Cabinet size question

[Ray Schafer]

OK, I am now going to actually build the shop cabinets that I talked about a while back. I am going to build them just like kitchen cabinets -- as practice for the cabinets that I am going to build for my office this winter. Here is my quick question:

What size to you recommend for the cabinets? The height will be dictated by the clearance (about 40 inches). Most of the standard kitchen cabinets that I have seen are 12 inches deep -- which seems to shallow. Also, I don't know what would be the optimal width. I have about 8 to 10 feet of wall to play with.

So:
1) what depth?
2) what width?

(I know that "it depends", but just looking for some quick suggestions.)

Ray

[Steve Clardy]

Normal kitchen upper cabs for me.

I rip my ply sides to 11 1/4"
3/4 face
1/4 back

Cabinet depth is 12 1/4"

This gives you 12" inside the cabinets

It also lets you get 4 rips from a sheet of plywood, with a strip left.


Nothing wrong with building them deeper.

If you want them 15" deep, that cuts your rips on plywood down to 3, so you need to figure in more material.

[Scott Loven]

Lay it out on a piece of paper and figure where you will get your best yield on a sheet of plywood. 12-18 for upper, 24 for the base is what I am looking at for some cabinets I am going to build.
Scott

[Joe Scharle]

I suggest a look a sites like this (http://www.doityourself.com/stry/cabinetoverview) and others like it.

[Ed Peters]

my standard uppers are 14" deep including face frame. They start at 54" off the level floor line and run to the ceiling. most standard base units are 24" deep including face frame and stand about 35.25" tall including the 3" toe kick.

I might suggest that you go to www.cabinetplanner.com and test drive their software with the cabinets you are proposing. It will give you a cut list and shop plans to work with for free. I don't remember how many times you get to use it before you need to but, I think it was 3 days when I was shopping. Now, I wouldn't build anything without it.


Ed

[Ray Schafer]

I should have specifically said that I am building wall cabinets and not base cabs. I am trying to decide only on the dimensions. I have the other parameters (joinery, etc) figured out.

[Jim Becker]

Depth should be a function on how the cabinets will be used tempered with efficient material usage. (saw kerfs are involved in that) What you want to store and how you want to store within the cabinets is critical to the design dimensions.

Many typical kitchen uppers out there are in the 12-13" deep range, but that's not necessarily the ideal for that application when you take into consideration the side of dinner platters these days, etc. (I made the mistake of making my kitchen cabinets in 2003 only 12" deep inside the doors...) Lately, I've been making uppers more in the 15" total depth range. I did that for our wet bar and for my office and that dimension worked well. I would probably use that size as a starting point for cabinets in my shop "in general", but again, exactly what the purpose would be could modify that significantly.

Width is also dictated by use and preferred door configurations if doors are in play. Sometimes a single door is better for a given use and sometimes a double door is better. Single doors shouldn't be wider than a certain dimension for both hanging weight on the hinges and for practical reasons...they stick out farther and can unexpectedly whack you in the head/eye easier, depending on cabinet height.

[Ray Schafer]

Thanks everyone for your input.

I think that I will make mine 15" in total depth. I am using the Danny Proulx method for Frameless Cabinets and I am planning to use double doors on each. I think that I will make the cabinets 24 inches wide -- so that will give me 12 inch doors.

[Ray Schafer]

OK, changed my mind. I am going with:
15 inches deep (total: 3/4" frame + 14.25 side)
30 inches wide
42 inches high

Prefinished plywood (3/4)
Face Frame -- oak
Frame and panel doors
Doors attached with Eurohinges
Screwed carcass (using Ultimates or Spax)
Doweled face frame
Face frame attached with pocket screws
1/2" Plywood back in a dado
Adjustable shelves (using a pin drilling jig that I made)


This is almost exactly what I want in my office, so it should be great practice.

[Jim Becker]

Inset doors or overlay? If the former, you can "trick" the project into thinking you have frame less and not have to deal with the attachment fun using face-frame Euro hinges. How? Space the carcass boxes such that the inside edge of the cabinet box is flush with the inside edge of your face frames.

And consider building your face frames first. This technique is detailed in the latest issue of Woodworking Magazine...and makes a whole lot of sense to me since reading through it twice. You key and measure everything else off the face frames for a perfect match.

[Chris McDowell]

I agree with Jim on building the faceframes first. It's the best way to go. All your carcass diemensions and door sizes will reference from your faceframe. I usually build the faceframes and the doors first. Takes up less space in the shop. I would rather walk around frames and stacks of doors than cabinets.

I've had enough people PM me about how I build cabinets I'm thinking about taking the pics on the current job I just started to document everything for a cabinet making thread. If anybody thinks it would be of interest, I'd be glad to do it. Besides it would be a great way to show off the slider in hot cabinet making action,LOL.:D

[William OConnell]

Ok I'll chime in . Almost all standard cabinet dimensions (also known as stock sizes) are made with material use efficiency in mind.Sheet goods are normally 4 by 8 hence alot of stuff being 1 'finish 2' finish etc, I hate waste, which leads me to not being able to throw these little rips of plywood away which leads to clutter. I would make the wall cabinets 15 3/4" ( 3 rips) worth of plywood and 3/4" worth of face frame so they would e 16 1/2". Normally stock cainet uppers are 12" but full uppers are 42" so are most butlers pantrys. The reason they are 42" is because you can get two pieces out of a sheet and still have enough left over for carcass pieces for uppers.
Anyway thats my story and I'm sticking to it

[Jim Becker]

I've had enough people PM me about how I build cabinets I'm thinking about taking the pics on the current job I just started to document everything for a cabinet making thread. If anybody thinks it would be of interest, I'd be glad to do it. Besides it would be a great way to show off the slider in hot cabinet making action,LOL.

Yes, please do that, Chris.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Ray Schafer]

Ditto what Jim said -- please do, Chris.

I am one of the people who PMed Chris and I really like his approach. I have studied Danny Proulx and Jim Tolpin's books and they gave me some ideas, as well. But Chris really helped me decide exactly how I was going to do my cabinets. I am anxious to see the thread with the pictures!

[Ray Schafer]

OK, I went to buy materials for my shop cabinets. I planned to buy the prefinished plywood and Oh My Gosh! It is more expensive than GOLD! OK, that is exaggerating, but I was not going to pay $100 per sheet for shop cabinet material. I decided to use the borg Birch that I have in my garage.

The only problem with that plan was that I stopped at the big box stores and they did not carry 1/2" plywood that I want to use for the backs! ARG! I did not have time to go back to the cabinet supply place that I was at earlier, so I am going to use the 1/2 OSB and 1 piece of leftover 1/2 Birch that I have. Every project throws me a curve!

I changed the face frame to maple. I will take Jim's suggestion and make the face frames first and make them even with the inside side of the carcass.

[Bill Keppel]

I agree with Jim on building the faceframes first. It's the best way to go. All your carcass diemensions and door sizes will reference from your faceframe. I usually build the faceframes and the doors first. Takes up less space in the shop. I would rather walk around frames and stacks of doors than cabinets.

I've had enough people PM me about how I build cabinets I'm thinking about taking the pics on the current job I just started to document everything for a cabinet making thread. If anybody thinks it would be of interest, I'd be glad to do it. Besides it would be a great way to show off the slider in hot cabinet making action,LOL.:D

Chris,

I would appreciate a thread documenting your cabnet poroject.

[Peter Quinn]

Have you considered drawing this whole thing up first? There is a temptation among wood workers to get in the shop and 'GET ER DONE', push some wood through the machines, make progress! Avoid that temptation. Though this advice is a bit late I suggest you don't purchase anything until you have a set of working drawings that detail every aspect of construction, including hardware choices which often dictate some construction details. Doesn't sound like fun to you, sitting at the drafting (or dining room) table drawing ever detail ad noisome? Pencils are cheap, computers are rigid and encourage focus, drawing forces you to consider how things will lie, how much material will be necessary, if things will fit. You don't have to win a prize in drafting, just make some schetches, and then some story poles. One for elevations, one for width, one for depth, full size.

I say this not because it is required for shop cabinets, but if you are using this as an exercise to prepare for a more complicated project where it will be necessary, you may as well practice all aspects of the work. Good cabinet projects start with good drawings, not lots of sawdust. I'm of the mindset that if you can't draw it you probably can't build it either. Or at least its not going to come out exactly as you planned. Make the bulk of your mistakes on paper. Much cheaper.

Without meaning to insult other methods, building frames first and pulling carcass details from those is a crutch I am not comfortable with. If your plans are good, and you can work from a set of plans, then the order in which you build becomes irrelevant.

[Ray Schafer]

Thanks for the suggestion. I have drawn this up so many times, I am having nightmares about it! I know exactly what I need, but I am trying to keep the cost down.

I know that everyone has their own opinions about the best way to go forward and I don't argue that frame first, or carcass first is the best way. I have seen the approach that Jim and Chris suggest in several articles and books. I am not sure why you think it is a crutch, though. If it is easy, why not do it?

[glenn bradley]

I find cabinets deeper than 18" are good for hiding stuff. Things can hide for years back there. For user storage; routers, sanders, stuff you walk up and grab, use and put back . . 12" seems fine for me. My .02

[Robert Chapman]

Check this web site for standard cabinet sizes www.woodbin.com/ref/furniture/cabinets.htm (http://www.woodbin.com/ref/furniture/cabinets.htm)

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks for the suggestion. I have drawn this up so many times, I am having nightmares about it! I know exactly what I need, but I am trying to keep the cost down.

I know that everyone has their own opinions about the best way to go forward and I don't argue that frame first, or carcass first is the best way. I have seen the approach that Jim and Chris suggest in several articles and books. I am not sure why you think it is a crutch, though. If it is easy, why not do it?

Accurate drawings and story poles are ways to keep cost down. Minimize missteps and mistakes that will cost you money. I hate drawing but it is very helpful when you get into a larger more complicated cabinet project.

I consider the suggestion that you should pull measurements from frames for carcass dimensions a crutch. It says you have not planned out the project and has the air of winging it. Hard to maximize your panel cuts pulling measurements for one box at a time. You can't see the whole story.

At work one guy makes the frames while another guy makes the boxes and they are then joined while possibly another guy makes all the doors and drawer fronts. Those parts all fit together because they were made accurately to match drawings and a story pole that was created from actual dimensions taken from the installation area.

I have several good books on cabinet making, the one that sticks out in my mind is Jim Tolpin's Guide to Becoming a Pro Cabinet Maker. IIR He suggests building frames first, carcasses dead last, for space concerns in a small shop. A stack of frames takes up little space, a pile of boxes gets huge fast and may be best made last. In a big shop its probably irrelevant.

I like Jim's suggestion for building boxes flush with face frames to accommodate euro hardware on inset doors. IME the FF Half Crank euro hinges are a bit large and clumsy compared to the frameless type. But should it matter if you build boxes first and build frames to match or vice versa? Seems easier to fit frames to boxes than vice versa. Further, do you really need to flush both sides of the case to the frame, or just the hinge side? No real need to flush the other side that I can see except visual?

I meant no insult in referring to the frame first method as a crutch, I use crutches in one form or another in most of my work. Do what works for you. But I feel if you are forced to build frames first in leu of designing the whole project accurately you are selling your self short. Perhaps a good MDF template for each door opening is a good idea? Use them to make the boxes, face frames and doors.

Really for shop cabs I'd be real relaxed, make them from cheap materials, and just use it as an exercise to understand the process and improve technique. Play like a child on that one with no stress or expectations. Good way to learn a lot and have some fun.

[Ray Schafer]

Peter, no offense taken. You make some very good points. YOu are obviously much more experienced than I am.

What is your opion on the use of melamine for cabinets? I am going to make cabinets for my office (in my house). I see that all of my kitchen cabinets (two years old -- new house) have melamine carcasses and cherry fronts.

I guess where I stand on melamine at this point is -- for utility cabinets I would use melamine, and for "nice cabinets" -- my office, kitchen, etc. -- I would use plywood.