Jury rejection questions?

[Toney Robertson]

I applied the the IAC (Indiana arts commission) for the Indiana Artisan Development Project. I was rejected. The information in the rating sheet was not clear in my mind. I am not good at reading between the lines so I wondered if anyone here could help me out.

The jury states "Beautiful wood, nice lines.", "Very well designed – I really like these pieces" and "Evidence of craftsmanship. Some beautiful pieces submitted" but then states "Skilled but lack of consistency in pieces." What would you take from that statement?

"Varied – wanted to see more types" Doesn't that seem to be a contradiction in terms?

Multiple times they stated that they needed to see more samples. I emailed them multiple pictures (the way I understood it you could only submit 5 pictures) of two pieces and then delivered to them in person six pieces. How many pieces should I have taken?

And then to totally confuse me one of the last statements was "Great fit for IADP" and I was rejected.

Any thoughts?

Here are some of the pieces I submitted in person.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj101/iublue/205-5A-1.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj101/iublue/119-19.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj101/iublue/120-20A.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj101/iublue/128-28A.jpg

And here is one of the pieces I submitted by email.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj101/iublue/SpaltedMapleBowl-Picture2.jpg

TIA

Toney

[Jim Becker]

Tony, while these are all very nice turnings, there is nothing that jumps out at me and says, "Tony did these". In the very competitive juried event world, that's pretty important since there are many people who do great work, but a much smaller number who can be readily identified just by seeing the work.

Of these pieces, only the second one made me look twice for some reason...it's visually more unique than the others.

[Brian Brown]

Toney,

I think your work is very nice, and that last piece with the spaulting is stunning. Just a few random thoughts from one who has sat on juries several times (not woodturning). You submitted your work to the Indiana arts commission, nor the Indiana crafts commission. The jury or at least one member said your pieces exhibited craftsmanship, and from the pics, I very much agree. He/she didn't say they exhibited artistry. That doesn't mean the jurist felt that artistry was missing, but that it just didn't really jump out at him. I agree with Jim about there being nothing that stands out (artists refer to this as your style) that say's Toney did these. Maybe that is what the jurist was feeling. As for some of the other comments like "Beautiful wood, nice lines.", "Very well designed – I really like these pieces", "Some beautiful pieces submitted" I would take these comments to mean that you have done well, and even that you may have been close to getting in. As for the lack of consistency comment, the jurist may have meant that your entire submission may have lacked a consistency in work such as the walnut bowl not exhibiting the same degree of craftsmanship/artistry as piece 1 or 2. Only so many pieces can be accepted, and in a mixed media show, there needs to be some effort to make sure that there is a variety of mediums that make it when the quality of the entries warrant it.

Another issue you have to deal with on a jury is that they are human. If they weren't, they could not judge art. Art is subjective, rather than objective. You have to deal with the fact that a jurist's ex-spouse might be a wood turner, or, your piece may have been judged right after lunch, and lunch gave the jurist heart burn. Maybe the jurist just doesn't feel that wood can be art (if that's the case why is he there). So much goes into the jury process. If you use this as a positive experience that will make you work harder, it will benefit you and your work in the end. I have tried very hard when on a jury to keep personal bias out of the equation, and at times have found myself over compensating, which is just as bad.

When it comes to the comments you received from the judges remember they had to make comments to all the entrants on all of the pieces. That takes a lot of time, and jurists have learned to be brief and try to be positive. If all of the comments were negative, no one would ever enter again. Jurists walk a fine line between giving good critique and offending entrants. Artists are sensitive people, and that sensitivity helps them create great art. It also makes some go to pieces at a negative comment in a critique. From the tone of the question you asked above, I would have to say that you are not a "fall apart" type of person.

Keep working at your art, and you'll get there. In my first juried show. I did so well that it scarred me to death. Everything else I did after that, I questioned whether I could meet or beat the quality of my first work. I also knew that all eyes were on me, and every one was watching and waiting to see me fail (at least I felt that), and it showed in my work. I don't know if this was your first attempt, but if it was, not getting in is not the worst thing.

Sorry, I know I am rambling, but one last thought. The only thing harder than entering a juried show, is being on the jury. Each jurist has feelings and experiences that go into making the final decision. They also have biases. They try to put that aside, and come up with a decision based on the merit of the piece. Sometimes one jurist will fight for a piece that he feels strongly about. He doesn't want to dominate the jury, so will only do so on occasion when he feels particularly moved. At times I have fought for a piece, if I feel it is being judged unfairly, almost to the point of bloodshed. But not often. Sometimes good work slips away, just because someone feels he has fought all of his fights for the time being. Sometimes a piece comes up and a jurist just has difficulty articulating what about it is good or bad.

So, the long and short of all of this, is just keep working on it. You'll succeed with time. :) Sorry to be so windy.

[Chris Barnett]

From a novice perspective, art is not usually found in multiples, (i.e. numerous bowls) even perhaps in one artist's lifetime. Art sometimes just happens which causes many young artists-to-be to not become, but a dream.
Although skilled in craft, as above noted, they were apparently pursuing objects of art.
Personally, I prefer craftmanship to art, which is cold.

[Toney Robertson]

Some clarification is in order. The Indiana Artisan Development Program goal is "a program that will support and promote Hoosier artisans and handmade products.". So it is not some upper echelon art show.

Jim and Brian, I was afraid that identification thing was potentially the problem. I assume you mean that Malcolm Tibbetts is associated with segmented pieces. If that was the problem then my ceiling is VERY limited because I can not foresee myself ever limiting myself to one style or form. I am too ADD. :D

Brian, Your response was not windy at all but I evidently hid my true feelings with my words. I don't handle rejection well. The dinning room table was covered with my turnings (>40) and I packed them up and put them in storage. In my younger days I would have burned them. My advanced years make me MUCH more rational now. :rolleyes: I was thinking like you about the positive comments - are they sincere or just fluff meant to lessen the sting of rejection.

I emailed the head of the arts commission and asked if it was possible for some clarification. I realize that is probably not possible. But, if they deemed my pieces not to be artsy enough, I can handle and understand that criticism. If they said my work product was not good enough, I hope they elaborate very specifically because although none of the pieces were perfect (perfection while a goal to strive for is impossible to obtain) I don't know how I could have improved them much in regards to sanding, finish, etc..

Chris, I align more with your point of view about craftsmanship vs. art.

Thanks for the responses.

Off to the shop but turning will have lost some of it's luster for a time.

Toney

[robert hainstock]

From what I have ovserved, and what you have said about your recent expiriences, the Juried "ART" world can be a brutal place. While I can understand your Possibly mistaken belief that your stunning craftsmanship would be appreciated by these folks, apparently there were no turners on the jury. A member of our local turning club went to a local big time, (In thier eyes only) art fair and sold one piece. He was ready to burn his stuff too. I understand that there are turners forums where you will be treated like that. So, heads up, and you will find your niche. Hang in there! :eek::eek::D
Bob

[Steve Schlumpf]

Toney,

I did some checking on the Indiana Artisan Development Program and found:

“The goals of the Indiana Artisan Development Project include: raising awareness about the availability of hand-crafted and value-added food products made in Indiana; providing artisans, particularly those in rural areas, with access to entrepreneurial support; providing grant funding for artisan business development education and networking; promoting artisan trail development and retail opportunities; and developing branding for Indiana-made goods. Program initiatives are aimed at attracting in- and out-of-state visitors to individual artisan sites and arts-concentrated areas in Indiana.” Taken from their site on the web.

Toney, upon further reading, and this may just be my view on all this, but it sure seems they are looking for established businesses/studios that they can assist in marketing their product and most of that is to be geared towards web sales. The ‘attracting visitors to individual artisan sites’ as stated above can only happen with an already established business/studio.

While I can understand your frustration of receiving contradictory remarks on your ‘rejection’ notice, the reality of it is that there are only so many spots available for the support/marketing that they are offering. For you, it is personal, for them it is just business and I mean business, not art – dollars and cents brought into Indiana.

As far as how you personally deal with the ‘rejection’, well that is up to you BUT as a fellow turner who has been rejected more times than accepted to juried ‘Art’ shows, all I can say is don’t give up! You didn’t get this gig cause something better is coming! If you seriously want to be a turner, then keep turning, keep improving, develop your own style and never let anyone EVER take away from your dream!

OK, I’m off the soap box. Have a good night!

[Toney Robertson]

I emailed the head of the project and to my pleasant surprise he returned the email even though it was on a Sunday.

Basically what Jim and Brian said appears to be true. They want turners that have a "specialty". He gave the analogy of a potter "For example a potter might send a cup, a bowl, a plate, a ceramic piece that hangs on a wall, and a vase, and the photos in the application are of equally different pieces. When the jury sees something like that it recognizes it all fits within a definition of “pottery,” but, for example, they question if all the plates the potter makes are of equal quality as the one the one in the photo, or as the sample." I guess I should have only sent them platters since that is probably what I do best at this time.

It really appears that they want production turners/artisans that ONLY do one kind of piece. If that is true, then this program is not for me. I want to do/turn many forms and woods. I want to try my hand at HFs, boxes, vases, etc.. Maybe even segmented. Like I said ADD.

I do appreciate the comments and now that some time has elapsed (my original post was RIGHT after reading my ding email) and with your encouragement my stubbornness has kicked in and I WILL be turning tomorrow at 6:00am just like normal.

Thanks,

Toney

[Curt Fuller]

Toney, I've been an innocent bystander to the world of juried art for a lot of years. My wife is a watercolor artist and we've been through this process more times than I like to remember. Jurors choose what they like, plain and simple. There's often a theme or a direction that the directors of the show or program want to point to. But in the end, it boils down to the fact that whoever they chose to jury the work picks what they like. So don't be discouraged by not being accepted. Next year the same work may or may not be chosen by a different juror. The one thing that we've learned to do is find out prior to submitting work who is jurying the show. They usually have enough credentials that you can google them, find out a little about what they do, and try to submit work that goes in that direction. But it's still a shot-in-the-dark process that relies on the whim of the moment of the person jurying the show. We've also found that shows that are juried by a single person reflect more diversity than shows with multiple jurors. A single juror can pick from anything submitted, while there has to be consensus with a group.

BTW, your work is very nice. Don't give up!

[Jim Becker]

Jim and Brian, I was afraid that identification thing was potentially the problem. I assume you mean that Malcolm Tibbetts is associated with segmented pieces. If that was the problem then my ceiling is VERY limited because I can not foresee myself ever limiting myself to one style or form. I am too ADD

Malcolm isn't known just for segmentation. There are many, many folks who do segmentation. But he's well known for his particular uses of segmentation and most of the time, you know a piece is his by just glancing at it. Bill Smith is also known similarly as someone keenly involved with segmentation. But beyond that, many of his pieces are thin, open segmented pieces using color patterns that are a particular signature for him. You know one of his pieces are his without looking at the name on the bottom.

Molly Winton's unique pyrography is a recognizable signature--and used on a variety of forms. Andi Wolf's use of nature (she's a biologist) makes many of her pieces instantly recognizable. There's a guy in our local AAW chapter who has done a lot of dogwood vessels and bowls that incorporate some leather stiching. See a piece of his on the table and you know it's his.

But I'll bring up one more to make a point: Art Liestman (http://www.artliestman.com/) has several unique signature design/finishing motives that no matter what the form, tell you they are his work. (Be sure to click on his name to see what I mean) Sometimes he even combines them as evidenced by the large puzzle piece with the "window pane" finish.

So...consider using this dialog a catilyst to find some way to differentiate your own work, even in just a small way. Could you take the form or the wood/finish on that second (bowl on pedistal) and carry it onto another piece or three to create a series of related, but not identical works? I picked that one out because frankly, it's the standout of the group in my eyes. As I said before, it made me look twice...and once again a few minutes ago. Is there something there that a year from now (or next week) if I see a photo of your work, I'll know that it's Toney Roberton's? (Or at least recognize that it's work from someone I've seen before if I can't recall your name?)

Finding a "signature" doesn't preclude you from turning a great many different forms. But it's also perfectly fine to not pursue that, either...and just have fun turning. 'Tis a slippery slope no matter how you approach it... :D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Toney,

Keep in mind one thing.....art is subjective. There is no difinitive measure. What I may consider art may be the next door neighbor's trash. What I think is beautiful...you might consider ugly. It's subjective....in a lot of cases it's a matter of personal taste or preference.

Rejection....tough to handle by most folks. Everybody wants to be appreciated for what they do, in your case turn, or their performance..singing..acting etc. While I know you feel bad right now...try to learn from the experience and use the knowledge gained to prepare for the next trial. If you really want to enter juried contests......accept the fact that a lot of really talented people were rejected many times before they found fame and great appreciation for their art and you may have to experience this too. But don't give up....learn from the experience and use the knowledge gained to better prepare for your next attempt.

[Brian Brown]

I do appreciate the comments and now that some time has elapsed (my original post was RIGHT after reading my ding email) and with your encouragement my stubbornness has kicked in and I WILL be turning tomorrow at 6:00am just like normal.

Thanks,

Toney

What's this noise about 6:00 am. Get out there by 5:00am. :D By the way, it's not ADD, it's experimentation and broadening your scope.

[Wilbur Pan]

It really appears that they want production turners/artisans that ONLY do one kind of piece.

I wouldn't look at the tendency to want a certain type of piece to necessarily be a limiting factor. This tendency occurs throughout the art world in general.

I've uploaded pictures of two paintings by one of my favorite artists, Gerhard Richter. The first is a painting of candles done in a style that mimics a soft-focus photograph. The second is an abstract painting using acrylic on aluminum. Clearly two different styles coming from the same artist, but these were done 20 years apart. In the early 1980's, Richter's style was to use this soft focus technique, and his mastery of it was one of the things that put him on the map. Then he moved on to a more abstract phase many years later.

But the point is that he worked on one, and then the other, not simultaneously in ADD mode, as you put it. One of the things you might want to consider is that by sticking with platters for now, you'll not only improve your technique, but you stand a good chance on developing an identifiable style. Once you have that down, move on to bowls, and concentrate on that for a while. Then do some spindle work, and so on. My bet is that getting accepted to juried competitions will be much easier.

Finally, I can see the viewpoint of the judges. If an turner submitted an assortment of bowls and platters of various styles, I wouldn't really know if he was an excellent all around turner, or if he just sent me his best efforts from each category, and was really mediocre at both of them.

[Steven DeMars]

I sure am glad that you guys posted how the "JURIED SHOWS" work . . . Here it is quite simple . . . The same 2 dozen or so people always seem to have "what it takes" . . . I think most people call that a click . . . .

We use to have a wonderful show her called Fest For All . . . It was juried and over the years because of the "click" no one would come here any longer from out of state . . . . . They actually turned people down that were world famous but kept a hand full of "boring" pottery makers who were all local school teachers . . .

Fest For All is now a beer bust like everything else here with street vendors . . . .:mad:

Forget Juried Shows . . . look for shows with busy credit card machines . .

$$$$$$$ is the ultimate for of admiration . . .

[Jim Becker]

Steven, some juried shows indeed end up like you describe, but that's not universal...

[Russ Peters]

I have never done a juried show nor even applied to one, but from what I have read about them and reading the other postings I am having a thought. I know you want to make many types of pieces but maybe the next time you apply to one just make one style, get accepted and have that show on your resume. Reading about juried shows almost seems like the artist/crafter is applying for a job. Not all want to hire someone without experience,
but some are willing to take a chance, and once you have one show on your resume then the next juried show you apply for you can expand your line of work to include more things because you are then an "accepted artist" in that community and then you are "expanding your horizons". Just a rambling thought.

[Frank Kobilsek]

Russ is right on. In the past I would enter pictures of the variety of work I do (read, enjoy) and get rejected 3 out of 4. This past year I enter fewer shows but for each I sent only one look. One show I sent dyed maple pieces, another I sent the hand-fluted pieces, and another yet inlaid platters, and was accepted all around. A pro artists freind told me they call it 'A consistent body of work'. A signature look like Jim mentioned of Winton or Wolf or Priddle or the Burns finial is even better than the 'consistent body of work' but not drop dead nessecary.

Craft vs. Art? Think about it this way; a craftsman can produce many well made beautiful things. An Artist makes one thing beautiful. Don't confuse a well developed concept being produced by an artist as production work, rather growth of the idea and vission.

Frank

[Toney Robertson]

Frank,

'A consistent body of work' seems to be exactly what they are looking for. Not being from art world, I don't really understand it but I can accept it. In my world (construction) if I can build a house I can also do an addition or remodel a kitchen or change a front door with equal skill.

I assumed (there is that nasty word) that sending them a variety of work would show them that no matter the shape, I could turn it and produce a quality product. Obviously I was wrong.

Live and learn.

Toney

[Reed Gray]

I found the comment from the project head a bit confusing. For me, borrowing a quote from Robert Heinlein, "specialization is for insects!" Jurying for shows is a crap shoot, you never really know what to expect. Two important things also on most applications are: what other shows have you done, and an artists statement. These can have as much impact as your photos. For me, I turn mostly bowls, but also hollow forms, natural edge bowls, and boxes. Mostly practicle stuff. Don't give up, apply to some other shows, and keep up the good work. Nothing wrong with your stuff. Go to the show if you can, and see just exactly what the other artists who got in have.
robo hippy

[Tom Keen]

I think your work is beautiful.. Enter another show with the same pieces and see what the result is. Ive done a few of these things.. Similar to another story.. the first one I was a major hit. The last one nada. And I thought the stuff the judge picked wasnt very good.

Dont let it get to you. I was scared to death the first few times I let anyone evaluate my work. I still get nervous and it still hurts when they make any suggestion that seems negative to me. Just not as much as it did the first time.

Thanks for sharing your story with us!!!

[Gary Max]

Here's a question----what are you going to do different next year????
Some juried shows take years to get into.

[Toney Robertson]

Gary,

If that question was directed at me then my answer would be that I would pick one turning type and submit ONLY those pieces. Seems that is what the judges wanted.

I don't know if I will resubmit on not.

Toney

[Robert McGowen]

From the tone of this thread, I would guess that you would not feel any WORSE if you were turned down again, so you only have one way to go from here! :rolleyes: I think you should stick with your plan of being the best at one particular style, get some awesome wood, and show'em what they missed this year. Good luck!

[Phillip Bogle]

One of the items about a juried show that hasn't been mentioned is the show itself. The jury knows what they are putting together and sometimes the mix or the entire show is what matters and not the individual artist. The show has to attract visitors/patrons. If the show has too much of one style or medium, the show itself will be boring. The jury has the mission of making the show interesting. If your work is very good (and I think it is) but there are two artists of the same medium and same (or similar) body of work, they will go with one and not the other. Sometimes that "other guy" is one that has a well known name or even just a guy that did well last year. The mission here is to bring in the visitors. What ever draws or balances out the show. I personally think that you weren't rejected as much as you were not included in the show. There is a difference. Your challenge in the future is to some how convince the jury that your work will attract people and get folks out of the house and in the door.
I made a living for 30 years in art. We put our soul and heart on the line and let folks judge us by our work. To be subjected to personal whims and tastes at every turn is tough. Do not let someone elses opinion stop you from achieving your goals.

[Tom Sontag]

One other aspect of this strikes me: why enter only one show? It might be the jury that does not mesh with your style, it might be the goals of the show differ from your vision, it could be a zillion things. World class artists get rejected from juried shows; I know a local glass blower who was rejected and one of his former protege's (whose work is a poor copy of the master) got in.

This whole process is too random to put all of your emotional eggs into one basket. Enter 5 or 6, using what lessons you think you have learned from this experience. Caution though: no matter how often you get accepted, rejection will always feel like this. It is the nature of the game you are playing.

[Gary Max]

I know of one big juried Art show that has No wood at all---they just don't like wood.
Makes no sense to me but it's true. I just got accepted to a show that has taken me 5 years and 5 attempts to get in.
Why mess with it-----$$$$$$$$$----that's why I do shows to make a living. We don't make DVD's or teach classes so the money to pay bills has to come from somewhere. It would be nice to do shows just to show off but for us that's not the case.

[Brodie Brickey]

'A consistent body of work'

In the world of the artist, collectors have tendency to get an artist's piece. They really like it, and they get another. If the two have some similarities that 'tie' them together it is deemed more desireable. Think of the encyclopedia britanica, you don't just get the 'G' volume. You get the entire collection.

Many artists, produce a series of 5 -20 pieces that may contain a theme. Once they've done that, they can move on to another piece. An artistic 'one off' is really the artist trying something new, if he/she likes it, they will produce a series out of it.

[Toney Robertson]

From the tone of this thread, I would guess that you would not feel any WORSE if you were turned down again, so you only have one way to go from here! :rolleyes: I think you should stick with your plan of being the best at one particular style, get some awesome wood, and show'em what they missed this year. Good luck!


Robert,

"I would guess that you would not feel any WORSE if you were turned down again". I had to laugh at that one and you are right!

Thanks for brightening my day.

Toney