White oak used outside?

[tom tangie]

Wood magazine had an outdoor rocking chair on their recent cover. They put an outdoor clear finish on it to protect it from the weather.

Is white oak going to hold up well in the weather like that? Would red oak hold up also with a couple of coats of outdoor suitable finish?

Any thoughts appreciated!

thanks

[John M. Cioffi]

Tom,
White Oak is a very good wood for outside projects. It is insect resistant & quite weather-proof.
Look on pg.40 & you will see the article on red/white oak.
Post pics when you finish the chair!:)
Happy Woodworking!
John

[Brian Peters]

Its not waterproof/weatherproof but I'm sure it would last awhile under a covered porch. Exposed to constant rain? I doubt it.

[David Freed]

White oak is almost always what is used for flooring in heavy machinery trailers. Untreated, it lasts a long time under the abuse of dozers, trackhoes, etc. If it can hold up in those conditions, a piece of furniture would last forever (or close to it).

[Peter Quinn]

White oak is fairly tannic, or high in acid, which gives some moderate protection from insects. Its hard and fairly wear and impact resistant. It has a cellular structure with breaks along its long grain (Tyloses) that once dried do not re-hydrate easily and thus inhibit the flow of water back into the wood. It is not water proof, just water resistant. White oak is used in cooperage for wine and whiskey barrels both for its tannins and its ability to hold water. It is often used for sills on traditional wooden windows and door thresholds. It likes to remain either dry or wet. It has been used on docks for below the water line applications for years. It may be compromised by a continual wet dry cycle where water is trapped for extended periods then allowed to dry. Design of your outdoor furniture should allow for quick drainage and watershed, and the wood should be finished with a UV and water resistant finish.

White oak has a tendency to crack and check at the end grain, so all end grain should be thoroughly sealed. It is a reasonable choice for out door furniture among domestic species. If you search old FWW articles there was an article about using CPES (made by Smith, sold by Jamestown Distributers, it is a clear penetrating epoxy sealer, thus the name CPES) and spar varnish for a durable exterior finish to protect nearly any wood from the elements.

Red oak shares none of white oak's weather resistance, does not have the same cellular structure, and would IMO be a poor choice for out door projects unless thoroughly protected via a durable finish. It also makes a poor whiskey barrel as it doesn't hold water, so keep that in mind!:D

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It is supposed to be good out of doors.
So is Mahogany

[tom tangie]

Tom,
White Oak is a very good wood for outside projects. It is insect resistant & quite weather-proof.
Look on pg.40 & you will see the article on red/white oak.
Post pics when you finish the chair!:)
Happy Woodworking!
John

thanks for the inputs. I move forward with white oak.

Here are the red oak chairs I have made so far. 1-3 are done (#1 closest to you.). 4-6 I am beginning the final sand and finish. #3 is mahogany with is my favorite. each one is a different. After #1 I slanted the back more and made them taller. #1 is an antique repro and made for smaller folks back then I guess.

the outdoor version will be the same as #6 except for a wood seat made of slats and of course out of white oak.

thanks again!

[Bill Huber]

Great looking rockers....

I can see myself setting on one of those and watching the world go by.


Again very nice looking rockers.

[tom tangie]

It would be exposed to direct rain as it would be under patio cover made alternating slats. I would put several coats of uv resistant outdoor poly. The rockers are at most risk I would think since they could be touching water most the time. Another thing is that instead of using plastic resin glue for the bent lams I would have to use something like the TitebondIII waterproof glue. I read that it allows about 10 minutes open time and ive practiced with enough build to be able to get a lam clamped up in that time I should think. Thank you for the inputs

[David Keller NC]

A recommendation I read in one of the woodworking mags a while back might be applicable to your situation. The article stated that the best (read: most durable and weather resistant) finish typically available to a home woodworker is coating the project with epoxy, followed by a few coats of spar varnish. The epoxy seals all open pores and is relatively reistant to humidity and standing water. The varnish has a lot of UV inhibitors in it, and protects the epoxy from the sun's rays. I haven't tried it yet, but it makes sense.

By the way - Titebond III doesn't hold up well to constant wetness. I know that one from first-hand experience. I'd consider polyurethane glue or epoxy in that circumstance.

[Brian Peters]

Good point, and yes yellow glue doesn't hold up in constant moisture situations, not even the best titebond is guaranteed. Marine grade epoxy like west systems or systems three works really well.

[tom tangie]

OK. I believe that. Using a long setting epoxy for lams and the joinery would be no problem. As far as a clear coating of epoxy as a finish, Im not sure how to go about that and get a decent finish

[Gary Herrmann]

The outdoor white oak furniture I've made has held up very well over the years.

[Charlie Plesums]

Titebond III says waterproof on the container, but the specs sound more like water resistant.

I would use a polyurethane glue (personally I hate Gorilla glue, and use PL Premium Poly construction adhesive), epoxy, or plastic resin (the stuff I have used is extremely water resistant after it has cured).

[tom tangie]

Titebond III says waterproof on the container, but the specs sound more like water resistant.

I would use a polyurethane glue (personally I hate Gorilla glue, and use PL Premium Poly construction adhesive), epoxy, or plastic resin (the stuff I have used is extremely water resistant after it has cured).

I read the container for the plastic resin glue. Weldwood. It lists resistance to a lot of chemicals but water is absent from the list. It it was waterproof that would be the ideal choice..

[Charlie Plesums]

I read the container for the plastic resin glue. Weldwood. It lists resistance to a lot of chemicals but water is absent from the list. It it was waterproof that would be the ideal choice..

The spec sheet (www.dap.com/docs/tech/00030201.pdf) uses the term water resistant, but the cleaning directions point out that, after it is cured, water and other solvents will not touch it... I have always considered it a waterproof glue.

[John Thompson]

BTW... I don't think anyone mentioned about Red Oak that you ask about in the OP? Red Oak is terrible for outside as opposed to white oak. White oak's cellular structure is tylose's which restrict water from passing and red oak doesn't have that.

White oak is used in ship's timbers and I have seen it often as planking on piers and docks. That should tell you something...

Sarge..

[tom tangie]

The spec sheet (www.dap.com/docs/tech/00030201.pdf (http://www.dap.com/docs/tech/00030201.pdf)) uses the term water resistant, but the cleaning directions point out that, after it is cured, water and other solvents will not touch it... I have always considered it a waterproof glue.
thats great. What do you think about using it in all the joints versus Titebond III. Should it be as strong or stronger?

[tom tangie]

The outdoor white oak furniture I've made has held up very well over the years.
Did you have a finish on it? Do you have to refinish every year? Wood magazine compared outdoor finishes and shows the UV resistant poly as good protection but it needs a another coat every couple years.

I particularly concerned about the rockers sitting in standing water. Even if coated, underneath will eventually be raw good exposed due to the rocking on cement.

[Don Abele]

White oak, outdoors??? How about if you left if exposed to rain, snow, and salt water year round? Well, that's what we do on the CONSTITUTION. The first six feet of our top deck is made of white oak (to support the weight of the cannons). The rest of the deck is Douglas Fir. The only thing we do to it is seal it once a year with a marine-grade sealer. The entire ship is made of white out (inner and outer planking) with one side of those planks exposed to the weather. The hull planking is painted with a marine-grade paint.

We are currently replacing the entire top deck and not due to deterioration, but to restore the camber (curve) to the deck to help wash water overboard. The oak we are removing is actually in really great shape and some of it is almost 60 years old.

So, yeah, I'd say white oak will hold up for an outdoor project, if properly maintained (even minimally as we do).

Be well,

Doc

[Charlie Plesums]

thats great. What do you think about using it in all the joints versus Titebond III. Should it be as strong or stronger?

I never found a reason to pay the extra cost for Titebond II or Titebond III. Both are water resistant, not waterproof, and most of the things I have seen (or built) for outdoors occasionally sit in a position that accumulates water, so IMHO water resistant isn't sufficient. That is why I use Poly glue for outdoor work (PL Premium construction adhesive as noted above... when the applicator gets plugged, I just punch a small hole in the side each time I use it (at the applicator end) to use the rest of the tube... it is cheaper, doesn't foam as much, and is easier to use than Gorilla glue, and with my hole trick, has longer shelf life).

I use plastic resin glue for veneering, but would consider it for outside use.

For day to day gluing, I use Borden's carpenter glue or Original Titebond. Both form a bond stronger than wood, both give ample open time (or mist it with water, if the water is evaporating too fast), and the extra couple degrees of allowed temperature range in II and III are not significant. The big advantage of these simpler glues is that you can readily clean up a finger print, smear, drool, ooze out, etc. It may take a bunch of elbow grease with a rag and clear water, but it works, even if you don't discover it until later.

[tom tangie]

doesnt a wet rag work to clean up the other glues too?

[Jacob Reverb]

My Dad built a dock/bulkhead out of white oak, where the boards extended underwater (the high-water line is where rot will normally begin since it's conducive to rot fungi which need oxygen and proper humidity levels).

It held up just fine with no finish, no nothing – and this was on a freshwater lake! (Saltwater inhibits rot since salt is somewhat toxic to rot fungi, but those same fungi just love freshwater!)

You won't find many domestic wood species that are more rot- and UV-resistant than white oak.

[Charlie Plesums]

doesnt a wet rag work to clean up the other glues too?
I assume that Titebond II and III do not clean up as easily, but I haven't worked with them extensively. I have been told, by woodworkers I respect, that I shouldn't try to clean up glue with a wet rag - that it only smears. I finally learned to check what glue they were using, and the people giving that advice usually were using II or IIII.

I go through about 2 gallons per year. Bordens and Original Titebond are cheaper, do everything I want, are amply strong, and clean up relatively easily.

[Howard Acheson]

>> I never found a reason to pay the extra cost for Titebond II or Titebond III. Both are water resistant, not waterproof,

Titebond II passes the ANSI test for a TYPE II water resistance. Titebond III passes the ANSI Type I test for being waterproof. TYPE II adhesives are used for most outdoor and high moisture applications except for those that are totally submerged for long periods. For totally submerged applications, a TYPE I adhesive is what you want.

DAP/Weldwood Plastic Resin (urea formaldehyde) is rated as a TYPE II water resistant adhesive.

Bottom line, a TYPE II adhesive is perfectly fine for moisture applications except for long term, totally submerged. There is little need for a TYPE I adhesive in most cases unless one is doing marine work.

[Neal Clayton]

It would be exposed to direct rain as it would be under patio cover made alternating slats. I would put several coats of uv resistant outdoor poly. The rockers are at most risk I would think since they could be touching water most the time. Another thing is that instead of using plastic resin glue for the bent lams I would have to use something like the TitebondIII waterproof glue. I read that it allows about 10 minutes open time and ive practiced with enough build to be able to get a lam clamped up in that time I should think. Thank you for the inputs

longer than that for titebond 3. i use it on pretty much everything and have taken apart pieces that were assembled 30-45 minutes ago. it takes an hour roughly to set, and a day to fully dry.

[tom tangie]

I assume that Titebond II and III do not clean up as easily, but I haven't worked with them extensively. I have been told, by woodworkers I respect, that I shouldn't try to clean up glue with a wet rag - that it only smears. I finally learned to check what glue they were using, and the people giving that advice usually were using II or IIII.

I go through about 2 gallons per year. Bordens and Original Titebond are cheaper, do everything I want, are amply strong, and clean up relatively easily.
they clean equally the same in my experience having used all the glues mentioned. But the caution of using wet rag to clean is a good one. It can leave the wood sealed and subsequent stain will may not absorb evenly.

I just try to be neat with glueups, sometimes taping joints on furniture projects and then use chisel and scraper to remove any squeeze out.

[tom tangie]

then I expect a reasonable solution for the rocker lamination where the rocker may often be in standing water would be to use Titebond III. Sounds like the white oak itself should be fine even as the bottom lamination touching the cement patio.


>> I never found a reason to pay the extra cost for Titebond II or Titebond III. Both are water resistant, not waterproof,

Titebond II passes the ANSI test for a TYPE II water resistance. Titebond III passes the ANSI Type I test for being waterproof. TYPE II adhesives are used for most outdoor and high moisture applications except for those that are totally submerged for long periods. For totally submerged applications, a TYPE I adhesive is what you want.

DAP/Weldwood Plastic Resin (urea formaldehyde) is rated as a TYPE II water resistant adhesive.

Bottom line, a TYPE II adhesive is perfectly fine for moisture applications except for long term, totally submerged. There is little need for a TYPE I adhesive in most cases unless one is doing marine work.

[Jeff Fender]

longer than that for titebond 3. i use it on pretty much everything and have taken apart pieces that were assembled 30-45 minutes ago. it takes an hour roughly to set, and a day to fully dry.
I love the set time/working time for TB III. With the work I do with bent laminates, almost exclusively white oak, it gives me plenty of time to bond the thin pieces of oak, but in the bending frame, clamp, align and continue to tighten...and yes, it's a very easy clean up with a wet rag when wiping excess.

[Nissim Avrahami]

Hi Tom

Just forund something here...under the title "A few grainy tales"...
http://www.woodmagazine.com/materials-guide/lumber/understanding-wood-grain/;jsessionid=JJ3KS4ARIUB2VQFIBQPSCZQ?page=2

Regards
niki

[David Keller NC]

A comment about using Titebond III (or Titebond II) for submerged or constantly wet applications - it won't hold up. I made a dovetailed cypress box designed to hold wet sand in which very small pots with plants are to be placed (to keep them from drying out so fast during Southern summers). The dovetails were glued with a liberal smearing of Titebond III, but the glue bonds on all 4 corners failed within a month.

That doesn't mean that I don't like Titebond - I use it for most everything in the shop, but I wouldn't count on it for a critical outdoor application like a garden bench that will be exposed to the weather. The Titebond III bottle, by the way, warns against using it for submerged applications.

While messier, I'd use West System or System III epoxy. Many of their formulations have at least a 45 minute open time, which makes them ideal for complicated assemblies like a chair or seating bench with many glue joints that have to be put together simultaneously. And once epoxy is cured, it's completely waterproof (though it can still potentially fail with the movement of wood underneath from expansion/contraction).