The new bronze age for handsaws...

[Alan DuBoff]

Well, new for me anyway...:p

I don't know if anyone has made any saws with bronze hardware recently, I know that I have never seen any. I have read in Erv and Don's saw books that the Egyptians made saws out of bronze, but it wasn't clear if that was the blade or what. This could be the first modern slotted bronze back, I'm not sure. I am one of these guys that is always curious to try something different, something that has not been done, something unique. This is one of those projects, and I got smitten by bronze at a friend's house when I first started to work it.

This back took a LOT of work, since you can't buy stock this small of size easily, so it requires milling down to get it this thin. The back is about 3/16" thick, and about 1/2" wide. It is narrow, but the bronze is quite a bit stronger than brass, and I was using a 3/4" wide piece of bronze previously on a similar joiner saw. The back is remarkably straight, and strong. I am sold on bronze as being a better material, although the cost puts a whoopin' on your wallet...it is beautiful when light reflects off it with it's pink hue...to me it's gorgeous.

This is about 13" long, with 1 3/4" of depth. It is filed 14 points, with about a 4 degree rake, and it is filed rip. I didn't add any fleam to this...yet, that might change, a touch might be a good thing.

I had very little metalworking experience before starting to make handsaws, it has been a great learning experience, and I'm finally getting some tools of my own...I have a long way to go to perfect my metalworking skills, but I try not to let my lack of skills prevent me from creating some tools. ;)

I really like using my own tools that I've made.:cool:

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Alan

Beautiful work, I haven't seen (or heard) of a bronze backed saw, so it maybe a first.! I did once make a carving mallet out of some bronze bar stock that was intended for bearings. Very smooth to machine.

Is bronze heavier (denser) than brass?

You might be (possibly one of three of us in the world ;) ) interested in an idea I am experimenting with for filing progressive rake.

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=21

Congratulations on a beautiful saw, I like the proportions. :cool:

Regards
Ray

[Alan DuBoff]

Ray,

I think bronze is heavier than brass, but I would use larger brass stock for this length saw. It works great with bronze.:)

I do progressive rake as I do soften it at the toe, but not very fond of too many contraptions, I prefer to keep my eyes on the teeth, where my file is cutting, so if I can't do that and keep an angle it distracts me. Maybe I have ADD. *lol*

I would like to do progressive teeth, but I'm lazy...:rolleyes: I have shaped teeth by hand, and can do an ok job if I take my time, but I don't like doing it. Maybe when I have more time, but I'd probably rather make more saws.

Thanks for the kind words.

Can you guess which maker's saw this was patterned off, proportionally? Was a production saw, well, in a catalog anyway...;)

I'll leave you with that Q, I need to catch some winks...

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

You might be (possibly one of three of us in the world ;) ) interested in an idea I am experimenting with for filing progressive rake.

Progressive rake is a really neat idea. But I can't figure out what you're trying to achieve by it. Care to enlighten me?

As for the bronze handsaw, I've never seen heard of someone doing that either; the Egyptian designs were bronze bodied and pull saws, if memory serves. Bronze is a good tool metal, but steel is better in most ways--which is not to say that I wouldn't love playing with some bronze tools just for the heck of it.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

...but the bronze is quite a bit stronger than brass...
Nice saw Alan...

btw, I've forgotten which bronze alloy you are using. Which was it?

Thanks, Mike

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Graham,

Progessive rake is one means of lessening the cutting ability at the toe (typically) to allow "softer" starting or sawing when the toe is in the cut.

Same principle as a greater number of ppi at the toe as seen on some/many larger hand saws.

fwiw, the bronze hand saws made in Egypt and Rome are the blades. Usable (obviously) but also abandon once steel came onto the scene. The blades are pull-tooth style, though there is evidence of Roman push saws in bronze.

Take care, Mike

[Stephen Shepherd]

fwiw, the bronze hand saws made in Egypt and Rome are the blades. Usable (obviously) but also abandon once steel came onto the scene. The blades are pull-tooth style, though there is evidence of Roman push saws in bronze.

Take care, Mike

Mike,

I think you mean iron, steel is a bit later.

Stephen<G>

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Yep, yep yep...

Tis what I get when the brain hasn't received enough coffee as of yet. Thanks Mr. S!

Mike

[Tim Thomas]

Nice looking saw Alan. Making your own tools is certainly taking your woodworking to another level. I think I'm going to have to stick to store bought until my skills come up a bit. If I can't saw a straight line, I'm pretty sure I can't make a straight saw blade. :)

By the way, the Egyptians also had saw blades made of copper for cutting wood. Can you imagine how often they had to be sharpened? Thank goodness for steel. The following link has more information about copper saws being used for cutting stone, but the paragraph at the top has some details about copper saws used for carpentry work.

http://www.geocities.com/unforbidden_geology/ancient_egyptian_copper_slabbing_saws.html

[David Keller NC]

Yeah, but there's substantial evidence that the Egyptians (and the Romans) prefered softwoods for building and making utilitarian objects. I can see why - don't really think you'd get anywhere trying to saw rosewood with a bronze blade.

(To All): BTW - if you have a need for bronze for some tool-making purpose, be aware that the true meaning of bronze vs. brass gets confused on some metal vendor's sites. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Brass always contains copper, and will usually contain at least zinc, but also possibly lead, nickel, cadmium, selenium, chromium and/or tin. I've run into an alloy that meets the definition of brass being sold as bronze, and vice versa.

[Stephen Shepherd]

I am not sure how the Egyptians made their ebony veneer, perhaps a saw. If you work hardwoods when they are green they work like dry softwoods. Not sure about the exotics but I think they are easier to work when green.

Stephen

[Ray Gardiner]

Ray,
Can you guess which maker's saw this was patterned off, proportionally? Was a production saw, well, in a catalog anyway...;)


Hmm... the proportions remind me of a Taylor Sash Tenon I have, but no I can't guess...


Regards
Ray

[Alan DuBoff]

Nice looking saw Alan. Making your own tools is certainly taking your woodworking to another level. I think I'm going to have to stick to store bought until my skills come up a bit. If I can saw a straight line, I'm pretty sure I can't make a straight saw blade. :)
Tim,

Don't let it scare you, it's not as hard as you might think. Even if you just make a handle, that's what I did first. Buy a crown gents saw and cut the handle off, that takes care of much of the hard work for you. It's still work to create the handle, but that's where most of the crafting is.

By the way, the Egyptians also had saw blades made of copper for cutting wood. Can you imagine how often they had to be sharpened? Thank goodness for steel. The following link has more information about copper saws being used for cutting stone, but the paragraph at the top has some details about copper saws used for carpentry work.

http://www.geocities.com/unforbidden_geology/ancient_egyptian_copper_slabbing_saws.html
Great info! The Egyptians were one of the most fascinating cultures in their day, I see them akin to Silicon Valley, in the sense of being progressive, open minded, and trying to do things that haven't been done before. I suspect that most of the surrounding communities looked at the Egyptians with fear, similar to how many of the Bible Belt folks fear the liberals out west. The Egyptians were operating on people, building things that hadn't been built before, even trying to preserve bodies, I'm sure that the surrounding communities feared them greatly.

BTW, bronze is mostly copper, and it ranges anywhere from about 80-97 percent depending on the particular alloy being used. Some bronze is used for bearings on aircraft wheels, so it's durable. But that stuff is pretty difficult to work. It is also used heavily in the marine industry, due to it's ability to withstand the harsh elements of salt water.

I like that bow saw pictured at that site, says it used coiled bronze wire.

Mike, you may have been mistaken, but I believe the Egyptians were smart enough to make their own steel...my $0.02.

To make steel you only need to separate the impurities and carbon from the iron, Bessemer's method incorporated a large crucible type container that they would blow air into. Bessemer was also the person who created the lead pencil, interestingly enough. However, I would not put it past the Egyptians in their day to experiment with getting the carbon and impurities out of the iron themselves. They were one of the most progressive cultures, ever.

Ray,

Nope, not even close. It was an American saw, actually, and I figure most folks would not guess that I would make one like it...How about a couple pics...I'm certain Mike will be able to tell what saw this is, can you tell with pics, Ray? I figured with your studies, you'd figured it out without pics. This original design was a poor one, the proportions and size made it an unstable saw. I bought it for $6 on ebay, the seller didn't know what it was, and the name is very faint, if at all. These saws were notorious for loosing their etch. This was a very uncommon size and few folks would pay the $$$s for the length. Although I made mine about an inch longer, the bronze back seems stable to me, much more so than this one.

[Ray Gardiner]

Tim,

Ray,

Nope, not even close. It was an American saw, actually, and I figure most folks would not guess that I would make one like it...How about a couple pics...I'm certain Mike will be able to tell what saw this is, can you tell with pics, Ray? I figured with your studies, you'd figured it out without pics. This original design was a poor one, the proportions and size made it an unstable saw. I bought it for $6 on ebay, the seller didn't know what it was, and the name is very faint, if at all. These saws were notorious for loosing their etch. This was a very uncommon size and few folks would pay the $$$s for the length. Although I made mine about an inch longer, the bronze back seems stable to me, much more so than this one.

Yep, the 12" length makes all the difference. Is this closer?

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/albums/userpics/Disston70.jpg

Nice choice.

Regards
Ray

[Alan DuBoff]

Ray,

I figure the pics would help! ;)

I have another No 70 that was hardly used, but it's only 8" which is the most common size. I do have quite a few 68s, and one 71, but don't have any No 69s (metal cutting gent's saw).

I keep my eye out for them, but they are pretty rare, and I don't chase too many saws these days. Since the name does wear off easily, it's not uncommon for folks to think they have some clunker :D, as they don't have the same fit/finish as the other Disston saws.

None the less, it's an interesting profile, and one I've always wanted to create myself.

The hang/weight/balance feels nicer than the previous saw I made with the London Pattern style handle. This is what I was looking for with the previous design, feel wise. The other one feels and cuts fine, but this one is a touch lighter, better balanced, and just feels good. The size of the back makes quite a difference.

BTW, mine is 15 points, like my 8" No 70, as I recall.

[philip marcou]

Alan,
Nice work .... Can you let us see a close up pic of the teeth?
What type of bronze are you using? I am thinking that you may be better off next time using hard brass-which looks not much different to bronze, is cheaper and certainly stiff enough. I mean the extruded stuff-so you also may not have to mill it for thickness .
I noticed the small screw driver/nut driver-did you give birth to that too? :)
Be careful-just now you might find that making tools is more fun than making saw dust.

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan,
Nice work .... Can you let us see a close up pic of the teeth?This is about the best shot I can get...Looks like I can probably go over them better, but it cuts pretty good. Out of 18 or so pics, this is one of the only decent ones...all the ones holding it up and blurry, this is standing on the bend and a stool. I might be able to get a better shot in the sunlight, but that's usually when I'm sleeping...;) Anyway, this hasn't really been tuned up, I didn't finish it until late on Sunday evening and have only really assembled it. I'll probably play with it this weekend, I have some work related stuff this week...(unfortunately this isn't work for me...:().

Yeah, I can get brass, that's not a problem, it's the bronze I want as it is by far a much better material, and I don't think brass would be strong enough in this size. I'll see how well it holds up, the Disston is too thin for the length, IMO.

EDIT: this pic might be better.

[Alan DuBoff]

What type of bronze are you using?
Philip,

Sorry, I missed this...under the gun for some work I'm involved in, and replied quickly last night...or this morning earlier, however you look at it...

All of the bronze I use is bearing bronze. I guess the flat bar is made for flat bearings...*lol*

But it is bearing bronze.:D

[Alan DuBoff]

Nice work .... Can you let us see a close up pic of the teeth?
Funny thing about that pic I posted of the teeth, there's a small black dot on the side of every other tooth, I sometimes do that when I file teeth, getting old and all it's easy to loose track of the tooth your filing.

I cleaned the teeth with denatured alcohol and got a better shot.

Better is mo' bronze...alongside of the teeth...:)

These are not split yet, so I guess they are split-less-nuts at the moment...hopefully will get some splits and 5/8" diam. cousins soon...

[Alan DuBoff]

And she would know after being with me for 22 years...:)

Was a pretty productive weekend, made the 4 nuts on the left on my friend's Hardinge clone, and then was able to put it all together and get some bronze spun on my South Bend 9A, the 2 on the right. This helps me out being able to do it on my own equipment. The nut on the far right is 5/8" in diameter, I've been using all 1/2" diameter nuts up until now. I want to spin a 3/4" also.

I still have to slot the washers and square the top part of the bolt shaft where it secure itself from spinning in the wood.

Will do that next weekend, or one night during the week.

[Derek Cohen]

Beautiful saw, Alan. My complients.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alan DuBoff]

Beautiful saw, Alan. My complients.
Thanks, this one was a lot of fun to make. And now that I almost have some more split-nuts, I can test myself again.

This saw feels good, the hang, the balance...just turned into a very nice design.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Is bronze heavier (denser) than brass?



Bronze is copper and tin (plus other metals depending on alloy)
Brass is copper and zink (plus other metals depending on alloy)
Brass comes in different hardness: Hard, half hard, and soft. The hardness is a factor of the particular alloy not heat treatment.

Bronze makes better bells.

[Alan DuBoff]

Bronze is copper and tin (plus other metals depending on alloy)
Brass is copper and zink (plus other metals depending on alloy)
Brass comes in different hardness: Hard, half hard, and soft. The hardness is a factor of the particular alloy not heat treatment.

Bronze makes better bells.
This is one of the big reasons I'm attracted to bronze over brass, the high zinc content of brass presents problems in non-ideal conditions. The tin seems to make bronze much more durable.

Very high copper content in bronze, like 85%-95$ depending on the alloy being used.

I made a simple fixture to slot the washers for the split-nuts, I just turned a bolt that I slotted the head on which I could tighten up a washer on a 1-2-3 block, and secure that in a vise to slot on my Nichols. Worked just fine. Here you can see I made a new larger/improved model split-nut that is 3/4" on the bolt, with a 1/2" washer.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Alan,

Beautiful saw! I have to agree with you, I love using tools I've made myself. There is a certain satisfaction in it (like catching a fish on a fly rod I built or fly I tied myself). Where do you get your brass/bronze from? I've had a plan to make a longer tenon saw for some time since I'm too cheap to buy one but I haven't been able to locate a reasonable piece of brass to use. McMaster has formable brass but the cheapest piece I can get is $85 and it's way more than I would need for 1 or 2 saws. I come up short finding a piece of brass in a size suitable for 1 or 2 saws.

Also, are your backs milled or folded? If folded, how are you folding them and managing to keep them straight?

Bob

[Alan DuBoff]

Beautiful saw! I have to agree with you, I love using tools I've made myself. There is a certain satisfaction in it (like catching a fish on a fly rod I built or fly I tied myself).
Yeah, tis a great feeling ain't it? :)

Where do you get your brass/bronze from?
Varies, depending on where I'm ordering from...but McMaster-Carr, Enco, MSC, or even Online Metal have been places I've ordered some from. I try to get it from Enco as they have free shipping on orders over $50, and most any piece of bronze will set you back at least that much! :rolleyes: (aside from the 12" sections of round bar which I have used for the split-nuts, you can see a small section of it in the last pic I posted.)

I've had a plan to make a longer tenon saw for some time since I'm too cheap to buy one but I haven't been able to locate a reasonable piece of brass to use. McMaster has formable brass but the cheapest piece I can get is $85 and it's way more than I would need for 1 or 2 saws. I come up short finding a piece of brass in a size suitable for 1 or 2 saws.Well, the bronze will be more difficult to find, but McMaster-Carr carries small sizes of brass, not sure what you were looking for. What about this link.

Maybe you can find the size you need at a local SIMS (recycled metal). Some of the brass I have came from SIMS, they charge about $4/lb, as I recall.

Also, are your backs milled or folded? If folded, how are you folding them and managing to keep them straight?
Mine are milled, I use a Nichols horizontal mill from the 40s to slot it. You can slot on a vertical mill also, I have done it on a mini-mill. Works ok if your patient and can tolerate working with one.

For folding, you would be best if you had a brake to bend it, but short of that you can anneal the brass, and work it softly by holding it in a vise. I prefer the slotting. You will need to use different brass for slotting than you do for folding. For folding you will want Alloy 260, but for milling you will want Alloy 360. Make certain you get the right material.

I don't know of any bronze that can be folded, but haven't looked into it too much. I use all bearing bronze for the split-nuts and backs.

If your folding you will want to get something at least 1" - 1 1/2" wide, and 1/8" thick. If you have a forge you can heat it to 1300 degrees, quench in water to anneal, and as you work it, it will get hardened. Most don't anneal, but use a brake to bend it. See this link (http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/node/69) on Leif Hanson's site.

Here's a piece of 3/16" thick brass alloy 360, 36" long, and 3/4" wide. This would be enough to slot 2 large tenon saws for $25, look up item 8954K804 at McMaster-Carr.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Thanks! I was looking at the alloy 260 as I would prefer a folded back, not to mention I wouldn't have any way to mill a back even if I wanted a milled back. I'm not much of a metal worker and really don't prefer doing it. I was figuring on 1/8" thick 260 but I think the smallest piece from McMaster was around 12x12 which wouldn't be long enough for a longer back and the next size up I believe is 12x24 which is running $85 and is enough for me to do 8 saws or more. I can't see spending $85 to do 1 or 2 saws and have so much brass left over. Hence I'm still looking for a smaller piece of 260. Thanks!

[Alan DuBoff]

Bob,

The other thing is that you might find that you don't like making saws, so if you invest in a large QTY of material, you might be left with it.

I've thought about selling kits, most of the saw makers charge a lot of $$$s for the kits. The one problem for me is the split-nuts. There is no way I could make split-nuts for people at an affordable price. Currently, folks couldn't afford to buy split-nuts from me, they just take too much time to make. Tools for Working Wood sells them for $6/each I think, not cheap, but cheaper than I would charge! ;) They sell a pair of split-nuts for $11.95, the dovetail kits cost $70 and the carcass saw kits cost $100. Mike Wenzloff charges slightly more for similar saw kits.

The thing that kits get you is a blade that has the teeth stamped on them. That is worth something, IMO, if you have ever tried to shape saw teeth by hand (i.e., you don't have a Foley retoother or similar) you will know that it takes patience.

The other thing to consider is to get this Alloy 360 and laminate it with epoxy on each side of the blade. This has been done by quite a few folks successfully, Vlad Spehar, Tim Hoffman, others...that could be worth considering, will still give you a decent saw, and eliminate much of the grunt work in making the back. You can pin it through the blade also if you like. If you pin it you might have a hard time removing the back from the blade though, if at some point a new blade was needed. But I wouldn't worry about such, and just use the saw.

You can also make your own split-nuts out of round rod brass and brass threaded rod, without too much difficulty. That might start making the $6 split-nuts look attractive at Tools For Working Wood though...:rolleyes:

It all depends on what you want to do yourself, once the saw is made you could use it for years.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Thanks again Alan! I'm not concerned with retoothing the blade. I've done that plenty of times on old beaters just using a file and some patience. Handle isn't a problem either, again, been there, done that. The main thing keeping me from it is the brass back. I guess I'm just too much of a traditionalist and I know I would never be happy with the milled or laminated back in the long run, no matter how good it performed. What I'm really hoping to do is to make something more traditional like Mike's Kenyon saws. I've read Lief's description of folding the brass and think I could easily manage using the brake to fold the brass, but then there's the expense of all the angle iron and steel to make a break. Any way you slice it, it ain't going to be cheap to build one or two saws :D. Might just make more sense to wait and buy the real thing.

[Alan DuBoff]

Any way you slice it, it ain't going to be cheap to build one or two saws :D. Might just make more sense to wait and buy the real thing.
Yeah, it does kinda get down to that...one needs to do it for love...:D

I think a laminated back could work out just fine.

I am not crazy about folding the backs. Have tried it and wasn't patient enough, and don't have a brake. That's how I ended up with my mini-mill, which in turn drove me to the Nichols...the South Bend lathe, etc...metalworking is an art of it's own.

Slotting is much cleaner, IMO, although it doesn't have the same spring tension on the back, the solid piece is more rigid to me. It requires some tooling though...

Saws do require specific tools to make, just like anything else.

[Philip McKinney]

Just as a side note here are a couple of newer bronze saws (blades). The salt saw from the late 19th century with an obvious use. The other(modern) saw is from the folks at Ampco who make a full line on non sparking tools.

[Alan DuBoff]

Philip,

Those saws are interesting, hard to tell what type of bronze alloy is used on those, but they look cool.

I like the modern saw, have thought about a similar style saw that had a back on it.