What will I need to make oak doors?

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
What am I going to need tool-wise to make about 10 oak doors?
Will a router handle it or should I be looking at a shaper?

Oops - better be more specfic - doors as in bedroom doors/interior doors.

[Cary Falk]

A 3+hp router in a table would do it, but who am I to stop you from buying a new tool.:D A shaper would wiz through them like butta.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Rich, personally, I prefer a shaper for this kind of work. A shaper spins larger cutters, which results in better cutting geometry.

A shaper has a large flat cast iron table (I've never seen a "My Shaper Table is Sagging" thread on the forum).

A shaper has an induction motor that is quiet and powerful, a 3 HP router is probably about 1 HP, a 3HP shaper is 3 HP.

You can run router bits in a shaper, although you lose some of the shaper benefits (large diameter cutter, bettter cutting geometry).

I use a power feeder with mine, keeps my fingers out of harms way, and produces a superior cut quality. (The feeder always pushes the work into the fence, and down onto the table with the same force, at a constant speed. A person cannot duplicate that).

I suggest that you investigate cutters before making a decision, shaper cutters can be expensive, however they last a long time.

As a hobbiest, I don't own a router table, I own a shaper and having watched people use a router table, I'm glad I bought a shaper. When I worked in industry, we made components and moulding on shapers and stickers, no routers.

I mostly use HSS knives in a cutter head, as I only machine solid wood. A cutterhead such as the CMT, Hammer, Felder etc. allows you to choose from hundreds of knife profiles, at a cost of around $20 per pair. In solid wood with a feeder, and correct cutter speed ( 10,000 to 14,000 ft/min) you should be able to machine about 500 to 1,000 feet of material before sharpening.

Interior doors require wide, deep cuts, which requires the machine to remove a lot of material. A shaper may require two passes, a router even more passes since the router has a much lower HP motor, and the cutters cannot remove as large a chip as a shaper cutter.

If you weren't starting out with a project with large profiles, I might have suggested a router table, since many people do use one.

In summation, I've never regretted purchasing a shaper (except that I may buy one with a sliding table next year) instead of a router. I cannot think of a single individual who purchased a shaper, and later thought that they should have bought a router table.

Regards, Rod.

[Phil Harding]

I've completed four so far and have two in process and six more to make. While I would love to have a shaper and power feeder for this it's just not feasible for my hobby shop.

I'm using the Freud 99-267 1-3/4" and 1-3/8" Entry & Interior Door Router Bit System and Freud's 99-515 3-1/2-Inch 2+2 Raised Panel Bit in a router table with a 3 1/2 HP router. I also use a Jet bench-top hollow chisel mortiser to cut the mortises. My doors are 1 3/8 thick.

Cutting the extended tenons and coping and the raised panels removes a lot of wood so I take my time and make shallow cuts. I'm absolutely happy with the Freud bits - very precise and everything lines up perfectly square. The biggest issue I've run into is finding 6/4 straight grain red oak for the rails and stiles:D.

-- Phil

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Entry doors?

Hand tools will serve you very well.
Barring that a good router &/or table saw.

Use epoxy on the joints and on the finish and you'll prevent a lot of problems from moisture swelling and rot later on.

[Alan Schaffter]

What Rod and Phil said!

If you are doing shaker or A&C style doors without molded edges on the stiles and rails you can do it all on a tablesaw. It is easier if you have a tenoning jig and a hollow chisel mortiser.

If the stiles and rails will have profiled edges and/or the door will have contoured raised panels, then you will need a shaper or a router with a set like the Freud.

I made three oak doors for my workshop; two in the A&C style, one traditional style. For the traditional style door I used a Jessada/Infinity kitchen cabinet door router bit that cuts the profile and stub mortise and tenons in 3/4" thick stock. I disassembled the bits so I could compensate for the thicker 1 3/8" thick doors. I used a mortiser to deepen the shallow stub mortises and to remove the stub tenon and cut mortises on the ends of the rails so I could use long, loose tenons. It would have been MUCH easier with the Freud set mentioned previously. The A&C style doors were made with the tablesaw, tenoning jig, and benchtop mortiser.

A 1 3/8" thick oak interior door is VERY HEAVY!!! You will want/need to use 3 hinges!

A&C shop bathroom door. Panels and panel dados cut; panels and interior stiles dry fit to the rails, but before rail tenons had been cut.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/BathDoor-2.JPG

Glue-up:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/BathDoor-3.JPG

Finished door:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/BathDoor-9.JPG

Bathroom door detail (applied decal :) ):
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/BathDoor-11.JPG

A&C half glazed, shop office door:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/OffDoor-10.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/OffDoor-11.JPG

Traditional, half glazed, raised panel, shop entry door:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/Trim-4.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/Trim-11.JPG

Two of the three doors plus sink area cabinets:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/BathDoor-5.JPG

[Brad Shipton]

For ten doors I would invest in a shaper, but admit to being very fussy. I am in the midst of five doors and am using a shaper/PF. You can see many can produce quality doors without and honestly, they will have saved a lot of $$ by avoiding the shaper. I wouldnt trade you a shaper for a router table any day, but I know there is a cost to that decision. I also use my shaper to make my own custom trim and the PF really shines at that. Try feeding 400ft of stock by hand.

The advantage to the shaper it is far more solid than any router table will ever be. Mine weighs around 1000lb and there is no replacement for mass. It does not vibrate. Along with that, the motor is a true 5hp, not 3.5hp at 25000rpm. It will hog out large quantities of material in single passes all day long and not get hot or complain. The spindle is also bigger and stiffer by design. I am not saying that a router wont do it, but if you wanna spin big cutters and make joints in a single pass to minimize the potential for fit problems, this is the machine for the job.

Dont take Rod's comment lightly about the tooling costs. I assume you want to make the panel groove, raised panels and the stub tenon. If you are thinking of large tenons the tooling can be very expensive. Many do not use much more than a stub tenon for interior doors, but some do like bigger tenons. If you are thinking of 3" tenons or greater, it takes a big diameter cutter that not too many sell. Garniga sells 12" diameter versions, but they are around $800 each and it takes a pair to make a tenon in a single pass (can use a single cutter and make half at a time if you wanna flip the stock). The advantage of a shaper cut tenon, is they are perfect every time. No paring once your setup is correct. I am sure the router guys will say theres are too, but when you have to make multiple passes you risk small imperfections. The adjustable groover for the panel grooves are not that bad. Maybe $200 for a basic one(shims to adjust cut width), more if you want a fancy type. If you aiming for raised panels, LRH/Amana... and many others make cheap braized versions, but I prefer the insert style like Garniga and others offer. Again, those are expensive.

Do not underestimate the project you are about to embark upon. There is a reason why solid wood interior doors cost what they do. It is a lot of work.

Good luck

[Alan Schaffter]

Brad has some good points.

One issue mentioned in a few posts, but not stressed enough is that a shaper can be VERY dangerous. They work better and are safer if you use a stock feeder. But at several hundred bucks for a decent stock feeder, it may not be something you want or can afford.

Another thing to consider- how is your craftmanship? Will you spend a lot of money buying bits, router, shaper, wood, etc. and end up with some fine looking firewood! Your wood needs to be top quality, kiln dried- you don't want your doors to warp.

FYI, when I made my shop doors, I didn't use the fancy Freud bits or my 3 hp Delta shaper, since I didn't want to spend the money on the door bits- these were the first, and probably the last solid doors I will ever make.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
Thanks for all the great advice.
I'm still somewhat at a crossroad on this.


Another thing to consider- how is your craftmanship? Will you spend a lot of money buying bits, router, shaper, wood, etc. and end up with some fine looking firewood!
A: Fairly poor. But - I'm trying.
I'd love to say I'm getting better, but..
To paraphrase Rudy - "God made some people woodworkers and I'm not one of them".

IMHO - I believe strongly in two things:
a.) Stupid should hurt.
b.) Learning should be expensive.
(no further comment needs to be made on the former of the two ;) - LOL! (I spend a lot of time "hurt" :D)

On the latter of the two, while I'm not made of money, I don't consider all the firewood I've churned out over the last few years all that significant in the grand scheme of things.

Those doors (in the pictures) simply rock!
It's good to know I can make the A&C ones on a TS.
That pretty much seals the deal on the shaper idea.

The initial ~ 10 doors I had in mind were for my house.
Anything beyond those was going to be for the rehabs I plan on doing down the road.
Since I'm going to concentrate on A&C houses for those, the shaper would be of limited use - once all setup with the table saw.

[Mike Heidrick]

Alan, AMAZING!! Those are very very very nice. I am very impressed. Great job! I just made a door folder on teh computer and saved all those pictures!!

[William OConnell]

I started a video when I made 16 for a customer. There are 4 boring videos here. I did use a freud set on a router table. Lots of clamps and alot of patience and tolerance
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5422058107065451907&hl=en

[Michael Donahue]

Glue-up:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/BathDoor-3.JPG

Finished door:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/BathDoor-9.JPG

Bathroom door detail (applied decal :) ):
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/BathDoor-11.JPG

A&C half glazed, shop office door:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/OffDoor-10.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/OffDoor-11.JPG

Traditional, half glazed, raised panel, shop entry door:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/Trim-4.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/Trim-11.JPG

Two of the three doors plus sink area cabinets:
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/BathDoor-5.JPG

Those doors are stunning! :cool:

[Peter Quinn]

Nice doors Alan!:D

You can do it all with a good router in a table, you could even do it with a good router not in a table, I actually made a pair of 4'6" carriage house doors with arched tops using only a hand held router and a cordless drill. Three passes with a slot cutting bit, a jig for the stub tenons, a few dowels and viola. A&C doors with out a cope and stick profile are easy to make on a TS with a dado, or as I said with just a hand held router. You can add panel mold if you want a more formal look. I like dowel reinforcement for INTERIOR PASSAGE DOORS OF NORMAL SIZE, for really big doors or exterior, I don't recommend dowels, and do not under any circumstances make ten oak doors using just stub tenons. That is a crap shoot at best. Making tenons is not as hard as you might imagine and makes a very strong door. For dowels I use a cheepo self centering jig and a hand drill, 5 1/2" spiral maple dowels.

Of course the first step is stock preparation. Do you have the tools to flatten, thickness, rip and cross cut 80" stiles accurately? That is actually the biggest obstacle most will face. Without good flat stable stock any door project is doomed.

For cope and stick doors you can do it with a router in a table, but I would rather drive my van into a bridge abutment than make ten white oak doors on a router. At that point I'd seriously consider getting a decent shaper. The cutters are between $150 (CMT or AMANA insert knives) to $750 (Freeborne or Schmidt) depending on profile with some range in between, and you can resell them when finished to get back some of your investment.

The shaper is a great tool for wood working, practically essential for cope and stick work on 1 3/8"-1 3/4" double sided work, but depending on the door design you choose not necessary to make a good quality door.

[Alan Schaffter]

I caution about using dowels!!! That is doing the way I tried! Install them during assembly, not afterwards- I almost ruined a door that way. The length of the dowel needed to go from the edge of the stile to sufficient depth in the rails and the glue almost made it impossible to drive the dowels in from the edge of the door. I broke three in the process. Countersunk lag bolts would have been better!

[Mike Wilkins]

Just picked up a copy of American Woodworker magazine. They have an article inside that talks about that same thing. Shows several router bit sets made specifically for making entry and interior doors. You just need a router table with decent horsepower.

[Peter Quinn]

I caution about using dowels!!! That is doing the way I tried! Install them during assembly, not afterwards- I almost ruined a door that way. The length of the dowel needed to go from the edge of the stile to sufficient depth in the rails and the glue almost made it impossible to drive the dowels in from the edge of the door. I broke three in the process. Countersunk lag bolts would have been better!

I've never tried adding the dowels after, though I have heard of that. At work we have a multi head line boring machine to pop the holes, they are always part of assembly. In my own shop I use one of those self centering dowel jigs like they sell at wood craft and a long brad point. Nothing fancy.

I forgot to mention that we use custom ordered undersized dowels at work. For instance, for a .500" hole we use a .490-.485" dowel. You just can't get .500" dowel and (2X) .006" glue film in a .500" hole! I think the minimum order on custom dowels is 5000 pieces? Not feasible for 10 doors, but you can get standard dowels, chuck them in a drill press and take off .010" quick with some rosin cloth. Thats how I make em fit at home, cause I just don't need 5000 dowels in my small shop. Or you can have a machine shop punch the bushing in the jig .012" over and use a fractional bit one size bigger and standard sized dowels, seen em do that too.

[Alan Schaffter]

I've never tried adding the dowels after, though I have heard of that. At work we have a multi head line boring machine to pop the holes, they are always part of assembly. In my own shop I use one of those self centering dowel jigs like they sell at wood craft and a long brad point. Nothing fancy.

I forgot to mention that we use custom ordered undersized dowels at work. For instance, for a .500" hole we use a .490-.485" dowel. You just can't get .500" dowel and (2X) .006" glue film in a .500" hole! I think the minimum order on custom dowels is 5000 pieces? Not feasible for 10 doors, but you can get standard dowels, chuck them in a drill press and take off .010" quick with some rosin cloth. Thats how I make em fit at home, cause I just don't need 5000 dowels in my small shop. Or you can have a machine shop punch the bushing in the jig .012" over and use a fractional bit one size bigger and standard sized dowels, seen em do that too.

I sanded them, then ran a hacksaw blade multiple times along the length of each dowel but still was barely able to drive them in.

[Will Blick]

Peter, can you elaborate on "when" you will use dowels, AND when you won't use them? I am sure its a mix of variables, but I assume with enough dowels, even a heavy door is fully secured? Or maybe I am missing the reason why you set a cut-off point, i.e. you will NOT use dowels ?

[Brian Peters]

You can either sand the dowels down (pain unless its only like 1-2 doors) or enlargen the hole. I've found just using a drill bit a hair larger works well. After all if you're using waterbased glue the dowel is going to expand anyways. Gotta love seeing cheaply made lumber yard doors and in the sunlight you can see the dowels because they put them in there so tight and they expanded showing large lumps where they are on the face of the door. Even after running them through a wide belt. :D But you shouldn't have to force them in, and as neccesary as they are for entry doors, its also neccesary that you have some play, ability to adjust so you can get everything flush and square, sometimes a hole a bit larger allows that.

[Neal Clayton]

if you're matching them to an existing frame a jig system for mortising the hinges is worth the time as well. i've done the same thing you're doing with salvaged antique doors, and the amount of time you spend measuring and forgetting what you measured then re-measuring, a couple hundred bucks for a hinge mortising jig is worth the time savings, imo.

i have the porter cable one, it works great if you have a small'ish porter cable router (i have the 1.5hp fixed PC one for this purpose and other random hand held router use). bosch makes a similar jig if you have bosch routers. you need to match manufacturers for the guide bushings to work.

as someone else mentioned, the biggest trick really is finding lumber up to par appearance and structure wise. you need flawless wood for the structure of the door, and even better than that to cut the end grain on a raised panel without tears/splits.

i also agree with three 4" to 5" hinges. here's a good formula to guesstimate the end weight by...

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl?calculator=weight_bd_ft

by their calculator your finished door at 8% moisture content should weigh roughly 88 pounds, minus a bit for the panels and such. that's not something you slap up on a couple of home depot flush mount hinges and hope it doesn't fall (because it will ;)).

[Brad Shipton]

I calculated the weight of my wood door to be 120lb. It is 1.75" thick rails, with a veneered MDF panels. Single mid height rail.

Personally, I prefer tenons and once you are setup they really do not take much longer so long as you have a you have a mortise machine.

It is interesting to hear the discussion of joints, but what the OP is proposing is nearing the lines of a small production. If you dont want the project to drag on endlessly, I would suggest approaching it along those lines.

I dont know if anyone is interested, but darn it, it was quite a bit of work so I'm gonna share with some that understand.

Here is a pic of a little pile of stock for five doors. This is only the rails and stiles (stave core after applying veneers and about to be surfaced to final thickness). Please do not pay any attention to the unfinished messy garage.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Passage%20Doors/DSC01667.jpg

And here is a wee pile of veneer panels ready for the final Makore. One of the panels is finished and stored above.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Passage%20Doors/DSC01748.jpg

And hopefully in a few more days I will have five about like this, well maybe I'll find em some glue. The tenons have been hauched since this pic.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Passage%20Doors/DSC01751-sm2.jpg

So the truly painful finishing process can start. The door fab is about 1/2 the battle.

By the way, the Makore panel shown in this pic was my first one and is only propped up into place. It is going to be turned into a table sometime as there are a couple of tape joints that are not too my liking. The final panels have been made so the four way match is centered in the larger panel.

Brad

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, can you elaborate on "when" you will use dowels, AND when you won't use them? I am sure its a mix of variables, but I assume with enough dowels, even a heavy door is fully secured? Or maybe I am missing the reason why you set a cut-off point, i.e. you will NOT use dowels ?

My issue is not so much with weight as width. If the door goes beyond 3'0" I start to worry about the dowels ability to handle that stress long term. The hinges hold one stile, the rest of the weight is basically cantilevered off of that. More rails and stiles make the door stronger, so design matters. Its tough to get much more specific than that given all the design possibilities.

I don't like dowels for exterior doors though I believe some use them. With a different environment on each side of the door an exterior wooden unit needs all the advantage it can get. I used them for a set of carriage house doors on my old garage. I needed a set quick, cheap and dirty. Its been two years, no problems. I give them 5-8 years max, but who knows?

As a few others noted, for top grade custom work a real mortise can't be beat, but dowels are pretty strong and very much quicker. Unless you have a very large passage or pocket door in mind dowels are usually adequate for most interior applications (1 3/8" or 1 3/4") and require minimal tooling or setup relative to integral M&T joints. For passage doors you need to source 5 1/2" X 1/2" spiral dowels and a bit long enough to drill the holes.

[Will Blick]

Thanks for the clarification Pete.... yep, maybe dowels are borderline for the 3' doors on my hit list....

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

It is interesting to hear the discussion of joints, but what the OP is proposing is nearing the lines of a small production. If you dont want the project to drag on endlessly, I would suggest approaching it along those lines.

Brad,
Sweet looking doors! Please keep up with the pictures of the progress.

Correct - as I mentioned above, the initial run is a prelude to what might be down the road.

[Brad Shipton]

I didnt mean to sound negative. It is a fun project, but pretty darn time consuming. I wouldnt do stave core again, way too much work for the little risk with the low humidity in my area. Find some good stock as suggested and pay the $$. I was convinced stave core was a good option several years ago and picked up all the staves from a glulam supplier. It saved a few bucks on materials for sure, but there was a few days to edge the stock, slice up the veneers, and then vac press the veneers on.

Thanks for the compliment. I have taken photos along the way so when family/friends ask why the heck it is taking so long I can show them. Maybe sometime I will add a thread along the lines of some who document their projects on here.

Good luck and be sure to ask about your design as you move forward. The craftsman interior book by Robert Lang may be useful. Lee Valley sells it. If you do pick up a shaper, Peter shared some very valuable tips to perfect the stock width with an outboard fence when I was chatting with him about some flooring I was making.

Brad

[Brian Peters]

Nice looking setup. Stave core doors are great, extremely solid and stable and if done right I prefer them sometimes to solid wood doors. The material is cheaper but more labor involved often making it not about the money but only about stability. I wouldn't do it unless it was spec'd or absolutely needed. Full mortise and tenon will make that door rock solid. Lots of veneer layout and layup there! Do you have a resaw-bandsaw? Nice combo planer/jointer, how much did that set you back? How are you doing your mortising and tennoning? Dedicated horizontal boring machine?

[Brad Shipton]

Biran, for re-sawing I use an 18" GI. I ended up replacing the orig bearings with a Carter setup and that helped quite a bit, but I still need to keep practicing at making 12"x96" Veneers from 1 3/4" stock. They are a bit harder to get perfect pieces from. I was told I should be able to get the veneers within 1/64" of the desired thickness and I still have not got that on 12" stock. By the way, I only made up the veneer stock for the door rails/stiles. The other came from Certainly wood (those guys are awesome).

The J/P set me back about $3500 if I recall, but then I added a 30" extension and a 16" extension for making the door stock. Its a good hobby type machine, but I would prefer a bit bigger one and a four post version over a single poster. Really like the digital gauge it has and the quick change over blades.

For mortising I use a 1hp GI mortiser. It is ok, but have been very tempted to add the mortiser to my J/P. It sure seems the horizontal mortiser does a better job for cut quality and accuracy, but the GI is no slouch either. Deleting the mortiser would also get me back some space I need.

For tenoning I have a Felder Saw/shaper. The shaper cutter block I really want for tenoning was kinda pricey for now. I would like a pair of the 12" Garniga tenon heads. One pass, perfect tenon every time, but they are $750 a piece. I have been using the Felder/Hammer dado head in the saw. The nice thing about this dado head is it is a shaper cutter with a perfectly flat cutter and removable scribers. The scriber leaves a very nice side cut too. I was concerned about making the tenons with the dado head as once you involve flipping the stock and referencing from the opposite sides you can end up with tenon imperfections that require a shoulder plane and a 1/2 hr to fix. Luckily, due to Peters suggestions to perfect the stock with the outboard fence on the shaper some time ago, that did not turn out to be a problem.

I know you can have the Freud style dado ground flat, but they dont fit euro machines. I did one project where I used a dado head straight out of the box, and after spending about 6hr paring 12 tenons, I decided not to do that again.

Brad