plywood vs. real wood?

[larry merlau]

i have read in other post that there seems to be a fair amount of you that use solid wood for everythng, including backs of projects. where does the line begin between using plywood and not using plywood in projects, say a reproduction of an old secretary or a new version of armoire? thanks for your replies and opinions. //still learning//

[Mark Singer]

In fine cabinets I will make the drawer bottoms, sides etc from solid wood....I resaw the wood to thickness and plane it. The cabinet backs on large pieces I will always use plywood for strength and then resaw my own veneer and cover the back from the inside by gluing the real wood to the plywood. The veneer should be about 1/8" to 1/4" thickness. Smaller boxes I will make entirely from solid wood.

[Dean Baumgartner]

Larry, I tend to use plywood wherever I can. If the piece will be flat without detail in it or will be banded in solid wood. I think it tends to be more dimensionally stabil. Sometimes you have to look through a number of sheets to find one that has good looking grain to it. I guess my decision is also partly based on the fact that my band saw is not up to a lot of re-sawing otherwise I might do as Mark does.

Dean

[Donnie Raines]

The funny thing about plywood is that it is no longer a cheaper alternative...for the most part. Sure, there are some grades of ply that are cost effective, but then you might not be useing that for "furniture grade" items. I hardly use any plywood...even for the backsides of cabinets. Many of the projects I make are re-productions of Shaker items and they never used plywood.

I guess it boils down to what you are trying to accomplish. Re-production work..no plywood. Your own design..maybe.


Donnie Raines

[larry merlau]

In fine cabinets I will make the drawer bottoms, sides etc from solid wood....I resaw the wood to thickness and plane it. The cabinet backs on large pieces I will always use plywood for strength and then resaw my own veneer and cover the back from the inside by gluing the real wood to the plywood. The veneer should be about 1/8" to 1/4" thickness. Smaller boxes I will make entirely from solid wood.

thanks mark for taking time to reply. had just read another reply from you and browsed your bio and was comtemplating asking you threw email but didnt think i should bother some one of your expertise. thanks for reading my mind, it was a short story huh:) the armoire is for a college grad gift for my daughter outa cherry 48 wide by 72 high, havnt started yet just gettin info first thanks again//larry

[Donnie Raines]

One more thing. Plywood is softer, therfore it is prone to denting easier. So if you make a functional item of plywood you can expect that the durbilty(while it will still remain solid) will show more wear and tear. Compared to its solid wood counterpart.


Donnie Raines

[Ken Salisbury]

SOLID IS THE WATCHWORD ! ! !

(From an "Old Dog" who refuses to learn new tricks:rolleyes: )

[Jim Becker]

This decision is mostly one of personal preference and style, although there are some things that could be best served by manufactured products, such as plywood. If you pay attention to moisture and wood movement characteristics, mill lumber straight and true and generally be thoughtful about how you build your project, solid stock can and will be every bit as sturdy and stable as something made of plywood. That said, plywood offers easier, or at least less time consuming project assembly, especially for beginning woodworkers or folks engaged in "high volume/low personnel production work". It also can be very cost effective when exotics are involved...thin veneers of species hard or expensive to get are often the rule. Even with the high cost of the sheet goods, it's still a fraction of the cost of solid stock for larger panels. Actual availabilty of good plywood will also affect the choice...if the veneer isn't cut to match the solid lumber in a project, it will make finishing a challenge and sometimes make things look quite aweful from a lack of consistancy. Grain and color matching right from the start is the first step to a fine finish.

I use plywood for carcases of things like kitchen and bath cabinets as well as utilty pieces for the shop. For furniture, I personally prefer using solid stock and generally only use plywood for drawer bottoms and sometimes the back of a piece where said back will be totally hidden. Why? I just plain enjoy working that way. There is something wonderful about taking a bunch of rough boards and turning them into a piece of fine furniture.

[Tim Sproul]

[QUOTE=Donnie Raines]One more thing. Plywood is softer, therfore it is prone to denting easier. So if you make a functional item of plywood you can expect that the durbilty(while it will still remain solid) will show more wear and tear. Compared to its solid wood counterpart.
/QUOTE]

all depends on what you're comparing....

bubinga veneered lumbercore wears just as well as solid bubinga....poplar veneer core plywood with bubinga face will dent more easily than solid bubinga.


plywood, mdf, particleboard, solid wood and others all have their places. It is up to each craftsman to decide what those places are.

guaranteed, if the masters of 'fore had access to engineered wood materials, they would have used some in the places they felt were appropriate.

[Chris Padilla]

As an example, I have a very large entertainment center I am building for our TV room.

All the cabinets faces that will be seen are from A1 3/4" Maple plywood. The rest of the cabinet including internal support will be Home Depot grade 3/4" Birch ply.

The shelves for the EC will be Maple plywood as well edged with maple hardwood to make it look like solid maple. I will use my Burgess Bit system for this (www.burgessedge.com (http://www.burgessedge.com)). In fact, I will use this edge-banding technique wherever a plywood edge might be seen. The LOML is still deciding if the cabinets will include a faceframe or not.

The EC's drawer/door fronts will be all hardwood. In fact, I've been collecting figured maple just for this reason. I do have 4 drawers to make and am deciding if they should be all hardwood (save for the bottoms) or not. Most likely, they will be all maple with dovetails.

So that is my plan for a mix of hardwood and plywood.

Oh, I'm not sure about the back for the shelving unit. I'm trying to talk SWMBO into a beaded backing (all hardwood) and if not, it will be a sheet of maply ply...we'll see.

[Donnie Raines]

[QUOTE=Donnie Raines]One more thing. Plywood is softer, therfore it is prone to denting easier. So if you make a functional item of plywood you can expect that the durbilty(while it will still remain solid) will show more wear and tear. Compared to its solid wood counterpart.
/QUOTE]

all depends on what you're comparing....

bubinga veneered lumbercore wears just as well as solid bubinga....poplar veneer core plywood with bubinga face will dent more easily than solid bubinga.


plywood, mdf, particleboard, solid wood and others all have their places. It is up to each craftsman to decide what those places are.

guaranteed, if the masters of 'fore had access to engineered wood materials, they would have used some in the places they felt were appropriate.

Tim,

I will concead that certain grades will where diffrently...but for the ply that wears better the cost also goes up. So you are back to square one. Raw cost. I guess, too, that it depends on what people pay for hardwood. I am very lucky in that I pay a very competative price for many of the hardwoods I use.

Donnie Raines

[Tim Sproul]

Donnie,

Cost aside, sometimes working with plywood is the better choice than solid wood....invariably due to the movement issues presented with solid wood.

If a customer wants mitered edging around a dining room table....and insists upon that as well as saying that any seasonal gaps are completely unacceptable....would you tell them to go elsewhere? Or would you offer them the possibility that they can have what they want, so long as you are allowed to use an engineered material for the majority of the top? For myself, the choice is clear. Worst they can say is no and go elsewhere and get the same reply or find an unscrupulous businessman (I won't say craftsman because none would do this) who won't disclose the use of engineered material or will use solid wood regardless of the movement issues.

another scenario....perhaps you've a special board with unusual pattern and figure. By itself, the board looks "funny" or off-center but you know that if you bookmatched a certain way, it would look spectacular. Yet, you've only got a 4/4 board....and need to get 2 panels from this board....

Engineered materials allow us to do things we couldn't with solid wood. Alas, engineered materials also allow for shortcuts where they shouldn't be taken....

[Donnie Raines]

Donnie,

Cost aside, sometimes working with plywood is the better choice than solid wood....invariably due to the movement issues presented with solid wood.

If a customer wants mitered edging around a dining room table....and insists upon that as well as saying that any seasonal gaps are completely unacceptable....would you tell them to go elsewhere? Or would you offer them the possibility that they can have what they want, so long as you are allowed to use an engineered material for the majority of the top? For myself, the choice is clear. Worst they can say is no and go elsewhere and get the same reply or find an unscrupulous businessman (I won't say craftsman because none would do this) who won't disclose the use of engineered material or will use solid wood regardless of the movement issues.

another scenario....perhaps you've a special board with unusual pattern and figure. By itself, the board looks "funny" or off-center but you know that if you bookmatched a certain way, it would look spectacular. Yet, you've only got a 4/4 board....and need to get 2 panels from this board....

Engineered materials allow us to do things we couldn't with solid wood. Alas, engineered materials also allow for shortcuts where they shouldn't be taken....

Tim,

First of all, I dont do this for a living...no I would care less what someone else wanted... :cool: . But you are correct when you point out the mitred corner issue. However, I have made a solid wood top with mitred corners..but I did it in such a way that wood movement is accounted for..with no issues. it did take a lot more effort compared to useing plywood to accomplish this however.

Secondly, I cut figured wood into venner all the time and vacum press that onto a substraight...so I totally understand the logic behind book mathcing panels. I simply pointed out that there are some flaws with ply, cost and the fact that many of the diffrent grade dent easy. I did not suggest that it was a sin nor did I suggest that I dont use or recommend the use of ply within a project. I prefer to stay true to the designs that I work with..Shaker. And they did not use plywood(sure..maybe they would have had they had it avaliabe to them). But they did not.

We both have our ideas on this topic. I am gathering that you are in the buisness...while I am not. I am not concerned about speed(thus profit). And i think cost is a bigger issue then you think. I pay far less for cherry then you do..if you are a west coast person. While you get red wood for a better price then I. You also get maple burls at much better rate then(well..not always). point is, ply is often a quicker cheaper fix. But not always. And as far as wood movment goes. If you construct the project correctly, wood movement need not concern you. If you are a screw and glue kinda guy...I could see why that would concern you(again..dont take this a attack..I have no idea how you work). But if you use M/T and floating panels and sliding dovetails(with a dab of glue at the back side) and account for wood movement when you have a cross grain situation you will be fine.

Donnie Raines

[Alan Turner]

Larry,
As others above have said, the use of solid wood versus plywood is in some measure a matter of personal taste. My taste runs to the solids, and so, except for certain veneering, this is all that I use. As one noted aobve, certain design considerations, such as mitered corners on a tabletop, require the use of engineered materials. I think that the look of commercial plywood (as distinguished from hand cut veneers), together with solid wood for edges, etc., makes a piece look quite different than the same piece made only with solid wood. To my eye it cheapens the piece. On the other hand, for a large piece, such as an entertainment center, the use of plywood is certainly more efficient. As to cost, well, I believe a good quality cabinet ply in cherry or walnut is aobut $130 per 4x8 sheet, or $4 per foot. This is roughly the cost of solid wood, although the waste is far less.
Each maker has to make a number of personal and design decisions, and ply vs. solid is one.
Alan

[Tim Sproul]

Donnie,

'Tis not a thing : ). Like I said earlier, it is a decision for each craftsman to make - where and when to use engineered materials over solid wood. Built-in cabintry begs for use of engineered material for the carcass.....stand alone pieces beg for solid wood.

I guess my point being that you can obtain or veneer yourself, engineered materials that are indistinguishable from a solid wood panel. Unless, the joinery and construction make it obvious. I try to stick to solid wood as much as possible......but I think it is folly for craftsman - hobby or professional - to discount engineered materials for either physical (strength, wearability, durability) or aesthetic or cost reasons. Certainly, if you are making an 18th century reproduction, you might avoid plywood.....

And then the question can also be furthered.....by a recent examply on this thread of the "leaf" foyer table....is making your own engineered material acceptable over purchasing engineered material?

I take no negative bend on your comments and hope I've not riled your anger. I am thinking we are merely discussing some of the reasons individual craftsman have for use or disuse of plywood.

[Donnie Raines]

Donnie,

'Tis not a thing : ). Like I said earlier, it is a decision for each craftsman to make - where and when to use engineered materials over solid wood. Built-in cabintry begs for use of engineered material for the carcass.....stand alone pieces beg for solid wood.

I guess my point being that you can obtain or veneer yourself, engineered materials that are indistinguishable from a solid wood panel. Unless, the joinery and construction make it obvious. I try to stick to solid wood as much as possible......but I think it is folly for craftsman - hobby or professional - to discount engineered materials for either physical (strength, wearability, durability) or aesthetic or cost reasons. Certainly, if you are making an 18th century reproduction, you might avoid plywood.....

And then the question can also be furthered.....by a recent examply on this thread of the "leaf" foyer table....is making your own engineered material acceptable over purchasing engineered material?

I take no negative bend on your comments and hope I've not riled your anger. I am thinking we are merely discussing some of the reasons individual craftsman have for use or disuse of plywood.

Tim,

Nope...no hard feelings man. We were just havening good hardy conversation. Like most things on the web, you dont know how someone is trying to express there feelings simply by words(typed) alone. Were you and I having this conversation in person I suspect we would be on the same page..or very close any how.

No offense what so ever taken...this is the kind of conversation that sparks the creative juices..and help people learn.


Donnie Raines

[Mark Singer]

Tim,
sorry veneered plywood will never be indistinguishable from solid wood...How would I have made my lamps? A coopered door ? Any Krenov cabinet? Don't ever hand plane veneered plywood to a slightly undulating surface that invites the touch...

[Tim Sproul]

Mark....there are pieces with plywood that you would not be able to say plywood when looking at them. wood is wood. if the show surface is 2 inches thick or a mere 1/8 inch thick.....makes no difference. If you take QS veneered plywood and use it as a panel in a frame and panel, you cannot know it isn't solid wood unless you know what to look for....typically the give away is that the front and back of the panel don't match.....

If I choose veneering and still want a more obvious hand planed feel...I'l be sure to use 1/8 veneer or thicker.

I have never hinted or suggested that plywood should be used whenever...in fact I had thought I'd suggested that each craftsman needs to decide. My preference is for solid wood when I can.

Perhaps woodworking is a paradox. Quite traditional and yet so innovative.....

I just disagree with your statement that veneered plywood can NEVER be indistinguishable from solid wood.

[Mark Singer]

Solid wood or plywood?
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4992&stc=1
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=5866&highlight=lamp

http://www.victordinovi.com/images/buffet.jpg courtesy:Victor Di Novi
Hard to tell....

[David Rose]

I *never* use plywood! No, wait, my router table cabinet (not just thrown together) is mostly plywood. But nothing else! Oh, except for the bottom in the daughter's pine chest. But not again. Well, except for many fixtures and such. I really enjoy figuring things out with *all* hardwood, but if the situation raises its (ugly :) ) head, I will use plywood. All my work so far is a basically "no rush" situation. If I were shooting for ultimate efficiency I would use it more. I guess my answer to the question is... use it if it "feels good" there. I LOVE real wood... everywhere!

David

[Chris Padilla]

Mark....there are pieces with plywood that you would not be able to say plywood when looking at them. wood is wood. if the show surface is 2 inches thick or a mere 1/8 inch thick.....makes no difference. If you take QS veneered plywood and use it as a panel in a frame and panel, you cannot know it isn't solid wood unless you know what to look for....typically the give away is that the front and back of the panel don't match.....

If I choose veneering and still want a more obvious hand planed feel...I'l be sure to use 1/8 veneer or thicker.

I have never hinted or suggested that plywood should be used whenever...in fact I had thought I'd suggested that each craftsman needs to decide. My preference is for solid wood when I can.

Perhaps woodworking is a paradox. Quite traditional and yet so innovative.....

I just disagree with your statement that veneered plywood can NEVER be indistinguishable from solid wood.
Tim,

My father built some walnut built-in cabinets at his house with a mixture of walnut ply and solid walnut. I have to admit that the walnut plywood lacked a certain depth to it when compared with the hardwood. Perhaps there are several good reasons for this (poor ply comes to mind whatever poor means) but for whatever reason, it is quite easy in my eye to distinguish the plywood and solid wood on his cabinets.

Now that I am into building a large EC, I am anxious to see, in the end, if one can tell the maple ply vs. maple hardwood. Looking even moderately carefully, it will be easy to tell but I wonder if a "quick look" or semi-inexperienced eye might tell?

To that end, this thread has gotten me rethinking about how to approach some of the pieces within my EC.

[Tim Sproul]

Mark,

I've no idea what point you're trying to get across. Nice work, yes. No plywood in those - probably not, especially since you're a proponent of only solid wood.


Chris,

most of today's commercially veneered hardwood plywood is not that good....it is better to get thinner plywood and veneer it yourself....1/2 inch plywood with 1/8 inch veneers. And then you'll have total control over the appearance.

[Alan Turner]

I'm not sure I agree with the notion of 1/8" veneer over plywood. The veneer that thick will move, and crack, since the ply beneath will not move. Better to finish t about 1/16" or so. IMHO.
Alan

[Donnie Raines]

I'm not sure I agree with the notion of 1/8" veneer over plywood. The veneer that thick will move, and crack, since the ply beneath will not move. Better to finish t about 1/16" or so. IMHO.
Alan

Most of the venner I cut and sand finishes out close 1/16th also. I have yet to go thicker...and have not encountered any issues.


Donnie Raines

[Earl Kelly]

I think what Tim is talking about is user made plywood, veneering a core with your faces. And what most of the others are meaning or going by is the everyday furniture grade ply you can buy. I agree the manufactured ply does not have the depth and beauty of solid. But you can make your own with veneers that are not even available as solids. There are things you can do with veneer that you cannot do with solids and vise versa. I once built a very large cylinder fall secretary, it was veneered in a very fine flame birch. But it was also made from solid wood no plywood( except for the backs) It was 5 ply constuction with a 3/4-1" poplar core. I did this to replicate the way antiques with veneer are constructed. So was that piece solid or plywood?

[Mark Singer]

No point ....one of those projects is made entirely from plywood....it is almost impossible for me to pick which one....They really do look the same...I agree

[Mark Singer]

I do use sheet goods and enjoy combinig solid wood with sheet goods such as veneered plywood....
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=5575&highlight=closet

The wood is walnut and so is the plywood