lowe's!

[Harley Reasons]

You are exactly right Gary. It has happened to both Ryobi and Ridgid brands and it is happening to Milwaukee as we speak. PC will be next in line for the honor.

I knwo a guy who runs the local Home Depot where we buy most everything. He says the returns are already piling up for Milwaukee....many more than he has ever seen before and he tells me that it's nationwide....just like the two other brands I just mentioned.

Get ready Lowe's!

Kelly,
At the HD BORG where I work we're not seeing that many Milwaukee's being returned. We see a few of the Ridgids coming back but that's to be expected with the number we sell.
We go out of our way to make a customer happy if he/she brings any tool back. Our SM has authorized us to make the customer happy and take care of them if at all possible by exchanging tools or setting up expedited repairs.
As to the Milwaukee's, I think (IMHO) there will be some updated tools from them before Christmas. So be on the look out for that.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Sounds like you guys are nicer than our local Despots. I've seen the new SCMS that Milwaukee is rolling out and it really looks great. But given the history I have had with the two....no matter what any of them bring to the mix, I won't be buying.

[Neal Clayton]

i guess we should hope that they maintain the routers and nailers via alternative retaliers (like the milwaukee 3.5 hp router, which is fine, and can't be bought at home depot, or the 'green' makita stuff).

either way, the only reason this stuff works is the fact that the borgs have managed to drive out lumberyards and local hardware/supply stores in many locations. the reason that home depot is vastly larger than lowes is the contractor business in those areas where there is no longer an alternative, and as that relates to tools, most milwaukee and dewalt stuff is passable plus they have makita. this is lowes attempt to compete, it seems.

i would say the most likely to suffer, based on the above, is the nail guns. things most likely to be broken on a jobsite that need to be replaced while the crew is at lunch are not routers, by and large. drills, nailguns, skilsaws are probably the most volume. that's where lowes will want to compete and that's where B&D will look to make the quick buck.

[Denny Rice]

When I was 6 years old selling Kool-Aid in the neighborhood I learned a good business lesson.
Get the money now.

Gary,
Not to get too far off subject but in the 1970's there was a motorcycle company that thought that way.... i.e. Harley-Davision. Their bright idea was to let a company that made bowling balls for a living run a company that built quality motorcycles. It almost cost them everything, it took the men and women of HD to build a quality product again and tell AMF to go build their bowling balls somewhere else. Porter Cable now has become the AMF of the woodworking tool companies.

[Karl Brogger]

Not all of us shop at the box stores. I make a living with my tools, the balk the small stuff is Porter Cable. Is there other stuff that is better, (pre-buy out), and do the same job? Probably, but you get used to certain tools. I don't like change. They're probably well on their way to ending all of thier industrial tools, like the 504 belt sander.

Is it just me or are all products turning to poop? I've got a Powermatic table saw purchased new in 2004. I've had nothing but troubles. I've used that same model that was 20+ years old, and ran hard every single day with no problems, and zero maintenance.

I burned up a trim router the other day. It had hardly been used. I bought it specifically to put a 1/8 roundover bit in it for doing the top edge of drawers. That is the only thing that router has done. Probably 18months old, and has probably routed the top of less than 300 drawers. Stuff like pisses me off. I'd changed the bit in it twice. It should last a tad longer than the bit. Or maybe I have screwy expectations.

[Dave Lehnert]

The Lowe's in town had the new Porter Cable tools out on display. If you know your tools you will not mistake the new PC for the old school PC. Just by looks you can tell it is just retaged Firestorm grade product.

I know some have a hard time seeing PC name go the way it has but knowing all this what is the difference if it is gray and named PC or now it is Yellow and called DeWalt if it is a quality product.