Hand planing & sanding

[Greg Morrison]

Super easy / dumb question from a hand plane rookie.

Is it true that the surface of a hand planed board does not need to be sanded and is in fact better then a sanded board (that is considering the quality of plane and the user). ?

[Don C Peterson]

Yes and No...and the answer depends on a couple of factors.

First and foremost is your preference, just how smooth do you want your surface to be? While I like the look and feel of a hand planed surface, sanding can almost always make for a more uniform surface (if done skillfully). I'm talking sanding blocks here not the dust spitting ROS monster. Hand planes, even when you take very thin shavings with a really sharp plane will leave a bit of a scalloped surface, assuming you are using a cambered iron. Sanding or scraping can reduce or eliminate that altogether.

At some point you are likely to encounter a piece of wood that defies your best efforts at planing without tearout, maybe you don't have the skill in sharpening or the fine touch required, or maybe you just don't have the right plane to get it right, sanding can usually do the job.

Finally there are some places you just can't get a plane...

My preference is to hand plane the surface and not have the mess and bother of sanding. I have cut down the use of sandpaper dramatically as my plane skills and collection have grown to include things like spokeshaves. But as much as I'd like to eliminate sanding entirely from my work, I can't, and I have yet to talk to anybody who has.

[Robert Rozaieski]

It certainly can be the finished surface. In most of my pieces, flat planed areas like case sides, shelves and drawer front, are typically finished after the try or smooth plane, depending on the surface. I typically don't sand these surfaces.

For cross grain planed areas like the ends of a table top or raised panel that have been molded with planes, a little sanding is usually required for the softer wood varieties like pine and poplar or the open pored hardwoods like oak and ash. These varieties do not respond well to cross grain planing. Also, I've not had good luck scraping pine. Maybe it's just me but pine doesn't scrape very well. For dense tight grained hardwoods like cherry, walnut or maple, if your molding plane irons are real sharp and you take real light cuts, you may be able to get away without sanding or with just a light scraping.

[Greg Morrison]

I like the idea of cutting down sand paper use. I'm assuming that overtime, with the money you would have spent on sandpaper, your planes will be paid for.

If one can afford it, do you suggest going with Lie Nielsen ? Or can you get something just as good for a lot less money ?

Thanks Don

[Robert Rozaieski]

If one can afford it, do you suggest going with Lie Nielsen ? Or can you get something just as good for a lot less money ?

It depends on the work you want to put into the tool. You can get just as good a surface from a $1 woodie as a LN, but it may take more setup and tuning to get the woodie to that level (unless you buy a new C&W, but that ain't $1 :D). The LN will work right out of the box with just a little honing.

While I prefer old tools to new ones, I don't spend a lot of time on tuning and futzing with them. I mostly spend my time getting the iron real sharp. A razor sharp iron will get you most of the way, the additional tuning will make additional improvements but you do get to a point of dimishing returns. It all depends on how picky you are and what your goals are. Do you want to spend your time making thinner and thinner shavings (which are over rated for the majority of applications in my opinion) or would you rather make stuff. I'm in the latter camp ;).

Bob

[harry strasil]

Plane then scrape, with sandpaper no matter how fine, think Scratches, Sandpaper does level things out, but the reason for so many different grits is to try and get the scratches to near invisible. After Scraping, some old timers would burnish with a scrap of Hardwood, (Rub the surface with some pressure and briskly), which gives a more or less partly glossy surface, and when you put on the finish if it looks an inch thick, as there are no minute scratches under the finish to diffuse the light and it will reflect back from the burnished surface.

FWIW

Old Rule of Thumb is never use an edge tool on something after it has been sanded as the particles have a tendency to break off in the surface.

[Don C Peterson]

I like the idea of cutting down sand paper use. I'm assuming that overtime, with the money you would have spent on sandpaper, your planes will be paid for.

If one can afford it, do you suggest going with Lie Nielsen ? Or can you get something just as good for a lot less money ?

Thanks Don

Now the debate REALLY begins...

I personally have a mix of LN and older planes (mostly LN). I like the pride of ownership and appreciate the fine craftsmanship of the LN planes. I also like the idea of supporting a company like LN that has done so much to revive hand tool use and knowledge. On the other hand I enjoy feeling of being connected to the past that using an old tool brings too.

I tend to make my tool purchases when I need the tool, so I go down to my local Woodcraft and buy what I need, when I need it rather than spending a lot of time on weekends rust hunting.

You cannot go wrong buying from LN or LV they both stand behind their tools and provide first class customer service and will do their level best to make sure you are happy with your purchase. But it does come at a price.

In the end though, a LN or LV plane isn't going to perform significantly better than a well tuned older plane.

It's all a matter of your priorities.

[Bill Moser]

Greg - Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're looking for an excuse to get into hand planes, and I'm all for it! I don't use much sand paper on planed surfaces myself. On end grain , I might use 400 or 600 grit to burnish it and get a nice glassy look, but otherwise I use (powdered) pumice and rottenstone after planing (see LV's website). I agree with Don, you don't need an LV or LN plane to get the job done, Stanley baileys are cheap enough, and clones even cheaper. But there are major issues: which planes do I need, how (why, when, in what order) to I apply these to my work piece. How do I know if the particular one I see on my favorite auction site is worth buying, if I do buy it and it doesn't work right, it it the tool or is it me? Even if you get everything right when it comes to buying the right tool, and by some miracle, igure out houw to use them right away, you'll need to pick up some sharpening tools and skills to keep then working well. I would go so far as to say that planing and sharpening plane blades are complementary skills, can't do one well without doing the other well. And this gets you into the wonderful world of sharpening... Yikes, I'm starting to scare myself! Trading sandpaper for planes is probably not a cost-saving move, but its worth it.

[Wilbur Pan]

Here's a picture of me using a Japanese saw that my 5 year old boy took.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3283/2526442646_a4f1584f37.jpg

Note that you can see the reflection of the flash off the saw on the poplar beam that I'm using as my bench. I planed that surface.

[edit: forgot to add] I forgot to say that there's no finish on that beam -- it's bare wood.

[Joe Cunningham]

Card scrapers really leave a beautiful surface after a smoother.

I got all my Stanley 'Bailey' planes (two each, #4, 5 and 7) for less than the price of a single new LN (granted, likely a better design). None needed much work to get working well. I did swap out one original blade for a Hock iron on my smoother.

I do have two LN planes, a skew block plane and scrub plane. The scrub plane was about the same price as an old Stanley (a little more), so to me it made little sense to buy the old tool.

About all I use sandpaper for is in the finishing process for leveling the surface prior to rubbing out.

[Will Blick]

As a newb, you opened pandoras box :-) As you can tell, the number of variables are many, so never a clear cut answer to your question, as for new/old planes.... I agree with the above poster.... you can "usually" turn any old plane into a winner with enough work....however, I like the versatility of the LV BU planes which offer much more options....but then, budget comes into play...so you will find your way...

I like the idea of plane than scrape....... I am adapting this myself....the nice thing about scraping is..... if you control the scraper well enough, you can remove the track marks, or scallops caused by a planer....

[John Sanford]

As noted, most folks use both. The Normites generally use sandpaper primarily and planes as backups, the Neanderbubbas just the opposite.

As to which planes to get, both the Lee Valley Veritas planes and the Lie-Nielsen planes are top notch new planes. There are other new ones out there as well, of varying qualities, ranging from the superb and expensive output of the "boutique" craftsmen, to the TSOs found at Harbor Freight and the $1 Tool Sale. Your best bet for low grief and little time is to go with a LV or LN plane. Easy to find, requires nothing but honing, great customer service. Downside of course is higher cost than a yardsale find or HF Tool Shaped Object.

The whole used tool thing can be iffy. For me, living here in Las Vegas, its pretty much a non-starter. Most folks who had vintage handtools worth picking up unloaded them before moving here. Which means I either have to go to the 'Net or otherwise get them from outtatown dealers. It's not worth the time and hassle for me to try hunting down vintage iron, I'd rather spend my weekends in the shop. For those who enjoy the hunt, or who live in target rich environments, the equation can certainly be different, as many a gloat on here will confirm.

[Victor Stearns]

I am on the page of using planes and scrappers. While I am still in the process of building up my arsenal of planes, I do revert back to the ROS. I am on the hunt for a LV scraper plane. I think that once my skills improve the ROS may not see much action.
Good Luck
Victor

[Brian Kent]

There is a learning curve on hand planes. That's true with LV and LN also, though they make it easier. I am on my smoothing quest right now to make planes that take away most of the need or sanding.

I do have an old #4 that works well now, a couple of Krenov-style planes, and an infill that I made from a Stanley #4 body. I am learning how to get a better than sanded finish without as much need for corrections afterwards with the ROS and sandblocks.

There is a lot to learn with any plane but the results (and the learning itself) are so rewarding.

[Joel Goodman]

I have old Stanleys, LN and ECE and if you have the $ the LN 62 BU jack or the LV model is a good place to start. The BU are less fussy and are great planes. For an old Stanley 4 or 5 I have had good luck with "sydnassloot" as a dealer.