Chisel Purchase??? Need Help

[richard poitras]

Here are two chisel sets that were just rated in Fine Wood Working Magazine as being a decent set and also a best value, do any of you folks have these and what are your thoughts?
Ratings as posted in Fine Wood Working Magazine.

Grizzly / Japanese chisels ~~~~~~~~~~~~~Narex/ Highland Woodworking
Edge… …………Very Good ……………………Good
Dovetail work… .Very Good ……………………Very Good
Paring …………..Fair ……………………………Very Good
Chopping……….Very Good ……………………. Excellent



http://www.grizzly.com/images/pics/jpeg288/g/g7102.jpg (http://www.grizzly.com/products/G7102/images/)
Grizzly Japenese chisels $139.00 for a set of 10/#G7102 ..edge Rockwell 63

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/ProductImages/chisels/146012.jpg

Narex Boxed 6-Piece Bench Chisel Set from Highland Woodworking for $49.00 / #146012

[Mike Henderson]

I have the Grizzly set. Works okay. The edge will chip if you're not careful.

One thing to consider is how the handle fits your hand - and I doubt if you're going to be able to hold either before you make a decision.

I'd recommend the Narex set just because it's less expensive. If you decide you don't like it you can use them as knock-around chisels and you haven't lost much.

Mike

[richard poitras]

Mike,Thanks for your insight.. You state that the edges could chip if you’re not careful is that because they are laminated steel blades?

[Bill Moser]

Richard - A lot depends on your budget, and what you plan to do with these chisels. Note that the equipment to sharpen these chisels will cost more than the chisels themselves. And this equipment is essential. If you're in the <$100 price range, I would go with the narex chisels, they can take more abuse. But you need a sharpening kit, without that, there's no point in buying the chisels.

[richard poitras]

Bill, I do have a work sharp 3000, so sharpening is not a problem and I know it sounds like when you’re looking at a set of $49.00 chisels you are on a very tight budget, but I am flexible on price, but just want a decent set and not have to buy again, but also not to break the bank! I know there are some very good sets out there for big money, As far as what I plan to do with these chisels? general uses and some mortising and since I haven’t done any mortising with chisels I’m not sure if I need two sets of chisels one for general stuff and one for mortising never used a mortising chisel before in a mortis that’s way I am looking for a pretty good set of general chisels or are the mortising chisel really needed for mortising? Are they that much better for that function? Do I really need a set of mortising chisels to do mortising buy hand?

[Bill Moser]

Richard - in general, with Japanese chisels being harder (rc62-65) you have to be careful of edge chipping, as Mike mentioned. My first set of chisels was a marples blue chip set, about the same as the narex, I'd guess. I also own far more expensive chisels, but the marples work fine. Ian Kirby uses them, and he, as they say, has forgotten more about woodworking than I will ever know. That said, I would buy the best set that you can afford, if you plan to use them often. A multi-hollow set of Japanese chisels will run upwards of $1000 these days, pretty expensive. A set of LN's is about half that, and can take far more abuse, but that still ain't cheap.

If you're going to do mortising also, I would either get a set of mortise chisels, or use the drill-out mortising technique, where a drill is used to bore out a sequence of holes along the mortise, and chisels are used to clean up (a time-honored timberframing technique).

[Mike Henderson]

Mike,Thanks for your insight.. You state that the edges could chip if you’re not careful is that because they are laminated steel blades?
Yes. Bill Moser explained the reason for it pretty well. The laminated edge is harder and will chip if you use the chisel certain ways.

I don't like the handles on Japanese chisels - primarily because the hoop on the end of the handle, and the beat up end, is uncomfortable in my hand. I want to re-handle the Japanese chisels I have and see if that improves them for my use.

I'll also mention that you can purchase good used chisels on eBay. There are many good brands but I'll mention Witherby, which seems to come up often on eBay and to be priced reasonably. I was able to put together a full set from 1/8" to 1" quickly (I just don't use chisels bigger than 1" and have some in another set). Don't remember the full cost, but I'll guess it was in the range of $100.

Mike

[Joel Goodman]

Another idea is to get one or two chisels (of the size that you commonly use) in a better chisel to "enhance" a cheap set -- or even in place of one.

[JD Dolan]

You can get a set of 6 MHG chisels from Hartville Tool for $89, with free shipping.

http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/11737

I got a set on sale and like them a lot (and they fared better than the Narex in the FW review you mentioned).

You could also start out with LN chisels purchased individually, and build your set over time. And if you didn't like them, you could always sell them on eBay for very near what you paid for them.

J.D.

[Mike Duffy]

I have the Narex and like them alot.
You can get a set of 8 for $79 at lee valley and I think they still have free shipping.
Mike

[Scott Mark]

I'm probably the most inexperienced of anyone that is going to reply to this thread so take this with a grain of salt. I built up a set of socket chisels and went back and picked out the best ( according to me of course ) from one of 3-5 of each size that I had acquired. The most I paid was $16 ($24 w/ shipping) for one chisel. Overall, my average was under $7/chisel after finding a couple auctions with multiple chisels in them where there were just one or two other bidders. If I was really lucky there weren't any others. Understand that I sit at a computer all day and could cherry pick the auctions. If I was to calculate how much I get paid with how many hours I spent on ebay I probably could have justified a set of LNs. But, it would not have been as much fun. My wife got really suspicious when I started getting 2-3 packages/week till I showed her the prices.

I very much prefer socket chisels as making new handles for them isn't rocket science and you can beat the snot out of them. Not that I actually abuse them, but it's nice to know the possibility is there.

I did get to work with a friend's LN and (please no flaming) didn't walk away in awe. It could be that my skills are not at the level that I can truely appreciate the difference in such tools.

The ones that I couldn't get off ebay for a significantly better price were mortise chisels in tang or socket form. This is where I might actually splurge for the LN or pick up one or two Ray Illes' English chisels. I'm a huge fan of the pig-stickers and most of those go for just over $30 on the every low end, unless you can find them without handles. I still don't know or quite understand how the handles for those work or hold up like they do. I don't know anyone who can show me how to make handles for them either so I'm stuck in that department.

My last point is that I could use all the extra chisels to practice sharpening. Call me old fashioned but I'm learning how to do it free hand. I guess it's, again, a personal preference. For anyone who wants to learn the free handed method my suggestion is to start with plane irons first. The wider the better, unless it fits a #8. Then you're really throwing money down the grinder. Then move to chisels as holding them can be tricky.

Hope some of this helps!

CSM

[Mark Singer]

I think the Grizzly chisels are a very good deal. I have a few along with some very fine Japanese chisels. The Grizzleys are not as good, but they are quite good and hold an edge really well. I like the proportions and grip, although that is personal . I have some other fine newer and older US made chisels, some quite expensive , and often perfer the Japanese chisels, even the Grizzley ones.

[JD Dolan]

You might want to check out this post:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92994

[Derek Cohen]

Here are two chisel sets that were just rated in Fine Wood Working Magazine as being a decent set and also a best value, do any of you folks have these and what are your thoughts?

Hi Richard

Before you jump in and make a decision to buy a set of chisels based on a Best Buy recommendation in a magazine, you need to do a little research about chisel types, their uses, and the pros and cons of diffrent types. Do a search on articles by Bob Smalser, as he has written about this very subject.

The problem you face in the future, if you buy the Grizzly chisels, is that you will hate them as parers. They are not designed to be pushed. The Narex look to be the more comfortable in the hand. Neither are suitable for morticing. Neither are high quality chisels and your aim, "just want a decent set and not have to buy again" is unlikely to be achieved here with either of these choices. They are good cheap chisels. There are many chisel makes with better quality in the finish of the steel, edge holding or ease of sharpening, balance, comfort, and even looks.

I am not saying that you should not buy either of these chisel sets, or that expensive chisels are the way to go. It is just that your replies make it clear to me that you want a decent set of chisels and that you do not know what to look for in this area.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Keller NC]

Richard - Just my $0.02, so take it that way. I'm not an expert at anything except possibly chemical engineering, but do use hand tools extensively for almost everything I do in the woodshop.

First - Choose what you want in a form factor. As Derek mentioned, a paring chisel does not equal a mortising chisel. They are designed for completely different tasks and neither will work well for the other purpose. A good many of us that use hand tools a lot have 3 or 4 sets, each designed to do something different. If you've no chisels, a good set of "butt chisels" or "firmer chisels" might be a good place to start. These will handle all-around joint fitting tasks and general use very well, and are tough enough to be struck with a mallet (please don't use a steel hammer!) and not break. Next on the list would be mortise chisels if you don't have or plan to buy a hollow chisel mortiser.

Second - There's a lot of variation between sets within a brand, much less between brands in the ability of the chisel to take mallet strikes without chipping or rolling the edge. I've found this to be particularly true with Sorbys, but I've little doubt that'd be the case with a lot of the lower-priced and less QC'ed brands. I'm not telling you this to discourage you - quite the contrary - I say this so that if you choose, you can avoid obsessing over magazine reviews and net forums and just pick one.

Third - How you prep a chisel and hone the edge will have a great deal of influence over your satisfaction with the tool, perhaps greatly exceeding the brand or form factor of the handle. It's worth buying David Charlesworth's DVD on preparing chisels, or finding someone that has a bit of experience and buy him a six-pack to stand over his shoulder while he shows you how to flatten the back and hone the bevel.

Finally - I've several sets, some quite pricey, some not so much. My lowest priced ones are a set of Buck plastic handled butt chisels I bought 10 years ago from Home Despot. They're fairly soft, and nowhere near as nice as the set of Lie-Nielsen sockets and Blue Spruce paring chisels, but I still use them frequently, particularly when I'm hogging out waste from a joint and don't want to risk wailing away on my more expensive ones. Point here is that marples, footprints, narex, whatever, will still get you going, and the two weeks of practice you'll get by jumping in will be more valuable than the 10% extra value you might get by spending those same 2 weeks figuring out what brand to buy...

[Richard Niemiec]

Don't forget that the Lee Valley chisels got a pretty good review in the FWW article. You can get a set of 5 up to 1 inch for about $80, and somehow I think the house brand is likely better than the Narex.....

[Shannon Vincent]

In that same Fine woodworking comparison,look at the Pfeil swiss made chisels.They came in just under the LN's and they are 32 bucks each.(I just watched a set of 4 go on ebay for $45.00!!Just some more ideas for ya.

[John O'Neill]

Everyone is giving great advice. I'd give one of Derek's points closer attention though.

Derek Cohen from Perth said:
"They are good cheap chisels. There are many chisel makes with better quality in the finish of the steel, edge holding or ease of sharpening, balance, comfort, and even looks."


I'm a relatively new hand tool enthusiast so take this with a grain of salt;
For me 'looks' are extremely important and weighs heavily in my decision making process. It's like picking out a watch or even a car. I'f I'm going to be using these things every weekend, I want to enjoy the tools as well as the process of woodworking.

I own two sets of chisels so far; a set of Marples Blue Chips and an expensive set of Japanese bench chisels. both take a mirror edge and cut very well.

I had the good fortune to take a 'beginner's' restoration class with Mario Rodrigues years ago and he suggested Marples Blue Chips as a good starter set. Their utility, simplicity and quality (for their price) make them beutiful to me.

I met Harrelson Stanley at a trade show a couple of years later who placed a Japanese chisel in my hand for the first time. There is a tactile and visual appeal to handling them that's tough to explain without actually picking one up. I couldn't leave without a set. They still bring me joy every time I use one and I have them for a long time now.

So, if you have some bucks to spend, it might do you some good to go to a couple of 'showrooms' and handle a few different types of chisels. On the other hand I've never regretted buying the Marples Blue Chips. They are low risk, I've had them for a long time and I still wouldn't give mine up.

I hope that helps.

John

[Richard Niemiec]

Not for nothin', but if you have the time and inclination, hunting down some older chisels in the flea markets and garage sales can yield you some fine tools; my set of Witherbys (or for that matter Union, (older) Greenlees, (older) Buck, and anything marked Eskiltuna (Swedish makers, Berg, etc.) will give you fine service. Check out Bob Smalzer's articles on chisels. Fleabay might be an alternative, but sometimes you're buying a pig in a poke.

RN

[Jake Helmboldt]

One note on Marples; they are now being made in China and the steel is a generic "high carbon steel" if I recall printed on them. So I would surmise that they have potentially gone from a good starter set to possibly junk.

Buyer beware.

[Richard Niemiec]

Jake: FWIW, my buddy is a beta tester for Irwin, and specifically asked about the blue chip chisels now marketed by them, and the product guy said the steel is the same spec, so I guess its all in the execution.

RN