Circuit breakers?

[Laurie Brown]

After overloading a circuit in the garage while ripping a sheet of plywood, I searched high and low trying to find which breaker had been tripped. I finally looked at the main switch that sends power to the garage, and inside, no breakers but two old style glass fuses!!

http://www.aerth.org/Downloads/fuses1.jpg

There are only two, both 25 amps, that go to all the outlets in the garage. Would it be terribly difficult to remove these and replace them with breakers? Is it something I could do myself?

[David Freed]

I have seen cicuit breakers that will screw into a fuse socket like the one in your picture. It had a button in the center that would pop out when it tripped. To reset it you just pushed the button back in. I don't remember how long ago that was, and I don't even know if they are still available, but if you could find them that would be the easiest (and probably cheapest) fix. If I find a source, I will let you know.


I found them here - http://www.kenselectronics.com/lists/fuses.htm, but not in the right amperage. At least they are still available.


Household Cartridge FusesHousehold Edison Screw-in style Fuses and Mini-Breakers
EBS-20MB Edison Base Screw-in resettable 20 Amp Mini Breaker for fusebox$9.70

http://www.kenselectronics.com/picturer/20mb.jpg

[Mike Cutler]

Would it be terribly difficult to remove these and replace them with breakers? Is it something I could do myself?

Yes they can be replaced with breaker. Whether you could, or should do it yourself would really be up to you, and how comfortable you are working with electricity.
If you don't have any experience I would recommend hiring a local licensed electrician. Realize that you are popping a 25 amp fuse with a table saw. That's a lot of current. There may an underlying issue with why that fuse blew.

Then again, Those fuses are still available everywhere, Why not just replace the fuse once? If you keep blowing the fuse though, I'd definitely call in an electrician?

[Rollie Meyers]

You have issues in that safety switch, unless the switch is rated for 2 conductors per lug (And I doubt that) you have a bit of a problem w/ double lugging plus 25 ampere fuses on what looks to be 12 AWG is overfusing. On the other hand that switch is a Federal Pacific Electric :Dand not Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) Stab-Lok® circuit breaker, they have a reputation of never tripping in a short circuit or overload situation.

[Laurie Brown]

Yes they can be replaced with breaker. Whether you could, or should do it yourself would really be up to you, and how comfortable you are working with electricity.
If you don't have any experience I would recommend hiring a local licensed electrician. Realize that you are popping a 25 amp fuse with a table saw. That's a lot of current. There may an underlying issue with why that fuse blew.

Then again, Those fuses are still available everywhere, Why not just replace the fuse once? If you keep blowing the fuse though, I'd definitely call in an electrician?

I've replaced ungrounded outlets in my home before with grounded ones, running ground wires to the basement. I'm comfortable trying anything as long as I have information on what to do. I'm wondering if it's as simple as taking the wires currently attached to the fuse blocks and attaching them to a circuit breaker instead.

The reason the fuse blew is because the blade on my saw got jammed against the wood while ripping an 8 foot long sheet of plywood improperly. ;) I'm in the process of making a new large outfeed table that will take care of that problem in the future, but for now I have to work with what I have while building said table. I don't expect to be blowing the fuses all the time, especially once the table is done, but it's the only place in the house that has fuses instead of breakers, and if a breaker blows I can just reset it instead of replacing it. We lived in an old house once that had fuses and it was a real pain replacing them, it always seemed when we needed a fuse we didn't have any and had to run out to the hardware store.

It's not a real big issue, but more of a convenience thing. I thought it if wasn't anything really complicated to do I could just swap it out.

I also have a 220 line running out to the garage from when someone used to use an arc welder out there. Would there be any advantage to switching my saw to run on 220?

[Laurie Brown]

You have issues in that safety switch, unless the switch is rated for 2 conductors per lug (And I doubt that) you have a bit of a problem w/ double lugging plus 25 ampere fuses on what looks to be 12 AWG is overfusing. On the other hand that switch is a Federal Pacific Electric :Dand not Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) Stab-Lok® circuit breaker, they have a reputation of never tripping in a short circuit or overload situation.

Ok... can you translate that to English for me? ;) Are you saying it was wired up improperly to begin with?

[Von Bickley]

Laurie,

It looks like you only have one 120 volt circuit feeding that panel. I would be checking to see where that power is fed from, what size wire it is and what size breaker is feeding that panel.

If you have a 220 volt circuit going to your garage, check and see what size wire is going to that receptacle and what size breaker is on that. It may be to your advantage to use that circuit to feed a small panel.

You could probably do this yourself with some guidance from the SMC members.

[Jim Becker]

I gotta suggest that you probably should have this at least inspected by a licensed electrician. Even if you end up doing any remedial work yourself, you can have a plan and someone to check the work.

[Tom Veatch]

...I also have a 220 line running out to the garage from when someone used to use an arc welder out there. Would there be any advantage to switching my saw to run on 220?

If that circuit was used for an arc welder, it's probably a 50 amp circuit. Check the breaker. You could use it directly to power your saw if the motor can be rewired for 240 and if you put a properly rated plug on the power cord.

Or, it may be that you can use the existing circuit to power a subpanel, especially if wired with 3 conductors + ground. If it was installed specifically for a welder, it's probably 2 + ground which could present difficulties if you wanted any 120v circuits in the subpanel. You'd need to have a local electrician take a look at the exact situation.

Is there an advantage to running the saw on 240v? That subject has been beaten to death in any number of threads. I think at last gasp, this (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=91917) is the latest. My opinion is that it's always better to use the highest voltage possible and available. That opinion is not universally held however.

[David G Baker]

Laurie,
I agree with the suggestion that you need to have someone that is "very" experienced with electrical work check out the wiring in your fuse box, preferably a licensed electrician. The wiring looks wrong. It looks like the neutral and ground are fastened together, this is okay in some situations but not in a sub-panel that is in the same structure as the main panel. The wiring of the black wire looks wrong and is wired in a way that I can not understand the purpose.
Please for your safety have it checked out.

[Rollie Meyers]

Ok... can you translate that to English for me? ;) Are you saying it was wired up improperly to begin with?


Yes.:D Most (there are exceptions) lugs are rated for 1 wire per lug when you have 2 that is a sign of hack work, get a licensed electrical contractor to look at it.

[Mike Cutler]

I also have a 220 line running out to the garage from when someone used to use an arc welder out there. Would there be any advantage to switching my saw to run on 220?

Laurie

As for the "fuse box" . It has some interesting wiring going on in it. Doesn't make it wrong per-se, but having a 2D photo only to look at there are some clarity problems. It certainly can be changed to a conventional breaker box, but there are a lot of NEC requirements to adhere to. It would be a lot of research on your part, but nothing you couldn't do.

Do you have a 240 welding receptacle in your garage? or some form of 240 service?

If you do, and that circuit is properly installed, it should be protected with a fairly good sized breaker at the main panel. This circuit may be able to be modified to install a sub panel on it and branch off into smaller individual circuits. Something to consider. Before I went after the fuse panel. I'd be looking at this circuit for the convenience factor.

The advantages to switching to 240 for motors is, as Tom stated, been beaten to death.
The theoretical advantage is carrying less current in any single conductor, the total current(nominal) stays the same though. Reducing the current in a single conductor would theoretically decrease the amount of heat generated in that single conductor because of the opposition to current flow, in mHos, offered by the conductor.
Mho's, or Siemans is a unit of measure to express the opposition of a material to current flow, in this case the copper conductor.
The conductor also has an "Ohm" value, or resistance. The longer the conductor, the greater the resistance, Ohm's, offered to the circuit. This is the measure typically associated with voltage drop in electrical discussions.
Mho's (siemans) and Ohms are the inverse of each other.
When a conductor becomes too long in length. The total Ohms offered by the conductor will cause the voltage to "sag", or drop. This will cause the current in the conductor to increase to maintain the power load demand (motor) on the circuit.

Lot of gobbeldygook eh? and we haven't even started on velocity propagation:eek: (I work on very large motors for the day job, up to 15,000hp, powered off of 6.9KV. I can bore you to tears talking about motors)

The short answer is, in a small shop environment, with small motors, the electrical advantage is very minimal. The loads are not large enough, the ambient environment is not challenging the ratings, the conductors are sized properly and are of short runs.

Rick Christopherson, here on the board, has an excellent website with a section devoted to shop electrical information, and motors. It's an excellent site, with very good info. I highly recommend any woodworker checking it out.
http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/

Rick makes a good argument for putting dual voltage motors of a nominal 2 hp on 240 circuits. The power, in watts, for a 2hp motor is enough to challenge the rating on 20 amp, 120 circuit breaker. Motors smaller than that can be run on 120 all day long, but can be switched to 240 for convenience. Almost all of my motors are wired for 240, just for the sake of convenience. I have 240/20 amp receptacles throughout my garage and shop, so I can plug any of the machines in wherever I need to.

I would switch your saw to 240 just for the sake of convenience,and to get it off that suspect fuse circuit arrangement.

[Laurie Brown]

Inside the house on the main breaker panel are two breakers for the garage, a 50 amp and a 60 amp. I imagine one goes to the 220 line, and the other goes to this little 2-fuse panel. The 220 line was obviously added on much later, and the fuse box is the original panel put in the garage. The 220 line coming into the garage goes into it's own circuit breaker panel (I'll snap a picture of it later today), and there is lots of room in that box for expansion.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Laurie, from the photo it looks like the line side of the switch was paralleled from either the 50 or 60 ampere breaker you described.

The incoming wire on the line side of the switch doesn't look large enough for 50 amperes. This could be a serious fire safety issue.

You should have an electrician look at the installation and provide comments.

I also have a fuse panel, and haven't changed it to breakers because fuses offer me a choice of time/current parameters, and unlike cheap molded case breakers, they always work.

Regards, Rod.

[Laurie Brown]

Here is a shot of the circuit breaker in the garage that houses the 220 line. The 50 amp breaker on the upper right is the one in use, the receptacle for the 220 line is that black box on the side. Below the 50 amp breaker are four 20 amp breakers and to the upper left is a 30 amp breaker, and as far as I know none of them are currently in use. I'd have to open up the box to be sure.

http://www.aerth.org/Downloads/breakers1.jpg

[Mike Cutler]

Laurie

If that sub panel isn't being used for anything other than supplying that welding outlet. I'd be inclined to use it. I'd just come off of that 30 amp 220 with a circuit for use with the TS.

[Andy Casiello]

Laurie

If that sub panel isn't being used for anything other than supplying that welding outlet. I'd be inclined to use it. I'd just come off of that 30 amp 220 with a circuit for use with the TS.

I agree that I'd use that panel if those 20A breakers are dormant. The next thing I'd do is replace the wiring to the receptacles around the shop with appropriate wiring back to that panel - and disconnect and eliminate that old dual-fuse arrangement.

[Rollie Meyers]

Here is a shot of the circuit breaker in the garage that houses the 220 line. The 50 amp breaker on the upper right is the one in use, the receptacle for the 220 line is that black box on the side. Below the 50 amp breaker are four 20 amp breakers and to the upper left is a 30 amp breaker, and as far as I know none of them are currently in use. I'd have to open up the box to be sure.

http://www.aerth.org/Downloads/breakers1.jpg

Just seeing the safety switch & this panel means all I can recommend to call a licensed electrical contractor, the way that power outlet sits on the side makes me cringe on what lurks under the cover.