1st pens, Not happy with them help!

[Brian Brown]

These two Euros are my first pens. The walnut was first, and I saw some cracking at the tip but ignored it. It caused a chunk to tear out. I tried to fix it, and it looks terrible. The second is blood wood, and while I am mostly happy with it, the center band doesn't line up well. I can't figure out if it is because the barrell is not exactly square, or something else. I didn't use a pen mill, I don't plan to do a lot of pens, so I tried to be cheap and go without the pen mill. I squared the blank on a disc sander, but realized later that if the hole through the center wasn't exactly parallel to the wall of the blank, the blank would not be square. @$&)%#!

I set up the mandrel as Ken Fitzgerald showed me. When I set up the mandrel the tailstock was just barely touching the mandrel, and it squealed loudly. I tightened the tailstock slightly, (just enough to make the squeal stop) and then turned the pen. If I overtightened it, could this cause the mandrel to swing like a jump rope causing the problem?

So is the cause of the bad fit:

A. An un-square blank
B. Jump-ropeing
C. A poor quality pen kit (came from Woodcraft, should be good)
D. Not knowing what the heck I am doing
E. Something entirely different

I also used CA finish on the walnut, and it wasn't as smooth and glossy as the finish when Joel Sauder taught me to put it on. I ordered some Micro mesh today. And yes, I put a crowbar in my wallet, and got a pen mill. :o Also, SWMBO saw me trying to sharpen my skew and bowl gouge by hand. She said it looked like an old woman swinging at a bat with a broom handle!:eek: She is so helpful. :rolleyes: She made up for it by insisting that I order a Wolverine system. :D Gotta love her!

[Robert McGowen]

So is the cause of the bad fit:

A. An un-square blank
B. Jump-ropeing
C. A poor quality pen kit (came from Woodcraft, should be good)
D. Not knowing what the heck I am doing
E. Something entirely different


I am going with either A, B, D, or E. :rolleyes:

My guess is that it is A. The squareness of the blank to the tube is absolutely critical. I don't see how people square it up without a pen mill. Compared to throwing a finished pen away, they are cheap and easy to use.

If it was B, you have to crank down fairly hard and you would probably realize that you had done it.

It probably is not C and your thread implies that D comes into play.

It could be E and your tenon is to long, if I remember how to do euros still.

Good luck. I always thought that multiple choice tests were easy. :rolleyes:;)

[David Drickhamer]

I've turned quite a few pens including Euros.

I don't believe that unless your going to do a lot of pens, you can get by without a pen mill. You can square them up on the lathe. The only ends that need to be square on a Euro are by the clip and the tip, everything else is hidden. I believe the problem you have by the band is that the shoulder for the tenon is not square. Try undercutting it slightly with a small skew. That should solve the problem. Other than that, nice looking pens.

[Don Carter]

I would say A and the tenon is probably too long or not 90 degree shoulder. Either way my first pens were not as good as yours. Use the pen mill and keep on turning.
All the best.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I would have to say A or B. I bring my tailstock up till it is good and snug. Then tighten the tailstock screw to hold it there so it doesn't unscrew away from the mandrel. I have found if you don't have the tailstock tight against the mandrel it can move around on the end which causes a uneven cut. You would have to crank on your tailstock pretty hard to get it to jump rope. Also if I remember right on Euro's you have a bushing on a bushing. I use a parting tool to take down pen blank till this second bushing just slips over it. I then take my skew taking the blank down even with this bushing. I use a disc sander to sqaure the ends of my pens. I put a piece of birch plywood on my sliding mitre so that it is only 1/8" away from the disk. I then took a machinist square and squared the mitre to the disc. Square ends all the time. The only tool I use on pens is my big Lacer skew.

Those a nice looking pens and must say better than my first.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Brian,

Nice first pens. A lot nicer than my first.

The first thought that comes to my mind is that the pen mell will remedy part of the problem.

If you over tension the mandrel you can get a "skipping rope" effect. What I've been doing is bringing my tailstock up close until the live center is within 1/16" and then with the lathe turning the mandrel at a slow speed, I take one finger on my left hand and apply a very slight pressure on the live center in the tailstock. Then slowly I crank in the live center until the live center is spinning at the same speed as the mandrel with a slight resistance applied by the finger on the left hand. I hope this makes sense.


Also, I found another very easy CA finishing routine you might want to try. I really like it...it's quick, easy and produces a nice finish.... it's as easy as it is shown in Russ Fairfield's video http://content.penturners.org/video/PenFin-Clip2-CAblo.wmv

Good luck!

[scott schmidt grasshopper]

here is one thing I was told each time before you turn be sure the bushings are the same diameter as the kit. sometimes the parts of the kit will not be the same as "standard" bushings even though they should be. good luck.

[David Cramer]

Hello Brian

I am far from a professional Brian and just started turning acrylics on July 31st. I've now done 23 pens.

I use a delta sanding disk to square up the ends. When you sand enough to hit the brass tube, you'll hear a different noise. I verified with a square that I'm at 90 degrees.

I try to make 6 at a time and the sanding disk works great. I set up my sanding platform 90 degrees to the disk and the sliding miter gauge is also 90 degrees to the disk. I can't explain why, but I'm not a big fan of the pen mill and do just as accurate work with the disk sander, and quicker too:)!

I use a parting tool for the tenon and verify that it's flush by sliding over the bushing and making sure there's no gap before I take it off. I use a 40 dollar roughing gouge to take the pen down to the desired size. I can turn it in about 8 minutes with a smooth finish (yes, I'm anal and timed it for the heck of it). Then I sand and finish with 12,000 micro mesh.

For what it's worth, I truly think your pens are outstanding. Don't sweat the small stuff, you're doing fine. That is one small detail that you can easily solve.

I am not in the class of some of the heavy hitters in the turners forum and I won't pretend to be. Some of the world's best turners visit this site and the advice they give is awesome!:) Can you say Malcolm or Grumbine?

But this humble woodworkers advice is to use a parting tool, sneak up on it, try to hold the tool close to 90 degrees to the spinning pen, and check on it a few times before taking off too much. Again, I took a class a little over a month and a half ago and I have no better skills than you have (trust me). Keep at it Brian, you're doing fine:).

David

[RL Johnson]

I would say E, if you tighten the brass nut too tight it too will bow the mandrel. You could also have a bent mandrel. If you have the morse taper type of mandrel unscrew the rod and roll it across a flat surface to see if it is bent, sort of like checking your pool cue when hustling your buddies.
Concerning your CA finish, how many coats did you put on it? Most down here put at least three coats. Best of luck, you will get better on your pen making just keep plugging away.

[Belton Garvin]

I think all of the above replies are possibilities. I had similar problem with a few of my first pens. The biggest issue was that it wasn't consistent so it was hard to troubleshoot. Here are a few of the things I found.

1. The Live center that came with my Jet 1220 doesn't have a 60 degree point. It has a steeper angle that doesn't seat into the end of the mandrel properly. It can also break off the tip of the live center and weld it into the end of the mandrel. Solution - pick up an aftermarket 60 degree live center.

2. Tightening the nut on the mandrel before bringing up tailstock. Not sure how this affects the mandrel but it does. Solution - Bring up the tailstock like Ken said and then go back and finger tighten the nut on the mandrel. Start your cuts - if your blanks spins - stop the lathe and tighten just a little more until you can cut smoothly.

3. Once the mandrel is overtightened it may not return to straight and also your bushings may be out of round if you weren't careful sanding. So even if you get your problem figured out you may not know it. Solution - Replacement rods for the mandrel I have are only 2.99 at Woodcraft. I went through a couple before I figured out all the things I was doing wrong. I also wasn't real careful sanding and probably sanded my bushings out of round in the process.

4. Not milling the ends square to the tube. Pen mills or a jig are almost a necessary evil. I tried the sanding disk method like David and had quite a bit of success...but there is a downside to that method. You have to have a square side to reference ...and the barrel must be parallel to that side. I am rarely successful at drilling a blank that enters and exits the blank centered on both ends. Solution - Pen mill or build a jig that you mount the blank with tubes already inserted that can maintain the blank at a 90 degree angle to the sanding disk with reference to the tube not the outside of the blank. This method works real well. There is a post on here somewhere showing a jig someone built that works great.

I have been turning for about a year now and all of these are fresh in my mind as I went through each of them. You pens look really good and you are on the right path for success. Hope this helps out.

Bear

[Paul Downes]

Hey Brian, those are O.K. for first pens. One way to make a cheap pen blank mill is to find a drill that just fits into the brass tube and put a stop collar on the drill bit with the shank end extended out as far as possible. Chuck the drill up backwards and stick a small PSA sanding disk on the collar. I use the sanding disks that have the dust holes in them and cut out a small disk with one of the holes somewhat centered. Some woods don't mill very good with a cutter anyway and I sand them square this way. You can make a stop collar with a piece of steel round stock. Just drill the hole through square and then drill and tap a set screw in it @ 90 degrees. It doesn't even have to be steel you can square up a piece of round nylon on the lathe and drill a hole through it with your tail stock.

[Greg Ketell]

I've turned almost a hundred pens and very little else so I know pens. ;-)

Your second picture clearly shows that your mandrel was not straight. An "unsquare blank" would not cause the uneven turning on either side of the tube. Only wobble will cause that. Whether you over tightened the blank (unlikely based on your description) or the mandrel was just bent to start or the morse taper portion of the mandrel was poorly made (I've had that on several mandrels), something is causing your wood center to wobble.

Many of us who have gotten very serious about making quality pens have moved away from using mandrels at all. Just use a live center and a dead center and chuck your blank (1/2 at a time) between bushings between the centers. Makes for MUCH better pens. Don't look for perfect if you are using the manufacturers bushings, though. Their tolerances are pretty lousy so you often get bushings that are either too loose or out of round in their own right. Sadly, due to flooding during a hurricane last year, the guy who was making super high quality bushings is no longer doing so (he is too busy trying to rebuild a house/shop that had water up to the eves).

Many people actually prefer using a sanding disk to square up the ends of pen blanks because they are far less prone to chipping from sanding than from milling. But you have to have the blank mounted on a shaft through the tube. So just make a jig that you can square up on your sanding table that has a 7mm shaft, slide the blank on it, turn on the sander, slide the blank forward to start sanding, rotate to ensure squareness.

GK

[Sean Sanger]

I know this thread has been dead for a while, but I found it when I started to have a similar problem. Reading the others idea's helped but did not solve my problem. My problem was two fold.

1. A small piece of sawdust got inbetween my MT2 and the spindle which was the majority of the wobble.

2. The black oxide finish on my mandrels MT2 end had a wear mark into it. I chucked up the threaded end in a cordless drill and lightly sanded the black oxide finish off the MT2 taper with 320 sand paper. This took away the last little bit of wobble.

I will now clean these two mating surfaces religiously. And may try turning between centers. Hope this helps someone.

[Keith Christopher]

I use a delta sanding disk to square up the ends. When you sand enough to hit the brass tube, you'll hear a different noise. I verified with a square that I'm at 90 degrees.



This is how I do it, I haven't used a milll in quite some time. I made a sled for my disc sander with a fixed 90'deg and 45deg on it. I think it is MUCH easier and allows me to creep up on the perfect flush.

Also remember if your tools are dull, you will have to apply more force to get a cut, this can often cause flexing. Also if your holes drilled for the pen tubes are even slightly larger this will cause the wood be 'off' on one side though not by much. Be sure and take care when drilling. sometimes the travel on the drill press is not enough and you crank up the platform and the hole widens slightly. This will most certainly cause a non-flush edge with the pen parts.

Also not centering the hole will not cause this problem as it turns it will true up. might spin wobbly at first but it will end up turning true if your lathe is turning true. if you could have seen how the tube in the water buffalo horn pen I turned was off to one side (I HATE drilling round blanks. :) ) and it was trued up when done as there was enough material. I try to keep them centered but sometimes they're a little off. I invested in a custom built pen blank vise and it was worth EVERY penny. all 8300 of 'em :)