Starrett vs LV Squares

[Edward P. Surowiec]

I plan to buy a 4" Double Square. Currently the Starrett and LV squares are the selling at the same price. Which one would do you like or recommend??

Thanks Ed

[Kevin Adams]

As a follow-up question, I just purchased the LV 4" double square and it's a beautiful tool, but alas not square! I checked it against two engineer's squares. How "square" are these supposed to be and are they always prone to maybe being a little off given that the blade does move? Would the Starrett be any different?

Thanks.
Kevin

[Jacob Reverb]

I just purchased the LV 4" double square and it's a beautiful tool, but alas not square!

Kinda takes the dew off the rose, doesn't it?

I've never had a problem with Starrett.

[Mac Cambra]

I would return it to Lee Valley, I am sure they will do whatever it takes to ensure you are happy.

[glenn bradley]

Another vote to return. I had a set of rulers and one was off 1/32" per 18". Quick and easy swap with LV, all is well. It happens, don't live with it.

As to the OP, I would have to hold them in my hand. I have the Woodcraft twin of the USA product LV sells. It is quite nice for the price. I did put a touch-up where the lock-knob rests so it would loosen without binding against the finish. If the Starrett "felt" better I would lean that way but we have had plenty of posts about Starrett that echo Kevin's experience with LV; my point is that the name doesn't always make the difference.

[Quesne Ouaques]

I would return it to Lee Valley, I am sure they will do whatever it takes to ensure you are happy.

Ditto. Lee Valley has the best customer service I have ever encountered.

[Peter Quinn]

I have a few rulers , a combo square, a center finder and inclinometer from starrett, all are great tools. Square, straight, flat, beautifully machined. Its as if QA does their job. The mechanicals on the starrett combo squares are the best; smooth, accurate, flawless. Little competition from other vendors except on price. The inclinometer is a 40 year old tag sale purchase, still works wonderfully, fits all my combo square rules perfectly.

You may get an acceptable tool from another vendor, I'm sure they have something closer to square than you received. I know many good wood workers that do great work with low budget import combo squares and refuse to spend the money on a starrett. But if you go with a Starett, you won't have to worry about it, it will be square, it will be straight, and it will stay that way barring any misuse on your part.

When I bought mine I checked out several other options, none had the feel and finish of a starrett.

[Shawn Walker]

I bought one from LV that wasn't square as well. Returned it and got one that was.
I brought my Starrett square with me to check it.
Maybe that answers your question.

[Ben Rafael]

I have a cheap double square I bought for less than $10 at HD years ago. It's as square as my pricey incra square. I've used it on nearly every project I've made since I got it. Any errors were my fault, not the squares fault. You can get good squares for cheap, you just need to verify that they are square when you get them.
The only exception is combo squares, the movement on the better ones is consistent, the cheap ones are not. A good combo square is pleasant to use, a bad one is irritating.

[Howard Acheson]

Here is something to keep in mind about squares.

No matter how much you spend for a device, you still don't know if it is square. I ran a large tool and die shop and we purchased a number of Brown & Sharp and Starrett devices and some of them were not "square". We had "standards" that our quality department periodically had validated by an outside service that we then used to verify the worker's tools.

One day, one of our designers brought in two plastic drawing triangles he had purchased at a local art supply store. He had them compared to our standards and they were as accurate as the tools could measure. The triangles cost a couple of dollars each. They would certainly serve very well as the "standard" in any woodworking shop to validate and/or adjust other devices.

An excellent way to validate the accuracy of the plastic squares is to use two squares on a flat surface. Get a $10-12 plastic 30-60-90 drafting square. To prove it's exactly 90°, take two to a glass counter, put the shorter legs on the counter and face the longer legs away from each other and butt them together (like a teepee). If the legs exactly butt, you can assume you have two perfect 90° angles. Using one of the plastic squares, do the same thing using your other tools. Any that mismatch, means that the tool is not square. You can also take the plastic square with you whenever you go to purchase another tool. Keep your "standard" somewhere where it doesn't get banged up.

Finally, remember that the wood you are using will expand and contract a couple of thousands from one day to the other. Does't pay to get too uptight.

While we are at it, I also only purchase the cheapest of adjustable squares. I square them with a drafting triangle and an auger file until they are square across 10". And I own a Bridge City square that isn't that accurate. Stainless steel machinist's squares are only square until you drop them. I have had several over the years and each has found a away to drop to the floor.

The key is to NEVER use your best square on for day to day measuring. Use it only as a reference tool to verify your other day to day tools.

In a comparison test reported in Fine Woodworking Magazine a couple of years ago, the Stanley #46-123 square was awarded the best value. It's much less expensive than a Starrett and just as accurate.

[Joe Fusco]

You might also want to check where your proposed Starrett square is being made, that might have some impact on your decision as well.

[glenn bradley]

I bought one from LV that wasn't square as well. Returned it and got one that was.
I brought my Starrett square with me to check it.
Maybe that answers your question.

And you know the Starrett wasn't the one out of square how? Not being a smarty, just curious as to your method.

[Jeff Duncan]

You might also want to check where your proposed Starrett square is being made, that might have some impact on your decision as well.

China??? Bite your tongue! Starrett are still made in Athol Ma. which is one reason why I buy their tools. As good a quality if not better than anyone else, and locally made. Don't know where the LV are made so can't comment on them.
As long as it's square it really doesn't matter who's name is on it. I like Starrett but I also have several other brands of squares floating around.
JeffD

[Brian Kent]

Ed,

What is your source of the Starrett for the same price as Lee Valley?

Brian

[Bruce Page]

Starrett tools have been in machinist’s tool boxes for decades. :cool:

[Dan Lautner]

I have a LV double square and two starrett combo squares. All three are square but the LV is easier to read and resists rust much better. The Starrett has a bit of reflection which makes it hard to read in certain lighting. I have
had some real problems with rust (dark patina) on the Starrett.

Dan

[John Gornall]

I'll second the plastic drafting squares - I use them to check many tools and to set the fence on my shoot board.

My Starrett squares were made in Scotland.

[Clifford Mescher]

Here is something to keep in mind about squares.

No matter how much you spend for a device, you still don't know if it is square. I ran a large tool and die shop and we purchased a number of Brown & Sharp and Starrett devices and some of them were not "square". We had "standards" that our quality department periodically had validated by an outside service that we then used to verify the worker's tools.

One day, one of our designers brought in two plastic drawing triangles he had purchased at a local art supply store. He had them compared to our standards and they were as accurate as the tools could measure. The triangles cost a couple of dollars each. They would certainly serve very well as the "standard" in any woodworking shop to validate and/or adjust other devices.

An excellent way to validate the accuracy of the plastic squares is to use two squares on a flat surface. Get a $10-12 plastic 30-60-90 drafting square. To prove it's exactly 90°, take two to a glass counter, put the shorter legs on the counter and face the longer legs away from each other and butt them together (like a teepee). If the legs exactly butt, you can assume you have two perfect 90° angles. Using one of the plastic squares, do the same thing using your other tools. Any that mismatch, means that the tool is not square. You can also take the plastic square with you whenever you go to purchase another tool. Keep your "standard" somewhere where it doesn't get banged up.

Finally, remember that the wood you are using will expand and contract a couple of thousands from one day to the other. Does't pay to get too uptight.

While we are at it, I also only purchase the cheapest of adjustable squares. I square them with a drafting triangle and an auger file until they are square across 10". And I own a Bridge City square that isn't that accurate. Stainless steel machinist's squares are only square until you drop them. I have had several over the years and each has found a away to drop to the floor.

The key is to NEVER use your best square on for day to day measuring. Use it only as a reference tool to verify your other day to day tools.

In a comparison test reported in Fine Woodworking Magazine a couple of years ago, the Stanley #46-123 square was awarded the best value. It's much less expensive than a Starrett and just as accurate.
To paraphrase actor-patriot, Charlton Heston, " I'll give you my Starrett when you take it from my cold, dead hands!" Clifford : )

[Edward P. Surowiec]

Brian , Amazon has the 4" doube square for $38.++, and LV has is selling their 4" double Sq for $38.+, both offer free shipping but LV's offer is good through 9/21.

Ed

[Clifford Mescher]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002FUM2Y/ref=s9sdps_c4_60_img2-rfc_p-frt_p-3215_g1-3102_g3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=0G4P65FASJHGNSP9D7KF&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=436516101&pf_rd_i=507846
Clifford

[Bruce Page]

I have a LV double square and two starrett combo squares. All three are square but the LV is easier to read and resists rust much better. The Starrett has a bit of reflection which makes it hard to read in certain lighting. I have
had some real problems with rust (dark patina) on the Starrett.

Dan

Dan, The Starrett satin chrome rules are easy in the eyes and also easy to read. They are also rust resistant. I have a 20yr old 24” Starrett satin chrome blade that shows no sign of rust.

Bare metal rules that are tarnished or hard to read will clean up nicely with some Scotch-Brite. I keep mine waxed.

[Jim Hill]

Ed,

I have both the LV and Starrett 4 inch double square. Personally, the LV fits in my hand better. The LV has a slightly wider blade than the Starrett does. They both should be accurate; if not, they should be replaced by the supplier. It would be best if you could handle both. Unfortunately, thats not always possible.

Jim

[Joel Goodman]

The 12" Starrett comes with various finishes on the ruler -- the poster who complained about rust may have the non chromed version. The satin chrome is worth the few dollars more. I don't know what the 4" rules specs are but I would find out before buying either.

[Joe Fusco]

Jeff,

I must have about 12 Starett squares each one dear to my heart. My comment came from the last time I held a Starett "digital calipers" in my hand, alas it was made in China. . .:(

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Get rid of that roseweood handled nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a Starett.

[Mark Rios]

China??? Bite your tongue! Starrett are still made in Athol Ma. which is one reason why I buy their tools. As good a quality if not better than anyone else, and locally made. Don't know where the LV are made so can't comment on them.
As long as it's square it really doesn't matter who's name is on it. I like Starrett but I also have several other brands of squares floating around.
JeffD



As has been mentioned some of Starretts tools are now made in China. I too have a Starrett toll made there. Mine is a dial caliper.

[Vijay Kumar]

The 12" Starrett comes with various finishes on the ruler -- the poster who complained about rust may have the non chromed version. The satin chrome is worth the few dollars more. I don't know what the 4" rules specs are but I would find out before buying either.

I dont believe that Starrett offers satin chrome on the 4 inch square,at least they didnt when I bought mine 2 years ago. The stain chrome is offered on the 6 inch and the 12 inch models.

Vijay

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
From Starrett's website:

Manufacturing Facilities Worldwide

Corporate Headquarters and Main Factory
The L. S. Starrett Company
121 Crescent Street
Athol, MA 01 331 U.S.A.
Telephone: 010 1 978-249-3551
Main FAX: 010 1 978-249-8495
This facility manufactures the complete line of precision tools and saw blades.
Mount Airy, NC
The L. S. Starrett Company
1372 Boggs Drive, P.O. Box 1268
Mount Airy, NC 27030-1268
Telephone: 336-789-5141
FAX: 336-789-8160
This facility manufactures band saw blade, other saw products and precision ground flat stock.

Cleveland, OH
The L. S. Starrett Company
24500 Detroit Road
Cleveland, OH 44145-2579
Telephone: 440-835-0001
FAX: 440-892-9555
This facility manufactures gage blocks/standards, M-1 All Purpose Lubricant.
Waite Park, MN
P.O. Box 430
1101 Prosper Drive
Waite Park, MN 56387
Tel: 320-251-7171
Fax: 320-259-5073
Toll Free: 800-482-8710
This facility manufactures custom granite products, granite surface plates and granite related accessories.


SCOTLAND
The L. S. Starrett Company Ltd.
Jedburgh TD8 6LR, Scotland
Telephone: 44 (0)1835-863501
FAX: 44 (0)1835-863018
Email: sales@starrett.co.uk
This facility manufactures and stocks full line of precision tools and saw blades and the complete line of optical measuring projectors and accessories.

BRAZIL
Starrett lnd (Indústria e Comércio Ltda)
Caixa Postal 171 13300-000-Itu, S.P., Brasil
Telephone: 55 11 4024-9500
FAX: 55 11 4024-2919
This facility manufactures complete lines of precision tools, saw blades, tape measures, and hand tools.

CHINA
Starrett Tools (Suzhou) Company Limited
Suzhou Industrial Park
20 Bai He Street
Suzhou, Jiangsu Province
P.R. China 215021
Tel: 86 512 6741.1940
FAX: 86 512 6741.5697
Email: suzhou_order@starrett.cn

This facility manufacturers saw blades and precision tools.

[Peter Quinn]

In a comparison test reported in Fine Woodworking Magazine a couple of years ago, the Stanley #46-123 square was awarded the best value. It's much less expensive than a Starrett and just as accurate.

I appreciate and agree with much of what Howard said in his post, but Howard, are you kidding about this last part? I have that tool in its 15" version for construction, and it is and has been the biggest POS I have ever purchased, simply not suitable for precision work IMO. No pleasure to adjust either. Barely good enough to mark up framing lumber.

I have a bunch of plastic drafting triangles, very accurate, handy for drawing, setup and layout, but the OP was interested in a 4" double square, not a cheap way to make a right angle. I use Groz import machinists squares for day to day work in the shop, because they are cheap, accurate and easy to replace when they hit the floor. Pretty much anybody making tools should be able to make a static right angle, just not that complicated. But when a tool must move and stay accurate, and its movement must be smooth and precise, look for a Starrett.

As to those cheap Chinese Starrett import calipers, I assume they are what used to be called "mortgage lifters", something to pay the rent so they can keep making fine measuring and layout tools in the digital age. Pretty sure they still make the good ones too, if you need that level of accuracy and are willing to pay for it..

[Joe Vincent]

It's been mentioned here that you can fix an out of square square with a file. Would appreciate if someone would give an explanation as to the steps to take to accomplish that.

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff,

I must have about 12 Starett squares each one dear to my heart. My comment came from the last time I held a Starett "digital calipers" in my hand, alas it was made in China. . .:(

It seems I owe you an apology Joe, alas it appears the unthinkable has happened and yet another American Institution has started down the dark path, (insert smily with teary eyes here). I never thought I'd see the day when a Starrett tool had "made in China" stamped on it, but I guess this is what happens in a Wal-Mart style cost obsessed society.
I'll still be purchasing Starrett tools for my shop, but now it seems I'll have to confirm it's origin before buying. Hopefully the combo squares will still be made here at home where Starrett perfected and introduced them. I guess time will tell?
JeffD

[David Keller NC]

I've repeated this a few times in forums over the last couple of months, but Mike Dunbar said (paraphrasing): "Woodworkers think and engineer's digital calipers are a woodworking tool - they're not."

He's right about that. Ultra-precision engineer's squares are very useful for doing some adjustment operations of woodworking machinery. And while they will certainly work for marking out wood, their precision (and potential fragility) is unnecessary for this type of work. It's even possible for their precision to be damaging - I can think of one newbie in a class I took long ago that continued to joint a board until it was too small for his project because his engineer's square showed him that the edges were slightly "off" 90 degrees.

The point here is that a small square that's in use daily for marking out dovetails, lengths, square, etc... doesn't really even need graduations, much less adjustability and extreme precision. That's why I use the WoodJoy small square - it has all of the common imperial measurements built into the tool, no graduations to get smudged, rubbed off or otherwise rendered illegible, and no adjustments to get gunked up.

And, I do have several high precision squares that get used when I need to set up a power tool precisely, but they mostly stay in the tool box protected from day to day dings and accidental drops. And - they're all Starret (and all made in the USA - I will not buy tools from China if I can help it).

[Ben Rafael]

Just because something is made in China doesn't mean it is junk or less excellent. I've seen plenty of junk made in the US.