Kneeling at the Creek

[Clay Thigpen]

Brothers and Sisters I come to you today a Normite de-evolved. I have always had an intense interest in hand tools and the history they share but I have never really acted on that interest, until I saw The Woodwrights shop for the first time a few months ago. I can't tell you how many Woodworking book's and Magazines I own/have a subscription too but I had never heard of Roy Underhill "St. Roy" until then. The ease and quickness with which he and his guests work astounded me, his guest was making a carved box out of green wood when I first saw his show, he preformed cuts that transformed into shapes in what seemed a haphazard way but it looked beautiful.

I know that skill like that comes with years of experience but I'd wager it doesn't take as long to learn that way as it does to learn to set up and Incara Jig or any other machine process. Less time in set up too I'd bet. I have more experience in Wood "theory" than actual "working" when my shop was running, it's now w/o power, it only turned out half baked projects mostly out of "Sheet Goods" and 2x4's. I've made myself a promise to change the way I work and what I make it may take a while but I hear it's a slippery slope and I hope to be a full Neander oneday. I'm interested in 17th to mid 19th century hand tools and shops. I've lurked on this fourm for a while so I feel like I know some of you already.

Your Galoot in Training.

[Mike Henderson]

Welcome! We don't require kneeling here at the Creek. However, you might want to set up a small altar in one corner of your workspace and place one or more of your neander tools there. A simple bow or genuflection in the direction of the altar is all that's required when you enter the shop, maybe along with some incense.

Welcome, brother, remember that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance* (that refers to the neander lifestyle, of course).

Mike

*Luke 15:7

[Michael Faurot]

Congrats on finding your way out of the closet. ;)

I've only seen a few of Roy Underhill's shows, my local PBS affiliate doesn't carry The Woodwright's Shop, but fortunately it's possible to watch some of them online (http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/schedule/video.html).

[John Dykes]

Welcome! The first and foremost hand tool skill is sharpening, and oft times obscures the "slippery slope." (The second most practiced hand tools skill is shopping; close third is gloating. :p)

So rise ye - and take up thine sharpening kit... for dull is the way that leadeth back to powered tools.



- jbd in Denver

[Don C Peterson]

Welcome! The first and foremost hand tool skill is sharpening, and oft times obscures the "slippery slope." (The second most practiced hand tools skill is shopping; close third is gloating. :p)

So rise ye - and take up thine sharpening kit... for dull is the way that leadeth back to powered tools.



- jbd in Denver

LOL

If I might expand on that just a bit...

Sharp is the gate and fettled is the way that leadeth to neanderthal heaven, and dull is the way that leadeth back to Normisim...

Yes, welcome to the quiet side of the hill Clay. But in all seriousness, you'll find very few "full neander's" here. We all have our reasons for using hand tools whether it's less noise, less mess, safety, nostalgia, efficiency, etc... Regardless of the motivation to be neander, most of us still burn electrons from time to time; when heavy stock preparation is required for example. I wouldn't get near as much work done without my thickness planer, tablesaw, and bandsaw.

[David Keller NC]

Hah! Kneeling not required - but it is necessary to bury your biscuit joiner within a pentagram in the back yard....:)

[Mark Berenbrok]

Clay - Welcome! Come join us at the Columbia Woodworkers Club (http://www.columbiawoodworkersclub.com/). We're right down the road.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hah! Kneeling not required - but it is necessary to bury your biscuit joiner within a pentagram in the back yard....:)

And your pneumatic nailer!

Like many, my work is a combination of machine and hand tools.

If I didn't use a jointer/planer/tablesaw/bandsaw I wouldn't get much accomplished.

Hand tools only become pleasureable once you've learned to sharpen, adjust and operate them. Until then they're an aggravation.

Welcome to the shaving side of woodworking.......Rod.

[Wilbur Pan]

Clay - Welcome! Come join us at the Columbia Woodworkers Club (http://www.columbiawoodworkersclub.com/). We're right down the road.

Clay, this is probably the best advice you'll get. Getting info off the internet is great, but there's nothing like talking to people in person. Go to the club, and find their hand tool fanatic. Every club has one. ;)

[Chuck Hamman]

Clay,
Wecome to the slippery slope. I've been a fan of Roy's for may years - I have a smal grotto in the back yard deicated to the man. ;)

A word of caution about watching Roy - I hope your not squemish about blood!

Regards,
-Chuck

[Peter Quadarella]

I've been watching Roy for years, long before I even got into Woodworking. He is excellent. I'm always amazed how he does his shows in one long take.

[David Keller NC]

Funny thing about Roy and blood - He showed up to the MWTCA meet this July in Raleigh, and bought a very large "model" of a wooden plane from one of the guys at the meet. The model looked very much like a huge jointer, but with drawers in either end. He noted that he wanted it for a shop sign for his new school in Pittsboro - along with a box of Bandaids!

[harry strasil]

Welcome to the Quiet Zone Clay.

Yeah, tho I walked constantly thru the clutter of saw and sanding dust an inch thick on everything, with my safety shield quite dusted up to the point of near blindness my head hurting from the constant pressure of the ear protectors constantly clamping my ears to my head lest they vibrate and fall under foot and in constant fear of not being able to count to ten on mangled and shortened digits. I see clearly now, I hear the pleasant almost silent sound of cold, extremely sharp steel slicing thru the beautiful and pleasing grain that God provided for me to show thru and enhance the fruit of my labor from his renewable garden spot called Forest. No more scratching of the beautiful grain structure with smaller and smaller scratches on the quest to proudly show the smooth and delicate appearance of the woods grain. Amen

[Tyler Howell]

I like Roy because he has dirt under his fingernails and band-aids on his wounds.
Unlike his TV peers, he makes mistakes.

I've had the pleasure of watching him in action and he's like that with or with out the camara rolling.;)

[Clay Thigpen]

This is without a doubt the warmest welcome I've had on a forum in a while. I'm grateful for the few power tools skill I've got with the few power tools I have ,(even if they are useless for the time being), I've got the usual set up table saw, radial arm saw, thickness planner (25"), jointer (2 really old ones), band saw, and a super shop ( like the total shop). I hope to be making some small items soon, boxes and the like, I've got a few back saws and some older rip and cross cut saws ( one's got teeth on both sides) and a few hand planes, draw knives, braces, breast drill a few other things here and there.

I'm thinking about going the scary sharp path to start out with, although I've seen some decent water and oil stone sets for sell from some of the hand tool stores. I want to get a guide sometime soon but if the tools still have their original bevel I think I could do it free hand, maybe. I have a "good enough" bench that my grandfather made that would do to hold anything I'd plane for now and some room to sharpen my tools on as well. I picked up a book by Drew Langsner in an antique shoppe about month back and I'm trying to get a froe made by my step father (good welder). I may look into a bench Axe soon I already do my "shopping" when ever I get the chance but the places in my area seem to have dried up of hand tools except for a few "slightly higher than I'm willing to pay" Transitional planes.

[Clay Thigpen]

Sounds great! I look forward to going.

[David Keller NC]

Clay - I mostly make 18th century colonial American repros, but also make quite a few boxes, frames, and the like (once relatives figure out you have a woodshop and skills, it's hard to avoid requests for things like that!).

A couple of things I'd suggest adding to your arsenal given what you're making: A hand-built miter box, a good shooting plane (doesn't have to be a miter plane, can be a #5 L-N, L-V or old Stanley with 90 degree sides), and two other hand-built jigs designed for shooting miters - a shooting board, and a donkey's ear shooting fixture. The miter box is just 3 pieces of wood very carefully joined into a U shape with 90 degree edges, and whatever backsaw you want to use with it (and you need to keep using that backsaw - the kerf you cut into the box is specific to the saw).

The shooting board and donkey's ear shooting fixture are pretty easy to make as well. LOTS of plans are out there on the net. The shooting board and plane helps you get exactly 45 degree miters on a frame, and the donkey's ear shooting board helps you get exactly 45 degree standing miter joints on a box. The first time I made and used these tools it was a revelation - no more slightly out of alignment 45 degree joints because a chop saw blade flexed a little during the cut. It's a real joy to glue up a box that has perfectly fitting joints - and a real frustrating struggle if they don't fit!

[Michael Faurot]

I'm thinking about going the scary sharp path to start out with, although I've seen some decent water and oil stone sets for sell from some of the hand tool stores.


A lot of folks use scary sharp and like it. I'm no longer one of them. For me, there's several problems with this:


The sand paper itself. It wears out relatively quickly and if you're like me you tend to want to use it long past the point that it's really effective. It's an on-going cost to keep a supply of the numerous grits of paper around. It can be torn and damaged in the process of sharpening something.
Attaching the paper to the flat surface. If you use water, to wet the paper, that can get messy. If you use a spray on adhesive, you typically have to clean the flat surface afterward with something like Goof-Off to get rid of any little lumps of adhesive.

I'm also no longer a big fan of water stones. I do still use them on occasion but the constant need to check that they're flat and the frequent need to flatten them, I find to be problematic. I also don't like the mess from all the water. As was discussed in this recent thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92175), if you're not checking the stones for flat, and checking the method you use to flatten the stones is also flat, you're going to have problems with the results.

What I'm finding to be just about ideal is the method I learned from attending classes at the Homestead Heritage school. Basically it involves using two diamond plate stones (coarse and fine) and a leather strop. The quality made diamond stones have the advantage of just staying flat and seem to last for a very long time. Be sure to get the type without the mesh (holes) on top. The types with the holes make sharpening small chisels close to impossible.



I want to get a guide sometime soon but if the tools still have their original bevel I think I could do it free hand, maybe.Try it without a guide for awhile first and see if you can get the results you want. The ultimate objective is to get your tools sharp as quickly and efficiently as possible so you can get back to working the wood.

[Bill Moser]

Clay - Roy is cool, and there are lots of others that can contribute to your knowledge and a broader picture. I haven't seen Roy's show, but I have several of his books. There are many others with different philosophies, and they are all of great help to me as I learn. The ones that come to mind are the usual suspects. My favorite being James Krenov, but also Jim Kingshott, Frank Klausz, Ian Kirby, David Charlesworth, Peter Korn, Tage Frid, Thomas Moser (no relation, unless he cares to adopt me:D), old school guys like George Ellis and Bernard Jones, and new school dudes like Chris Schwarz. The list is endless, and the common thread is love for the inherent beauty of wood, and the tools and skills needed to craft that wood into some other beautiful forms that we call furniture.
regards
bill

[Mike Henderson]

What I'm finding to be just about ideal is the method I learned from attending classes at the Homestead Heritage school. Basically it involves using two diamond plate stones (coarse and fine) and a leather strop. The quality made diamond stones have the advantage of just staying flat and seem to last for a very long time. Be sure to get the type without the mesh (holes) on top. The types with the holes make sharpening small chisels close to impossible.

Try it without a guide for awhile first and see if you can get the results you want. The ultimate objective is to get your tools sharp as quickly and efficiently as possible so you can get back to working the wood.
Michael - what diamond plates do you use/like? If you can provide a link, that would be appreciated.

Mike

[Don C Peterson]

A lot of folks use scary sharp and like it. I'm no longer one of them. For me, there's several problems with this:

...
I'm also no longer a big fan of water stones.
...
What I'm finding to be just about ideal is the method I learned from attending classes at the Homestead Heritage school. Basically it involves using two diamond plate stones (coarse and fine) and a leather strop. The quality made diamond stones have the advantage of just staying flat and seem to last for a very long time. Be sure to get the type without the mesh (holes) on top. The types with the holes make sharpening small chisels close to impossible.

Try it without a guide for awhile first and see if you can get the results you want. The ultimate objective is to get your tools sharp as quickly and efficiently as possible so you can get back to working the wood.

I absolutely agree with Michael. I started using sandpaper and moved to waterstones I found both to be a pain for all the reasons Michael stated. I moved to using DMT diamond plates (http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/8-Dia-Sharp-Diamond-Stone-P7C24.aspx), I have a corse, fine, and extra fine plate and finally I have a hard black Arkansas stone and a strop. I use mineral spirits as lubricant on all of the plates and stones. I also have a diamond Odate plate from Japanwoodworker.com (http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=87.002&dept_id=13288)to put a camber on plane irons. I've been tempted to pickup an extra extra fine (3 micron) plate (http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Extra-Extra-Fine-Diamond-Stone-P125C24.aspx) because it would work faster than the Arkansas stone, but I just haven't been able to justify it yet...

I never have to worry about flattening, the mineral spirits don't cause the same kind of problems as water and I have been completely happy with the results.

[Clay Thigpen]

David Keller NC
A couple of things I'd suggest adding to your arsenal given what you're making: A hand-built miter box, a good shooting plane (doesn't have to be a miter plane, can be a #5 L-N, L-V or old Stanley with 90 degree sides), and two other hand-built jigs designed for shooting miters - a shooting board, and a donkey's ear shooting fixture.


I've got an old hand made miter box but it's time to make a new one. As for a shooting plane I've got a Stanley Baily #5 I picked up about 2 weeks ago that might do the trick but it needs some work, I'll get around to posting about that at some point ;). I'd never heard of a donkey's ear shooting fixture but now that I've have I want to build one, I know it will come in very handy indeed.


Michael Faurot
Basically it involves using two diamond plate stones (coarse and fine) and a leather strop.


How does this system work for you? Starting out for me I'm really price conscious right now, new job hasn't started paying, If the diamond plate stones last for a long time (their diamond so I guess that would have to) I'd be tempted to go with the 6" ones I know the 8" one's would be better but another $20 for 2" eh. I know 2" can make a big difference but looking at it for the long term it may be worth.


Bill Moser
My favorite being James Krenov, but also Jim Kingshott, Frank Klausz, Ian Kirby, David Charlesworth, Peter Korn, Tage Frid, Thomas Moser (no relation, unless he cares to adopt me:D), old school guys like George Ellis and Bernard Jones, and new school dudes like Chris Schwarz.


I know some of the names but I need to look into some a little deeper. I have a list of books already that I need to look into getting.

[David Keller NC]

Clay - A couple of comments about sharpening. There are LOTS of "right ways" to get a piece of steel sharp, and many opinions about the downsides of each. In my particular case, I use three Norton waterstones and a cheap granite surface plate and sandpaper to keep the stones flat. After I hone them, I use a leather strop glued to flat piece of mahogany and covered with a dry honing compound to touch up the edges while I'm working.

However, if initial outlay is a concern, I might suggest getting one of the small (and cheap) granite surface plates from Woodcraft, and silicon carbide sandpaper (sold as "wet-dry") in grits of 220, 400, 800, 1200, and 2000. About 5 sheets each will get you on your way, and the initial cost outlay will be very low. If at some later point you want to get water or oilstones to replace the sandpaper, the granite surface plate will come in very handy to keep these stones flat.

I have a couple of DMT stones, and I like them for coarse re-shaping of carving tools, but they are pretty expensive in initial outlay (though cheaper in lifetime costs). Moreover, I find that they don't last quite as long as I'd like. The coarse stones in particular seem to break down in effectiveness after a few months, and they can't just be re-surfaced like you would an oilstone or waterstone.

Just my $0.02 - if you post the topic of "sharpening", you'll get tons of alternative opinions. Just choose whichever one appeals to you, and concentrate your brainpower on learning the manual skill required to hold blades correctly during the honing strokes, and how to camber plane blades. In my opinion, someone's manual dexterity to do these tasks far outweigh whichever abrasive system they use, and even a honing jig does take some skill.

[Michael Faurot]

Michael - what diamond plates do you use/like? If you can provide a link, that would be appreciated.


I've had good results with the DMT diamond plates. I've purchased mine from Craftsman Studio (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/T%21D8.htm).

[Michael Faurot]

How does this system work for you?


The beauty of this method is it's both simple and doesn't take up a lot of space. After you get the stones, you'll want to make a bench hook style base for the two stones to sit in. Just some scrap wood with some indentations that the stones can sit in, which will hold them and keep them from moving around. Then you want to take another piece of scrap wood and glue down a strip of leather to it. You'll want to get some of the green honing compound (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32984&cat=1,43072) to rub into the leather of the strop.

If you're starting off with something new you'll work the bevel and the back on the coarse stone, then fine and then strop for about 20-30 strokes. Once you've established an edge, you should only need to strop to bring the blade back to sharp. After stropping awhile you'll need to go back to the stones again.

For me--that's all there is to it.



Starting out for me I'm really price conscious right now, new job hasn't started paying, If the diamond plate stones last for a long time (their diamond so I guess that would have to) I'd be tempted to go with the 6" ones I know the 8" one's would be better but another $20 for 2" eh. I know 2" can make a big difference but looking at it for the long term it may be worth.
The coarse and fine in the 6" DMT size are about $45 together from Craftsman Studio (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/T%21D6.htm). The 8" DMT coarse and fine plates would be about $85 together. The pricing on those 6" plates does look pretty good, and that would indeed get you going fairly inexpensively.

When I made my strop, I was able to get a bag of leather scraps from a local craft store. In particular Hobby Lobby. Another option would be to go by a place that does upholstery and see if they have any scraps you could have or buy. Finally if all else fails, just use an old leather belt. If you don't have one of those, go by a thirft store.

[harry strasil]

FWIW - I strop the cutting edge on the Rough side of the leather first and then I strop on the smooth side which I have rubbed Jewelers rouge on to finish. I also have a smallish piece treated this same way and when chiseling, I occasionally strop the edge on the rouged side a few swipes to keep the cutting edge in tip top shape all the time.

I found out that by adding some bees wax to my hand and foot powered mortiser chisels that they cut much easier, so now I occassionaly rub my hand chisel blades with bees wax

[John Dykes]

I started with Scary Sharp - did ok with it, but got quickly frustrated with obtaining consistent results - as well as the clogging \ changing of the sandpaper. Mind you, I'm the lowest common denominator here. Folks have used scary sharp for years and get great results. But I wasn't happy - it wasn't for me...

I had plenty of books that detailed sharpening methods, but my confidence was still budding. I searched for DVDs where I could see it being done... Stumbled onto David Charlesworth series and haven't looked back... For the expert old hand, his method may be overkill. But for the neophite, such minute attention to detail in an instructional DVD was a Godsend.

His outlay of materials is cheap - and the results are exceptional. Keep in mind, you should be thinking of methods to shape bevels as well.

Good luck -

- jbd in Denver