Freud dado set always 1/64" off

[Dan Mitchell]

I have Freud 8" "Pro" dado set. I haven't used the set much yet, just occasionally to plow out a broad area for things like lap joints. I recently cut a series of grooves with the set in a narrow strip of oak, to be used as a gauge set, using every possible blade combination. The set is supposed to cut 1/4" to 13/16" grooves w/o any shims used. Each and every groove is ~1/64" NARROWER than it is supposed to be. Why would this be the case? I ran 2 cuts using each outer blade separately, thinking perhaps one was cutting a bit narrow, accounting for the missing 1/64, but both produce exactly the same width groove. I suppose one may have tips the right WIDTH, but INSET 1/64th. To the eye, this does not appear to be the case. I guess I could just always insert shims to compensate, but that's kind of a PITA. Is this normal? Is it supposed to be to accommodate "dimensional" lumber? Am I missing something here?


I posted this question on another forum & was told a Frued rep lurked here who might have some suggestions.


TIA

Dan

[glenn bradley]

I'm sure Charles will chime in. He does on most Freud concerns. If all cuts are 1/64th off it must be the one blade you are using for all cuts. This would mean the outer blades. I would mount each outer blade separately and make a cut to find "the winner". Or just use calipers if you have them handy. FWIW, my SD508 cuts dead on. I haven't even used a shim with it as I usually plane to whole sizes.

[James A Hill]

Dan,
That has been my experience as well. I've never really thought of it as a "problem", but more of a nuance. The chance of being able to hit the desired dimension is better if it's a little undersized, since it's pretty easy to "add a little bit" by adding 1 or 2 shims. However, if the basic setup with no shims ended up being oversized even slightly, the only recourse would be to remove one of the chippers and use a whole bunch of shims to get it up to the right size. This arrangement has worked well for me with the new "leaner" plywoods that we're seeing these days.

Nevertheless, I know what you're saying especially with box joints. I think freud makes a dedicated "box joint" dado that may be right on without shims, but who would buy that when you've already got the dado kit?

I have found that the addition of the heaviest shim (in the SD208 kit) brings it right up to the major gradations to the nearest 1/16".

Jim

[Roger Lance]

Its not normal...but it sounds like as you added various chipper cutters that you continued to get uniform results that were 1/64" narrow so we know that the chippers are ok and you do not have a problem with them...your problem must be with your two outside cutters....when you use them together you are not getting 1/4" but are 1/64" short...right?...normally there is a "pad" on the inner face of both outside cutters, I suspect that one or both of these pads are missing on your set...solution is to get your dealer to replace through Freud your outside chippers or for you to adhere some material to the inside of these blades that will bring them to this 1/64" dimension and life will be good....easier than straightening out a PM2000 no doubt.

[Jason Beam]

Complete and total non-dado thought:

Could you swap the two outside cutters? Maybe the teeth are offset 1/64th? Never used a dado, but just an idea. Unless each outer blade is supposed to go on a specific side?

[Tom Kelley]

Dan, I have the same set and found that I have to fudge around with shims to get the cut I want. I've never measured it but it could have been 1/64th off. :confused:

[Brent Smith]

Could be a dumb question, but how are you setting up the outer blades? Are the printed sides facing out (away from the chippers as they should be) or are they facing in (towards the chippers).

[Dan Mitchell]

[quote=...easier than straightening out a PM2000 no doubt.[/quote]

Huh? I have a PM2000, after the usual TS tuneup procedures, it cuts perfectly.

The dado is off the ~1/64 on a 1/4" groove. There is no "pad" on the outer blades on my set. And yes, I am placing them correctly. I am able to get the grooves to the correct size with shims, and I understand that an error on the narrow side is easier to remedy than an error on the wide side, but how about NO ERROR at all? I assume since there is no mention from Freud of it "cutting short", that it's not supposed to do this.

Thanks for the replies, I'm anxious to see if we hear from the Freud man.

Dan

[Roger Lance]

I know you have a PM2000....so it is what I told you, there are no "pads" or in effect attached shimes on the inside of your outer blades...undoubtedly, the "pads" or shimes I am refering to are 1/128" thick and in combination total your 1/64"...capish???...this is not difficult...go to Freud...or adhere 1/128" shimes to the inside of your outer blades...or leave as is if it is intentional by Freud to accomodate for todays plywood...I don't know....

[Steve Jenkins]

I know you don't want to shim it but for the meantime instead of buying a set of shims, vanilla folders make excellant ones. They are very consistantly .010 thick and hold up great.

[Mike Cutler]

Dan

If you've done everything in the instructions, then something is amiss with the set.
I disagree that you should have to use shims, unless they were suppiled with the set, to get the desired thickness.
I have a Freud dado set from the early 90's and it requires no shims at all. Perfect increments of an 1/8" or a 1/16th.



"Nevertheless, I know what you're saying especially with box joints. I think freud makes a dedicated "box joint" dado that may be right on without shims, but who would buy that when you've already got the dado kit?"

James
The reason for the box joint set is the configuration of the teeth. The teeth on the box joint set are Flat Top Ground (FTG), and are more of a ripping configuration, which is the way box joints are normally cut and presented to the blade.
A "typical" dado set is an Alternating Top Bevel(ATB) configuration. A little more agressive.

The ATB configuration will leave "little ears" at the cormers of a box joint. The FTG does not. A box joint can be an exposed joint, so having a nice clean corner is desired.

Yep. I'm a guy that has both sets. I've only used the box joint set once, but I was really happy with the end results.

[glenn bradley]

I have no pads on my SD508(?) . . . Charles, Charles McCracken, where for art thou? Something is not right here, call Freud.

[Dave Tinley]

Dan-
I have the same set as you, and have also noticed the same thing. At first I thought I was milling my lumber undersized, but after using a digital caliper I found it was not the milled wood, but that it was the dadoe set.
It is really frustrating with plywood.
I keep hoping to find a "dial a width" set that is in my budget ;)

[Tony Bilello]

with the same problem. I have owned many of these sets in the past and the older sets were always right on the mark.
Question......Did you buy them at the BORG?
The set that I own now is the first and only set of any kind of blades I ever bought from the BORG. I just figured that even though it's a Freud, maybe the BORG buys what I used to call "factory seconds". And YES, it is annoying.

Tony B

[Charles McCracken]

Dan,

The SD200 Series and DD200 Series Dado Sets are intentionally made to cut slightly under the nominal dimensions. The primary reason for this is that many are used on saws with much less accuracy than your PM2000 and and if they were on size they could cut wider than desired. You can always shim up but you can't shim down.

[Brent Smith]

Dan,

The SD200 Series and DD200 Series Dado Sets are intentionally made to cut slightly under the nominal dimensions. The primary reason for this is that many are used on saws with much less accuracy than your PM2000 and and if they were on size they could cut wider than desired. You can always shim up but you can't shim down.

Hi Charles,

A couple of questions..... Is there anything on the packaging or in the instructions to point this out? If not, perhaps it might be an idea to add something. Second, which Freud Dado sets are made to cut to the stated dimensions?

[Charles McCracken]

Brent,

The packaging does indicate that the dimensions given are nominal as opposed to actual. The SD300, SD400 and SD500 Series are all on actual size and the SD600 comes with instructions to dial in actual dimensions.

[Dan Mitchell]

Charles-Thanks for the info. To me, the term "nominal" means a quantity could vary in either direction (+/-), not just one, in the case of my set, thinner. It sounds like the cheaper 200 series simply has a looser tolerance. If mine is 1/64 narrow, and this is nominal, by the standard usage of the term, you have to wonder if someone doesn't get one that is wider by a similar degree, which would of course be impossible to address with shims. After all, there's nothing preventing someone with a "sloppier" saw from buying one of the more expensive, apparently higher-tolerance sets.

Frankly, had I known this was the case with the various models, I probably would have opted for something else.

Thanks again for the replies, everyone.

Dan

[Brent Smith]

Brent,

The packaging does indicate that the dimensions given are nominal as opposed to actual. The SD300, SD400 and SD500 Series are all on actual size and the SD600 comes with instructions to dial in actual dimensions.

Thanks Charles...good to know.

[Charles McCracken]

To me, the term "nominal" means a quantity could vary in either direction (+/-), not just one, in the case of my set, thinner. It sounds like the cheaper 200 series simply has a looser tolerance. If mine is 1/64 narrow, and this is nominal, by the standard usage of the term, you have to wonder if someone doesn't get one that is wider by a similar degree, which would of course be impossible to address with shims. After all, there's nothing preventing someone with a "sloppier" saw from buying one of the more expensive, apparently higher-tolerance sets.

Dan

Dan,

I understand and do not dispute your interpretation of the word nominal. In general it could be taken as being under or oversize. In the case of our dado sets the tolerances are held to within a few thousandths from set to set so there is no risk that one will be oversize. In spite of being somewhat of a perfectionist myself, I am not sure I understand the need for exactly on size dadoes to a fractional inch width. Some woods compress when cutting and will create under size grooves anyway and the mating piece for the dado will vary in thickness - for wood that is purchased already milled it can vary greatly and even for wood that you plane yourself there can be a variance from one day to the next as moisture content varies.

[Ron Knapp]

You’re not alone. I used a Freud set while taking a woodworking class and none of the sizes were correct. Fortunately the school also had a Systematic set which was right on. I had wondered why the Freud set seemed brand new and then I found out it was because nobody ever wanted to use it.

[Chris Padilla]

Dan,

I understand and do not dispute your interpretation of the word nominal. In general it could be taken as being under or oversize. In the case of our dado sets the tolerances are held to within a few thousandths from set to set so there is no risk that one will be oversize. In spite of being somewhat of a perfectionist myself, I am not sure I understand the need for exactly on size dadoes to a fractional inch width. Some woods compress when cutting and will create under size grooves anyway and the mating piece for the dado will vary in thickness - for wood that is purchased already milled it can vary greatly and even for wood that you plane yourself there can be a variance from one day to the next as moisture content varies.

With all due respect, Charles, the packaging and notations should be much clearer so that assumptions are not made about sizes. 1/64" is more than a few thousandths...it is like 5x a few thousandths (0.015625" to be exact; "few" to me means 3).

I agree about your thoughts on wood...it is a fickle medium and "moves" around a bit (or a lot!) but that is not the point of the issue here. If the thing is 1/64" under and purposely designed that way then it should be explicitly stated as such. Period. Make it easy on your customers.

[Alan Schaffter]

I have another brand not the Freud dado set, but I approach cutting dados the way I approach setting the depth of cut, the angle of cut, etc. or any woodworking operation. I set it as close as possible by using the "nominal" size, fiducial marks, cursors, tapes, etc.

But, then I make a test cut, and adjust the setup. I make additional adjustments and test cuts as necessary. I realize this is less convenient than being able to trust an absolute setting, size, etc. but I do this anyway because it is rare that cursors, etc. are exact and even more rare that "standard" size plywood is the advertised size. And despite a good, accurate, planer with digital height gauge, I sometimes mill my stock a bit under or over the size I had intended.

I always adjust the dado blade to cut a dado appropriate for the stock that will be inserted into it. In the case of a true 3/4" panel that may mean I cut a dado that is slightly larger to allow for glue or expansion.

When I use my dado to cut box joints, I adjust the dado to match the peg on my jig, not the other way around.

Yes, it would be nice for something to be the size advertised, but not essential.

[Dave Lehnert]

There you guys go again.:D

I have ALWAYS been happy with my cheap steel 6" set now I know it is junk!!!

Anyway...... I never once thought a dado set would be dead on without shims.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Most of the cabinets I have built had plywood as the main material with solid wood for the face frames and shelf fronts. I have a set of Freuds and would rather they were undersized and I can adjust them wider with shims. If they cut the actual size...say 3/4"...and the plywood is undersized it would be more difficult to get the right size dado for the plywood.

[Charles P. Wright]

If you are like me and have a contractors saw that isn't tuned terribly well (i.e., it seemed OK from the factory and I haven't had occasion to doubt it) I don't know what my blade runout is. If the 1/4" set was actually a 1/4, I would get a wider groove than 1/4", thus basically increasing the minimum groove depth. Like you, Charles M. and others have pointed out; you can shim bigger but not smaller.

I suspect that I am a reasonable part of the target market for the SD206 (and maybe SD208), and for one am happy with Charles's answer. I wouldn't have thought of this myself if he didn't point it out, but I am glad their engineers have thought about this.

[Howard Acheson]

Charles, the way I look at it, when used relating to a dado, nominal should mean that it cuts a nominal sized dado. All it takes is a slightly out of parallel sawblade alighment and a dado will cut wider than it's machined dimension. So, to me, nominal means the cut, not the cutter.

[Tony Bilello]

His statement "Frankly, had I known this was the case with the various models, I probably would have opted for something else."
My next set will be Systematic. They were always on target. It seems to me that the term 'nominal' can now be used instead of "may not be accurate".

Tony B

[John Keeton]

This is somewhat divergent from the OP, it seems in today's market the SD606 (or SD608) is the better choice. I know it is more money - quite a bit more. But time is money. If one does dados on a regular basis, and values their time at all, it really doesn't take all that long to make up the $140 difference.

Setup is quick and it is easy to dial in. Test cuts are required, but wouldn't you do a test cut for a stacked set? No shims to worry about.

Obviously this does not relate to those that already own a stack set, or to those that may do an occasional dado or for whom time is not as important. But as a first time dado purchaser, it was an easy choice for me.

Doesn't add anything to the original discussion, but for those that may read this thread, it seems to be a relevant thought.