Anybody ever made a (Japanese-style) wooden pull plane?

[Ben Fleis]

I know some people use Krenov planes in the pull style, since the blade location is fairly neutral. But all the japanese planes I've seen (limited quantity) had the blad positioned toward the back, which makes sense for the pulling stroke. Has anybody built one of these before? Have any suggestions for where to start if trying to build one?

-b

[David DeCristoforo]

You can make one in a similar way to how Krenov makes his. But, you need to cut a wedge shaped slot for the blade in each of the outer layers and then position the pin to allow the sub-blade to be wedged in. The blade needs to fit the slot so that when it is tapped into the slot it fits tightly enough to hold without a wedge. So that is kind of critical and will vary from blade to blade. So you need to have the blade on hand.

The other way is to chisel the whole thing out of a solid block which is much more difficult. I have several that I made years ago and would be happy to share pictures of them. However, I would not be able to post them until Monday.

[Howard Pollack]

The Japan Woodworker has a booklet on how to do this. I'm not sure if it is listed on their website, but I'm sure they'd send it to you if it is not on the site. I think it costs about $2.00. See also http://www.daikudojo.org/Classes/20060401/ and also search http://www.japanesetools.com/phpBB2/ -Howard

[Pam Niedermayer]

Yes, one piece dai. I learned from Inomoto-san, a major dai maker for many blacksmiths, in a two-day class. Given the sole shape, it's a pretty trick business, but certainly not rocket science.

Pam

[Mike Henderson]

Unless you particularly want a Japanese style plane, why not just make a Krenov plane with the blade set further back and use it as a pull plane?

That is, use a western blade, like a Hock, instead of a laminated Japanese blade.

Mike

[Casey Gooding]

Also keep in mind that Japanese planes tend to be pitched lower, around 40* as they are usually meant for softwood. It is, however, possible to get them bedded at higher angles suitable for Western Hardwoods. So, think about what you'll be working.

[Charlie Mastro]

All these answers are good as described. I have done both and while the Krenov plane is perhaps a little easier I got the best results chopping out the dia (plane body) and using a Japanese plane blade.

This is the traditional Japanese plane I kade using Eastern Rock Maple.
Notice the shape of the ramp the blade rests on. It's curved to match the blade. That's why you need the blade first before you start.

[Charlie Mastro]

Since I can't seem to figure out how to add text after I include the pictures I'll just continue here. (Any help with this issue wiould be appreciated PM me) So this is a Krenov style Japanese pull plane bedded at 55 degrees. Single blade, no chipbreaker, made out of a south pacific island hardwood I made my bed out of called Affilaly (sp). Anyway that doesn't matter,. I would connsider making the dia thinner so s to be more like a real Japanese plane but as yet I haven't used it much.

[David Keller NC]

Hey Charlie - Nice website! (Can't resist googling signatures on net forums). The hand mirror was very impressive - carving ebony isn't easy.

[Charlie Mastro]

Thanks Dave, If I remember corectly it's East Indian Rosewood but an especially black piece ( it varies like a lot of ebony) and I'm sure some what easier to carve than ebony. I'll get to find out soon because I have a jewerly case to build for a silver smith out of ebony. He will be making all the hardware and I will be making the dovetailed carring case that will be something along the lines of my whale tail stool.

[Dale Osowski]

This may be a perfect time to take a class. I know they are looking to get more students and you could learn from the best, http://www.japanesetools.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1771&sid=b88815efc30f848273601cade7a7691f

[Ben Fleis]

As far as classes I would love to take them, but I'm already a student at the CFC, and have little remaining money for add ons. However, I have lots of shop time, and time to experiment with affordable things... which means

I will likely try a Krenov style plane w/ the blade seated further back.

Charlie -- how did your home made version compare with the purchased ones you have?

Thanks!

-ben

[Charlie Mastro]

Charlie -- how did your home made version compare with the purchased ones you have?

Thanks!

-ben

The one I made is just about my favorite plane. The Krenov style high angle not so much. It is as good as any of my purchased Japanese planes but I don't have any Japanese planes that cost more than $200 so I'm sure there are other Japanese planes that will cut better I just don't own them. ;)

Because the true Japanese style plane used a good Japanese blade and it was thicker than the one in my Knenov I'm sure that's why it preforms so much better. So I think the only way to make the Krenov style better is to use a thicker Japanese blade but for you're first plane use what ever blade you like. You'll find them so easy to make you'll want to make more than one.

[Mike Cutler]

Since I can't seem to figure out how to add text after I include the pictures I'll just continue here. (Any help with this issue wiould be appreciated PM me)

Charlie

Upload all of your pic's first, it's a little easier if you do, and then follow Aaron's instruction in this thread.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=25115

By the way, nice work on the planes, they look like they took a it of work to produce.

[Charlie Mastro]

Charlie

Upload all of your pic's first, it's a little easier if you do, and then follow Aaron's instruction in this thread.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=25115

By the way, nice work on the planes, they look like they took a it of work to produce.

Thanks I looked up that link. maybe that will work on my blog as I seem to have the same problem there.

They really aren't that hard to do especially the Krenov style, you should try it.;)

[David DeCristoforo]

Here are a couple of the Japanese style planes I made some years ago.
http://www.daviddecristoforo.com/Misc/planes_1.jpg
The one on the left (not made by me) is a "typical" red oak plane block (or dai) although the blades are anything but typical. The block is about 11.5" long. The middle plane is made of quarter sawn cocobolo and is about 18" long. The plane on the right is quarter sawn East Indian rosewood and is 26" long. I made these because I was unable to fine any Japanese made planes with what we would consider a "long jointer" configuration.

The sole of the long plane has a slight wave pattern to reduce friction. You can see the contact points in this pic:
http://www.daviddecristoforo.com/Misc/planes_3.jpg

The blades in these planes are all by respected artisan blacksmiths although none of them were ever available for sale in this country. (I got them through trades with a Japanese carpenter who needed shaper cutters !?!?). But these particular blades are very "special":
http://www.daviddecristoforo.com/Misc/blades_1.jpg
They are called Horyu or "Dragon's Treasure", forged by Misao Miyamoto and are inlaid with hard steel at the strike points to prevent the metal from deforming after repeated adjustment. These have nothing to do with making plane bodies but I just thought you might like to see them....

[Ben Fleis]

Here are a couple of the Japanese style planes I made some years ago.

The sole of the long plane has a slight wave pattern to reduce friction. You can see the contact points in this pic:

But these particular blades are very "special":
They are called Horyu or "Dragon's Treasure", forged by Misao Miyamoto and are inlaid with hard steel at the strike points to prevent the metal from deforming after repeated adjustment. These have nothing to do with making plane bodies but I just thought you might like to see them....

I do I do! Seeing them is excellent, along with the resulting planes you've made. Gorgeous.

Regarding the "wave" pattern -- is this somewhat akin to the ripples introduced by a machine jointer when running the board to fast? And did you ever tinker with corrugating in the typical stanley style? I have considered doing that on one of the Krenov style planes I am building, but didn't know if it would serve much purpose, since wood generally seems to slide nicely along on wood. Any further thoughts on the matter?

Thanks again for sharing the pics. It's enough to make me consider blowing $500 for that weekend course... but I suspect good fiscal sense will get the best of me.

-b

[David DeCristoforo]

"...ripples introduced by a machine jointer..."

Well... I guess. The idea is to have several contact points so that the entire sole is not in contact with the stock. It is a very mild "wave" created by scraping away a tiny bit of wood in between the contact points which you can see in the picture because they are more "polished" than the rest of the sole. We're only talking a few thousandths at the most.

[Charlie Mastro]

Beautiful blades David, I have never seen anything like that and also never seen the serial numbers before on any blades. Nice planes too.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Thanks again for sharing the pics. It's enough to make me consider blowing $500 for that weekend course... but I suspect good fiscal sense will get the best of me.

Good fiscal sense dictates that you take the class. For example, you could then buy an off the shelf 54 mm plane and make a long dai to use the blade in a jointer, saving hundreds. Or you could buy a plane with a worn out/damaged dai and make a new one for the blade. And you'll also learn how to tune a Japanese plane properly.

Pam

[mike rawl]

Hi Ben,

I hope that you are enjoying CFC. It's a great school. I had a great time when I was in the 12 week class. I had a great group of classmates and I don't think I ever laughed so much in my life.

Making your own plane is the way to go. Making your own planes is something everyone should do. With Japanese planes this is especially true. There is a good chance that you will ruin a dia while you learn how to tune it correctly. I know I did. And it is easier, especially in the States, to make the replacement yourself.

While I have no doubt that the dai class is worth while, I do not think that it is necessary. I think the best way to start is with a laminated dai a la Krenov. This will allow you to make planes quicker (at first) and will make failed attempts less discouraging. Seth Janofsky makes Japanese style planes this way and there is an old "Woodwork" magazine that discusses his planes. I am sure CFC has it in its library.

The key to the dai is to make it the wedge shaped slots for the blade too tight. Run down the street and get yourself a plane making float from the LN store. Rub the back of the plane with a pencil and tap it firmly (and maybe a little more) into the new dai. Tap out the blade. Based on the blades distance from the mouth hog out the the areas where the pecil transfers to the dai. If you have a long way to go be, aggressive; if its close be delicate. Do not touch the area that establishes the blade angle. hogging out the the wood on the blade bed will alow you to work your way into a proper fit and it will allow you to curve the bed of the dai to fit the curve on the back of the blade, as it should.

Here is a link to an old Steve Night web page that shows him making a plane with slots cut in the laminated sides. A laminated Japanese plane is made basically the same way.
http://showcase.netins.net/web/iabonsai/knight/index.html

Have fun,
Mike

[mike rawl]

Dave, that Horyu plane is a beauty. In case you are curious, similar blades are not easy to find over here either. I have only seen them once at the Miki City tool festival and no where else. You are truly lucky to have them.

Mike

[David DeCristoforo]

"Good fiscal sense dictates that you take the class."

Plus, the opportunity to learn from a master of the caliber of the guy who teaches this class may not be open forever. There is something magical about watching these guys work. Magical but very humbling! I would consider the five bills "invested" not "dropped"....

[Dave Anderson NH]

I know I'm gonna get crucified for this one, but oh well.

If the craftsman makes both the plane body and the blade does that make him a ...tool and dai maker?;)

[Mike Henderson]

Here is a link to an old Steve Knight web page that shows him making a plane with slots cut in the laminated sides. A laminated Japanese plane is made basically the same way.
http://showcase.netins.net/web/iabonsai/knight/index.html

Have fun,
Mike
For anyone who looked at Steve's web page (the link given above), what are the threaded inserts used for? Any ideas?

Mike

[Charlie Mastro]

Adjustable mouth.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...does that make him a ...tool and dai maker?..."

Oooooo. Baaaad (insert rimshot here).

But actually the blacksmiths who forge these blades probably would not have a clue how to cut the blocks for them. Traditionally, it's all very specialized.

[Tom Godley]

Wow -- If I was able to go to that class in MA later this month I would go!

But, those days are a no go for me. :(

[Manny Hernandez]

Beautiful blades David, I have never seen anything like that and also never seen the serial numbers before on any blades. Nice planes too.

Once upon a time I was told that number, 1099224, is the equivalent of a patent number. Now Dave's picture confirms that because that same number is on my set of blades. That blade set is still being made. A fellow Daiku-Dojo member ordered one directly from Japan about a year ago. The vendor from Osaka, Tomohito-san, has one listed on his website. It's interesting that we were told Miyamoto-san stopped the habit of stamping that number on every set because the carpenters buying them did not like it. So, now it's optional when you order the blade set.

Manny

[Charlie Mastro]

That's very interesting Manny. Thanks