User braces and egg beaters: suggestions?

[Ben Fleis]

I have been wanting to get a brace and an egg beater drill for quite some time, but never had the opportunity or need to follow through. However, I am now situated in Camden, Maine, which happens to be located near lots of antique tool shops.

Anybody have suggestions on particular models to look for, in terms of usability and repairability? Online searches suggest Millers Falls for egg beters and North Bros. for braces, but I thought it worthwhile to get some interactive opinions. Plus, I'd rather spend $10 on a good user than $100 on another drill where collectors have bumped the prices too much...

Also, any suggestions on what to look at in the drills themselves?

Thanks!

-b

[Peter Quadarella]

I am by no means an expert, but I picked up a North Bros. eggbeater that has some pretty cool ratcheting features. There's a thread on this forum somewhere about it. I've used it a bit lately and like it a lot.

I also have since picked up Stanley and North Bros. yankee drills, which can often be very handy since they are quick and light.

[Tony Sade]

From Randy Roeder's great Millers Falls study page (http://oldtoolheaven.com/) :

"In February 1956, Joe Guilbault, a veteran of fifty years in the Millers Falls hand drill department, was interviewed for the firm's employee magazine, Dyno-mite. During his long tenure, Guilbault worked on sixty-one different hand drill models, fitting the gears on more drills than perhaps anyone in the history of the company. Asked if he has a favorite among all the models, Guilbault replied, "The number two, that is it. The best hand drill in all the world. The number five, too. I like two and five best."

For braces, I'm most fond of the Stafford/Fray models with the pewter rings. Elegant in their simplicity and very nice to look at.

HTH,

[Alan DuBoff]

Tony,

I like the Miller Falls 2 I have, it's a great hand drill, IMO. I also use a Yankee sometimes, and it's convenient for small things. I could use the MF for most of the stuff I use the Yankee for also...so if I had to pick, the MF would get the nod for my use.

One thing I really like about the Miller Falls is on the handle gear, it has 2 gears in conjunction with it, so it seems solid in the way it operates. Just operates and functions well for me. I also like Miller Falls stuff, as well as Goodell-Pratt, so take my comments with a grain of salt. ;)

[Michael Faurot]

Awhile back I picked up a restored Goodell-Pratt two speed egg beater from WK Tools (http://wktools.com/index.asp) that's been great. While it sounds like you want to do your own restoration, a visit to WK Tools might be good for some inspiration.

Prior to getting my restored Goodel-Pratt egg beater, I had picked up a no-name one at a flea market. For the most part the no-name was in pretty good shape and worked, but after using it a awhile I found a problem with it. Small bits would not sit perfectly centered in the chuck. I disassembled the chuck, cleaned it up and attempted to discern what the problem might be, but I was never able to.

So what you may want to do is carry a small bit with you to check the chucks on the drills you're interested in buying. Turn the drill with the bit in it and see if the bit is perfectly aligned to the center, or if it wobbles.

[Casey Gooding]

Best to keep your eyes open and be aware. I have picked up several Millers Falls eggbeaters and several 2101 Braces for under $30 each. It's easier to find the eggbeaters cheap, good braces are harder to find, but they're out there.

[Clint Jones]

I'd rather spend $10 on a good user than $100 on another drill where collectors have bumped the prices too much...

-b

That statement makes me laugh. It is actually the users that drive up the prices. Yankee bell system braces used to be a dime a dozen even on ebay until the user community heard their praises. Now they go for $50+ . Also the stanley 750 chisels used to be had for cheap then Lie Nielsen modeled their bench chisels after them and it sent the prices sky high. The stanley 112 after featured on the cover of a popular WW magazine went from $50 to $150. Quote from B&G

"For the longest time, the plane labored in relative obscurity among a cult of those adroit in the fine points of scraping. It used to be that these things sat unloved at tool events and auctions, and one almost ducked for cover when asking $75 for one. However, a popular scratch n' sniff magazine prominently featured the plane on the cover of an issue, and the prices of the things have never been the same.." Patrick Leach.

If anything it has been user demand that drives the price up on WWing tools. As handtools become more popular, the more usefull, quality tools will demand a higher price because the newer (less quality) versions cost so much to produce.

[Bill Houghton]

I can't say enough nice things about the Stanley 610. This is a shielded-gear drill - nice if you have small children in the shop - but it's also got a ball bearing thrust bearing, and operates VERY smoothly.

I'm not a fan of the Millers-Falls No. 2. I have two examples, and, on both, the rear handle is wobbly, because the wood is worn out, which makes drilling very dicey. I agree with another post that wobbly is BAD in eggbeater drills.

In my opinion, eggbeaters are optimal up to about 3/16" (although, for small holes, as in screw or hardware installation, NOTHING beats a push drill). After that, a brace is superior.

[Dusty Fuller]

I envy you, I really do. I went to a few stores on the east coast when I was on my honeymoon... tool heaven. I bought an almost-complete brace bit set (and filled in the gaps for a total of 15 bits) for less than $20. The brace I use is a Pexto, and I have a couple more waiting for restoration. Enjoy the old tools!

[Ben Fleis]

Clint, it is good to understand reality. Next time I see I am at the antique tool place, I'll make sure to quietly curse you and the rest of the neanders for every high priced old stanley I see :-D

But in all seriousness, I suppose it makes sense. Antique collectors probably don't drive the prices up for the less than pretty planes too much. Only the really polished and clean ones would benefit from that, and I am not even looking at those.

-b

[Ben Fleis]

Thanks for all this excellent input. Now I just need to hunt a few down.

-b

[Alan DuBoff]

That statement makes me laugh. It is actually the users that drive up the prices.
Maybe so, but it's also folks like you that do a good job at driving the prices up also. ;)

[Clint Jones]

Maybe so, but it's also folks like you that do a good job at driving the prices up also. ;)

Nope sorry I dont. I dont buy stuff unless its dirt cheap ;). The only time I pay dearly is if it is something I want for my collection and that kind of stuff you shouldnt be using anyways.

[Alan DuBoff]

Nope sorry I dont. I dont buy stuff unless its dirt cheap ;). The only time I pay dearly is if it is something I want for my collection and that kind of stuff you shouldnt be using anyways.
Sure you don't buy unless it's dirt cheap, but how much of those do you sell for dirt cheap prices?

That's my point.

In your previous message you were placing the onus for the prices of vintage tools going up on the user/buyer, because they pay the prices for them. I don't disagree, but in part it is the dealers that continue to search out tools at dirt cheap prices, and sell them for market value, or more if they can, who contribute just as much to the inflation.

In a previous career more than 20 years ago, I sold vintage guitars. Jackson Browne was always upset at the vintage guitar dealers, claiming they raised the prices to outrageous levels. The dealers would claim it was supply and demand, and that if folks wanted those guitars, and that the dealers were kind enough to make them available, they were not doing anything to fuel the fire. But even though I was a dealer, I knew very well that I would not buy something and sell it at a marginal markup unless it was to a friend. Do you think Jackson Browne felt bad about charging hundreds of thousands of $$$s to perform? And do you think Jackson Browne was trying to give away his vintage guitars when he wanted to get rid of some, loaded up in a u-haul truck, dragging them around to the dealers to sell?

At that time, many of the rock stars were already buying vintage guitars while on the road. Guitars that were dirt cheap as you say. Those guitars started to get more popular and prices started to go up, as dealers started to buy/sell them. We see the same thing happening with old tools, just like any collectibles.

How about selling me a Bedrock that you bought for $25, for say $35?

[Peter Quadarella]

Prices are what people will pay for them. Sometimes you can get a deal and pay less for something than others would pay, but you are just lucky in that instance.

Personally, I am very grateful that there are people like Clint around, searching for the deals and cleaning them up a bit. I don't have the time or inclination to do the searching myself usually, so it's a real worthwhile service for me.

[Clint Jones]

A market price is set by what people are willing to pay for something. I dont think collectors or dealers are willing to pay $50 for a bell system brace or $30 for a 750 chisel. Collectors definately drive up the prices on some things but the vast majority are items that have no user value at all (well maybe except bedrocks and maybe a few other things). Dealers driving up prices, that is insane, a dealer doesnt want to pay market value so you dont have to worry about them. You have the same oppurtunity as a dealer to buy at a low price by frequenting estate sales, auctions, yard sales, and craigslist.

As for selling a Bedrock I find for $25 for $35 ...aint gonna happen. My time and knowledge is worth something. Also have to factor in the gas and sometimes lodging as I travel to buy alot of the things I find. I have been told by some buyers they dont mind paying the markup as their time is more valueable to them than the money.

[Bill Moser]

I have a stanley 921 10" brace, and a goodell-pratt egg-beater (both off of ebay). Both great tools. The 921 in particular is in perfect condition, no loss of plating, and came with an extension bit, for < $30! Good luck on ever finding kind of deal again, but there are plenty of decent stanley. millers falls and even craftsman braces for sale online every day, for cheap. A box of Jennings or Irwin auger bits is cheap as well. I love my braces & drills. Nothing against my Makita 18v, but I'd rather reach for the others....

Also, to put in my .02 on another question raised in this thread -- I, as a user, always considered Stanley 750's out of reach (for a complete, original set, anyway). I was ecstatic when LN produced their updated version, and have the whole set now. At about $50 per, they beat out a set of 750's in price, and i'd bet in performance as well. There are some old tools worth having for their beauty alone (Preston bullnose planes or side rabbetts, ultimatum braces, millers patent planes, etc). But in most cases, if I can afford it, I'll take a new set of whatever by contemporary toolmakers over the antiques any day.

[Roger Bell]

"As for selling a Bedrock I find for $25 for $35 ...aint gonna happen. My time and knowledge is worth something. Also have to factor in the gas and sometimes lodging as I travel to buy alot of the things I find. I have been told by some buyers they dont mind paying the markup as their time is more valueable to them than the money." - Clint Jones

Mr. Jones is quite correct concerning the tool dealers. I know quite a number of these guys and they spend considerable time in the acquisition process. It seems to me, in consideration of that time and effort...to say nothing of the time it takes to acquire the wherewithall.....for these gents to include at least some of that in their price to you.

Moreover, Mr. Jones makes a point that should be self evident. That it is the users, rather than the so-called collectors, that are driving the market and the demand that they create that is setting the prices. There aren't enough collectors out there to make that much of a difference and they just ain't interested in the cheap user stuff anyway. A few, like Mr. Jones and on occasion, myself, deal from time to time to support their habit. And we sell at the price that the market will bear. If it don't sell, then the price is lowered until it does. But guess what?

In any event, this is what it is and those who wish to attain the rather silly gloats derived by getting something on the cheap might be advised to do what the dealers and the collectors do to get what they get. Namely, to spend the time and effort it takes to find desirable items for desirable prices. And that kind of effort doesn't happen don't happen while surfing the Net while at work. It takes more than that. A lot more.

So it don't do no good whatsoever to blame nobody, now does it? Times change. Markets change. The good old days when we used to get all kinds of things etc., etc., for near nutthin', just ain't here no more. So we can just hike up the old suspenders a bit higher and continue to grouse or we can accept things just as they are without blaming anyone, can't we?

And from what I recall, the old days weren't all that great anyway.

And, to make this post relevant and to bring the discussion back to on topic, if the OP can't find something suitable, PM me and I will take care of it.

[David Martino]

It's these internet forums driving up the prices!!!!!!!!

Let me do my part:

The online auction haven is tricky unless you know what to look for, and bargains are hard to come by, at least for me. I've had good luck buying from two online sellers,
Brass City Tools,
and Sandy at sydnassloot.

Not sure about including links here, but you can Google for the addresses. There are probably others that folks here could tell you about.

Sandy Moss's site sydnassloot also has a terrific bunch of pages on braces from his own collection. Great reading and lots of info.

You could also look at George's Basement if you haven't found it already for great detailed stuff on braces and Miller's Falls drills IIRC. Although the quote above about #2 and #5 sum it up pretty well for those.

I'm no expert but I like braces, have bought 2-3 in the last year - the Stanley and earlier North Bros. 2100/2101 everyone knows about and they now command a premium. If you can find one in good shape they're a lesson in what great hand tools can be like. But Millers Falls also made high quality ones - look for the larger chucks, 770 series braces and some others. And I picked up a Craftsman 10-inch brace marked "BB" (maybe for ball bearing?) that had to have been made by Millers Falls since it's a dead ringer copy of one of their better braces, right down to the Lion chuck. But for maybe half what the same MF would set you back.

Good luck and enjoy the sleuthing - my first slippery step into vintage tools was a set of Jennings auger bits in the 3-tiered wood box... after getting some information right here on Sawmill Creek. I get a kick out of how well they do what they were made to do every time I take them out.;)

Dave

[Alan DuBoff]

I dont think collectors or dealers are willing to pay $50 for a bell system brace or $30 for a 750 chisel.
Not unless you could sell it for more...not to worry, I am not driving the prices up myself, I don't think. :)

[John Powers]

Got a nice No 2 at a flea for $3.00. Guy didn't know what it was and said he liked the smell of my pipe. Still he stared for a moment. It works good. Also keep an eye our for a MF push drill with the fluted bits. They useful to.