Impossible question about Hock Blades

[Ron Kanter]

I know there is no absolute answer to this question but I'll ask anyway:D

How much better is a well tuned Stanley plane going to shave with a Hock replacement blade.

I have a number 3 and a 5 that work well on straight-grained hardwoods. When I was working some gnarly white oak I started to get a lot of tearout.

Would a Hock be a noticeable improvement. The blade would cost almost as much as the plane.:eek:

Fire away. I can take it.
Ron

[Zachary Bulacan]

I am new to this but my understanding is on highly figured woods its tha blade angle that has alot to do with tearout you may need to hone a different angle on your blade since you cannot adjust the bed angle(?) hopefull a better qualified neander will come and help thats my 0.02 worth

[Pedro Reyes]

Well we know the answer is not objective, or really measurable I should say. So here's my best shot.

I've found it to be worth it.

A wiser man and much better woodworker once told me aftermarket blades are not worth it, (he really said are not at all needed) but then again he is partial to clifton planes which come with very nice irons as it is. And I would agree they are not essential.

I think that if I could only afford one of two things, one being a Hock blade and the other a Hock (or Lie Nielsen's are superb) chip breaker, I would go with the chip breaker, but that is just me. To me getting a blade sharp is easier than fettling with a chip breaker which may not mate properly, and the aftermarket chip breaker seems to reduce chatter well.

/p

[steve swantee]

Hello Ron, I do not have any Hock plane irons, but I do have a .125 (1/8") Lie-Nielsen iron and new improved chipbreaker in my Stanley No4. I found the Stanley iron okay in nice straight grained softwood and some hardwoods, but when it came to gnarly grained hardwoods the stock iron tended to flex under the pressure, causing chatter. I also backbeveled the iron to raise the cutting angle to help with tearout, but it really didn't help as the flexing iron basically cancelled out any improvement from the higher angle. After the addition of the L-N iron & chipbreaker it is a completely different tool, and with the addition of the backbevel, there has been nothing that I have not been able to plane with it, and none of my other planes can touch it. So for me, a premium plane iron is definitely worth the money, but I know there are some who would disagree.
97261
Steve

[Horst Hohoff]

For all I know, a Hock blade can very well be an improvement, but in your case the crucial point is the cutting angle. It needs to be higher than the standard angle. You can raise the cutting angle on your existing blade by honing a back bevel of 5 or 10°.The other alternative is the use of a scraper(plane).

Horst

[Michael Faurot]

I have a number 3 and a 5 that work well on straight-grained hardwoods. When I was working some gnarly white oak I started to get a lot of tearout.

Would a Hock be a noticeable improvement. The blade would cost almost as much as the plane.:eek:


As others have stated, tear-out has more to do with the angle of the blade than the thickness. Thickness of the blade comes more into play for reducing chatter.

I do like Hock blades, but if you're concerned about cost you might want to see about just getting an extra blade from Stanley (http://www.stanleytoolparts.com/beplcu.html) for your #3 and/or your #5 and then do some experimenting with back bevels to give you a higher cutting angle.

[Brian Kent]

Another amazing solution is a rosewood Mujingfang Polish Plane with a 63° blade angle, for $55, a little more than an after market blade:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E107%2E2155&dept_id=13602

or any of their variations of size with the high angle blade.

This is the plane that came in close to the top in a review on High Angle smoothers costing many times more.

[Joel Goodman]

I would go with the thickest replacement that will fit. The Hock, LV and "Stanley replacement" LN are 3/32. LN also has their regular 1/8 thick and TWW has one almost 1/8" by AI. If the thicker blade will fit in your plane go for it. It will close the mouth without advancing the frog and is stiffer -- in fact with a 1/8 blade you may not feel the need for the new chipbreaker. But be aware that not all Baileys will take a 1/8 blade without filing the mouth. Test fit before you buy unless you are willing to file.

[Johnny Kleso]

A thicker blade will help with tear out as it will help close the planes mouth..

A sharp blade is most important, also try skewing your cut as it makes the plane cut like it has a higher bedding angle..

If your blade is in first class shape I would get a new CB instead...

[David Keller NC]

Ron - My take is that a replacement iron isn't going to help the tearout problem at all. It might help with chatter, which is an entirely different phenomenon. What a Hock blade will do for you is considerably reduce the amount of sharpening that you have to do, and possibly reduce chatter problems.

For the problem at hand (tearing on white oak), I assume you've a place in your boards where the grain reverses direction. Assuming the majority of the board is being planed in the correct direction, you can solve the immediate problem at hand with a scraper or (if you have one) a scraper plane. One other thought is to wet the area that's tearing out with denatured alcohol and take very thin shavings. That typically, but not always, works.

And, of course, we're assuming you've a properly fettled plane where the sole is flat within a couple of thousandths around the mouth, toe and heel, and that the mouth has been closed up to 5-10 thousandths. If that's not the case, reading up on and fettling the plane that you have would be the first place to start before replacing the blade.

[Ron Kanter]

WOW, some great information. Thank you one and all.
I didn't understand the importance of blade angle versus stiffness.
My blade is sharp and the plane is well fettled or at least to the best of my ability.
I will try the back bevel approach and spend more time with a card scraper. I don't have a scraper plane.
I'll look into that as the next step on the slope or maybe one of the Mujingfang Polish Planes suggested by Brian.
Thanks again for all the thoughtful replies.

I guess it wasn't such an impossible question after all.
Ron

[John Dykes]

hmmm - Where is Marcus?!

- jbd in Denver

[Pedder Petersen]

also try skewing your cut as it makes the plane cut like it has a higher bedding angle..


Hi Johnny,

I was told the cutting angel lowers by skewing. Think of serpentines....IIRC that's why Christopher Schwarz teaches to stop skewing in his No. 7 Way to reduce tearou (http://blog.lostartpress.com/2008/01/06/Skewing+The+No+7+Way+To+Reduce+Tearout.aspx)t

Skewing makes it easier to push the plane though.

Cheers
Pedder

[Douglas Brummett]

Some fairly good discussion already. I will give some feedback. I have ran the Hock iron and chip breaker in my Groz #4 smoother.

Right out the gate the chatter I was having was removed. I was able to drop shaving thickness by about .001" (from about .004-.003in) without even tightening the mouth. Honestly I think that the setup is a very nice upgrade.

That said, my Hock iron and Breaker are currently in a drawer and not in use. After seeing the improvement in my plane my curiosity got the best of me, so I tightened the mouth, tuned the chip breaker, and sharpened the stock iron. From there in the stock Groz has been performing admirably. So yes, Hock will do the trick. But you may also be able to get good results with some care on your current iron and chip breaker. I recommend giving your stock blade and breaker a careful sharpening. Tune up the plane and see where you are at. At that time if you are not totally satisfied then maybe it is time to try a Hock setup ;)

[Ken Werner]

With all due respect to Mr. Kleso, everything I've read agrees with Pedder.

[Jim Nardi]

Hi Ron,

If you can really sharpen your plane blades it won't make any difference at all. Stanley Sweet heart blades are just as good as Hock IMO.

[Johnny Kleso]

Hi Johnny,

I was told the cutting angel lowers by skewing. Think of serpentines....IIRC that's why Christopher Schwarz teaches to stop skewing in his No. 7 Way to reduce tearou (http://blog.lostartpress.com/2008/01/06/Skewing+The+No+7+Way+To+Reduce+Tearout.aspx)t

Skewing makes it easier to push the plane though.

Cheers
Pedder

I stand corrected on skewing :)

And for chip breakers if you have a good one you can stiffen the blade by tighting the lever cap screw :)

[Derek Cohen]

A thicker aftermarket blade, whether Hock, LN or LV, will do two things ..

1. The thicker, stiffer steel absorbs some of the vibration and reduces chatter.

You could probably get the same effect from a thicker aftermarket cap iron. Better still, do both.

2. The A2 steel is more durable and will hold an edge longer.

Overall, do not expect a new blade/cap iron to transform a plane. It will perform slightly better. Where is really scores is that it can hold this performance for longer than the standard set up.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Raney Nelson]

Regarding skewing - it does lower the effective pitch, making the iron easier to push, but IME it does not equate to the same tearout problems you would have with the lower pitch. i.e, pushing a 45-deg smoother at a skew angle creates an effective cutting angle of, say, 37 degrees with respect to the force required, but it will not lead to the same degree of tearout problems you would have with a 37 degree blade pushed un-skewed. In fact, it has the opposite effect, generally reducing tearout , if you pay attention to the way the wood grain wants to be planed. It's almost like planing partially cross-grain, which is less likely to lift the fibers than to slice them.