Norm's rabbet and brad construction

[J. Z. Guest]

I'm going to start work pretty soon (I promise ;) ) on the NYW jewelry chest for my wife.

After watching the DVD and looking through the "measured drawing", there are two things I question about it.

1) They suggest to plane all the lumber to thickness before jointing or cutting to length. it seems that this isn't going to yield flat lumber. (unless Norm gets better lumber than I do, hehehe)

2) He does everything with either rabbets or dados, glue, and brads. One board glued into a rabbet and held with brads until the glue dries doesn't seem ideal for strength; just speed of assembly. The joints are all going to be end grain to face grain. Yet he does it in nearly every project. I'm thinking about using Dowels instead of rabbets, but this is going to mean a lot of modifications to board length in the plans. There is a higher chance I'd screw something up from a math error this way too.

I want this to last many lifetimes, not just 10 years until my unborn kids get a hold of it.

What would you do?

[Tom Esh]

1) Well it sure doesn't make any sense to thickness plane before face jointing, so I'd guess maybe they meant edge jointing only. Or perhaps it's just a typo and they meant joining (not jointing).

2) Norm does love to pull that trigger.:D
Rabbet joinery is fine, but it's not at the top of my list either. I'd bite the bullet and recalculate (carefully and more than once) for something you'll be happier with. I've not used many plans, but I've yet to see one without some glaring weakness or outright mistake. In a way it depends on which possibility you find more tolerable - fixing your own mistakes, or someone else's. :)

[brian lanning]

What would you do?

I've not seen the project you're describing, but I know his dado and brad ways.

The idea is that you want the shelf sitting on the side (not the bottom) of the dado. If you were to use dowels like you describe then the weight on the shelves would be relying on the shear strength of the dowels rather than the crush strength of the wood under the shelf in the dado.

In something as small as a jewelry box, it probably doesn't matter.

I'd use the dado. If you really wanted to spice things up, you could use a sliding dovetail or a combination of that and a dado. The brads aren't necessary if you do things right.

brian

[Joe Vincent]

With respect to the joinery, I guess the question is whether you're worried about dados or just rabbets. I think dados with glue should be fine but an uncaptured joint like a rabbet can be less than optimal in some circumstances. Just depends where in the piece it's used and what types of stresses it needs to endure. If you're uncomfortable with the rabbets, ditch 'em and use dowels if you like.

[Jim Becker]

I think you'll find that as the years passed, there was less inclination to for Norm to "shoot first and fill holes later".

As to the jewelry box project, I didn't find a need to use too much metal when I made it years ago. I also didn't use plywood for the back...I made a 1/4" thick panel out of solid stock left over from resawing something and it looks great. The visible joinery is plenty strong enough with just glue and clamps.

Relative to pre-planing material, many of the pieces would be too short to thickness after cutting even just close to length, so you have to pick a happy medium that works well with the material you have chosen for the project. A piece of material for the two sides, for example, would still not be a very long board in aggregate and thicknessing it as one piece would make sense including leaving enough length to account for any accidental snipe if your machinery is so inclined.

[J. Z. Guest]

For those not familiar with the project, here (http://www.newyankee.com/getproduct.php?0012) is the link to it at newyankee.com.

Here's their photo of one customer's finished version. The top drawer is fake; it is actually a false front. the lid opens to the top compartment.

http://www.newyankee.com/Yankees/ohpaulwiley.jpg

No, I wasn't so worried about the dados, just the rabbets at the edges, held together with only glue (on end grain) & brads. I was thinking of getting a brad nailer & compressor so I could stick with this plan, but then it occurred to me that the reason I don't have one in the first place is because it is not a strong or preferred form of joinery for my low-quantity, high quality-type projects.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

For something small, no real load bearing, the rebates and glue is fine. The brads do two things. One is to hasten the assembly in general and the other is for slight additional strength in one direction--which is the direction of drag when opening drawers. No side pressure strength.

One can always plan for DTs or box joints for the sides, though. Or, the use of a lock miter bit in a router or shaper. Personally if I was going to do the power tool route (I would just bang out half-blind DTs) I would use the lock miter as the joinery would not detract from the clean lines.

Half blind DTs would emulate the rebated look and hold far better over the years. For the drawer, rebated is how I would do them.

Good luck.

Take care, Mike

[David Keller NC]

If you're referring to the joint between the overhanging top and the sides, one historical method that's near bulletproof and a bit less challenging than a sliding dovetail joint is to half-blind dovetail a couple of battens across the top of the box, then join the actual top to these battens with screws. Not quite as sturdy as sliding dovetails, but there's a good bit of furniture constructed this way that's been around for 250 years.

Regarding the drawers, I would dovetail them. If you've the power equipment, it won't take all that much longer than rabbets and nails, but the joint will last several lifetimes longer. If you don't have the power equipment, it's still not that difficult to dovetail a drawer, and it's a skill well worth learning.

I'm not enough of a neanderthal to do that to a kitchen project (several dozens of dovetail joints - it'd take a month to cut them all), but it's worth doing on a small jewelry box or a chest of drawers.

[Dick Strauss]

As far as I've noticed Norm runs rough lumber in the following order:
1) face joint one side (to make one face flat)...I think you missed this step!!!
2) plane opposite face to final thickness +1/64" or so for sanding (to make the second face flat and parallel)
3) joint one edge (to make one edge flat and square to the faces)
4) rip material to width on the TS (to make the last edge flat and square to the faces)

He does tend to leave his boards a little long and do his final length cutting later.

I hope this helps!

[Joe Chritz]

One thing you can do in place of the brads is to reinforce the rabbit joint with brass (or other metal) pins. Drill 1/8" holes and drive in the pins with a tad of epoxy or CA glue.

Pins are available in brass, Stainless, nickel silver or others from knife making suppliers, like Koval knives.

Joe

[Andrew Pezzo]

Whats the difficulty level on this? I am a fairly novice woodworker and have been looking a jewelry box to make for my wife.

[Jim Becker]

Andrew, this project is pretty approachable and straight-forward. The biggest challenge is the sliding base (for the hidden compartment), but careful work will get you there.

[Joe Jensen]

This may well be one of Norm's earlier designs. Those who have been doing WW for more than 20 years remember Norm as the trim carpender for this old house. In his first 10 years of so Norm was a cabinet making hack. He used his air nailer on everything possible. Tool companies loved him because he convinced an entire generation that they needed a brad nailer. Some of Norm's eariler projects were disasters. Building end tables with wide solid tops nailed to the skirt all the way around. That kind of stuff.

I just to laugh and laugh at Norm, but in the past 15 years or so he was come a long way. In the past he relied mainly on nails, and when gluing he would always nail and almost never use clamps. Now he regularly uses clamps, and he even uses jointery.

[Jim Becker]

Episode 2 of the year 2000 season for that project, Joe.

[Rod Sheridan]

This may well be one of Norm's earlier designs. Those who have been doing WW for more than 20 years remember Norm as the trim carpender for this old house. In his first 10 years of so Norm was a cabinet making hack. He used his air nailer on everything possible. Tool companies loved him because he convinced an entire generation that they needed a brad nailer. Some of Norm's eariler projects were disasters. Building end tables with wide solid tops nailed to the skirt all the way around. That kind of stuff.

I just to laugh and laugh at Norm, but in the past 15 years or so he was come a long way. In the past he relied mainly on nails, and when gluing he would always nail and almost never use clamps. Now he regularly uses clamps, and he even uses jointery.


Well Joe, you brought a smile to my face.

I like the fact that Norm has helped popularize wood working, however his lack of guards on the tablesaw and his use of the brad nailer drives my wife nuts.

I made an intarsia piece a few years ago that is a copy of The New Yankee Workshop sign except....

Mine has a brad nailer with an X through it, and it says "The No Yankee Workshop".

(With apologies to true Yankees of course).

I guess that makes me a fan, since "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".

Regards, Rod.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I watched a NYW episode I taped recently - not sure when it originally aired - where he maded a pretty nice looking mission style desk out of QSWO. I was actually surprised by his joinery and clamping, and lack of nails...so much so that most of the way through the show when he *did* use some brads to hold a piece in place, I was totally shocked.

[Jacob Reverb]

No offense, Jeremy, and this isn't directed at you; just a general observation, but it puzzles me why so many woodworkers seem to think everything needs to be so blessed strong nowadays.

I mean, if it was a box-girder bridge that would be carrying 50-ton earth-movers across the Grand Canyon, I might do the stress and strain calculations. For a jewelry box? No way.

IMO, glue and brads (the brads are mainly only to hold things together until the glue dries, I suspect) on a rabbet or dado or dado-rabbet joint make a pretty darn strong construction, anyways. Try breaking one apart with your hands sometime. You might be surprised.

[Jack Vines]

I like the fact that Norm has helped popularize wood working,Hi, Rod,

Based on forty years of observation, I'm going to respectfully disagree. The only ones who watch Norm are the same silver-hairs we see at woodworker shows. Young guys today spend money on video games, not tools. Over time, I traded up in machinery and tools, selling the previous one as I found better. Even fifteen-to-twenty years ago, advertise a table saw or radial arm saw and Saturday morning there would be five guys fighting over who got to pay 50% of retail. Today, on craigslist at any given time, there will half-a-dozen table saws and another half-dozen radial arm saws going begging at $25-50. This past weekend, a Parks planer which would have been a bidding war at $500 a few years back when that was real money, couldn't find a buyer at today's $200 deflated dollars.

Brag about your hand-cut dovetails? Norm's wham-bam-dado-brad is about as involved as the few younger woodworkers want to be. More important that the project can be build in a weekend. Same with ham radio - used to be a major hobby with Morse code proficiency as a requirement and there were bragging rights in the clubs for ability at speed reading and sending Morse code. The few young amateur radio geeks who buy a license today don't even know who Samuel Morse was.

Seems we're the last echo of a dying craft. Enjoy it, because the next generation probably won't even know the hobby existed.

thnx, jack vines

[John Shuk]

Jack,
I have to rebut your position.
I am a young guy(39) who has always had an interest in woodworking. I used to play alot of video games but when I was layed up after an accident and could have justified plenty of game playing it was NYW every morning on DIY that I looked forward to. I had a bunch of tools that I had inherited and Norm had his way of explaining things and it really looked doable. I know a bunch of guys my age and much younger who have hobbies. I've taken wwk'ing classes at a local state college and been really wowed by the level of work. Go to the San Diego County Fair in Del Mar and check out the entries from the high school kids. Or just take a look at this thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=93273 There are plenty of gray hairs who are big into woodworking........and many other hobbies. I have been SCUBA diving for about 15 years. I have pretty much been the youngest person on any trip I've been on in 15 years. I don't dive nearly as much any more nor do I do as much woodworking as I would like.
Us young guys are out trying to kill some food every day and have kids and mortgages that take up lots of our time and discretionary income. Generally the gray haired guys have things a little more settled. Just because we aren't at the shows as much and don't have the projects and tips in the magazines as much doesn't mean we don't exist.
Norm Abrams make projects with tools that many of us are a bit familiar with having done some home improvement project. He uses techniques that some may not consider the pinnacle of fine joinery but a person can make a project they should be proud of following his steps.
I absolutely feel that Norm has gotten a lot of people started woodworking and will continue to do so.
There may be less woodworkers in the future but I think you are being a bit pessimistic about human nature. What dead craft did you neglect to learn as a young guy? Morse code is pretty much a dead language these days. Time marches on.

[Peter Quadarella]

I am 35 and Norm and Roy Underhill helped me get interested in woodworking. After I had more interest I started watching David Marks. I know plenty of people my age and younger that are into woodworking as a hobby.

In fact, I just went to a local gathering of woodworkers this weekend; there had to be 40 of us and many were younger than me. Recently there was an age poll on this site and the average age was in the 40's which sounds about right.

In my opinion there has lately been a resurgence of hand tool usage. Woodworking is far from dead, and the industry feels very lively to me. The classifieds on woodworking websites are emptied very quickly.

I know a couple people with ham licenses. In my opinion the main reason that that hobby is dying is the internet. Free communication across the globe trumps ham radio except for those who have a special interest in it.

I agree with John; in every generation there are old crafts that wane and new ones that wax. I am sure there were old timers back in the 60's that lamented this very same thing. However, I don't see woodworking being hit very hard right now.

[Andrew Pezzo]

Without any facts to base this on if there really is a decline in woodworking interest I would imagine the price of wood could be one factor, availabilty of quality wood as well.

For me, I am in my early 30's and just got into woodworking. Two things preventing me from starting earlier. First, living in an apartment after college meant no space (or money - thank you student loans). Secondly, my dad was a lawyer that worked 20 hours a day so I didnt have that influence.

Something else, these types of forums only represent a small population of those into woodworking. They are out there though.

As to NYW, every Friday when I get home I set my DVR to record that and Wood Works that air during the weekend on DIY (I can never seem to find an episode on PBS).

[rob mason]

Hi, Rod,

Based on forty years of observation, I'm going to respectfully disagree. The only ones who watch Norm are the same silver-hairs we see at woodworker shows. Young guys today spend money on video games, not tools. Over time, I traded up in machinery and tools, selling the previous one as I found better. Even fifteen-to-twenty years ago, advertise a table saw or radial arm saw and Saturday morning there would be five guys fighting over who got to pay 50% of retail. Today, on craigslist at any given time, there will half-a-dozen table saws and another half-dozen radial arm saws going begging at $25-50. This past weekend, a Parks planer which would have been a bidding war at $500 a few years back when that was real money, couldn't find a buyer at today's $200 deflated dollars.

Brag about your hand-cut dovetails? Norm's wham-bam-dado-brad is about as involved as the few younger woodworkers want to be. More important that the project can be build in a weekend. Same with ham radio - used to be a major hobby with Morse code proficiency as a requirement and there were bragging rights in the clubs for ability at speed reading and sending Morse code. The few young amateur radio geeks who buy a license today don't even know who Samuel Morse was.

Seems we're the last echo of a dying craft. Enjoy it, because the next generation probably won't even know the hobby existed.

thnx, jack vines

Um... I'm 40 and have been woodworking for 10 years. I ONLY got into the hobby by watching Norm. I have made some priceless family heirlooms as a result.

I think you may be looking at a narrow field by saying the only people who watch Norm are older - still cant figure your logic on that one.

[J. Z. Guest]

Dick, no I didn't miss it. Reading the first cell in the table: "Cut 1 pc. 101" long, surface plane to 1/2", (final thickness)then cut 1 pc. 20" long, 1 pc. 27" long and 1 pc. 53" long. Rip & joint 20" pc. 9" wide.... etc.

It seems the jointing is just for edging and planing is everything else.

[J. Z. Guest]

Jacob - The one that got me was that he used rabbets & brads to hold on both the front & back of the bottom (hidden) drawer. Even on a light duty piece, I don't think this is a good plan. I can just see my wife having a moment of clumsiness and dropping that bottom drawer and having it go to pieces. My pride couldn't take that. ;)

The other two drawers have the front held on with half-blind dovetails and the backs with dados set in from the back 1/4". This is OK with me.

Jim, hows about a few photos of the one you made?

I just bought the wood Sunday, hard maple. Thinking of trying my hand with dye. (will try it on some scrap to see if SWMBO likes it or would rather just have poly. Again.)

[Jim Becker]

Um... I'm 40 and have been woodworking for 10 years.

I started watching Norm in my very late 30s and took up woodworking in my early 40s. That's like only ten years ago. I never had woodworking in high school (opting for drafting and electrical shop at the time) so came to it as an adult. My father also was not (and still isn't) a woodworker...outside of building a couple R/C aircraft before deciding to have others build for him.

[Charles P. Wright]

Hi, Rod,

Based on forty years of observation, I'm going to respectfully disagree. The only ones who watch Norm are the same silver-hairs we see at woodworker shows.
I'm 26 and can't get enough of NYW.

[Jack Vines]

There's got to be someone on here in the advertising/marketing/TV industry with access to the Nielson ratings. Today, TV can tell an advertiser, and that is what Norm is about, who is watching. Maybe he skews younger than I think. Let the data speak.

However, one thing which is indisputable, used woodworking machines don't sell as rapidly or bring as much money as they did years ago. I've been following this market for forty years and there are more table saws, jointers, band saws, radial arm saws for sale and for a much smaller percentage of retail than ever before. If young guys are so into woodworking, why are there so many machines not selling or selling so cheaply? Every week on craigslist, I see machines in the free section which would have brought decent money years ago. The holy grail of the woodworking hobby has been the Delta Unisaw. Forever, a complete working Uni was worth 50% of retail. Today, 33% is more like the average used price. On any given week, from estate sales and craigslist, I could fill a shop with working tools at scrap price. Where is the demand for machines if all these young guys are into woodworking?

thnx, jack vines

thnx, jack vines

[Peter Quadarella]

Not sure, but here's some ideas:
New machines are cheaper than ever with the influx of Asian stuff.
The newer generation is more inclined to buy new than used.
More people upgrading from carpenter level stuff so more machines for sale.
The Delta name has gone downhill so resales are cheaper (if I were buying a tablesaw I would not consider a unisaw).

[Jeffrey Makiel]

As rough as Norm was in the early days of woodworking, he was the only modern woodworker show in town, and I really enjoyed his show. I still do. It sure beat watching Barnaby Jones.

There was a poll here on SMC that showed the age distribution not long ago. It clearly indicated an older crowd with fewer folks under 30. I think the medium was in the 40s and 50s.

Further, when I go to woodworking shows, I rarely see folks under 40. In fact, the average age seems to be in the late 50s and early 60s. This is also true for other non-woodworking hobby shows like model railroading.

I don't think it's a function of time and money for most since I notice that younger folks do little around their parent's home these days. I also notice that few have part time jobs and yet have a new car when they turn 18 years old.

Another indication of declining interest in the crafts is the decline of hobby shops in my area. They are all almost gone, and I live in a densely populated area of the country. One of the last hobby shops near my home has recently closed. The proprietor stated that his customers were older and dying off, and younger folks were just not taking their place in any significant amount.

Right now, I believe woodworking is in its heyday. And Norm helped make it happen even though brad nails in dados still make me cringe.:) But, 20 years from now, I don't think a Norm-like person will be able to rally interest when no shred of inclination exists. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

-Jeff :)

[J. Z. Guest]

Every time Norm or NYW comes up, it eventually turns into a discussion of whether he and his show are good or bad. I'd like to avoid that here, if at all possible. :)

[Jim Becker]

This thread has really got off-topic at this point...good discussion, however.

There are many factors that affect the age distribution of folks in this hobby. Frankly, the same factors affect the age distribution of folks in any hobby these days. The business world and family obligations leave a lot less time for hobbies. Folks leisure activity choices have expanded due to technology and many choose things that don't involve building things, no matter whether via wood or anything else. And the new "young" from a lifestyle standpoint is also a lot older than it was years ago.

I wish I would have "discovered" woodworking earlier, but my circumstances didn't support that. Until I was able to buy a home, there were no tools in my life outside of a screwdriver and hammer for hanging pictures. My woodworking to that point was constructing some R/C planes (another hobby that has skewed way older) on the dining room table. But once in that house, I started to watch TOH and NYW weekly, began with some nice home improvement projects and moved on to woodworking with mostly horrible and uninformed tool choices. The Internet wasn't really cooking yet at that point and Sears was still the mecca for tools, if you know what I mean... ;) I didn't have the disposable income that I had later on, either.

So regardless of Norm's changes in technique and project complexity over time, I do think that I'm a good example of someone "caught" by his influence in my thirties. Which is at least something of a younger age. :) Hmm...isn't the 30s something like what being a teenager used to be? LOL

[Joe Cunningham]

Brag about your hand-cut dovetails? Norm's wham-bam-dado-brad is about as involved as the few younger woodworkers want to be.

I am taking a class at my local Woodcraft. Half the class is under 40, the other half retired. [edit] One of the instructors is in his 20s and has been doing this for 8 years.

I do mostly hand tool work and am 38. I might consider some power tools to cut down on the grunt work, but enjoy hunting around for old tools. The first joints I cut were hand-cut dovetails--ugly but functional and they still hold the box for my chisels.

I got hooked by Norm and NYW. I've never used a brad nailer in my life and don't plan on it.

[David Keller NC]

I'm one of those that think's Norms joinery methods are neither good nor bad, just sometimes inappropriate to the piece that he's building (and sometimes highly appropriate).

But back to your original question - do you have the tools and ability to use something other than the glue and brads that are in the plans? If you're interested in learning to cut dovetails (whether by power or by hand), this is a pretty good project to try it out on. Some will suggest a number of practice boards before using your new-found skills on an actual project, but I don't. I wouldn't suggest learning the technique on a 5-drawer chest of drawers, either, though.

If you've no interest in dovetails, there are other drawer construction methods that will be a compromise between the ultimate strength and craftmanship of dovetails, and nailing the drawers together. One (and I think it's already been mentioned) is a lock-miter joint on the front and backs of the drawer. The joint provides more face-grain gluing area, and a mechnical lock. So long as you have a router table, they're also very easy to make.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I often heard Norm state that the 'brads act like clamps while the glue dries'. I don't see how brads are a substitute for clamp pressure.

Considering the rapid speed that modern yellow glue sets at, possibly as fast as 20 minutes, I'm not sure I'd fuss with brads and risk blow thru. Besides, I prefer to maintain real clamp pressure via woodworking clamps as per the glue manufacturer's direction for a nice strong glue joint.

I'm not sure how much time brads may save, or whether they provide any significant additional strength beyond the glue itself.

-Jeff :)

[John Shuk]

There's got to be someone on here in the advertising/marketing/TV industry with access to the Nielson ratings. Today, TV can tell an advertiser, and that is what Norm is about, who is watching. Maybe he skews younger than I think. Let the data speak.

However, one thing which is indisputable, used woodworking machines don't sell as rapidly or bring as much money as they did years ago. I've been following this market for forty years and there are more table saws, jointers, band saws, radial arm saws for sale and for a much smaller percentage of retail than ever before. If young guys are so into woodworking, why are there so many machines not selling or selling so cheaply? Every week on craigslist, I see machines in the free section which would have brought decent money years ago. The holy grail of the woodworking hobby has been the Delta Unisaw. Forever, a complete working Uni was worth 50% of retail. Today, 33% is more like the average used price. On any given week, from estate sales and craigslist, I could fill a shop with working tools at scrap price. Where is the demand for machines if all these young guys are into woodworking?

thnx, jack vines

thnx, jack vines

Money has been pretty easy to come by in the form of credit in the past few years.:rolleyes: It's led to some pretty big problems lately. Hard to justify somebody else's used stuff when new has a warranty. I think the tablesaw has won out over the radial arm saw as well so they are relegated to the bottom of the heap.

[Kirk Poore]

Money has been pretty easy to come by in the form of credit in the past few years.:rolleyes: It's led to some pretty big problems lately. Hard to justify somebody else's used stuff when new has a warranty. I think the tablesaw has won out over the radial arm saw as well so they are relegated to the bottom of the heap.

I also think there has been a change in attitude toward older machines, say over 10 years old. To younger generations raised with computer equipment:
(1) You can't fix it, other than swapping out a small subset of components.
(2) You can't get compatible components for most older equipment.
(3) Newer equipment has more features and runs better (i.e., faster) than old equipment.

None of this is true for Unisaw-class WW equipment, with the possible exception of more features. But many people see rust or peeling paint instead of quality, and don't want to invest the time and a little bit of money to bring back quality. After they're discovered they like woodworking, but have been frustrated by their second plastic-and-aluminum wonder gizmo multi-tool wearing out in a year or two, they may begin the search for quality and durability.

As for the others, well, there have always been benchtop junk 10" tablesaws and if you only need it twice a year, maybe that's good enough.

Oh, and I don't use brads either. But it does make for a nice drinking game when you're not working in the shop.:) Norm is a good inspiration even if I don't make his projects.

Kirk

[David Keller NC]

Jeremy - If you haven't already decided on what method to use, the latest issue of FWW that came in the mail today has a feature article entitled "The Right Drawer for Your Project", and the cover photo shows a case with dovetailed, sliding dovetailed, rabbetted and pinned, and false-front drawers. I haven't read it yet, but it might be worth picking up a copy at the newstand if you don't already have a subscription.

[J. Z. Guest]

I'll look for that at Borders next Thursday. (I'm there for Chess Night anyway) Thanks for the tip.

I'm thinking lock miter is a good compromise between strength and practicality. Being a jewelry chest, it doesn't need to be super-strong. But I'd like something a little stronger & classier than rabbet & brads.