Like to make a hand saw.

[Dave Lehnert]

I would like to teach myself to make a dovetail saw. Not a kit. Can someone point me in the right direction. Source of steel etc..... Is there a steel that is cheaper to practice on?

[Jack Camillo]

excellent post, look forward to reading replies. I am also looking for the saw steel source (in small quantity) for personal creations. I've made the handles!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I made 2.
I lifted the handle designs from antique designs.
I made the blades from sheet rock scraper blades leaving the aluminum spine on and electing not to notice the holes. The blue steel is a perfect spring temper.

The file is a little tri corner I got from Tools For Woodworking .com

I tried and tried and tried to file the teeth. All I did was fail. Clearly it's a learned skill.

I made a saw toothing machine and can tooth a 12" blade with 20 teeth per inch very accurately in about an hour.

I made the handles very differently. One was made in a lamination with the joint down the middle of the handle and I used a router table to carve out the place where the saw blade and and spine rest. The other I cut by hand. Both work fine.

I made the first one with the blade as wide as the sheetrock scraper. That didn't like the little open style handle I had made that looked so nice. The saw would literally jerk to a hard stop about 3/4 the way down the blade.
I l;earned that this was because of the "hang" of the blade on the handle was all wrong. So I made a handle that is a but lower on the blade.

The next saw I made is cut the Sheet rock blade down making it a more narrow blade using a metal cutting blade in my skillsaw and a garden hose to keep the steel cool through the cut. No I didn't worry about getting shocked. It was fresh water not salt.

That took my little fancy handle way far better.

[Alan DuBoff]

Dave,

You can get 1095 spring steel from McMaster-Carr, but if you do that is but one piece to the puzzle. You will first need to figure out if you fold a brass back, or slot a back. You will also need some type of saw-nuts or split-nuts. You can get Chicago nuts at McMaster-Carr, or Tandy Leather Factory has some but you'll need to check the sizes.

You can use scraper blades as suggested, those will work. Or you can use an old saw blade as well. Leif Hanson has a great page for this (http://norsewoodsmith.com/node/68).

But you need to figure out how you will attach a back to the blade, if so, some folks use small saws without backs also...bending Alloy 260 brass will work for that, in the right size, see Leif's page.

The easiest way is to get a cheap crown gent's saw, cut the handle off, and add a handle to it. That will get you a blade that already has teeth shaped and take much of the hard work out of it. Here's one (http://www.softorchestra.com/woodworking/tools/saws/handsaws/galootaclaus_2005/) that I did that to a few years ago. That is the quickest and easiest way, but might not be original enough for you.

Cliff, would love to see your saw toothing machine, if you have pics, that sounds like an interesting project. I use a Foley.

Leif's page (http://norsewoodsmith.com/node/68) is about the best place to start, IMO.

[Michael Pilla]

All good info so far. McMaster is an excellent source for the spring steel and the brass. One more way to affix the brass back is to sandwich the spring steel in between two layers of brass to form the back. The brass is epoxied and screwed. TimHoff is a custom sawmaker who uses this technique. I have one of his dovetail saws and it's incredibly substantial. If we are allowed to post links to other forums I have an in-depth tutorial by Tim bookmarked.


Also, here is a link with some handle making info (http://www.xmission.com/~jry/ww/tools/backsaws/index.html) and a new website (http://www.backsaw.net/) devoted to the backsaw.


Michael

[Alan DuBoff]

Michael,

Yes, I didn't mention sandwiching with epoxy, but your correct, that is an excellent way for folks without a lot of tooling! ;)

[oak barrett]

good reading here



Making Saw Blades

by Tim Hoff


http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To_pages/TimHoff_MakingSawBlades.htm (http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To_pages/TimHoff_MakingSawBlades.htm)


Making Saw Handles

by Tim Hoff


http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To_pages/TimHoff_MakingSawHandles.htm





more relevant articles indexed here... search for the word 'saw'


http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To.htm (http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To.htm)





edit..
fixed it.. the links no longer point to a different forum

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Dave,

The success or otherwise depends on many things, but I would rank in order of importance.

1. Filing, this is where the rubber meets the road (so to speak) choosing the pitch / rake / fleam to suit the task and then executing it well is where it all comes together. If you already have some experience in this area you are off to a good start.

2. Design, once you have a handle profile you like, and feels comfortable, and make it with a suitable choice of timber, the hang angle needs to be right or you will strike problems later. Choose an existing design and tweak it would be my advice, you can get adventurous later. I have a selection of open and closed handle templates you can download here. http://www.backsaw.net

3. Construction of the Back.
There are a number of ways of making the back.
3.1. Folded. This requires that you find some Alloy 260 brass, otherwise you won't be able to fold it without cracking. (Don't ask how I know). I think it is called "half hard" or "cartridge brass" by some outlets. You then need to fold it straight and that might require a press depending on thickness.

3.2. Sandwich construction. Probably the easiest without specialised tooling
I have done this three different ways. The first is just drill 1/8 holes through the blade and sides and peen together with 1/8 brass rod.

Second, route a flat 1/2 the blade thickness on either half and then join using brass peened rods and solder.

Third, get some brass shim the same thickness as the blade and assemble as above. (saves having to route the sides).

The one sandwich method I haven't used is the glue method.

3.3 Get a Slitting saw. I just got a 20 thou slitting saw off ebay, and am now setting up some jigs to see it I can work out how best to use it. If I can get reasonable results I will put something up on the website.

I have been planning to write all this up properly for some time, maybe this will prompt me to get it done!.

Making the split nuts, just get some 1/2" brass rod drill and tap the center for 3/16 brass threaded rod. cut off slices of the brass rod the desired thickness and clean up on a disk sander or linisher. Then silver solder (or ca glue) to the threaded rod. Cut the screw slot with a hacksaw or dremel.

All of the above, really depends on what workshop facilities you can access to get the job done.

At the end, there is a real sense of accomplishment and satisfaction, It is worth the effort.

Regards
Ray

[Alan DuBoff]

Ray,

I once suggested to Mike Wenzloff that I would like to see a small half back saw that could be used for joinery. What I had pictured in my mind was similar to the 1750 saw pic'd on your page from the Davistown museum. That URL isn't valid unfortunately and I can't tell if that has a half back on it or not. Mike didn't seem to see the value in the idea, but I still do and think it could make a nice design. :rolleyes: Who knows, maybe I'll try to make one like I envisioned.

The circa 1700 saw is similar as well, albeit a tad different and not as specialized as I envisioned.

I've looked at your handle page, and some of the handles are useful for my taste, but I just wanted to comment that I didn't do a scientific study of any kind, but selected several of my favorite saws which I own when I was designing a handle of my own, at this link (http://www.softorchestra.com/woodworking/tools/saws/lambs-tongue/). While the "lamb's tongue" reference itself is not substantiated in any way, I like the term.;)

Phil Baker refers to that as the "carved base" in an article printed in The Chronicle of Early American Industries Association, Inc. back in March of 2006. There has been some discussion on Leif's blog about canted blades (http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/node/203), which I have posted some info/garbage *g*, and reference this same article from Phil Baker which has some info on it. You might find some of it interesting, or not, depending on your mileage. :rolleyes:

I like the graph paper for the handles, good idea.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Alan,

I have fixed that link. It should have been... http://www.davistownmuseum.org/toolSaws.html

On the subject of nomenclature, I think terms such as lamb's tongue probably come from elsewhere, and got re-used, just on shape alone it is apt. There is more than one school of thought on nomenclature, one is to only use terms that would have been used and understood by the toolmakers/craftsman of the time. I think that is a desirable goal, but difficult to achieve. The approach I am currently favoring is to go with common usage. Lamb's Tongue has gained currency through usage.

On the subject of canted blades, I did an article here:- http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=77

I like your website, I can see lots of interesting info there..

Regards
Ray

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff, would love to see your saw toothing machine, if you have pics, that sounds like an interesting project. I use a Foley.

Pics are on film in the camera in a cabinet.
I am so very slow about going to the developer

[Dave Lehnert]

WOW! Lots of good info. Great reading for everyone.

THANKS!

[Jeff Wittrock]

I had a cheap Stanley miter box saw (you know... the kind with the black plastic handle and the yellow box) which I had abused over the years. It was rusted and dull and ugly, so I didn't feel bad about experimenting with making my own saw by stealing it's blade and jointing off the original teeth. Maybe you can do the same. I'm sure you can still pick these up cheaply.

Cutting the teeth was much easier than I thought. I won't say they were pretty, but even with my poor skill, the saw cuts far better than it did before. I don't have a saw set, so the hardest part was setting the teeth with a punch and small hammer.

I would love to see others post pictures of there first attempts at making a saw. I will be brave at show a couple pictures of mine :o.

[Alan DuBoff]

Jeff,

This is the first saw I made, it was made from an 8" Crown gent's saw. I made it for Galootaclaus 2005, and gave it away as my gift. Haven't seen it since...

[Alan DuBoff]

Here's another one I made last year. This one I slotted the back, used a piece of 1095 spring steel, and the split-nuts were made by Johnny Kleso (a.k.a. rarebear). This one I still have and use. Will most likely end up giving it to my son. :D

[Ray Gardiner]

First attempts at slitting a brass back, I got a 0.020" slitting saw blade off ebay and an arbor to suit.
After much consideration, I eventually went with this setup on the drill press.

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/albums/userpics/S20092008277.jpg

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/albums/userpics/S20092008280.jpg

Setup is **VERY** time consuming, I must have fiddled around for ages to get it tracking straight, and in the middle
of the back but now that I know it's going to work, I need to come up with a way make it more robust and easier to setup.

More Pictures here:-

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=20

Regards
Ray

[Ray Gardiner]

Jeff,

This is the first saw I made, it was made from an 8" Crown gent's saw. I made it for Galootaclaus 2005, and gave it away as my gift. Haven't seen it since...

Hi Alan,

Unusual handle, how comfortable was it? Also what is that timber?

Regards
Ray

[Ray Gardiner]

Here's another one I made last year. This one I slotted the back, used a piece of 1095 spring steel, and the split-nuts were made by Johnny Kleso (a.k.a. rarebear). This one I still have and use. Will most likely end up giving it to my son. :D

Hi Alan,

I like the London pattern handle, how did you slot the back?

Regards
Ray

[Alan DuBoff]

Unusual handle, how comfortable was it? Also what is that timber?Very comfortable, the recipient seemed happy with it, but it was designed so that your finger was held in position as it felt comfortable to saw. Yes, it was different, and that is what allows us to create things that may work better and why I do things like that. The same reason I feel bronze is a better allow to use, that inlays in the handles is something people would pay extra for, inlaid gems and/or stones such as abalone, mother of pearl, or herringbone being options that people would like, even at a price. Sure, some of the saw makers are putting out tons of saws and they function well, are quality tools, and the results speak for themselves. I'm not looking to have exactly the same saws produced 200 years ago in all cases, I want unique tools that I build.;)

Handle on that was made of maple burl.

I like the London pattern handle, how did you slot the back?
That one was done on a Grizzly mini-mill, using a fixture that a friend helped me make on a Bridgeport and a HAAS CNC. It was my first time to use a CNC, he was a great help. Not bad getting help from a local high school kid that is now studying robotics at WPI back in Mass...;) He is barely older than my son, and he's taught me a tremendous amount about working metal, as well as lining me up with a friend of his that sold me an old South Bend 9A (came out of the Levi Strauss factory in SF when they closed it down).

I have a Nichols horizontal mill now, and have slotted some bronze since.

Here's a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpKznQ9EF5s), if you care to see my mill.

[Alan DuBoff]

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/albums/userpics/S20092008277.jpg

Ray,

Your slitting blade looks like it's one of the course tpi blades, I have some like that also, but found out that you need to cut at the right speed, and that might work better in your drill press. You need to calculate the cuts per second and/or rpms, to get the right about of cutting for the stock being cut. I have switched to finer tpi and it works better for me. I'm more careful about the blades I buy nowadays. My mill has much slower speeds than your drill press, not to mention the lack of stiffness on a drill press, but it will work as you have found out. I don't like wood fixtures, although Mike Wenzloff uses wood with HUGE success. He also uses a mini-mill which I believe to be a challenging machine without mods. Here's my mini-mill (http://www.softorchestra.com/metal/mini-mill/). Pretty simple initial setup using 1-2-3 blocks as the fixture with some table clamps, it worked, but this fixture (http://www.softorchestra.com/metal/jig/) was way better. Note how I ran into another problem on the mini-mill in the last picture, it required this modification (http://www.softorchestra.com/metal/air-shock/) to work around.

That blade is good for slitting around the handle, where the blade is inserted, I find it's helpful to do that, and then I just cut them with a handsaw in a vise, but preparing the handle like that allows for a clean kerf to help me keep the cut in the center. All of our mileage varies.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Alan,

I have plans to buy a small milling machine, seeing your grizzly at work has made me move it up to the top of the list. That Nichols horizontal mill looks pretty slick, the cutting speed is pretty impressive!.

Accuracy and rigidity is the problem with the drill press setup, (as you pointed out), but now I have an idea as to how it works, I will build a
better setup.

What TPI slitting blades are you using?

Regards
Ray

[Alan DuBoff]

Ray,

I personally am not too fond of the mini-mill, but it does work, and I give credit to folks who use them, I would have not thought you could use it for doing this, and several machinist friends of mine advised me against it, after all they do have plastic gears! They really need to be taken apart, have the cosmoline cleaned off of them, and oil/lubed properly. Then if you add the belt drive, they can be usable, but there is all types of limitations with them in doing a lot of machining...the low quality hand wheels and table screws, the speed to reposition the table, I always have to run the table from side to side to adjust my fixture, or have a difficult time getting the slotting saw in proper position...I guess it's a love/hate relationship with it for me. It is capable of doing some stuff, and it is capable to slot handsaw backs...I bought mine locally from a guy for $200 that used it to make prototypes out of plastic. He was milling small channels in plastic with 1/16", 3/64", 1/32" and similar sizes, so it didn't see a lot of use. They are what they are. A vertical mill is not the best for slotting, IMO, and the horizontal is much better for that purpose. The Nichols is a real mill, made for production work, and many of them were run 24x7, 7 days a week, for years on end...I'm not sure the mini-mill is even capable of running 24 hours.

They don't rate the saws by tpi actually, typically the amount of teeth for the circumference. The two pictured below are both .020".

Look at MSC, they have jewelers saws with high tpi, like this with 230 teeth on a 3" diameter:

(linky pic)
http://www1.mscdirect.com/ProductImages/0329008A-11.jpg (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMCTLG=00&PMAKA=03301207&partnerURL=http://catalogs.shoplocal.com/mscdirect/index.aspx%6Fpagename=shopmain%50circularid=13665% 50pagenumber=515%50mode=)

Opposed to this screw slotting saw that is 72 teeth for a 2 1/4" diameter:

(linky pic)
http://www1.mscdirect.com/ProductImages/0323008A-11.jpg (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMCTLG=00&PMAKA=03236205&partnerURL=http://catalogs.shoplocal.com/mscdirect/index.aspx%6Fpagename=shopmain%50circularid=13665% 50pagenumber=517%50mode=)

My Nichols has a 1" arbor, although arbors are pretty cheap on the used market, but a 3" blade will only provide 1" of cutting depth (less actually, because of the spacers), if you can get the arbor down to the workpiece. This is ok for saw backs, I will only go about 1/3 to 1/2 the width of the back, so 5/16" into a 3/4" width back, aprox. Again, all of our mileage varies. Maybe some of the professional saw makers can give you better data, I've only made a few saws.

Remember this is all relative also, you need to calculate the amount of teeth per the rpm of the blade in conjunction with the diameter of the blade to come up with the amount to cut, I don't have the formula off the top of my head. The mini-mill allows adjusting of 0-1700 rpm with factory plastic gears, but the belt conversion allows for 0-4300 rpm. If your patient the mini-mill is capable of a lot, but again, it is nothing like my Nichols. ;)

HTH,

[Alan DuBoff]

Ray,

Here's the Nichols slotting a piece of aluminum for a slotting fixture, just playing around here before I do the real fixutre, I have a longer 2.5" thick, 4" wide, 20" long piece of aluminum I will make my master slotting fixture with. I will counter bore the t-nut bolt nuts into the top so the arbor can get down to the surface. I have a Bridgeport vise on my Nichols, that vise will hold this fixture level. That's how I slotted the bronze. I originally needed to stack 2 of these together to get the proper clearance on the mini-mill, the head doesn't go to the table...again, you can jury rig this stuff up and it will work, it's not rocket science, but I don't often like to jury rig it if I can help it. We all work differently...metal working is a whole different world in itself, just like forging is as well, as-is leather working...you have to calculate speed vs. cut vs. rake vs. material being used, etc...similar to using a high angle plane on difficult grain, you need to use different rake on the cutters for the type of metal being used.

I know about a thimble full of what amounts to a sea of information.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Alan,

The one I have been looking at has horizontal and vertical spindles, not as nice and heavy duty as the Nichols, price is pretty good, and I hope capability is adequate for the projects I have in mind. In a previous life I designed and built embedded control systems (including some xyz positioning systems), and have the half baked idea that I will add some NC capabilites at some time in the future.


This one comes with digital readout, not shown in picture above. You can just see the horizontal spindle behind the cutting fluid nozzle. Only power feed on the X axis.

Regards
Ray

[Alan DuBoff]

Ray,

That's quite a bit more machine than a mini-mill. That would work fine for this stuff, most certainly. The mini-mill will handle it if one can tolerate using it.

BTW, on the back you pictured above, you actually don't need to, and will run into some problems, if you slot that deep.

That looks pretty dangerous to me. Did you just run it through like a router table with your hands?

If you were to clamp the back down properly, on a table, you might find that the blade will bind as the back will be clamped where you've slotted.

Good use of available resources though! It got your back slotted! You still have all your fingers, right? :eek:

One of my friends has a Bridgeport clone (Kent, USA...pretty nice machine) with DRO. We sliced a piece of 1/4" thick bronze in a couple passes. I don't know that my mini-mill would handle bronze at all, let alone a couple passes...That mill you pictured certainly will handle harder metals than brass.

In America we're fortunate to have a surplus of vintage machines, and I love the ones from the 40s (WWII era). Many of my machines are from the 40s, woodworking machines as well.

[Michael Pilla]

I'm intrigued by all this slitting saw talk. I don't have a mill but would love to try an .020 saw for starting the slot in handles. Seems like a drill press can be made to work with some effort. How about a router table with an adjustable speed router set to it's slowest setting? (probably 5000 rpm).

Just curious.

Michael

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Alan, Michael

It does look a bit scary, but it's running quite slow, around 60-80 rpm and I have backed off the belt tension, so in the event of a blade jam, it just spins. I push the brass through by hand until it gets too close to the blade and then use a push stick (actually another bit of brass that was just laying around)

I would say a table saw is several orders of magnitude more dangerous, that's not to say I am not careful and attentive.

The depth of the cut is way too deep on that first cut, I am thinking more of 3/8 or so would be sufficient. Although I am unclear as to what problems could be caused by cutting too deep.

Michael, I looked at the router table for a while before going with the drill press, the router table would work if you could slow it down sufficiently, and do it safely.

Here is the partially finished saw, I still have to polish the blade and cut the teeth.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/S_SheoakDT10.jpg

I get better pictures with the scanner rather than the phone. Here is a scanned image of the handle

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/SheoakDTHandle.jpg

The wood is Australian Sheoak, finished with shellac and wax (about 5 minutes ago!) hard stuff to work but very stable.

Next job is pull it apart, polish the blade, and cut some teeth.

Regards
Ray

[Mike K Wenzloff]

...Seems like a drill press can be made to work with some effort. How about a router table with an adjustable speed router set to it's slowest setting? (probably 5000 rpm).

Just curious.
Michael,

A router is incredibly too fast. You'll have pieces of blade flinging everywhere you don't want it too.

Ray, if you have an X-Y table you can use that to secure the brass to and crank it through. You will have to reposition the brass unless you have one to clamp down to the drill press table that has enough X travel. Repositioning the brass is no big deal.

General discussion. A drill press can be utilized. I would heartily recommend anyone doing this that the drill press used have a check that can be secured in the column by a drawbar or such. DPs are not really made for side-load and one can with side pressure cause the chuck to come loose and or fall out. No real big deal as regards safety perhaps. And it doesn't hurt the chuck. The blade may/will snap but I think that's about it.

Take care, Mike

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Nice saw, Ray! I do like that Sheoak.

Take care, Mike

[Ray Gardiner]

Michael,

A router is incredibly too fast. You'll have pieces of blade flinging everywhere you don't want it too.

Ray, if you have an X-Y table you can use that to secure the brass to and crank it through. You will have to reposition the brass unless you have one to clamp down to the drill press table that has enough X travel. Repositioning the brass is no big deal.

General discussion. A drill press can be utilized. I would heartily recommend anyone doing this that the drill press used have a check that can be secured in the column by a drawbar or such. DPs are not really made for side-load and one can with side pressure cause the chuck to come loose and or fall out. No real big deal as regards safety perhaps. And it doesn't hurt the chuck. The blade may/will snap but I think that's about it.

Take care, Mike

Hi Mike,

Good points, I thought about the arbor dropping out of the morse taper, and the supporting block has a hole cut in it that the bottom of the arbor sits on, so that it can't drop down, also means that once set up I can't change the height easily. The main aim in mucking about with this was to see if it would work. I'm not sure I would be rushing to recommend it to someone as best practice! :D

That sheoak has a beautiful feel to it, once you pick it up you don't want to put it down.

Regards
Ray

[Michael Pilla]

Lots of very helpful info, thanks guys.
Ray, that saw is beautiful!!


Michael

[Pedder Petersen]

Here is the partially finished saw, I still have to polish the blade and cut the teeth.

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/S_SheoakDT10.jpg

I get better pictures with the scanner rather than the phone. Here is a scanned image of the handle

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/SheoakDTHandle.jpg

Hi Ray,

that is nice, I love the double pin feature. I don't think that I'm telling you news: Disston used it for premium saws.

Cheers Pedder

:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Ray,

that is nice, I love the double pin feature. I don't think that I'm telling you news: Disston used it for premium saws.

Cheers Pedder

:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

Hi Pedder,

Good to see you got SMC working again, was it cookies?

As for the double nibs, I'm thinking of double bottom nibs next.
Pretty soon it will be all nibs, no handle..:)

Regards
Ray

[Pedder Petersen]

Good to see you got SMC working again, was it cookies?

I don't know? :rolleyes:



As for the double nibs, I'm thinking of double bottom nibs next.
Pretty soon it will be all nibs, no handle..:)



ever thought about triple nibs :D

Cheers Pedder

[Dave Lehnert]

Is there a jig or machine (new or old) made to cut the teeth in a hand saw?

[Cliff Ober]

I'm a bit late to the thread (web access back on tonight - finally!- after Ike) but I thought I'd add a bit...

I made a saw a few months back just to see if I could do it:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/C:%5CGraphics%5CCamera%20Images%5C080511%5CPICT162 4_adjusted_1024x768.jpghttp://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk42/cdober/TenonSawBocoteHandle2.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk42/cdober/TenonSawBocoteHandle4.jpg
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/C:%5CGraphics%5CCamera%20Images%5C080511%5CPICT162 8_adjusted_1024x768.jpg

The blade is a drywall mud knife purchased at the BORG specifically for the project and cut down a bit to size. It's good spring steel, and much cheaper than buying through McMaster-Carr, especially when you add shipping. The teeth are file cut at 14tpi rip, and it cuts very nicely.

The back is a lamination of two pieces of scrap brass and the steel blade. I didn't use epoxy, as there was no need. I clamped and drilled the three pieces for about a half dozen brass pins that were peened to lock the assembly together. After shaping it's super rigid, and the laminated nature of it doesn't show unless you look for it.

The handle is bocote, and is an amalgam of several shapes I found attractive. I drilled out most of the waste for the back's mortise and did final clean-up with chisels. The slot was cut by hand with one of Mike Wenzloff's gems :). The screws are from Lie Nielsen (yes, they will sell them, at least as part of a larger order), but you can also get screws from TFWW here:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=GT-DKIT.XX&Category_Code=

The shaping of the handle was much easier than I expected. Good rasps make a real difference! One of those that I used was also from TFWW; it's their curved model that's sold especially for handle shaping.

It was a very satisfying project, and is fun to use.

Good luck with your project!

Cliff

[Alan DuBoff]

Cliff,

Wonderful saw! Very resourceful use of your materials, it shows true craftsmanship! ;)

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Cliff,

Nice work, very crisp and clean, I have made backs using the same technique.

Congratulations on a fine job.

Regards
Ray

[David Keller NC]

Alan - In regards to your knowledge about mini-mills, you state that they have plastic gears in them and mediocre hand-screws, table ways, etc... Is this true of all of them, or just the Grizzly? I've been thinking about getting one of these smaller guys for some amount of tool-making, and was looking at the Proxxon. The idea of plastic gear trains, though, gives me the willies!

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan - In regards to your knowledge about mini-mills, you state that they have plastic gears in them and mediocre hand-screws, table ways, etc... Is this true of all of them, or just the Grizzly? I've been thinking about getting one of these smaller guys for some amount of tool-making, and was looking at the Proxxon. The idea of plastic gear trains, though, gives me the willies!
David,

As far as I know, all the X2 mini-mills are built the same, the one difference is the spindle, some have R8 and others have the MT3. The R8 is preferred as it will use the same tooling as the Bridgeport, for instance, and those are like candy on the used market...however you really don't need too much tooling and you can get collets and such for MT3 easily. MT3 has one advantage of being in some SouthBend spindles though.

The belt drive kit adapts to the top, and has 2 speeds, it's a fairly simple modification that helps it a lot. All of the X2 mini-mills (Harbor Freight, Grizzly, MicroMark, etc...) are pretty much the same. My comments about the hand wheel and/or table screws is that they are not very heavy duty, and require some patience, but a good cleaning and some grease will go a long way...still moving the table back and forth to work on the fixture can be painful...they're a bit finicky, IMO, calibrating the columm so it's workable can be a test of patience also. Look for them used on craigslist, I picked mine up for $200, but then had to make a few mods, I probably have about $400 in just the machine without any tooling, but I don't have too much tooling for it. You do need some clamps and such.

My personal opinion is that a small Sherline or Taig would produce better results. I find the Taig pretty solid, the kid who helped me mill my fixture has one that is CNC'd that he did a lot of robotics parts with, for the FIRST competitions he used to enter with his high school.

The X2 mini-mill is popular to CNC, but parts to do so will run about $1,000. I have seen a Proxxon lathe, but not a mini-drill. Quality seems good, much better than the Seig (the factory the mini-mills are made in, back in Shanghai or somewhere). Ray even used a drill press! So, the answers are out there...;)

A simple setup on the X2 mini-mill using a home built wood fixture would work fine for slotting backs. Mike Wenzloff used to use that setup, and what gave me the idea to use a mini-mill. Most of the machinist friends I have met frown on them, and tried to discourage me from it due to their limitations, but it depends on what you want, I would say it works out well for folks and mine is pretty accurate now. I attribute Mike's success with the mini-mill due to his craftsmanship and skills, I think he could use a hacksaw to slot brass if he needed to... (my approach is obviously different, and my lack of skills don't help:o)

The epoxy/pins or even just peened pins like you did works well also...Tim Hoffman makes xlnt saws that way.

If you have the space, a vintage mill will works good, Burke, Atlas, and a couple others made bench top horiztontal mills. Watchmakers like them. Horizontal mills work better for this task, IMO, and are easier to work with in many cases. Burke had a model with autofeed. I'm a big fan of vintage machinery, especially from the 40s. The Nichols weighs about 1200#, so size/weight/power is a consideration (they run on 3-phase).

Lastly, check out your local community college and see if they have any courses or shop you can use, a Bridgeport would be a good mill to slot backs on...they are common in colleges, as are lathes to turn split-nuts if you venture into that.

HTH,

[Cliff Ober]

Cliff,

Wonderful saw! Very resourceful use of your materials, it shows true craftsmanship! ;)
Thanks for the comments on the saw Alan, they're much appreciated.

Cliff

[Cliff Ober]

Hi Cliff,

Nice work, very crisp and clean, I have made backs using the same technique.

Congratulations on a fine job.

Regards
Ray
Thanks Ray,

The more info that gets out there on how to do these things, the more folks will try it and really learn how to make things. Too much willingness to make or do things for one's self has been lost with the emphasis on disposable products and high-tech toys. People have forgotten (or never learned) how much satisfaction there is in creating.

Cliff

[David Keller NC]

Thanks for the extensive info - it'd have taken a lot of reading on the net to figure all of this out. I was suspicious of the cheap price of the shop fox/grizzly/harbor freight mini mills, so that's why I was checking out the Proxxon. I'd much rather pay an extra grand in initial outlay than get something that's cheap (and I don't mean in dollar terms).

My purpose for this machine is a bit off-topic for this thread. I want to make some infill planes, and getting a consistent mouth in a bevel-up mitre plane is really difficult with hand files. I've had some success, but it's a bit of crap shoot as to whether I succeed or have to junk the part and get another piece of steel. A small mill, I think, would vastly improve my success, as well as let my mill off the excess from dovetailing the steel together without using a grinder (which is hairy after you've just spent 50+ hours on an infill shell!)

The idea of a used machine appeals to me, though I'd prefer to avoid a 3-phase one. Phase converters are available, of course, but I'd rather avoid the complication if I can find a 220V single phase.

Thanks again

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Any of the lightweight mills will not do well for what you want, David. That goes for the Proxxon. That is not to say they cannot be made to work. But mass and better machining of the ways will make a dramatic improvement in work holding and inevitable chatter for the heavy cuts you likely will be making.

I wouldn't hesitate to use either my HF or Griz mini-mills to do an infill--though I would still make an infill by hand. I also wouldn't hesitate to file a mouth or sand and linish the sides, either. There will likely be finish work with files including tuning the mouth unless you get real good using a real good mill. And you will be using the mill to build your fixtures. The fixtures will only be as good as both the mill itself and your ability to operate it.

Good luck. I am certain the experience will enrich you in ways not too obvious at first. The thinking through the issues will will come to face have broad application. I know the more challenges I find myself facing have broader application. And the actively being creative is only a positive thing.

Take care, Mike

[David Keller NC]

Mike - I've made a couple of infills so far the "Wayne Anderson Way" - i.e., a peining block, hammers, files, and wooden holding blocks. It seemed to work quite well for a bevel-down plane, as the mouth was a good 1/4" wide or so, and it was easy to fit needle and warding files into it to get a nice, consistent bed angle and remove any curves from the drilling operation to waste out the majority of the metal.

My trouble began on a bevel-up plane. For a tight mouth on one of these, the mouth is only about 1/32nd of an inch wide. I attempted the two-piece sole option that gets you access to the mouth which gets closed up when the two sole pieces are tenoned together. I found out very quickly that it's really tough to get those tenons to line up with each other across the width of the plane. My thought is that with a milling machine, I could cut the mouth on the other side of a one-piece sole with only about 1/64th of the end-mill sticking through the bottom. Obviously, this solution will require an angled holding jig, or a 3-axis mill.

Of course, the interesting thing about all of this is that milling machines didn't exist in the 1830s when Robert Towell was making and selling iron miter planes. Kinda wonder how he did it, but they are so rare and valuable on the collector's market (think $4,000 and up for one in original condition), that I don't think I'll get the chance to examine one and measure the mouth opening.

[Alan DuBoff]

I wouldn't hesitate to use either my HF or Griz mini-mills to do an infill--though I would still make an infill by hand.
Curious Mike, how would you jig/fixture material to do that on a mini-mill?

I've pondered that same thought, and in the end I keep coming back to the horizontal mill, with an angle vise, using a slitting saw to cut each side of the dovetail, and cleaning the material out with similar, the Nichols for instance could do that pretty quickly.

Since small end mills are not very deep, you would need one deep enough on a vertical mill to to even be able to cut through aprox. 1/4" thick material. I have not seen thin end mills where the cutter is deep enough for say a 1/64" end mill. If using an arbor on a slitting saw in the small vertical head of the mini-mill, how you could fixture that so you could even mill the side of an infill?

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance here, but aside from the lack of actual stiffness to cut the bottom piece (if harder than brass steel is used), I just can't think of a decent way to do that.

One could brute force it on a Bridgeport, but that would take a decent amount of time to hog that much material out.

If I only owned a mini-mill, I would end up doing much of the work by hand, cleaning up with the mini-mill, which could be done, but I would probably just end up filing it by hand as well.

Also, cleaning up with a mini-mill on tool steel if that was used for the bottom piece, would be a slow effort, IMO, requiring very slight cuts and higher spindle speed to try that.

I keep coming to the conclusion that it is just not the right tool for that particular task. A horizontal mill seems like a much better tool for that task.

Again, through ignorance, I might be missing something, but I think you would almost have no choice and HAVE to do it by hand if one only had a mini-mill. Not that doing it by hand can't be done...it can. And this is not to mention that you could not mill the corners of the dovetails cleanly, and they would also have to be done by hand to get a tight fit. That would also warrant hand work also. I don't think you could mill the dovetail portions, but it could also be my lack of knowledge with the mini-mill or any other vertical mill for that matter.

[David Keller NC]

Alan - What I was referring about cleaning up an infill shell has more to do with milling off the "extra" material that's left after peining the dovetails closed. It's interesting to see how the pros do this - Karl Holtey does it with an industrial mill and an aluminum jig to hold the shell up-side down. Konrad Sauer does it with a grinder, then by lapping.

I wasn't at all comfortable with taking the shell to the grinder (no doubt Konrad's got a lot more practice with this!), so I did it with a coarse mill bastard file and then lapping on 150 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper.

That said, though, I'd think that milling off the excess would make the lapping go a heck of a lot faster - my arms were rubber at the end of that day...

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan - What I was referring about cleaning up an infill shell has more to do with milling off the "extra" material that's left after peining the dovetails closed. This could be done on the mini-mill, the belt drive kit would help as you could get higher rpm when taking a final light pass.

Probably a lot of area to cover on a mini-mill though, and the table only has approx 9" X travel, so you might need to reposition for a larger plane if the 9" won't cover the area you need to mill.

I would think that Philip Marcou would be a good person to get advice from, he showed a grinder setup that he uses in a recent thread. His planes are beautiful.;)

[David Keller NC]

Actually, you've already scared me off of a mini-mill. The idea of plastic gears in almost any machine except maybe a $10 cordless shaver at Target doesn't make me too happy. ;-)

From the standpoint of "new" and "affordable", it looks like ShopFox has pretty decent line-up of mills, small to huge. That said, though, the prices seem too low, and I'm a big believer in "you get at most what you pay for". Your suggestion of an antique seems like a better bet. Considering that machining as a viable business in the United States has just about given up the ghost compared to the 1960's, I'm betting I could come up with something that would've been made when quality instead of price was king.

Reasonably simple re-hab to an old machine is no big deal to me, as I've done my share of engine rebuilds and other mechanic tasks that require close-tolerance work. The only drawback is size and weight - a big Cincinnati or Bridgeport is out of the question because my shop is in a basement, and the only outside access is down a long, sloping, gravel driveway. It wasn't much fun getting a DJ-20 into it, and anything bigger/heavier is going to be a real challenge.

[Alan DuBoff]

David,

I have been pretty generous with my comments on the mini-mill in this thread, they are what they are, IMO, but I am not a big fan actually. But after doing the mods on mine, it's not too bad, and I have used it to do a few things, like mill the t-slot nut for my South Bend lathe tool post, it worked for that, and I have used it to square the ends of brass, it works well for that.

Like anything, it's all a matter of having the right tooling for what you need to do, so if you have a fixture to slot backs (be it wood or metal), they can function.

You might want to look into the Nichols, you can find them around and they are heavy duty machines, made for production work. There is a lot of tooling around also, as well as a vertical head option. I have a vertical head, but need to fabricate the ring adapter that holds it to the spindle. My thought was that I could probably get rid of my mini-mill once I have the vertical head operational, but for really light stuff the mini-mill is fine. The Nichols takes about 2'x3' of floor space, so it is compact, but it weighs about 1200#, so it is not light, and it is 3-phase with a Master Gear motor, which has a gearbox in it that steps it down to 350, 780, or 910 RPM, and there was even pneumatic options, for power feed, a pretty advanced mill in it's day. They are good for toolmaking, and the toolroom model has a larger table with a screw, hench how the pneumatics were able to operate.

I'm getting a toolroom table, although I have a long toolroom style table, mine is a bit narrow and has only 1 slot down the center, still works just fine and gives me about 19" of X travel.

There is kind of a cult for this mill, and several of us have bought them and parted them out. A friend of mine just got a toolroom model out of Stockton on ebay for $180. A guy back east got one recently for $2 with some tooling...this is a sleeper mill, very useful, not very desirable in the modern shop, they all want CNCs for the most part. There's some info and pics on the U.K. lathe site (http://www.lathes.co.uk/nichols/). There was one is either NC or GA not long ago, but we didn't know anyone close enough, so we didn't do a group buy...but I don't really need any parts anymore, mine is pretty much together. I'm trading a Foley retoother and some ratchets for the toolroom table, I have 3 Foley retoothers, the most recent is new-in-box that a blacksmith friend found for me, for $25. I didn't even really want it as I have 2 others, but the retoother is the most valuable Foley equipment, IMO.:) As always, your mileage may vary.