Is Festool really that good?

[Karl Brogger]

One of my Milwaukee 10" mitre saws it taking a crap on me. Are these really worth $1300?

[guy knight]

when i need a new csms it will be a kapex

[Peter Quinn]

Karl, stop screwing around with miter saws and get a Griggio slider with the mitering out rigger.:D

Seriously though, is there an outlet where you can check one out? I use a makita at work and a small hitachi. Can't see what the extra $800 gets you having demoed one at a woodcraft. Nice saw yes, but $1300?

[Brandon Shew]

One of my Milwaukee 10" mitre saws it taking a crap on me. Are these really worth $1300?


Is a Mercedes E-Class really worth $52,000? Maybe not when you can buy a Lexus ES for $34,000. There are certainly differences, but almost $20K worth??? Same goes for a nice Makita or Bosch vs. the Kapex (which is 3x the price). You have to decide if the pros are worth the money.

[Eric Larsen]

The S-Class has more leg room. :D


Is a Mercedes E-Class really worth $52,000? Maybe not when you can buy a Lexus ES for $34,000. There are certainly differences, but almost $20K worth??? Same goes for a nice Makita or Bosch vs. the Kapex (which is 3x the price). You have to decide if the pros are worth the money.

[Wade Lippman]

One of my Milwaukee 10" mitre saws it taking a crap on me. Are these really worth $1300?

I've had one for a couple months and love it. It is compact, leaves a perfect edge, sets accurately and easily, the laser and dust collection actually work pretty well.

If I had more room in my shop so I could put in a good DC hood for it, and had the room for a standard slider I don't think I could justify the expense. But I don't have that room, so the Kapex is great. (supposedly it also makes big cuts more accurately than other sliders, but I haven't used the others enough to have an opinion on that).

If I had to pay full retail I am not sure I could have justified it, but MS was kind enough to chip in $250.

There have been complaints that it isn't as well made as other Festools. My throat plate has buckled; apparently it got bigger and popped up. That isn't a good omen, but otherwise it is great.

[jason lambert]

I own one and I aggree with wade. It is the best out there but the price is kind of steap for what it is and it is not perfect. I really don't get much better cuts than my old dewalt, but it does save space better dust collection and is a nicer saw.

[Per Swenson]

Karl,

I just took the liberty of checking your profile before I answered.

You are a cabinet maker. That means your a pro.
A 1300 dollar miter saw ain't for everybody, but when your livelihood
depends on the tools you use daily, then the kapex is a excellent choice.

Per

[Matt Hutchinson]

I have been working at the local Woodcraft store for about 5 weeks now. I don't know everything about Festool yet, but I have had the opportunity to use the Kapex and get familiarized with its features. There is no miter saw out there like it. It is a cross between a SCMS and an RAS (it has the ability to cut repeatable grooves), and the dust collection is over 91%! (There's a whole lot more to it, but I am not here to sell you a saw. :))

But what Per has said basically clarifies the real issue. If you are a hobbyist, a $1300 'cutoff' saw doesn't seem within the budget. But if you are a pro, especially if you need on site precision, it becomes a different ball game. A co-worker at the place of my employment made an excellent point. If it will make you money, $1300 is a reasonable expense. It can do many things that a typical saw simply cannot at a quality that's unmatched.

Will it make you money?

Hutch

[Tim Malyszko]

I am an 8 month Festool Convert and a hobbiest who also does a ton around the house and an occassional project for a neighbor. I currently use a Dewalt DW708 and have no intentions of replacing it unless it dies on me. With that being said, if I had to replace it, I would go with the Kapex. I've demoed it at a couple of our local Festool distributors and it is just one sweet machine. The two things I really like about it is the footprint and the dust collection.

I can make nearly all the same cuts with it as I could with my DW708 (the Dewalt can cut wider boards, but I normally make these cuts on a tablesaw anyway) and it's footprint is smaller, making it easier to move from one place to another.
Right now, I had to move my DW708 from the shop to the basement to install a ceiling and frame some new basement windows. What sucks about it is that there is dust all over my basemet workbench and tools and a layer all over the basement. While the Kapex dust collection isn't quite as good as the Festool Sanders, it's still significantly better than the DW708. Being able to easily move the Kapex with my CT-22 vac is a big plus for me.
I purchased my first Festool Sander 8 months ago and have since purchased 2 additional sanders, the jigsaw and the TS55 and find myself always reaching for the Festools. They are my favorite tools in the shop and are so well engineered.

As a hobbiest, some people my think I'm crazy for paying a premium for Festool, but I look at them as a long term investment. I don't ever plan on replacing any of my Festools until I wear them out, and judging by the way they are built, that won't be for decades. When you look at it that way, the lifetime price isn't too bad.

On one hand, If I were in your shoes and had $1,300 to spend, I would go with the Kapex in a heartbeat. On the the other hand, If I only had say half that to spend and needed something right away, I would stay away from Festool as it's not worth going into debt over any tool purchase.

Good luck with your decision.

[Larry Fox]

Your title is inquiring about Festool but this thread seems to be about the Kapex. I took the plunge a while back and currently have two sanders, a CT-22 and a Domino. About the only tool they make that I don't lust after is the Kapex because as a hobby guy I can't justify $1300 for a cutoff saw and the planer as I just don't see it's purpose.

If you have never used one you definitely owe it to yourself to check them out at a local distributor. In my opinion, they have several very important features.

1) Quality. Hands-down the best quality tools in their class.
2) They operate as a system. This is important to me because between kids activities, day job and just stuff my shop time is very precious. Stuff just works together the way that you wuld want / expect it to.
3) There are awide range of accessories available and they are all part of the system.
4) They do carry a hefty price tag for sure but I actually think they offer a great value proposition when you take everything into consideration. As a 42-year old hobby guy, I expect these these tools to last me the rest of my life. Maybe that won't turn out to be true but the quality of the tool makes me think they will.
5) Dust control. They prettu much eat their own dust which is fantastic. Saves me shop time as I don't need to clean up after them.

[Ben Rafael]

I have a 50 year old no name miter saw with zero dust collection. With a good blade it will make a clean and accurate cut. I've used it to make fine picture frames and it does as good a job at it as possible for any saw. The miters line up perfectly unless I screw up. I dont understand everbodys fetish with hyperaccuracy. We're cutting wood, it changes it dimensions within minutes of being cut, only a machinist cares about 1/100th of an inch since in metals it matters.
Unless you use a miter saw daily I'd get one that costs around $300.
For $1300 you can get a really nice tablesaw.

[Per Swenson]

Ben,

I don't want be picky, but I really have to disagree with

your suggestion that accuracy is not crucial in my line of work.
High end custom hardwood installs.

Now, no doubt you may have a old saw, but the first motorized portable miter saw was made by Rockwell/delta in 1966. And they were far from accurate.

Try this at home, with any miter saw. Cut 4 isosceles triangles out of the same stock and try to assemble them into a flat square.
Guarantee you the last one ain't going to fit and will need to be fiddled with.

The 1300 dollar kapex does this flawlessly and frankly for 1300 bucks it better.

I get paid for fit and finish, and I would go broke trucking my sawstop to the jobs.

PS

Now if your talking a 50 year old radial arm saw, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Per

[Ben Rafael]

My saw was bought by my father in the early 60's from a friend of his who got it in the late 50's. It is a no name saw and is accurate enough to make perfect miters. Rockwell might have been the first to mass produce the portable, but they certainly weren't the first to make them. These were made in Los Angeles in some quantity.
Anyway, my comment is that 1/100th of an inch generally doesn't matter since the wood will likely move more than that anyway.
People have produced flawless miters before kapex and will continue to do so. I'm sure the kapex has it's place, but my guess is that for most people it is a waste of money.

[Matt Ocel]

The best thing is it doesn't use much lectricity!


Karl, Seriously - If you want you can take a Kapex for a test run up in Burnsville at Rockler.
Corner of 42 and 5. A little NW of Buck Hill.

[Burt Waddell]

Matt,

I've noticed a lot of topics on the Festool owners group forum about the kapex. A visit there would give you a lot of information.

Burt

[J. Z. Guest]

I'm sure it is, but it is that pesky Law of Diminishing Returns again.

It costs 2-3X as much as the other pro-grade saws. Is it 2-3X better? Probably not, to most of us. But is it better? Probably so.

The Mercedes:Lexus analogy earlier was pretty much on.

In the gun world, is an HK twice as good as a Ruger? No, but it is better in a lot of ways.

Snowboarding: Is a Burton 2X better than generic? No, but it is better.

RC Airplanes: Is Mutlipex 2X better than GWS? No, but they are better.

and so forth.

To me, it seems that they just put a lot more thought into the design. They thought outside the box, and didn't cut corners anywhere. That means the price is going to be high.

Would I buy one? No. I'm happy with a simple circular saw for rough cuts, and finish cuts on the table saw. In the rare cases when I can't make the finish cut on the table saw due to a super-long board, I'll just take it nice & slow with my circ. saw and a high tooth count blade, then sand it later.

OT - The thing that kills me about Festool isn't just the tool price. It is that they are not ashamed to ask top dollar for the piddly little (necessary) accessories too. :rolleyes:

[Bill Huber]

I guess I have to compare the Festools to cameras.

You can give a used $50 camera to a real good photographer and he will come back with some outstanding images.

You can give a poor photographer a $7000 camera and he will come back with noting but crap.

The $7000 camera may be faster and have more features but it's still the person behind the lens that takes the picture.

So to me its not the tool that makes the piece of furniture its the person using the tools. The Festool my be a little faster but it is still the person that is using it that make the furniture.

[Joe Mioux]

I am a hobbyist ww'r.

Part of this hobby's fun is buying new tools and stuff; setting up a shop and, for some people, setting the tolerances - accuracy - of a ts to machinist's standards.

the other part is making things.

I am also a small business owner. I have to justify the expense of new equipment in my business.

I don't have to justify the cost of new tools in my hobby.

As long as I act responsibly for family's best interests, what is the harm in spending a little discretionary income on something that makes one happy?.

joe

p.s. if I die prematurely, my wife knows the value of all my tools! ;)

[Ben Rafael]

I guess I have to compare the Festools to cameras.

You can give a used $50 camera to a real good photographer and he will come back with some outstanding images.

You can give a poor photographer a $7000 camera and he will come back with noting but crap.

The $7000 camera may be faster and have more features but it's still the person behind the lens that takes the picture.

So to me its not the tool that makes the piece of furniture its the person using the tools. The Festool my be a little faster but it is still the person that is using it that make the furniture.

Perfect. I could not have expressed it better.

[David G Baker]

Matt,
I have a saw just like the one you posted a photo of but I cant seem to find the cord to plug it in. :D

[Clifford Mescher]

I guess I have to compare the Festools to cameras.

You can give a used $50 camera to a real good photographer and he will come back with some outstanding images.

You can give a poor photographer a $7000 camera and he will come back with noting but crap.

The $7000 camera may be faster and have more features but it's still the person behind the lens that takes the picture.

So to me its not the tool that makes the piece of furniture its the person using the tools. The Festool my be a little faster but it is still the person that is using it that make the furniture.
Very wise, Mr. Huber. I couldn't agree more. Clifford.

[Roger Lance]

Festools are better tools...I don't think there is much to be argued about with that statement...but Festools are not marketed to be "worth" the difference in price over competing tools...Festools are marketed to be thought of as exclusive...prestigious...almost unobtainable by the average person. This type of ploy has an appeal to people who have money...want the "best"...and can be separated from their money for the illusion and mystic that are bestowed by certain products. There is a sense of having obtained some form of having made it...accomplishment...increased self worth...by ownership or possesion of a thing. Why do you think Festool will not allow their products to be sold at discount?....why do they charge such high prices for their necessary add-ons and attachments? Its because they are not competing on the basis of price...they are competing on the basis of prestige...and you can not maintain the illusion of prestige if you are sold at discount. There is a real beauty here from a marketing point of view as prospective customers are making arguments about Festool...Kapex...that allows them to justify the cost. They have better dust collection. They are lighter. They have a smaller footprint. They look nice. On and on. If you are a pro, then.... Well, the pros I know have kids and bills and need to put food on the table and they need to make a truck payment and they need to think about saving for retirement and they are not making money hand over fist...that is another illusion. The average pro...or average woodworker can get a very good power miterbox for $400...and keep $900 for other things...other tools...other bills...other realities of life. A person with money and the need for the sense of exclusivity will find that it is worth the extra $900 and Festool will be very happy to take it from him and also interest him in some other prestigious things that he really also should have to really complete his woodworking arsenal. Festools are better tools. Worth that much more?? You got to figure out what type of person you are to answer that question.

[Clifford Mescher]

Festools are better tools...I don't think there is much to be argued about with that statement...but Festools are not marketed to be "worth" the difference in price over competing tools...Festools are marketed to be thought of as exclusive...prestigious...almost unobtainable by the average person. This type of ploy has an appeal to people who have money...want the "best"...and can be separated from their money for the illusion and mystic that are bestowed by certain products. There is a sense of having obtained some form of having made it...accomplishment...increased self worth...by ownership or possesion of a thing. Why do you think Festool will not allow their products to be sold at discount?....why do they charge such high prices for their necessary add-ons and attachments? Its because they are not competing on the basis of price...they are competing on the basis of prestige...and you can not maintain the illusion of prestige if you are sold at discount. There is a real beauty here from a marketing point of view as prospective customers are making arguments about Festool...Kapex...that allows them to justify the cost. They have better dust collection. They are lighter. They have a smaller footprint. They look nice. On and on. If you are a pro, then.... Well, the pros I know have kids and bills and need to put food on the table and they need to make a truck payment and they need to think about saving for retirement and they are not making money hand over fist...that is another illusion. The average pro...or average woodworker can get a very good power miterbox for $400...and keep $900 for other things...other tools...other bills...other realities of life. A person with money and the need for the sense of exclusivity will find that it is worth the extra $900 and Festool will be very happy to take it from him and also interest him in some other prestigious things that he really also should have to really complete his woodworking arsenal. Festools are better tools. Worth that much more?? You got to figure out what type of person you are to answer that question.
Roger,
I hope you don't mind that I copied and pasted your post. Insightful and a delight to read. Bravo!!! Clifford

[Ben Rafael]

Roger,
What you say makes some sense, however, wouldn't festool make a lot more money if they cut the price of their tools substantially? I would be surprised if it costs much more to make a kapex than a good $400 miter saw.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I too have looked at the Kapex and all the other SCMS out there, because I don't have one and wish I did. The high price for the tool doesn't both me too much (maybe $1k more is a bit much). The thing that really bugs me is the price for the replacement wear items (sandpaper, bit, bladews, etc.). I don't mind spending $$$ on a tool, but I do mind spending it on replacement items. I can afford to buy a good tool once, but repeatably buying replacement items will break the bank in a quick second.

[Chris Rosenberger]

I too have looked at the Kapex and all the other SCMS out there, because I don't have one and wish I did. The high price for the tool doesn't both me too much (maybe $1k more is a bit much). The thing that really bugs me is the price for the replacement wear items (sandpaper, bit, bladews, etc.). I don't mind spending $$$ on a tool, but I do mind spending it on replacement items. I can afford to buy a good tool once, but repeatably buying replacement items will break the bank in a quick second.

I had always heard the Festool sandpaper & blades were very high priced also. When I needed to relpace a sander, I looked at Festool sanders & sandpaper. I was surprised to find that boxes of 50 Festool Rubin 150 & 180 discs where a few cents more than the Mirka Gold disks that I had been using for years & I found the Festool Rubin was better than the Mirka Gold. as for saw blades. If you buy your blades at the borgs than Festool blades are priced higher. But they are comparably priced to a similar Forrest blade. Also Festool jig saw blades are priced close to Bosch blades.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
Much as I love a good steak - and at times - only a good steak is what's called for - I also love a good burger.
Sometimes - I even appreciate the "gut bombs" they serve at Hamburger Station or Mickey D's.

Please - don't assume this buger biter demands the "very best" - simply because I have a fillet mignon on my plate.

I bought a Festool TS55 EQ for one simple reason.

It works.

A Systainer isn't a magic box. What's inside is in all honesty a ho hum circular saw. As circular saws go,, it isn't much. My Ryobi, is hands down, a more robust and versitle tool. So is my $49.00 Skill. Both have taken a lickin and still keep ticken.

Geeze, it's a tool, not some kind of status symbol. I buy all my tools for one reason.
They work.

I drive an Accord, not a Civic nor a MB,
Why?
It works.

Would I drop $1300 on an $880 SCMS?
(which BTW when you factor in the exchange rate of the dollar vs the euro - that's about what the Kapex is)
Probably not - at least not at this point.
I have no use for or desire for a 10" SCMS or a 12" one either.

If I did - then I'd get one that - you guessed it - one that worked.

[Ed Costello]

Hello all,

This conversation is very entertaining to me. I don't have to justify the way I spend the expendable income that I earn. No one can argue that point. If you want it, buy it. Here is the only real answer to your question. Buy what you can afford.

Best regards,
Ed Costello

[Peter Quadarella]

I disagree. I can afford a Kapex, but I will not buy one because I do not feel it gives me sufficient value for the cost. There is something to be said for encouraging companies to give you value for your money.

In addition, I have checked into other user's comments about it and there have been a good number who were not happy with it for one reason or another, not whatI would expect for such a high priced tool.

The only convincing argument I have seen for the Kapex is if you often work onsite in other people's homes, in which case the superior dust collection and portability are a large plus.

[Joe Fusco]

I tend to agree with Peter in the sense that you need to get a certain value for your money from anything you buy. Being a person with a fair amount invested in Festool in general, I was quite disappointed when I first heard the prices of the Kapex and the 2200 router.

In my opinion these tools are all they are cracked up to be (well almost), but what they are, is not worth what they are asking for them. :rolleyes:

[David Shleifer]

I'm not a woodworker by trade, and to call myself a hobbyist would be a stretch. Recently I went out and purchased a bosch portable table saw, and a rigid slider. My wife went with it because it cut the amount of time it would for me to get certain things done around the house that we would otherwise pay someone else to do, and each task would have cost us more than the tool purchase. Was it woth it? I would say yes.

My father recently purchased a bunch of absurdly expensive fountain pens. He will likely never write with them, and he does not write for a living. They have no utility or value for what they produce. They are almost garunteed to be a depreciating asset (in rare cases some of them go up). A 10 cent bic can do the same job. Every time he opens his pen case (yes he collects such things) he smiles when he looks at the thing. I can't afford to spend my money the way he does, but he can. Who am I to say how much he should be willing to pay per smile?

Purchasing tools is similar. If you are only purchasing a tool to get the job done (why I buy crafsman for my car tools and not snap-on) than it may not justify the price. If you are purchasing it to make a process take less time, or to make it more enjoyable, it is up to you if that time savings is worth it, or if your enjoyment is increased enough to warrant the cost. For me its not, but I understand why it would be. If you are a professional, looking at only how much it will increase your efficinecy, and therefore increase the thickness of your wallet, things get easier. If it saves you engouh time or money over the life of the tool its worth it. Otherwise not.

For the lucky among us, our jobs are a cross between our hobby and our livelyhood. For those who have the money and oppurtunity to spend the little bit extra of our money (or sometimes our companies) to make this possible, its a personal choice as to if its worth it. I recently made a similar argument to one of the IT guys at my company, and they replaced my computer. I'm valuable enough to the company that my extra enjoyment of my job from having the faster computer was worth it to them to outlay the money. I would think the same may or may not be true about the more enjoyable tools. Its all about the guy making the cut.

Sorry about the rant.

[Chris Rosenberger]

Hello all,

This conversation is very entertaining to me. I don't have to justify the way I spend the expendable income that I earn. No one can argue that point. If you want it, buy it. Here is the only real answer to your question. Buy what you can afford.

Best regards,
Ed Costello


:DGreat post Ed.:D

[Burt Waddell]

Sorry about the rant.

If that was a rant we need more rants. Seriously, that was a great post.

Burt

[Mike Shields]

I guess I have to compare the Festools to cameras.

You can give a used $50 camera to a real good photographer and he will come back with some outstanding images.

You can give a poor photographer a $7000 camera and he will come back with noting but crap.

The $7000 camera may be faster and have more features but it's still the person behind the lens that takes the picture.

So to me its not the tool that makes the piece of furniture its the person using the tools. The Festool my be a little faster but it is still the person that is using it that make the furniture.

I've often thought about this mentality, and it honestly leaves me a little miffed.

We can apply this to so many things in life: guns, motorcycles, tools, snowboards, etc.

I'd like to offer this thought: for someone who does not have alot of experience, a better quality product (of any type) can allow the user to focus on becoming a better user, rather than spending time fighting with a inferior product.

Unless, of course, your one of those individuals who has been graced with god-given-talent. I wasn't, so I rely upon assistance wherever I can get it.

IMO,
Mike

[Jesse Cloud]

Interesting thread. Here's my 2 cents....

Looking at the Festool line as a whole, the jewels are the plunge saw (TS55/75), the vac (CT-22, etc), the sanders, the guide rails and the MFT. And maybe one of the routers. Those items together make a system that lets you do a tremendous amount of work with great accuracy and little dust. I use these every time I do anything in the shop. As I grow older and start downsizing, these will be the last things to go.

There are a lot of other Festools that are great tools, but they generally fit a niche. I've never been disappointed in a Festool, but if money were tight, I probably would not have bought them. For instance, I brought out the LS130 linear sander to sand the paint off some grooves in my exterior door and totally loved its performance, but its been a year since I used it last.

As Per says, if you make a living with a miter saw, you should give the Kapex a good once over. If your hobby uses miter saws a lot, and you enjoy that, give it a try, you can always return it for full price within 30 days.

I don't use a miter saw much (I do mostly furniture making, chairs these days), but every time a crank up my DeWally and it spits dust in spite of a cyclone and a dust hood, I confess that I hear a voice whispering "get a Kapex dummy and stop breathing this cr**." Who knows, maybe one of these days one will follow me home.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I'd like to offer this thought: for someone who does not have alot of experience, a better quality product (of any type) can allow the user to focus on becoming a better user, rather than spending time fighting with a inferior product.

This reminds me of a story when I was a non union laborer (that is, shophand) in a union sheet metal shop when I was in my late teens and early twenties.

I had this crappy arc welding machine from Sears at my mother's house. It had terrible arc stability and a short duty cycle. I used to bring scrap metal home from the sheetmetal shop to practice welding. I spent hours on this machine to perfect my skills.

Then, one day in the sheetmetal shop, I used their commercial Miller arc welder to weld some racks back together on the delivery truck. This machine was sweet. It was about 6 times the size of my Sears' machine. The weld bead flowed like butter with almost no splatter. The resulting welds looked like a stack of dimes laying on their side.

However, a short time later, some of the sheetmetal mechanics saw me and came running over to tell me to stop perfoming union tasks. However, when they saw how well the welds were, they became more interested in where I learned to weld. I told them: "at home on a crappy Sears' welder...and, if you can stick weld with that horrid machine, you can stick weld with any machine!" :)

Go figure...Jeff :)

[Erik Frederiksen]

There are all kinds of practical reasons for buying Festools: efficiency, accuracy, safety, durability, etc, etc.

There is yet another not insignificant reason. I find I enjoy woodworking a lot more when I use a really nice tool. I look forward to grabbing one of my systainers or finding that I need to drag out my kapex. If you do this kind of work 40 hours a week, why not try to enjoy it a bit more?

[Don Bullock]

This is a super thread. I, for one, appreciate all the responses from those who say Festool is worth the money as well as those who don't. Yes, I own a SawStop, a couple of Festool sanders and a CT 22, but the Kapex is not something I'll go out and buy just to have one even if it is a "joy" to cut with. Perhaps, if and when my Hatachi, stops working and if I have the cash, I'll consider one. Until then I have a lot more tools that I'd like to spend that money on as I get my new shop up and running. As a hobbiest I do enjoy having good tools. Unfortunately my income, now that I'm retired, will be more limited than it was. I also have many other things for the new shop that I need before I go out and buy more tools. The OP wanted to know if Festool is really that good. We could debate that issue for hours, perhaps even days and months. I'll take Per's opinion due to his expertise and the work I've seen him post here and say yes. I, however, at this point don't need one. Karl, only you can decide if it's good enough to spend the extra dollars for your situation.

[William OConnell]

Hey guess what? Festool is a quality manufacturer. No doubt. I own lots of there stuff. I own and love there sanders, 1400 router(although I reach for a PC more), vacuum, rails, circular saw. I get an actual enjoyment from using these things which makes my work day a little happier and thats a good thing. However the Kapex is not something on my wish list. I tried one and it was not comfortable for me. I feel better with a horizontal handle, for whatever reason. I like Bosches jig saw better also
I have a Dewalt 708 on a delta stand which gives me all the mobility I need. Its all the saw I need also. I tuned it buy cutting a series of triangles to make a hexagon years ago, by the way, and its amazingly remained dead on even with all the moving around it does.
No folks because its a 12" blade doesn't mean its going to wobble and ruin my work, maybe because I use higher quality blades, who knows, thats a phenomenon I haven't experienced. I really enjoy all my Festool products and they are a joy to use and help me create things I have in my mind.
But so does my Dewalt slider, my Delta unisaw, my Powermatic planer etc. All different brands. each a pleasure to use.
For me personally if a Kapex and a 708 Dewalt were the choices I'd pick the Dewalt. Its not broke, I don't need to fix it. The saw and myself are a nice marriage and I'm happy.

http://woodworkers.us/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1306&g2_serialNumber=2&g2_GALLERYSID=42a205c78e3d1674608e491392aaac57

Set up yesterday

http://www.woodworkers.us/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1454&g2_serialNumber=2

[Karl Brogger]

There's quite the mix of responses here. The plan is that while the Milwaukee 10" mitre saw works just fine in the shop, I could use a better saw for install, I have three of the Milwaukee saws floating around. So the Festool saw would be sitting on the shelf for 95% of the time.

I don't need to justify anything. When it comes to tooling, it costs what it costs. Prestige means nothing. Well sorta. I've got a piece of junk Dodge Dakota that is covered in hail damage. I will not drive that to a potential customers project. It looks like I can't afford a decent vehicle. But nobody is going to notice you're toting around a expensive ass saw.

Here's an example of a tool being worth what they charge. Some tools are worth whatever they cost, The Porter Cable 504 beltsander IS the only belt sander to own in a shop enviroment. There is none better. Period. It does suck for install, just because it weighs 14lbs, but that same 14lbs is made up of worm gears, and chain drive. They don't make them anymore, and the few remaining are selling in the ballpark of $1k, which is $200 more than what they sold for before they were discontinued. I would gladly pay more for another one. When a tool is really worth what is charged for it, is when you are willing to pay more than what they do. It doesn't sound like anyone carries the same, dare I say "love" for the Kapex, apex, whatever, that I do for the 504 beltsander.

And yes, a Mercedes is worth every penny.

and no, I really haven't come up with a solution yet.

[Alan Schaffter]

One of my Milwaukee 10" mitre saws it taking a crap on me. Are these really worth $1300?

Is the FX-1 worth what you paid? Do you do that many tough field installations where a precise mitersaw is essential? Do you have a health problem where outstanding dust collection is essential? You gotta have a real need, or just a real bad want . . . . . and the cash.

[Per Swenson]

I don't want to belabor the point and lets forget for a second
the Festool brand and price and focus on methods of work for the professional.

All though Mr OConnel's 2nd picture in the driveway above is
pretty standard for a North Eastern Carpenter, and also it appears he is working a deck project, lets think for a moment the same set up for interior work.

Any time I am not set up inside next to my work I am losing money.
No I do not employ a cut man at the moment as the long term employment I would like to offer, in order to keep a skilled man has been devastated by this economy.

Speaking of the economy, I can't afford to pull a trailer with my F350,
unless the customer absorbs the fuel bills.

So what to do?
Get efficient. How? Consolidate the whole operation in the areas of wasted time and expense.

For instance I am quite fond of the new Milwaukee 12 miter saw.
But it is huge and weigh 65 plus pounds and it's gonna suck bringing it to the third floor.

Today, instead of the F350 which sits forlorn in the driveway. (7MPG)
we travel in a Saturn VUE. I have materials delivered.
I can fit kapex, dust collection, 10 systainer's and two tool bags.
At the Beginning of the day i can set up in under a 1/2 hour.

At the end of the day, I no longer have to budget over a hour to clean the entire house of saw dust.

Being efficient has its rewards, not only in time saved and monies earned but in that special bond that forms between customer and contractor when they are able to come home from work and their activities are only mildly interrupted.

To sum up, saying that these tools are overpriced etc. is really missing the full picture. Remember, I said they ain't for everybody. But when I said that
I forgot about the elitist branding meme currently gaining traction.

Bunch a horsegooey ya ask me.
Cause I'm a struggling red/hippy/neck/carpenter, who by investing money
in a system allows me to actually provide a service at a lower cost to the consumer. Increasing my reputation and keeping food on the table.

If that's elitism, each and every one of us is guilty.

Per

[Clifford Mescher]

I can see where contractors could make money from Festool brand tools. That being said, I think they are marketing their products to a much broader base. I see Festool full page advertisements in almost every woodworking magazine.
I am not a shrink and I don't portray one on television but there has to be some reason why Joe Blow hobbyist has a $1300 miter cutter in his garage. Clifford

[Jim Finn]

The S-Class has more leg room. :D......
Important if you have three legs... true

[Karl Brogger]

Is the FX-1 worth what you paid? Do you do that many tough field installations where a precise mitersaw is essential? Do you have a health problem where outstanding dust collection is essential? You gotta have a real need, or just a real bad want . . . . . and the cash.

The FXone was worth every penny. It is the coolest catamaran made by Hobie. The more boats I sail, the more I like it. I crewed on a Nacra Infusion this past weekend, also a sweet boat. That's a hobby, and as others have stated it doesn't matter what it costs so long as you enjoy it. I can justify sailing a $20k boat because I like it.

With a few exceptions a "precision" saw is a good thing, and always needed. The less skill that I need to put into it the better. I guess the biggest question is will it last? I've never cared for DeWalt anything. I've been impressed with Makita, and Hitachi sliders, (especially that little 8-1/2" bugger). I bought the Milwaukee saws mostly just as a chop box for cutting stretchers and the like, and being used to the saw I use it for trimming as well. They aren't great, but they are miles ahead of the comparable DeFault saws.

So many tools, so little money. Being that I can write off the expense I can look at it as saving 40% anyway. :)

[Joe Jensen]

My saw was bought by my father in the early 60's from a friend of his who got it in the late 50's. It is a no name saw and is accurate enough to make perfect miters. Rockwell might have been the first to mass produce the portable, but they certainly weren't the first to make them. These were made in Los Angeles in some quantity.
Anyway, my comment is that 1/100th of an inch generally doesn't matter since the wood will likely move more than that anyway.
People have produced flawless miters before kapex and will continue to do so. I'm sure the kapex has it's place, but my guess is that for most people it is a waste of money.

I didn't realize that portable miter saws were available that long ago. I'm a huge fan of quality older tools. The late 1980s Delta miter saw I have seems like a first generation tool and it's a POS. I hate it. Loud, inaccurate (1 degree off), and you can't adjust the angle guage to tune the saw. In addition, it vibrates a ton and did I say how loud it is? I could never use it for cabinet shop stuff, it's barely good enough for construction. Since it's worth almost nothing, I have been considering using it as a cuttoff saw for steel :eek:

[Chris Padilla]

I'll get in on this.

Me: Hobbyist

I own lottsa Festool but I do not own any of their routers nor their power planer.

I don't own their routers because I already have 3 or 4 PCs that do just fine and I love the Bosch Colt.

I don't see a need for their power planer.

Their vacuum and sanders are the best I've ever used and actually make sanding fun.

The jigsaw is okay but way better than the Sears one I used for a long time. Until the Festool, I didn't know jigsaw could cut so nicely.

The circular saw is also top-notch and the dust-collection is the best, which is why I went Festool for my guided saw operations.

I also have the Domino and it has been fun to use but its price also caused me pause but I did it anyway.

Now to the Kapex. Looks sweet...it is Festool...how could it not be sweet?! Okay, the price will be high when it comes out but even as a diehard Festoolian, I was very surprised at the price. I have a buddy who has EVERYTHING by Festool...EVERYTHING! However, in our discussions, neither of us could swallow the Kapex's price and so I don't see it entering my garage/shop any time soon. If it was under a grand, odds are decent that I'd have one.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I understand they have pretty good bearings.

[Kirk Poore]

Now, no doubt you may have a old saw, but the first motorized portable miter saw was made by Rockwell/delta in 1966. And they were far from accurate.


Per

Actually, they've been around for a lot longer than that, as long as your definition of "portable" is not too strict:

http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/images/78-A.jpg

This advertisement is from 1925. Here's a slightly newer version, probably from the 1930's:
http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/images/2282-A.jpg

Kirk

[Per Swenson]

Thanks for the education Kirk.

I am humbled in my narrow mindedness.
Never the less even though Delta claims they invented it in 66,
I actually never saw one until 82. I was 24 years old with the attitude that accompanies that age.

You know the one. Its where you hold a certain disdain for your fathers
thirty year old stanley miter box, along with coping saws, hand nailing
and math.

Per

[Tim Null]

Hi Guys,

I am a newbie to this hobby. Just finished building my workbench. Traditional bench with front vise and end vice. Full maple, actually about a thousand dollars worth.

Could I have spent less? Of course. I read about 2-3 hundred dollar designs using less expensive wood.

But this is a hobby and I wanted to make a really nice bench. And I can afford it.

Actually, the damn thing is so nice looking that I almost don't want to put a mark on it. But I will get over it.....LOL!

I am a cyclist as well. In my younger days, I road a mid priced bike. About $1200.00 to be exact. About 90% of the performance of a top of the line pro class bike.

Now I ride a $5000.00 bike that is the same as the Tour De France riders.

Is the extra money worth it? Not if you are calculating bang for the buck performance. It takes $3800.00 to get that extra 10% improvement.

Would I buy it again? In a heartbeat. Every time I ride it I smile. It just does everything a bike should, but better.

I drive a BMW. Used to drive a Dodge, which bang for the buck was a better buy. But the BMW puts a smile on my face every time I drive it, it just does everything better than the Dodge.

I have never used a Festool. So I cannot comment on the brand. But from reading the posts, it is similar to my bike and car.

If you are looking for bang for the buck, it seems not to be the brand to consider.

If you want that extra 10% performance, then yes.

Pens, snowboards, sailboats, racing bikes.......if it is your hobby then sometimes bang for the buck is not the main concern.

The smile on your face when you use it might be the biggest factor.

Not for everyone. Not to be elitist either. I did not buy my bike and car for their brand name. If the BMW did not drive better than the Dodge then I would not be behind the wheel of one.

If I had to sacrifice my family's well being in order to drive one, then the answer would be of course not.

But since I could afford it, after many years of just making ends meet, then I decided it was worth it.

The question seems to be: Will you get your monies worth in enjoyment from using a saw? If so and you can afford it, then go ahead. If you really can appreciate that last 10%, then it is probably for you.

Just my humble opinion.

TimN

[Jim Becker]

If you are looking for bang for the buck, it seems not to be the brand to consider.

Well...as you clearly illustrate, it depends upon "what kind" of bang you are looking for relative to your buck(s). ;) We all have different needs and different desires. Unfortunately, our own eyes don't always put good perspective on other's needs and desires. My message there to readers is that it's perfectly ok for anyone to say that the brand or a particular tool isn't for them, but that they may not be in a good position to make that judgment for someone else.

On what is essentially the original question posed in this thread, despite my stable of well-loved Festool tools, I'm somewhat doubtful that I'll opt for a Kapex. That's not because I think it's not worth it's price or that the advantages it exhibits are not of interest. In my case, it's simply because I don't really use my CMS for anything "critical" for the most part. So investing in a new one to replace my older 12" Delta wouldn't make sense for me. But if I were earning my living like Per...no question, I'd consider it seriously in about a half-second for many of the reasons he cites, especially with my experience with the rest of the Festool line to-date.

BTW, welcome to SMC, Tim!

[John Keeton]

Festool is not for me, but I am convinced that for those like Per it is a wise use of dollars. But, on the particular subject of the Kapex, I don't think I could use one simply because of the handle design. I am short, and with the saw at bench height, I have difficulty bringing the saw down without strain on my wrist. Seems that a horizontal handle would be better - but I am sure I am in minority here.

Otherwise, looks like a heck of a nice tool and if I had the need I wouldn't hesitate. We all spend our money where we feel justified. In the end, it is my money!!

Personally, I am glad there are Festool owners out there. It drives the market for a high end, quality tool. Without that market, we would end up with another mediocre tool company - and we have enough of those!

[Todd Bin]

I can see where contractors could make money from Festool brand tools. That being said, I think they are marketing their products to a much broader base. I see Festool full page advertisements in almost every woodworking magazine.
I am not a shrink and I don't portray one on television but there has to be some reason why Joe Blow hobbyist has a $1300 miter cutter in his garage. Clifford

I do not like the inference that I am an elitist because I own Festool. The truth is that I don't like fiddling with tools. I like to build and create things out of wood. I like Festool (and a few other brands like Incra) because once I get it set up I don't have to fiddle with it. Just pull it out and make the cut.

If you think about it you have only two resources -- Time and Money. You can trade one for the other. I choose to trade some of my money for the time and less frustration gained by using a quality tool.

[Clifford Mescher]

I do not like the inference that I am an elitist because I own Festool. The truth is that I don't like fiddling with tools. I like to build and create things out of wood. I like Festool (and a few other brands like Incra) because once I get it set up I don't have to fiddle with it. Just pull it out and make the cut.

If you think about it you have only two resources -- Time and Money. You can trade one for the other. I choose to trade some of my money for the time and less frustration gained by using a quality tool.
I do not see anything in my post that infers that anybody is an elitist. To infer something like that about people I don't know is above my pay-scale. That being said....I do agree with post # 23. Clifford

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Clifford,

I think post #23 is wrong.

Frankly, using that type of a analysis, anyone who buys tools at any other place than say HF is on an ego trip. Not so!

I'm not made of money but I can appreciate that some cheap tools are just that....cheap and will fail quickly........some tools are expensive and will last a life time.......some tools are cheap and will last a lifetime and some tools are expensive and will fail quickly.

Price doesn't always equate to quality but ...often it does because using more skilled labor costs more...using better quality materials costs more and having tighter quality control specifications and therefore more inspectons costs more. And yet.....some cheap tools last and work great.

To make a statement that some people want to feel superior or standout above the rest because they bought a more expensive or superior manufactured tool......there might be a few folks who do that but I think it's "very few".

I suspect that most people buy the best quality tool their budget will allow. A professional has more reason to buy those better tools because their income depends on it. Being a hobbiest, I still buy the best quality I can afford. I'm not one who has the patience or the mindset to return something and go through the hassles of returning something. It's not my cup of tea and I don't think this late in life I will change. Therefore, I find it more convenient, practical and cheaper in some cases to wait until I can afford a better tool.

When I bought a lathe, I didn't buy a big Oneway or Rubust, I bought a PM3520B. Based on the reviews at this and other websites, it will last my lifetime. I might have to replace belts and such but that's normal wear items like the tires and brakes on my car.

When I bought the MM-16 bandsaw, I could have bought more expensive models or brands but it will do everything my hobby will ever need. Based on many reviews, my sons will argue over that one.

When I bought my Onieda Super Gorilla DC...same scenerio. It should last my lifetime with normal wearout maintenance.

I am not an elitist. I just don't have the patience for returning stuff that breaks prematurely.

I am not wealthy. I have supported myself since age 15 and began supporting a wife and 2 kids when I married a divorced woman with 2 kids at age 19. I was raised poor. I appreciate things of good quality. I don't buy just for the sake of owning a "name brand".

Most people buy what fits a negotiated compromise between needs and budget. To classify everyone who buys a better tools as an elitist is pure hogwash..IMHO

[Ken Fitzgerald]

BTW....I don't own any Festool tools.

I haven't been able to justify their cost.:)

[Clifford Mescher]

Ken,

I don't think were singing the same tune. My apologies are extended, for I was only looking at the marketing scheme. I personally own a couple of their tools.;) Clifford.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Clifford,


Festools are better tools...I don't think there is much to be argued about with that statement...but Festools are not marketed to be "worth" the difference in price over competing tools...Festools are marketed to be thought of as exclusive...prestigious...almost unobtainable by the average person. This type of ploy has an appeal to people who have money...want the "best"...and can be separated from their money for the illusion and mystic that are bestowed by certain products. There is a sense of having obtained some form of having made it...accomplishment...increased self worth...by ownership or possesion of a thing. Why do you think Festool will not allow their products to be sold at discount?....why do they charge such high prices for their necessary add-ons and attachments? Its because they are not competing on the basis of price...they are competing on the basis of prestige...and you can not maintain the illusion of prestige if you are sold at discount. There is a real beauty here from a marketing point of view as prospective customers are making arguments about Festool...Kapex...that allows them to justify the cost. They have better dust collection. They are lighter. They have a smaller footprint. They look nice. On and on. If you are a pro, then.... Well, the pros I know have kids and bills and need to put food on the table and they need to make a truck payment and they need to think about saving for retirement and they are not making money hand over fist...that is another illusion. The average pro...or average woodworker can get a very good power miterbox for $400...and keep $900 for other things...other tools...other bills...other realities of life. A person with money and the need for the sense of exclusivity will find that it is worth the extra $900 and Festool will be very happy to take it from him and also interest him in some other prestigious things that he really also should have to really complete his woodworking arsenal. Festools are better tools. Worth that much more?? You got to figure out what type of person you are to answer that question.

Clifford.....if this isn't implying that Festool owners are elitists....enlighten me. If the last statement doesn't imply that if you buy a Festool, you must be one of those persons......explain to me what it does imply.

IMHO different people buy for different reasons. I don't think that everyone buys a better quality tool....a more expensive tool is necessarily an elitist. In fact, I would suspect those types of persons are in the extreme minority.

Where are Festools manufactured? Germany IIRC. Typically German engineering and manufacturing is better quality and higher priced.

Festool isn't the only manufacturer who sets the price at which their products must be sold. Seems to me one of the better known, higher quality sharpening systems manufactured in Europe deals the same way.

Again,

I don't own any Festool tools.....I don't own any Festool stock......I don't have a dog in this fight.

I will tell you that a lot of the professionals that I work with buy higher quality tools for a reason. Their livelyhoods depend upon those tools working reliably and accurately a majority of the time.

My employer provides me with good quality tools because our customers demand good service. They design good quality troubleshooting tools, hardware and software, to allow us to provide the best economically justifiable service that our customers expect. I hate to think how many thousands of dollars of tools and test equipment I have assigned to me so I can perform my daily job.

Are these tools worth the additional expense? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So is the value of paying the extra money for the additional benefits and quality. But it doesn't mean everyone who spends the money is on an ego trip fueled by an excess of monetary funds and should seek psychiatric treatement.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Clifford,

After rereading your reply, my apologies.

If you are talking about the marketing scheme......they might be using that scheme......but to most it doesn't fly......and they must be willing to produce and sell fewer numbers of products. It would not surprise for some marketing executive to develop a plan like that......

[Roger Lance]

Just a little more opinion....I also don't have any personal interests in this discussion...I don't hold stock in Festool or anyother tool maker to any significant level (unless its in a mutual fund somewhere that I've got...but I'm unaware of this)...nor am I a retailer of tools etc....I don't own any Festool products....I own a lot of Delta and Porter-Cable products that were purchased years ago and given whats happening to them in terms of quality, I will probably be looking at other tool makers for future purchases and this will include Festool....my last two major purchases were a Powermatic 719A hollow chisel mortiser and a Jet floor model oscillating spindle sander (both good tools)....I also can financially afford to buy Festool....and I too have things just for the fun of it including a Corvette and a sailboat....but what I really find objectionable in all these discussions is the notion that there is junk, poorly made, inadequate tools and then there is Festool...and that is simply not the case...there are many makers of very good tools that will perform very well and give their owners years of good dependable service and at a cost that is a fraction of Festool...yet in these discussions the idea that a woodworker can achieve tool happiness and craftmanship excellence with lesser tools than Festool is lost....or denied....its certainly not acknowledged and promoted...and part of the results of this lack of acknowledgement is that some woodworkers are made to feel that what they have in terms of tools is inadequate and second class at best...heaven forbid that you feel good about what you have and get on with the work...no, feel uneasy about what tools you have because there is better out there and you should have these tools before you feel good about what you have...all last year it was all about the Festool Domino...people just had to have one...all the other methods of making a joint were not any good anymore even if those methods went back to ancient times....people just had to spend their $1000 and get their Domino and their Sustainer and their whatever....now its all about the Kapex...no other power miterbox will do...got to spend $1300....and after this dies down, as did the Domino, Festool will bring out someother must-have given the brillant marketer that they are...and the same fires of must-have passion will burn bright....I know that I agree with those here that have pointed out that its the craftsman and not the tools...how about making something with these things that has not been made by someone else without a Festool??...show some work on a Kapex that cannot be done without one....everyone, that said they can buy whatever they want (Festool) and they don't have to justify it or appologize for it, are absolutely right....buy what you want...but don't deny that other tools...other methods...are capable of great work and also admit that just because you bought an expensive tool, you still have to work at developing your skills just like anyother person who aspires to be a craftsman.

[Peter Quinn]

I don't want to belabor the point and lets forget for a second the Festool brand and price and focus on methods of work for the professional. Mr OConnel's 2nd picture in the driveway above is
pretty standard for a North Eastern Carpenter. Any time I am not set up inside next to my work I am losing money.

At the end of the day, I no longer have to budget over a hour to clean the entire house of saw dust.

Per

LOL. Northeast millwork guy here. I hear you sir. Last year i did a trim package for a carpenter friend for a recording studio with a little 'smoozy lounge after hours quazi legal' thing attached. i helped with a bit of the install. Top floor of a five story 'Historic' building with a rickety old service elevator, no other access for us. First they put in the electronics in a booth, and we had to work 'cleaner'. Then they put in the digital jacks in the walls, and we had to work 'even cleaner'. Then the acoustical ceiling panels were applied and the room became sterile, because you cannot vacuum that stuff, its black so dust shows, and its REALLY EXPENSIVE. We tried my makita under a hood, in a tent, with a vac, in the hallway, no go.

So we had to walk down 100 feet of hallway, down five flights in the slowest, smallest elevator in CT, down another 100 feet of hallway into the parking lot. Not cute. How much would a Kapex have been worth to me that week? One kidney, half a liver and a new pair of shoes.

I like this thread. My take, Festool makes top quality precision tools for professional installers and site builders with an emphasis on dust control. They don't make excuses or gimmics. If this describes you, consider them seriously. If not, you are still welcomed to attend the festool party should finances allow. The whole elitist conversation is a non starter. Just how elite can a guy or gal that cuts wood for a living or recreation claim to be regardless of what they use to cut it. You want to see elite? Join a country club.

[Peter Quadarella]

My problem with the Kapex is not that I think it is too expensive. If it was perfect, I could see the price tag. But everything I have read has been so-so. It has it's issues. Therefore, I don't see it being worth the money (unless, as I mentioned, you need the portability and dust control for working on site).

[Byron Trantham]

I guess I have to compare the Festools to cameras.

You can give a used $50 camera to a real good photographer and he will come back with some outstanding images.

You can give a poor photographer a $7000 camera and he will come back with noting but crap.

The $7000 camera may be faster and have more features but it's still the person behind the lens that takes the picture.

So to me its not the tool that makes the piece of furniture its the person using the tools. The Festool my be a little faster but it is still the person that is using it that make the furniture.

OMG, is that reason I am reading?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

A friendly little Mod reminder:

Politics are not allowed to be discussed.

As to which generation was the greatest, that is just a matter of opinion for which there is no imperical objective measurement.

The subject of this thread deals with the value of Festools.

Let's stay on subject please!

[William OConnell]

Cause I'm a struggling red/hippy/neck/carpenter, who by investing money
in a system allows me to actually provide a service at a lower cost to the consumer. Increasing my reputation and keeping food on the table.


Uhh Per have you seen my company shirts or me? When you mentioned redneck hippie carpenter I flashed back to when I lived in Austin Texas. Can you get more redneck or hippie than this? I think not my friend. By the way I'm doing decks because I'm stuggling too.
To the original Poster Festool rocks
http://woodworkers.us/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=979&g2_serialNumber=6&g2_GALLERYSID=42a205c78e3d1674608e491392aaac57
Hmmm
http://woodworkers.us/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=948&g2_serialNumber=6&g2_GALLERYSID=42a205c78e3d1674608e491392aaac57

[Karl Brogger]

By the way I'm doing decks because I'm stuggling too.

That's funny. I just had to build a privacy fence, and finish up a deck. I know alot of framers/carpenters that are doing nothing but roofs because there is nothing to build. Now cabinetmakers (i.e. me), doing outside work? Blasphemy!!!

I would've figured this thread would've died by now. In any case I'm going to order one up, that is as soon as I have the $1300 premium that they're asking, and I don't have anything better to do with that money. Or the Milwaukee finally dies, which is probably going to be sooner than later. At least with the winter months upon us my only real hobby, sailing, won't be using much money up. Of course they're is about $3k worth of tidbits and repairs I need to blow on that too.:(