FELDER help/advice

[Jeremy Rayburn]

I finally decided to bite the bullet and put a down payment on a FELDER KF500 saw/shaper at the end of July. Instead of saving the entire amount and paying at once, I let me rep Carl Knapp talk me into just putting it on "layaway". Seemed like a good idea, since I had almost a year before the entire balance was due.

However, in August, my first child was born premature. Then, being that I live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, I took a direct hit from Hurricane Gustav, and Hurricane Ike didn't do me any favors with the tree from Gustav still in my house. With a 5% hurricane deductible on a $260,000 house, it ate up my FELDER money. I tried contacting FELDER to see if I could get any kind of refund for my deposit after my baby was born, and was told there was nothing they could do.

I've contacted them again since the storms, and haven't even gotten a response. I can understand if they have a no refunds policy, but I've even tried to see about a gift certificate, or something I can transfer to another person so they don't lose a dime, still no response.

So besides giving me a forum to vent, I am searching for anyone who knows anyone, has a friend of a friend, or any other affiliation with FELDER, that may be able to help me out. That $3,000 I put down would really help me out big time right now.

[Rob Russell]

You might try posting on the Yahoo Groups Felder Owners Group to see if they have any ideas. Knowing Felder, I don't think you're going to get much help from them.

Note: I own Felder equipment.

[Jeremy Rayburn]

Thanks for the info, I'll try that as well....

[Brad Shipton]

Having dealt with Felder several times now I bet you must have signed a contract of some form. What does it say about refunds? I know the deposit I have made on past machines was non-refundable, but that was only 10% of the value of the order. Hopefully you will not lose more than 10% of the value of the machine. Beyond that would seem very rude, especially if they never ordered it and are not out a dime themselves.

Brad

[Chris Padilla]

At this point, it might be better to take the machine and then try to sell it. Do you think doing this you will take LESS THAN a 3k hit?

Maybe you could SELL your slot/machine to someone else for $1.5k. They would get a small discount and a brand new machine and you'd be out less money.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

That's a nice machine. I'd be looking at some kind of creative way to finance it.

If you want to offer it up to another taker it'll be up to you to work that out with Felder. Lay that gift certificate idea aside: and get yourself on the WOODWEB and the FOG and advertise it as a dead even deal. Then approach Felder with it so they can make the warranty applicable to the guy taking it.
I can see them ignoring you about the gift certificate. They probably have no way to make that happen.

You know how it is - - if there is no provision for it on the computer then they can't do it.


There is a guy on the FOG in new orleans. big joe is i got it right.

Meanwhile there was a machine ordered. They are made one at a time for each customer so, there's no "inventory." The drones in the factory are putting it together, and it'll end up on a boat and delivered to Felder. The Felder people can't allow themselves to get stuck with it.

I feel your pain I really do.
I would like to take your maching but I'm not in a position to do so having already bought my slider and J/P.

[Dave Sabo]

wasn't Carl Knapp with Laguna Tools recently? Now he's at Felder. Hum. You signed up for a layaway on a capital equipment purchase??? This is not Kmart or TJ Maxx. Seems some of the LT blow em out, gotta buy today, free hub caps and undercoating schemes have made their way to the east coast. I expect better from a global manufacturer.

[Doug Mason]

Unless it was someone else with the same name, I bought my MM jointer/planer and Bandsaw from Carl Knapp in 2005--so he was with Minimax too. I had a rough time with Carl - as my bandsaw arrived in a HEAVILY rusted state--with Carl taking the position that there was "nothing" wrong.

Hope things work out for you--but you pulled the trigger, so you can't backout free-of-charge.

[Paul B. Cresti]

not to add fuel to the fire but my feeling of Felder as a company is less then....well lets say stellar and i do own one of their Dust Extractors. If your scenario follows past presidence, you are on your own. You could either track down someone else to buy your machine or simply sell it after you get it. Do log onto the Felder website/yahoo group and you might be able to find a prospective buyer there....but do not expect Felder to help you one

[Rick Fisher]

Considering the storms, I am surprised Felder wont help you out a bit. Have they incurred any costs due to you?

They need to think of the future business prospects here. I would send an email to an executive at Felder USA with pictures of your home and problems.

There is a heart in there somewhere.

[Jeremy Rayburn]

That's the thing, the machine hasn't been ordered into production yet, it wouldn't be unless I paid for it in full. So Felder isn't out anything....

[jason lambert]

Yea I was having similar issues when a issue on one of there machines came up that I was looking at I was told no one ever had that issue and I was just being paroniod. I found 3 people that owned the machine and voiced complains to them so I think they are a little less than honest.

Hopefully someone on this board will pop up htat can buy it from you, I think that is your best way out. I know they read these boards now and then so maybe with the bad PR they will have to respond.

[Brad Shipton]

Jason, I dont think they are dishonest. Felder Corp lays out very specific rules to follow and if the dealers do not, they loose their rights to sell their product. I have not bought anything from them where the rules were not set in stone in the offer to purchase or a contract. In this case, the layaway setup seems only to be a risk to the purchaser and really a bad deal. About the only benefit was to secure the price, which probably only increased by 10% or so since he made the initial deposit. I bet the machine is around $10 - $15k so it is good that he didnt put anymore down.

Brad

[Jim Becker]

Brad, this is Felder direct, not a dealer. But you are correct. They apparently have rules relative to deposits and the OP is getting nailed by them. In fairness, other similar manufacturers also tend to keep deposits...this isn't a mass market type situation.

I personally do think, however, that it would be a nice act of goodwill for the company to reconsider based on the hurricane destruction situation, especially since it probably can be pretty well documented.

[Robert Lang]

I am a business owner and have contracts for all clients for many reasons including non-refundable deposits. But I am also human and try to be very very fair in circumstances like this with extraordinary circumstances, especially ones that can be proven. I would like to know how this ends up as I have considered Felder products for years and they have been courting me for just as long. Given the information you presented (even though I do not have Felder's direct response or contract), I would consider the resolution to this situation among many other variables before committing to a future Felder purchase. I always try to put people before business...I even get the real short-end sometimes but I can live with that...and I try to do business with others that do the same whether there is a written contract or not.

I have been a lurker here for years but felt compelled to reply to this Jeremy. I hope your child is doing well and good luck with rebuilding and with Felder.

By the way, I would only speak with the highest level person I can get on the phone or at the physical location at this point.

[Tom Panks]

I am in total agreement with Bob Lang; as I too used to do a LOT of business with contracts and the public. Too often Felder shows their total disregard for the human element in doing business..
I ordered a New Combination machine from Felder 3 years ago; sent the down stroke they asked for and waited. Two months later I was diagnosed with Prostate Cancer..stage 4..scared the hell outta me. I called Felder rep and told him the story. Explained I was in no position to accept the machine due to a gloomy looking future that would be pretty much dedicated to survival of my own life as well as my business's future. He offered to try and help me out. He called back a week later and told me Felder would not re-imburse the deposit nor any part of it. I also was told the machine was not into production yet.
So, they kept the money, did not have to build the machine and that's exactly what it sounds like is happening to Jeremy.
Jeremy..you should just make a hell of a lot of noise, maybe you can get them to respond favorably; they can't be THAT oblivious to this market! I did get a responce once by writting a short letter in German...they came back to me in a day!. Fastest response I ever got!!!!
Good Luck!

[Brad Shipton]

Jim, the confusing thing here is this was not a deposit and the machine has not been ordered. In essence, he setup a bank account and they are holding his money until he was ready to order. While I agree he will get nailed with a penalty, it should be reasonable for all parties considering the risks of each party. I hope Jeremy adds a basic description of the offer to purchase terms.

If there is no offer to purchase that Jeremy signed, i imagine this could be something the salesman came up with and now he may not know what to do about it. Jeremy has not mentioned that they have spouted any contractual terms denying his request nor have they sent a formal letter, but the salesman has been less than prompt in dealing with this. My Felder rep has always been very prompt and every time I log on to check prices I get a call a few days after asking questions. Some salesman are interesting characters so I hope he delves farther into this.

Brad

[Rod Sheridan]

Any new good news Jeremy?

regards, Rod.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I am in total agreement with Bob Lang; as I too used to do a LOT of business with contracts and the public. Too often Felder shows their total disregard for the human element in doing business..


Apparently Felder offered him a deal that he can work with. Maybe he'll post here and tell you about it.

[Jeremy Rayburn]

Here's the story w/ my experience with FELDER. At first, I was having a very hard time getting any response from my original salesman in regards to my problem. After posting on this board, as well as the FOG on Yahoo, I was contacted by Greg, a different sales rep from FELDER, who had abosolutely nothing to do with me or my transaction. He could only relate to me because he is from Florida, and understood the problems going through a hurricane(s) can cause. He took the reigns, contacted the people in his company that could do something, and got it done. He didn't have to get involved, but he did, and I am extremely thankful for that. So you won't hear any Felder bashing from me, and when I am able to make this purchase, I will absolutely, without hesitation, give him a call.

[Jeremy Rayburn]

By the way, the solution they came up with was they would let me out of the contract, without penalty, and I could use that credit to purchase a machine in the future, OR if I can find someone willing to buy the credit from me, they would allow me to transfer it into another name. Since I am in a bit of a money crunch right now with a 5% hurricane deductible, I am trying for option 2, so far without success.

[Rick Fisher]

I picked up a Felder tool today. Played with a bunch of sliding saws and sliding shapers in the show room. I have to say, nice .. nice equipment.

I am still (over a month) trying to get parts from SCMI. Thursday they told me they would not give me a price on the parts unless they had my credit card # on file. I didnt believe them, so I asked for confirmation and got another email today telling me that infact, without first obtaining my credit card information, they will not quote me prices on parts..

I am glad that Felder came up with something that worked for you. Its all people..

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Glad they came through for you Jeremy. Thats the same sort of good customer service thing they did for me after my issues with them, which is why I'm seriously considering a 731S this winter. Seems to be a good company. Plus, I'm personally glad to know the correct way to say mortiser, thanks to Sep's desk building!

[Bob Marino]

Glad they came through for you Jeremy. Thats the same sort of good customer service thing they did for me after my issues with them, which is why I'm seriously considering a 731S this winter. Seems to be a good company. Plus, I'm personally glad to know the correct way to say mortiser, thanks to Sep's desk building!

Steve,

Maybe I am missing something, but in this instance, how did Felder come through with good customer service? If I understand correctly, the machine isn't in production, let alone being packaged and ready to ship.
Other than some time for paperwork, Felder has incurred no expense. I can maybe understand a non-refundable deposit, if they were waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay further along -as above, but nothing was manufactured yet. Or maybe a small fee, but IMHO, Felder's "solution" is pretty poor.

Bob

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve,

Maybe I am missing something, but in this instance, how did Felder come through with good customer service? If I understand correctly, the machine isn't in production, let alone being packaged and ready to ship.
Other than some time for paperwork, Felder has incurred no expense. I can maybe understand a non-refundable deposit, if they were waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay further along -as above, but nothing was manufactured yet. Or maybe a small fee, but IMHO, Felder's "solution" is pretty poor.

Bob

Bob, seriously, you don't think that Felder had spent money to fullfil their end of the contract with Jeremy? The company spends money long before that shiney new piece of equipment rolls of the assembly line. In fact, I'd wager a fair piece, that most of the cost of producing a Felder tool happens before production starts.

Companies, Felder, mine, yours, whatever, use contracts to protect their investments. In this instance the contract is most likely to insure that they didn't end up with a machine sitting on a showroom floor someplace, getting its picture taken to send to me as the daily bargain. Keep in mind also, that these are not $599, Asian made, mass produced for the masses tools. Significantly smaller customer pool with this level of tool, which is another reason that Felder uses these contracts.

Felder offered a reasonable out for Jeremy, which they didn't lawfully have too, which he is happy with. Good customer service I think.

I personally had an issue with a Felder transaction, which caused me to cancel a purchase last year. I was irritated, and posted here. Felder listened, and made it right by me too. I will buy Felder this winter because they went above and beyond. I also have an issue with a Dewalt router. Suppose they will call me to make things right?

BTW, I said I might buy a 731 S, it is actually the 741 S that I am contemplating.

Have a good evening,

[Anthony Anderson]

Steve,

Maybe I am missing something, but in this instance, how did Felder come through with good customer service? If I understand correctly, the machine isn't in production, let alone being packaged and ready to ship.
Other than some time for paperwork, Felder has incurred no expense. I can maybe understand a non-refundable deposit, if they were waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay further along -as above, but nothing was manufactured yet. Or maybe a small fee, but IMHO, Felder's "solution" is pretty poor.

Bob

Bob, I was sitting here scratching my head, thinking the same thing. It doesn't appear to me that Felder really did much, other than holding Jeremy's deposit, and not penalizing him, and allowing him to transfer it to another buyer. They could have outright refunded his deposit, considering his situation. I realize that contracts are used to protect both parties, but, as mentioned, Jeremy's situation can be proven/documented. I would understand Felder's position if they had Jeremy's machine already in production, but that wasn't the case. Although it appears Jeremy didn't have much choice in the situation, I don't feel too comfortable ordering anything from Felder. A company without regard for customers, is not a company that I would care to do business with. Not that I had any plans to, but now definitely would not. Bill

[Rick Fisher]

I agree with Bob. I figure if he is happy, perhaps they suggested it and he was fine with that.

Its better than keeping his deposit.. so it was an improvement.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Bob, I was sitting here scratching my head, thinking the same thing. It doesn't appear to me that Felder really did much, other than holding Jeremy's deposit, and not penalizing him, and allowing him to transfer it to another buyer. They could have outright refunded his deposit, considering his situation. I realize that contracts are used to protect both parties, but, as mentioned, Jeremy's situation can be proven/documented. I would understand Felder's position if they had Jeremy's machine already in production, but that wasn't the case. Although it appears Jeremy didn't have much choice in the situation, I don't feel too comfortable ordering anything from Felder. A company without regard for customers, is not a company that I would care to do business with. Not that I had any plans to, but now definitely would not. Bill

Anthony, not intending to take this debate down the wrong course here, but Felder agreed to release the further financial obligations of the purchaser, because of a hardship. They most certainly could have kept his money, but instead, they provided an out. Try to talk your mortgage company into that. ;) I stand by my opinion.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

By the way, the solution they came up with was they would let me out of the contract, without penalty, and I could use that credit to purchase a machine in the future, OR if I can find someone willing to buy the credit from me, they would allow me to transfer it into another name. Since I am in a bit of a money crunch right now with a 5% hurricane deductible, I am trying for option 2, so far without success.

Jeremy, could this credit be applied to a different machine?

[Bob Marino]

Bob, seriously, you don't think that Felder had spent money to fullfil their end of the contract with Jeremy? The company spends money long before that shiney new piece of equipment rolls of the assembly line. In fact, I'd wager a fair piece, that most of the cost of producing a Felder tool happens before production starts.

Companies, Felder, mine, yours, whatever, use contracts to protect their investments. In this instance the contract is most likely to insure that they didn't end up with a machine sitting on a showroom floor someplace, getting its picture taken to send to me as the daily bargain. Keep in mind also, that these are not $599, Asian made, mass produced for the masses tools. Significantly smaller customer pool with this level of tool, which is another reason that Felder uses these contracts.

Felder offered a reasonable out for Jeremy, which they didn't lawfully have too, which he is happy with. Good customer service I think.

I personally had an issue with a Felder transaction, which caused me to cancel a purchase last year. I was irritated, and posted here. Felder listened, and made it right by me too. I will buy Felder this winter because they went above and beyond. I also have an issue with a Dewalt router. Suppose they will call me to make things right?

BTW, I said I might buy a 731 S, it is actually the 741 S that I am contemplating.

Have a good evening,

Steve,

Of course companies need to protect themselves, but should also be able to see customers as real people too. Again, they did not yet manufacture the tool and it wasn't a "custom" order or some such scenerio where they were along in the process and are out money.
If Jeremey is satisfied with the solution, that's really the bottom line and is cool with me, but IMHO, what they offered is pretty poor.

Bob

[Tom Henderson2]

Thanks for posting Jeremy. It has to be tough.

Seems like there are two lessons here for us all.

First, don't enter into a non-refundable deposit situation for any significant amount of money. This may mean walking away from an otherwise good deal, but as Jeremy has shown stuff can and does happen over the course of a few months that can really change your outlook.

Second, avoid doing business with Carl Knapp if at all possible.

Thanks to all that contributed. I'll certainly be much more sensitive to these issues going forward.

Jeremy, good luck with this, and let us know how it plays out.

-TH

[Paul B. Cresti]

Bob,
I agree with you 100% that they are no the most "people" friendly organization....but it all fairness I would bet that the no refund policy was clearly stated on the contract. I did buy a Felder RL160 and I knew there was a no refund policy but to me it did not make a difference because I knew I had to go through with the sale (dust collector is not an option for the machines I have). Now my favorite company I like to deal with ;) did give me a full refund option (which I never used) but I did work that out in the very beginning prior to the sale.

The funny thing is that with MiniMax I never signed a contract only gave them my CC for the deposit (I spent a huge amount of money with them) but Felder required me to sign a contract and pay the deposit prior to them accepting the order. IF you deal with Felder be it known that they are "by the book" and they will not waiver.

[Jeremy Rayburn]

Wow, had no idea when I started this post that it would spark such a discussion. I am happy with the solution that Felder came up with. Although it isn't the optimum result, which would be a full refund, at least I'm not out my deposit. I will not hesitate to do business with Felder in the future, but I will pay for my equipment all at once next time.

[simon hornby]

Gentlemen,

I would like to take this opportunity to clarify the facts in the case of Jeremy Rayburn, with particular regard to the integrity of Carl Knapp.

The reality is that Carl was doing his best behind the scenes at Felder USA to get a swift and fair decision for Jeremy. At the time, Felder USA was undergoing a change of management which did cause a slight delay in the decision making process. After hearing of the unfortunate circumstances which had befallen Jeremy and his family, new management at Felder USA agreed to Jeremy’s request to permit either a credit or deposit transfer against the original contract.

Unfortunately the communication of this decision to Jeremy did not follow company guidelines, which has led to some unwarranted criticism of Carl and his handling of the situation on this forum.

We regret any inconvenience or unnecessary frustration to Jeremy during this process. We are pleased in the knowledge that Jeremy is satisfied with the outcome and are grateful to Carl for his determined follow up



Yours Sincerely

Simon Hornby
Area Manager FELDER USA (West)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Gentlemen,

I would like to take this opportunity to clarify the facts in the case of Jeremy Rayburn, with particular regard to the integrity of Carl Knapp.

The reality is that Carl was doing his best behind the scenes at Felder USA to get a swift and fair decision for Jeremy. At the time, Felder USA was undergoing a change of management which did cause a slight delay in the decision making process. After hearing of the unfortunate circumstances which had befallen Jeremy and his family, new management at Felder USA agreed to Jeremy’s request to permit either a credit or deposit transfer against the original contract.

Unfortunately the communication of this decision to Jeremy did not follow company guidelines, which has led to some unwarranted criticism of Carl and his handling of the situation on this forum.

We regret any inconvenience or unnecessary frustration to Jeremy during this process. We are pleased in the knowledge that Jeremy is satisfied with the outcome and are grateful to Carl for his determined follow up



Yours Sincerely

Simon Hornby
Area Manager FELDER USA (West)

Thanks for listening to us here on this forum, Simon. This is the second time in less than a year that Felder has shown that it pays attention to what happens here. I for one, appreciate the fact that a premier tool company takes the time to respond and act on what we customers say. Partially because of this thread, partially because I just like your tools, I will be telling Brian that I will take either a CF 741 S, or an AD 741 Power Drive, with mortiser. Haven't decided which one yet.

[Joe Jensen]

Gentlemen,

I would like to take this opportunity to clarify the facts in the case of Jeremy Rayburn, with particular regard to the integrity of Carl Knapp.

The reality is that Carl was doing his best behind the scenes at Felder USA to get a swift and fair decision for Jeremy. At the time, Felder USA was undergoing a change of management which did cause a slight delay in the decision making process. After hearing of the unfortunate circumstances which had befallen Jeremy and his family, new management at Felder USA agreed to Jeremy’s request to permit either a credit or deposit transfer against the original contract.

Unfortunately the communication of this decision to Jeremy did not follow company guidelines, which has led to some unwarranted criticism of Carl and his handling of the situation on this forum.

We regret any inconvenience or unnecessary frustration to Jeremy during this process. We are pleased in the knowledge that Jeremy is satisfied with the outcome and are grateful to Carl for his determined follow up



Yours Sincerely

Simon Hornby
Area Manager FELDER USA (West)

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how Felder was all that magnanimous here. They had not yet started production. They refused to refund the money, and now they get to sit on it until the unfortunate buyer can fins someone to buy the credit from him.

Then they come on here to take credit for their really good deed :eek:

I just don't get it

[Don Bullock]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how Felder was all that magnanimous here. They had not yet started production. They refused to refund the money, and now they get to sit on it until the unfortunate buyer can fins someone to buy the credit from him.

Then they come on here to take credit for their really good deed :eek:

I just don't get it

Joe, I have to agree with you to a point. Since Jeremy seems satisfied with the case should be closed. I think that the Felder response stands on its own merit or lack of merit depending on one's point of view. I, for one, wouldn't deal with a company under the purchasing "agreement" that a company like Felder has. It wouldn't be agreeable with me.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how Felder was all that magnanimous here. They had not yet started production. They refused to refund the money, and now they get to sit on it until the unfortunate buyer can fins someone to buy the credit from him.

Then they come on here to take credit for their really good deed :eek:

I just don't get it

Joe, did you read all of the prevoius posts? Felder did what they could to make a happy customer. Not bad by my book. Oh, and by the way, I haven't seen Sawstop respond to a beef on this forum. Or Festool, or Makita, or Dewalt (or whoever owns them now), or Laguna, or Delta, or Grizzly, or Minimax, or anybody else! I think I do remember that Steel City has, through one of their testers. That means something to me.

Another thing to remember here, these are not cheap tools. I haven't seen any Felder tools priced at less than $5,000. Most are way more than that. This is in no way similar to buying a Unisaw knock off from your local borg type store.

Have a good evening, and please keep in mind, I am not trying to be offensive to you, just fair to Felder.

[Joe Jensen]

Joe, did you read all of the prevoius posts? Felder did what they could to make a happy customer. Not bad by my book. Oh, and by the way, I haven't seen Sawstop respond to a beef on this forum. Or Festool, or Makita, or Dewalt (or whoever owns them now), or Laguna, or Delta, or Grizzly, or Minimax, or anybody else! I think I do remember that Steel City has, through one of their testers. That means something to me.

Another thing to remember here, these are not cheap tools. I haven't seen any Felder tools priced at less than $5,000. Most are way more than that. This is in no way similar to buying a Unisaw knock off from your local borg type store.

Have a good evening, and please keep in mind, I am not trying to be offensive to you, just fair to Felder.

Yep, read them all. OP was struck by a natural disaster. Asked to cancel the order. Felder in the end compromised, no refund, but a transferable credit. Better, but not much of a "give" on their side as they hadn't started production yet. All it would have cost Felder to refund is not making a sale. As a business leader, it always amazes me how much bad press a company is willing to take over such a small amount.

I suspect the OP was deperate enough that any move to make it any easier was welcome.

Was this a SawStop thread?

[Tom Henderson2]

Gentlemen,

I would like to take this opportunity to clarify the facts in the case of Jeremy Rayburn, with particular regard to the integrity of Carl Knapp.

The reality is that Carl was doing his best behind the scenes at Felder USA to get a swift and fair decision for Jeremy. At the time, Felder USA was undergoing a change of management which did cause a slight delay in the decision making process. After hearing of the unfortunate circumstances which had befallen Jeremy and his family, new management at Felder USA agreed to Jeremy’s request to permit either a credit or deposit transfer against the original contract.

Unfortunately the communication of this decision to Jeremy did not follow company guidelines, which has led to some unwarranted criticism of Carl and his handling of the situation on this forum.

We regret any inconvenience or unnecessary frustration to Jeremy during this process. We are pleased in the knowledge that Jeremy is satisfied with the outcome and are grateful to Carl for his determined follow up



Yours Sincerely

Simon Hornby
Area Manager FELDER USA (West)

Simon-

You could very easily release this fellow from his contract. But instead you play hardball.

Why?

This isn't somebody that tried to back out at the last minute; he has had some serious circumstances that can be easily verified and needs the money.

You haven't started production yet so you aren't out a dime.

How can you justify this kind of scorched-earth policy? Is this the kind of company you are?

Do the right thing and give the guy a refund.

-Tom H.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

As a business leader, it always amazes me how much bad press a company is willing to take over such a small amount.



Was this a SawStop thread?

No Joe, not a SawStop thread, just used to illustrate a point.

I couldn't agree with you more about the taking bad press. That is why I'm trying to give Felder credit here. They are not just taking bad press. They are trying to fix this situation. They have the satisfaction of the OP, which is a good step. I have no idea what the OP's personal story is, other than what is posted here, but he does, and for us to second guess his satisfaction is just silly.

Just for arguments sake, is it fair to expect GM to let someone have their deposit on a custom ordered vehicle back if they change their mind? Some of these tools run the same price. GM didn't have that vehicle in production until it was custom ordered. Like it or not, isn't this just the way business works?

[Joe Jensen]

No Joe, not a SawStop thread, just used to illustrate a point.

I couldn't agree with you more about the taking bad press. That is why I'm trying to give Felder credit here. They are not just taking bad press. They are trying to fix this situation. They have the satisfaction of the OP, which is a good step. I have no idea what the OP's personal story is, other than what is posted here, but he does, and for us to second guess his satisfaction is just silly.

Just for arguments sake, is it fair to expect GM to let someone have their deposit on a custom ordered vehicle back if they change their mind? Some of these tools run the same price. GM didn't have that vehicle in production until it was custom ordered. Like it or not, isn't this just the way business works?

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the OP said the tool was not yet in production. Just a deposit, but not started yet. More like someone ordered a custom GM car, and then asked to cancel before production was started.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Gentlemen,

I would like to take this opportunity to clarify the facts in the case of Jeremy Rayburn, with particular regard to the integrity of Carl Knapp.

The reality is that Carl was doing his best behind the scenes at Felder USA to get a swift and fair decision for Jeremy. At the time, Felder USA was undergoing a change of management which did cause a slight delay in the decision making process. After hearing of the unfortunate circumstances which had befallen Jeremy and his family, new management at Felder USA agreed to Jeremy’s request to permit either a credit or deposit transfer against the original contract.

Unfortunately the communication of this decision to Jeremy did not follow company guidelines, which has led to some unwarranted criticism of Carl and his handling of the situation on this forum.

We regret any inconvenience or unnecessary frustration to Jeremy during this process. We are pleased in the knowledge that Jeremy is satisfied with the outcome and are grateful to Carl for his determined follow up



Yours Sincerely

Simon Hornby
Area Manager FELDER USA (West)

Simon,
How hard is to transfer Jeremy's money
to the very next Felder sale?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Other than some time for paperwork, Felder has incurred no expense.

That employee time carries a very real cost.
In order for a company to make a profit from an employee's time that employee must generate on par 310% of their base salary.

[Joe Jensen]

That employee time carries a very real cost.
In order for a company to make a profit from an employee's time that employee must generate on par 310% of their base salary.

I doubt Felder turned other buyers away while writing this order up..joe

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I doubt Felder turned other buyers away while writing this order up..joe

That wouldn't be my point.
I meant to say exactly what it was that I posted and not address some other thing.

The time spent doing a thing is time that someone had to pay for. It hardly matters that the person/s weren't cutting iron, assembling machines, or telling other customers to cool their heels. The cost is real.

But that is just a red herring because any claim that the seller must justify his losses to anyone's satisfaction in order to justify enforcing the contract pursuant to the terms in the written agreement is profoundly specious and cannot be justified.


And then there is the larger question of what it means to enter into an agreement.
I give my word & you give yours. There must be some worth to our freely given word.
Or maybe there isn't and that's why we have written agreements and contract law. Because people tend to treat their freely given word too lightly.
If the agreement doesn't contemplate changes in circumstances then, it doesn't. If one wants to hold a party to a transaction beholden to the changing circumstances that may befall them - which changing circumstances are entirely outside of the other party's control - then it behooves the one hoping to obtain such a thing thing to make sure that he both anticipates the circumstances that may change and includes provision for them in the written agreement.

This is not uncommon. in most real estate transactions it is very common to have a clause in the written agreement that stipulates that the transaction is dependent on the buyer obtaining financing.

It is more than a little disingenuous to demand that one is entitled re-negotiate an agreement after contract formation on the sole thesis that one party suffered a reversal.
In this instance it does not appear that Jeremy was trying to do this. Instead he was asking for something that fell outside the normal course of events and was also outside the written agreement. He was seeking an accord and satisfaction. And it appears that he and Felder did reach one.

Maybe it's just me but, I see a dramatic difference between trying to reach an accord and satisfaction (which is what Jeremy did) and expecting that the non-affected party should be automatically burdened by the changing circumstances of the affected party especially when the sole reason for the demand is: "just because."

[Paul B. Cresti]

The fact is that the contract signed most likely states no refund of the deposit!So they have you at their mercy so to speak. As far as the credit thing that is not anything special at all. They have done this many times before as I can recall other FOG members (Felder Owners Group) stating they had some credit and wanted to know if someone wanted to but it.

I guess in the end if the OP is satisfied case is closed...

[Joe Jensen]

That wouldn't be my point.
I meant to say exactly what it was that I posted and not address some other thing.

The time spent doing a thing is time that someone had to pay for. It hardly matters that the person/s weren't cutting iron, assembling machines, or telling other customers to cool their heels. The cost is real.

But that is just a red herring because any claim that the seller must justify his losses to anyone's satisfaction in order to justify enforcing the contract pursuant to the terms in the written agreement is profoundly specious and cannot be justified.


And then there is the larger question of what it means to enter into an agreement.
I give my word & you give yours. There must be some worth to our freely given word.
Or maybe there isn't and that's why we have written agreements and contract law. Because people tend to treat their freely given word too lightly.
If the agreement doesn't contemplate changes in circumstances then, it doesn't. If one wants to hold a party to a transaction beholden to the changing circumstances that may befall them - which changing circumstances are entirely outside of the other party's control - then it behooves the one hoping to obtain such a thing thing to make sure that he both anticipates the circumstances that may change and includes provision for them in the written agreement.

This is not uncommon. in most real estate transactions it is very common to have a clause in the written agreement that stipulates that the transaction is dependent on the buyer obtaining financing.

It is more than a little disingenuous to demand that one is entitled re-negotiate an agreement after contract formation on the sole thesis that one party suffered a reversal.
In this instance it does not appear that Jeremy was trying to do this. Instead he was asking for something that fell outside the normal course of events and was also outside the written agreement. He was seeking an accord and satisfaction. And it appears that he and Felder did reach one.

Maybe it's just me but, I see a dramatic difference between trying to reach an accord and satisfaction (which is what Jeremy did) and expecting that the non-affected party should be automatically burdened by the changing circumstances of the affected party especially when the sole reason for the demand is: "just because."

I can't disagree with any of that. Buyer bought, signed a contract, and then regretted his decision.

The point I tried to make in my first post was that Felder and many here seemed to feel that Felder went way above and beyond to help the buyer. Just didn't seem very above and beyond to me.

[michael flay]

Joe, did you read all of the prevoius posts? Felder did what they could to make a happy customer. Not bad by my book. Oh, and by the way, I haven't seen Sawstop respond to a beef on this forum. Or Festool, or Makita, or Dewalt (or whoever owns them now), or Laguna, or Delta, or Grizzly, or Minimax, or anybody else! I think I do remember that Steel City has, through one of their testers. That means something to me.

Another thing to remember here, these are not cheap tools. I haven't seen any Felder tools priced at less than $5,000. Most are way more than that. This is in no way similar to buying a Unisaw knock off from your local borg type store.

Have a good evening, and please keep in mind, I am not trying to be offensive to you, just fair to Felder.


Actually the owner of grizzly is a member and He has responded to problems and questions several times!!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Actually the owner of grizzly is a member and He has responded to problems and questions several times!!

Excellent! I'm happy to stand corrected on that one. IMHO, these forums can provide us users a voice to the manufacturers, and in several cases, directly.

[Mike Heidrick]

I am not aware of one problem Sawstop has not gratiously fixed through a simple phone call. I know I called about my throat plate screw being a bit loose and a new $29 throat plate arrived with less than 4 minutes discussion about it. Maybe it has to do with what you pay for one but their CS is impeccable so far from what I have read. Even in cases of user caused brake fires, many have been replaced free of charge as long as the brake gets sent back to them.

Steve Gass has posted I know on woodnet and has exchanged PMs with me as well.

Also lawaway on a big tool like this is thread is discussing is not an option I would do. Lease is one thing for a business but for a hobby shop buying it outright is the way to go.

Now putting a refundable deposit down on a machine you are going to look at (for example at IWF) I think is reasonable. It should ensure you will get a machine shipped to you more quickly if you decide it is the machine for you at the show.

[Rob Blaustein]

Oh, and by the way, I haven't seen Sawstop respond to a beef on this forum. Or Festool, or Makita, or Dewalt (or whoever owns them now), or Laguna, or Delta, or Grizzly, or Minimax, or anybody else! I think I do remember that Steel City has, through one of their testers. That means something to me.

Steve,
As pointed out, Grizzly's president Shiraz Balolia has responded on many occasions. But he's not the only one. You mentioned Sawstop: Steve Gass, who invented the Sawstop mechanism and started the company, has also responded to questions about his saw on this forum: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/search.php?searchid=2423709
Charles McCracken of Freud has done so too. Dino Makropoulis of EZ Smart has. Those are just a few that come to mind.
--Rob

[Tom Henderson2]

That employee time carries a very real cost.
In order for a company to make a profit from an employee's time that employee must generate on par 310% of their base salary.

In real terms, the cost incurred by Felder is tivial. So hit the OP with a nominal fee for paperwork if that is such a big deal. $50 or less.

If your point is that Felder has the legal right to be hardnose jerks and squeeze the deposit out of this fellow, you would be correct.

They could also be good corporate citizens and let this fellow out of his contract and refund his deposit.

It is their choice. And the choice they make shows the entire world what kind of company they are.

-TH

[Joe Jensen]

In real terms, the cost incurred by Felder is tivial. So hit the OP with a nominal fee for paperwork if that is such a big deal. $50 or less.

If your point is that Felder has the legal right to be hardnose jerks and squeeze the deposit out of this fellow, you would be correct.

They could also be good corporate citizens and let this fellow out of his contract and refund his deposit.

It is their choice. And the choice they make shows the entire world what kind of company they are.

-TH

I have to agree
+1

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve,
As pointed out, Grizzly's president Shiraz Balolia has responded on many occasions. But he's not the only one. You mentioned Sawstop: Steve Gass, who invented the Sawstop mechanism and started the company, has also responded to questions about his saw on this forum: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/search.php?searchid=2423709
Charles McCracken of Freud has done so too. Dino Makropoulis of EZ Smart has. Those are just a few that come to mind.
--Rob

Excellent again! The more industry types we have here, the better. There are a handfull of high dollar plane makers, and of course, Rob Lee as well. My point was not that these folks don't exist here, it was that Felder was being held to a higher level of accountability than most of the others.

I strongly believe that Simon's company would be benefitted by joining this discussion again. We all want this issue to end well, and to maybe make Felder a bit more aware of its image in this circle.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

In real terms, the cost incurred by Felder is tivial. So hit the OP with a nominal fee for paperwork if that is such a big deal. $50 or less.

As I said that is a red herring.


If your point is that Felder has the legal right to be hardnose jerks and squeeze the deposit out of this fellow, you would be correct.And there you seem to have missed my point entirely.
A person's freely given word should be the controlling factor not some notion about people being bad if they insist on the agreements being kept.

I am unable to get all the way to "hardnosed jerks" when the only thing a person is doing is looking to have an agreement met according to it's terms.


They could also be good corporate citizens and let this fellow out of his contract and refund his deposit.That makes no sense to me. This speaks to the larger (and I think improper & dangerous) issue of people expecting that the Company they do business with must keep its side of the bargain but, they don't have to. In fact they expect the companies to put themselves out beyond the agreement and incur a loss.
Are the individuals such children that they should always have a do over? Are consumers really helpless little children who can not be expected to hold up their end of a bargain? Are people really so immature that it is some how unfair (bad corporate citizenry) to expect that a person who makes a contract and memorializes it in writing should not be held to its terms?

I can't wrap my head around an image of adult persons that reduces them to the level of helpless little children.
It just doesn't work for me.

It isn't good "corporate citizenship" (what ever the devil that means) to give people a do over and tear agreements up. It may however, be smart marketing. The dealer who bends over backwards to accommodate a customer is not demonstrating goodness or character when he goes the extra and extends himself like that. There is no way to tell what sort of persons the company is run by based on such things. However, it is smart marketing. Ruthless people are capable of smart marketing.

However, to expect it, is I think, unrealistic. I should think that the better course would be to be pleasantly surprised when it happens.

[Rod Sheridan]

Boy, this thread sure does have opposing viewpoints in it.

Although I feel sorry for Jeremy, he of his own choice made a legally binding agreement with Felder.

Jeremy had a couple of unfortunate personal experiences, and I hope everything works out for him.

Felder were under no obligation to do anything, except enforce the terms of the contract.

The fact that Felder were willing to relinquish their legal rights, to do something nice for a customer who was experiencing a hardship, speaks well of them.

I have had nothing but positive experiences with Felder, and their treatment of Jeremy re-inforces my opinion further.

I hope everything works out for Jeremy, he recovers from his present circumstances, and is able to enjoy owning and using a Felder machine at a later date.

Regards, Rod.