Bought the VFD, HELP

[Joe Jensen]

I bought a Teco Fluxmaster 50 –NEMA 4X VFD. Looks like a very cool box with a ton of flexibility, and it's sealed for dust with a huge heat sink. Funny thing, the manual is very detailed, but it's like 2 inches by 3 inches, printed in like 2pt font http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowconfused.gif
Maybe the bid for printing didn't specify a size or font. Even with reading glasses it's hard to read. At least the printing is clear.

On to my questions. I was planning to place the VFD inside the jointer stand in place of the existing mag starter. I would like to use the factory start and stop buttons which are on the front of the machine, and separate from the mag starter. Can I use those momentary contact buttons with this VFD?

Here is a link to the manual.
http://www.tecowestinghouse.com/Manuals/FM50%20Instruction%20&%20User%20Manual_0405.pdf (http://www.tecowestinghouse.com/Manuals/FM50%20Instruction%20&%20User%20Manual_0405.pdf)

Here is a pic of the buttons.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/_NIK2955Large.jpg

[Joe Meazle]

I dont think the momentary switch will work but I am new at this too. I have this one to add to my FM50 on the Centauro BS.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/110-220V-Paddle-On-Off-Switch/H8243. You might be able to find somthing that would fit in the exisiting plate. Push buttons can be found fairly cheap.

Mike Hendrick used a Rockler router taouble switch on his jointer withthe vfd. He should be along soon.

[Matt Meiser]

Short answer is yes, you can reuse them. But you'll probably need to add a relay or two to use them. It looks like your Nema 4X FM50 doesn't have the relay output that the non-Nema 4X units have. I believe that can be used to seal in the start. What I'd probably do is buy one 120V coil relay with 2 poles. I believe Radio Shack has one that would work. Or you could use two single pole relays. Use one pole to seal in the start circuit. Use the other pole in place of the FW switch in the FM50's wiring diagram.

[Steve Rowe]

Quick answer is the START will work and the STOP will not in its current configuration. Your VFD needs contactor blocks that are normally open (NO) contacts and your STOP button has a normally closed (NC) contact block. You can pull the switch panel to verify the above either by markings or with a multimeter. If you use a multimeter, you will probably have to disconnect the wires. You have 2 choices:
1) Pull the switch panel off, check the brand of contactor blocks and order a NO contact block from your local electric supply house.
2) If you can't find just the block, replace the STOP pushbutton assembly and buy a NO block to fit the switch. The pushbutton is probably a standard 22mm assembly. One source is Automation Direct.
Steve

[Alan Schaffter]

Unless you get more complicated using relays or rewiring the mag starter, you can't use the momentary mag starter buttons (typically mag starter buttons are momentary contact - the start is a normally open contact (N.O.) while the and the stop is normally closed (N.O.).

According to the diagram on pp 38, the switches required for remote fwd/stop and rev/stop control of your VFD are latching and not momentary.

One option (this is what I would do) depending on the design, you could rewire and reuse the mag starter. Run 220V power leads to the VFD and the mag starter, wire the motor to the VFD, remove the power leads inside the starter that connect to the starter's contacts, but leave the wires that power the transformer if equipped and/or power the relay (contactor) coil connected so the contactor can still be operated by the start and stop buttons, but so NO power goes to or through the contacts. One set of main or auxilary contacts are used for "latching the relay" and are wired through the start/stop circuit- leave them connected. Use one set of available relay contacts (formerly used to provide power to the motor) to operate the FWD/Stop circuit on the VFD (wire between pins 3 & 5 of terminal block TM-2), since the VFD control is low voltage you don't need to but you can bypass any over-current heaters in the starter contact circuit. You need to know what you are doing and be careful. You don't want to let the smoke out of the VFD!!!

You also need to set (program) the functions:

set Function F_10 to 1 (external operation control)
set Function F_03 to 0 (FWD/Stop, REV/Stop)
set Function F_22 to 1 (reverse locked out)

Due to high currents possible you can fry a VFD in a flash if you wire any switch between the output of the VFD and the motor and activate it at the wrong time. Do not do it!!! Also, it is possible, but not advisable to stop the motor by securing power to the VFD. It is better to use the VFD's controls to stop the motor, then you can turn off the VFD. That is how I wired and operate the VFD I put on my drill press. The original mechanical (click on, click off) red/green buttons control power to the VFD, while the little toggle switch (VFD remote) below the remote speed pot, starts and stops motor rotation. I recommend you add a power switch ahead of the VFD. (I also added a digital tach)

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/DP-7.JPG

[Joe Jensen]

Unless you get more complicated using relays or rewiring the mag starter, you can't use the momentary mag starter buttons (typically mag starter buttons are momentary contact - the start is a normally open contact (N.O.) while the and the stop is normally closed (N.O.).

According to the diagram on pp 38, the switches required for remote fwd/stop and rev/stop control of your VFD are latching and not momentary.

One option (this is what I would do) depending on the design, you could rewire and reuse the mag starter. Run 220V power leads to the VFD and the mag starter, wire the motor to the VFD, remove the power leads inside the starter that connect to the starter's contacts, but leave the wires that power the transformer if equipped and/or power the relay (contactor) coil connected so the contactor can still be operated by the start and stop buttons, but so NO power goes to or through the contacts. One set of main or auxilary contacts are used for "latching the relay" and are wired through the start/stop circuit- leave them connected. Use one set of available relay contacts (formerly used to provide power to the motor) to operate the FWD/Stop circuit on the VFD (wire between pins 3 & 5 of terminal block TM-2), since the VFD control is low voltage you don't need to but you can bypass any over-current heaters in the starter contact circuit. You need to know what you are doing and be careful. You don't want to let the smoke out of the VFD!!!

You also need to set (program) the functions:

set Function F_10 to 1 (external operation control)
set Function F_03 to 0 (FWD/Stop, REV/Stop)
set Function F_22 to 1 (reverse locked out)

Due to high currents possible you can fry a VFD in a flash if you wire any switch between the output of the VFD and the motor and activate it at the wrong time. Do not do it!!! Also, it is possible, but not advisable to stop the motor by securing power to the VFD. It is better to use the VFD's controls to stop the motor, then you can turn off the VFD. That is how I wired and operate the VFD I put on my drill press. The original mechanical (click on, click off) red/green buttons control power to the VFD, while the little toggle switch (VFD remote) below the remote speed pot, starts and stops motor rotation. (I also added a digital tach)


I really like your digital tach :)

I read the manual the same way. I was hoping there would be a programmable input for the control, but alas not with this VFD. If I do as you suggest, essentially the original mag starter becomes the switch for the VFD. I'd always have the VFD + Mag switch plugged into the wall. When I push the start button, the mag swich would contact. I'd have one side of the "on switch" wiring the input side of the mag starter, and the other on the output. I'd have diconnection AC power from the mag starter, and only powered the coil. Is that how you see it?

[Alan Schaffter]

TIME OUT- did you get an FM50 1XX, 2XX or 4XX? (series) VFD? Do you know the 4XX requires 3 phase input? Do you have that? I expect not since you need a VFD to power a 3 phase jointer (and not to control the speed). You need a 100 series (single phase, 120V input) or 200 series (single phase (and three phase) 220V input) unit, depending on hp of jointer motor! 101X for 1 hp- highest hp in this series, or 201X for 1 hp, 202X for 2 hp


I really like your digital tach :)

I read the manual the same way. I was hoping there would be a programmable input for the control, but alas not with this VFD. If I do as you suggest, essentially the original mag starter becomes the switch for the VFD. I'd always have the VFD + Mag switch plugged into the wall. When I push the start button, the mag switch would contact.

The mag starter controls the VFD operation, NOT power to the VFD. Yes, Unless you add a separate main switch, the mag starter and the VFD would always be connected to power. A 20A household wall switch, or even a 15A, since no motor starting current will be surging through it when it is turned on. The Grizzly switch like Joe posted would work, but you might be tempted to use it to turn the unit off when the motor was running. Yes, hit start and mag switch would contact.


I'd have one side of the "on switch" wiring the input side of the mag starter, and the other on the output. I'd have diconnection AC power from the mag starter, and only powered the coil. Is that how you see it?

The existing "start/stop" buttons would remain wired exactly as they are now. The only reason you still need to provide 220V power to the mag switch is to provide power to the transformer* that should be inside the case. 220V will NOT be wired to the relay contacts anymore. Most of these older units use transformers to make 24 volts to operate the relay coils and so only 24V runs through the start and stop buttons, also. If you post a pic of the inside of the mag switch box I could tell for sure.

You would connect one set of (now vacant) contacts inside the mag switch in series with terminals 3 and 5 of terminal block TM2 on the VFD (where you would wire any VFD remote control switch.) When you hit start (mag starter button) the relay activates and latches (self-energizes through a set of contacts) . All contacts close including those that you have wired in series with terminals 3 and 5 of the VFD. The VFD starts the motor. Hit stop (the mag switch relay latching circuit opens), and the mag starter relay opens causing the connection between terminals 3 and 5 to open. The VFD will stop the motor. You should add a separate main power switch to secure power to both mag starter and VFD.


* since this was a 3 phase jointer and had a 3 phase mag starter, the contactor likely had 3 or maybe four sets of contacts. Also only two wires of the incoming 3 phase are connected to the transformer, likely to a taps marked 208 V. Most of these transformers had multiple input taps. You could use the 208V taps if it doesn't have 220V taps, when you rewire it for single phase 220V, but chose the most appropriate. I assume your VFD is a 220 V unit since the 110V units only go up to 1 hp, oops, just looked at the manual, see note above in red!!!

Easier to draw than describe. If you are still not following I'll draw a schematic.

[Joe Jensen]

TIME OUT- did you get an FM50 1XX, 2XX or 4XX? (series) VFD? Do you know the 4XX requires 3 phase input? Do you have that? I expect not since you need a VFD to power a 3 phase jointer (and not to control the speed). You need a 100 series (single phase, 120V input) or 200 series (single phase (and three phase) 220V input) unit, depending on hp of jointer motor! 101X for 1 hp- highest hp in this series, or 201X for 1 hp, 202X for 2 hp

I'm good, I bought the FM50-203-N4, 1 or 3 Phase, 3HP max

I understand this all pretty well. I got a BSEE 24 years ago. When I was shopping for VFDs I assumed/hoped that they would have a programmable input for either continuous on or momentary contact switches. This one didn't, maybe some do. I was originally planning to remove the mag starter, and place the VFD in the jointer base. Once it arrived and I saw how massive the heat sink is, I started to worry about the heat. Since I was now on the fence with respect to mounting inside or outside the base, the ease of using the mag starter as a control made the choice easy. I'll mount the VFD on the back, and use the exiting controls :)

[Joe Jensen]

One more question. The manual says I need to use shielded wire for the motor. They show the braid in the manual even. Is this really necessary? I doubt the Borg has sheilded 4 conductor 12 ga wire :confused:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe...it's hard to say if you "need" shielded wire or not. If you don't use shielded wire and you find that you can turn on the jointer and then the DC comes on automatically and you don't have to use the remote...... It could cause some really odd things to happen and I'm not sure you can predict what it will be. I suspect that the VFD uses some high frequency output and there for you will have a certain amount of "rf" radiating from it. Without the shielded wire you will have even more. What this could interfere with would vary from my shop to your shop and everyone in between!

[Tom Veatch]

Thinking in terms of a Faraday cage, would running the wires inside properly grounded aluminum flex conduit provide any RF shielding?

[Matt Meiser]

I didn't use shielded cable with the FM50 I had and didn't have any trouble. Neither did the guy who's shop my club meets at. Of course that doesn't mean you won't.

[Alan Schaffter]

I'm good, I bought the FM50-203-N4, 1 or 3 Phase, 3HP max

I understand this all pretty well. I got a BSEE 24 years ago. When I was shopping for VFDs I assumed/hoped that they would have a programmable input for either continuous on or momentary contact switches. This one didn't, maybe some do. I was originally planning to remove the mag starter, and place the VFD in the jointer base. Once it arrived and I saw how massive the heat sink is, I started to worry about the heat. Since I was now on the fence with respect to mounting inside or outside the base, the ease of using the mag starter as a control made the choice easy. I'll mount the VFD on the back, and use the exiting controls :)

Whew! When referencing your first post and the manual, as I wrote my response, I caught the 4X part, thought that might have been a typo, and that you got a 400 series VFD. I thought, oh, no! I got my VFD's (for my lathe and DP) on Ebay, so was never really certain what I was getting until it arrived. Luckily, like you, I found the manuals online. Sounds like you will be good to go.

It also sounds like you don't need it, but just let me know if you want me to send a best guess (not having seen your mag starter) schematic. I have Delta mag starters on my TS (bought it that way), added one to my jointer (so I could put a second, more conveniently located, set of controls on a stalk- I'll add pics below since this is something you can do also), and rewired the existing LCV mag starter on my shaper, from 3 ph to single phase. I also wired my DC low voltage manual* control with 24V power contactor. *My DC system is normally operated in a fully automatic mode- each machine triggers its own (homemade electro-pneumatic actuated) autogate and starts the DC blower. Though I have been a life-long tinkerer, like you, it has been a LOOONG time since I had this stuff in the classroom.

Yet another option: Use the mag starter (disable auto reset if it has this function) as it is (except wired for single phase) to control input power to the VFD. Since the VFD should protect the motor you can bypass the heaters. Add a single remote (stalk mounted?) mechanical push-on, push-off pushbutton (available at radio shack) to control VFD operation (start and stop the motor). Wire this switch as in my earlier post to terminals 3 and 5 on TM2 on the VFD. Though mine is wired differently (my two buttons control the mag starter), appearance wise this would be similar to the installation on my jointer. After reading the manual again, I see no real restriction on using a mag starter to control input power to the VFD. You just should not switch the VFD input power to control the motor.

As far as shielding, I did not shield the power cords on either VFD I installed and didn't use shielded wire for the remote, low voltage, control circuits either. If you decide to use shielded cable, you should be able to find and buy what you need "off the spool" at any decent commercial electrical supply place.

I mentioned about not putting a disconnect between the VFD and the motor, but please read and heed all warnings- every VFD manual is filled with them- and for a good reason.

Good luck on your install.

Jointer LVC (mag starter) box being wired. New set of LVC (on/off) buttons installed in box mounted to a homemade stalk made from 1/2" pipe. The cabinet switches have temporarily been removed and will be replaced with momentary contact start/stop buttons like those on the stalk. Cover plates/buttons are Delta from Ebay- internal switch mechanisms are custom mounted momentary contact buttons from Radio Shack since Delta parts were WAAAYYY too expensive. (LVC control buttons can be daisy-chained so each station has full start/stop capability)

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/Jointer-1.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/Jointer-2.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/thumbs/Jointer-4.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/Jointer-3.JPG