Formica on MDF for outfeed table?

[Michael Donahue]

It seems that you usually see formica over particle board, and that's the route I went for the router extension I'm making for my table saw. I ran out of particle board though but I have a bunch of 3/4" MDF. Is there any reason I can't use this? Thanks folks!

[Steve Clardy]

Rough sand the MDF first before applying your glue.
Its not as porous as PB

Other than that, no problem;)

[John Gregory]

I think MDF will work great! I made my TS wings with a built-in router using 3/4" MDF and Formica. My outfeed table is skinned with 1/2" MDF that is sealed with a poly finish. Still looking good after 6 years of use. When I rebuild my outfeed someday, I will use Melamine or formica to make cleanup easier since it is an assembly table as well.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...extension I'm making for my table saw...ran out of particle board...have...3/4" MDF...any reason I can't use this?"

One of the few "good uses" for both PL and MDF.... MDF actually makes a great underlayment for PL. It's denser (harder) and flatter than PB, holds screws better etc,

IMMHO.....

[Neal Clayton]

yeah i made my outfeed tables with it too. i just screwed masonite to it without any glue and countersunk the screws. never been a fan of making shop tables out of expensive wood. nice thing about MDF and particle board is when they're beaten beyond any hope of salvage, it only takes 10 mins to make a new one ;).

[John Thompson]

I used formica (or whatever they call it now) over MDF on a router table top I built 6 years ago. I expected it to sag as I was looking for an excuse for a high $$ top. Checked it about a year ago and still sitting at no more than .002 in any spot.

And... I have used 3/4" MDF with 3 heavy coats of poly for years on TS side and rear extentions without bothering with the formica. I just made a rear and front extention to rip on for a new saw within the last few days. It works fine alone IMO.

Sarge..

[Howard Acheson]

When MDF first came out, we switched almost all our countermaking to MDF laminated with formica. It's an excellent substrate and does not need to be sanded. In fact, it's more porous than particleboard. Therefore, you will have to double apply your contact cement. Personally, I much prefer solvent based contact cement.

[Eugene Wigley]

I have made several tables for the shop using MDF and formica. I also used 1-1/8" MDF and formica banded with walnut when I did the cabinets in my reloading room. I have reloading presses mounted on those counter tops and have had no problems.

[William OConnell]

It seems that you usually see formica over particle board, and that's the route I went for the router extension I'm making for my table saw. I ran out of particle board though but I have a bunch of 3/4" MDF. Is there any reason I can't use this? Thanks folks!

If I had my drothers I prefer MDF (lightweight) over particle board for Mica work. As a matter of fact, and this is just a suggestion now that you ran out of PB don't restock it. Ant time Ive ever used it I just felt dirty. I'm not sure why

[Peter Quinn]

I would use MDF with a coat of shellac and wax for an outfeed table, skip the formica, replace that sucker in 15 years when it wears out, spare your self the work, the cost, the fumes and the trouble. Or you could go with melamine on MDF or chip board, again sparing the labor and expense. Nothing wrong with formica, makes a nice surface, but then again so would a granite slab, so where do you draw the line? Call me lazy, call me cheap, call me a frugal yankee, I won't spend 10 extra dollars or ten extra minutes on that type of shop work. I'll spend days making jigs from phenolic, but not on outfeed tables.

[Tom Veatch]

...I have a bunch of 3/4" MDF. Is there any reason I can't use this?...

That's what I used under Formica for my router table, table saw outfeed table, drill press table, miter saw station, and maybe a few other places that don't come immediately to mind. Standard Formica installation techique - contact cement on both surfaces per directions on the can and stick 'em together. First time was about 5 years ago. No problems so far.

[Paul Girouard]

There's more than one type of Particle board , high density is the substrate stuff 'regular' PB is for under-layment( used under sheet vinyl / AKA Linoleum / kitchen and bathroom common flooring).


As far a using MDF as a substrate, sure it's fine. Sanded or not, double coating is a good idea , especially on any self edge , if your appling one.

BTW "Formica" is a brand name of plastic laminate / high density plastic laminate , there are others Wilson Art , Pionite, Nevermar , all are P. Lam.

[John Lucas]

and Michael, Formica is available as counter or vertical grade. The vertical grade is less expensive and available in 4 x 8' sheets. I use it on shop surfaces. It is plenty good and is very smooth.

[Matt Ocel]

John -

Not to be a Cliff Claven but,

The generic name would be "High Pressure Laminate"

[Paul Girouard]

John -

Not to be a Cliff Claven but,

The generic name would be "High Pressure Laminate"



I think I just said that Sammy! Or something similar , ( see post 12) Where Rebeccia? She sure has put on some weight eh :D

[Matt Ocel]

Sorry bout dat-

I stand corrected.

[Paul Girouard]

Sorry bout dat-

I stand corrected.



Oh I didn't say you where wrong , in fact your post was more correct than mine. BUT I think no matter how many times we say "it's P.Lam / high pressure laminate" , it will continue to be called Formica by most people. :rolleyes: :D

Sorta like the sill vs. stool definition on another thread. :D

Yes, stool, is more than likely the right term for the part of a window "sill" that's inside the building BUT I think most people would look for a "stool" in the toilet , or hopefully in the toilet :D

Sill / stool , P.Lam / Formice, Soda / Coke. The list goes on.

[Matt Ocel]

Paul -
I follow your thinking. There could be a whole thread on calling things by the incorrect name.

The one that bothers me the most is when people in the trades call all "Laminated Veneer Lumber" - "Micro Lams".

[Peter Quinn]

Oh I didn't say you where wrong , in fact your post was more correct than mine.

Sorta like the sill vs. stool definition on another thread. :D

Yes, stool, is more than likely the right term for the part of a window "sill" that's inside the building BUT I think most people would look for a "stool" in the toilet , or hopefully in the toilet :D

Sill / stool , P.Lam / Formice, Soda / Coke. The list goes on.

Nit picker here. In that other thread I did say the gentleman was wrong, and he was. If you make a 'sill' from interior material, it will fail. Windows have a language that is specific, this is not a matter of semantics. I have had carpenters with some experience send me drawings of custom 'sills' that were in fact stools. Nothing wrong IMO with learning and using the terms.

Formica might be a brand of high pressure laminate, but a stool is not a type of sill. They are in fact two unique parts of a window system.

[Paul Girouard]

Nit picker here. In that other thread I did say the gentleman was wrong, and he was. If you make a 'sill' from interior material, it will fail. Windows have a language that is specific, this is not a matter of semantics. I have had carpenters with some experience send me drawings of custom 'sills' that were in fact stools. Nothing wrong IMO with learning and using the terms.

Formica might be a brand of high pressure laminate, but a stool is not a type of sill. They are in fact two unique parts of a window system.



Your right , of course . But sometimes a guy has to go with the flow , educating clients about construction terms , even common ones like sill and stool can get , ah, tedious to say the least. :D

One my boss is "hot on" is the difference between a 'deck' and a 'porch', would you want to take a guess at the "difference" between the two? I'd like to hear your take , to see if it matches his.

[Matt Ocel]

A Porch has a roof.

A Deck doesn't.

Would be my guess.

[Paul Girouard]

A Porch has a roof.

A Deck doesn't.

Would be my guess.





Nope.

Interesting you have to use at least 10 characters to post. So much for short, sweet answers :rolleyes: :D

[Matt Ocel]

I believe I had it right for the most part.


I googled Porch vs. Deck.
This is what they had.


Porch
· A porch is a permanent structure covered with a roof, and is permanently affixed to the principal structure.
· A porch may be erected in the front, side or rear yards.
· A porch is considered part of the principle structure and must meet all setback requirements stipulated in the zoning code.
· A porch is a one story structure.
ii. Deck
· A deck is an elevated open structure/platform.
· A deck may be erected in the side or rear yard.
· A deck must meet all setback requirements

[Paul Girouard]

I believe I had it right for the most part.


I googled Porch vs. Deck.
This is what they had.


Porch
· A porch is a permanent structure covered with a roof, and is permanently affixed to the principal structure.
· A porch may be erected in the front, side or rear yards.
· A porch is considered part of the principle structure and must meet all setback requirements stipulated in the zoning code.
· A porch is a one story structure.
ii. Deck
· A deck is an elevated open structure/platform.
· A deck may be erected in the side or rear yard.
· A deck must meet all setback requirements


Ah, No. :D Still missing a key element.

[Matt Ocel]

I can drink a beer on a porch in the rain without getting wet, and on a deck I can't?

[Matt Ocel]

Paul -
Ya got me thinkin.
So I pulled out the code book (IRC 2000) I haven't got the "06" yet.

There is no definition for Porch, which I thought was pecurliar.

There is a definition for Deck, but nothing substantial, just a couple of lines.

So - What ya got????

[Paul Girouard]

Paul -
Ya got me thinkin.
So I pulled out the code book (IRC 2000) I haven't got the "06" yet.

There is no definition for Porch, which I thought was pecurliar.

There is a definition for Deck, but nothing substantial, just a couple of lines.

So - What ya got????



Porch boards run 90 deg. from the house/ building.
To simple eh.


Deck boards run parallel.

Back east porches where common and D. Fir Or SYP T&G boards where run 90 deg. from the building , joist parallel to building.

Here's another word , "Feel " people commonly say they "feel umpty squat" no they don't, they "think" it. You "feel" pain / hot / cold , etc.

If it's your opinion is that "I should do umpty squat" you don't "feel " it you ( the word "you" used generically) think it!

Talk about thread drift :eek: but , IMO ( I feel :o :D ) the OP has been answered adequately. Possibly beaten to death in fact! :D

[William OConnell]

Porch boards run 90 deg. from the house/ building.
To simple eh.


Deck boards run parallel.

Back east porches where common and D. Fir Or SYP T&G boards where run 90 deg. from the building , joist parallel to building.

Here's another word , "Feel " people commonly say they "feel umpty squat" no they don't, they "think" it. You "feel" pain / hot / cold , etc.

If it's your opinion is that "I should do umpty squat" you don't "feel " it you ( the word "you" used generically) think it!

Talk about thread drift :eek: but , IMO ( I feel :o :D ) the OP has been answered adequately. Possibly beaten to death in fact! :D

Hmm nahh. Almost all of the porches I build have boards running paralell with the structure. It doesn't mean there decks. Heres one I did a few years ago. Expain to me how this is a deck. You may call the one off the bedroom a balcony, but the wrap around a deck? nah
http://www.indianisland.us/Gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=800&g2_serialNumber=2

[Matt Ocel]

That brings up one final question.

If you install the decking diagonally, are you building a "Derch"?:D

[Tony Bilello]

MDF is far superior to Particle Board in just about every respect. Smoother, easier on your tools, lays flatter, dont swell as easily when wet, machines better and of course, I would rather get dust in my eyes than sharp chips. Its gonna happen time to time no mater how much protection you wear. It will be in your hair, eyebrows, skin and clothes.

Tony B

[Paul Girouard]

, but the wrap around a deck? nah
http://www.indianisland.us/Gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=800&g2_serialNumber=2

Yes, a cover wrap around deck thats what I see. No porch in sight.

[Paul Girouard]

That brings up one final question.

If you install the decking diagonally, are you building a "Derch"?:D



It would then fall to joist direction as your muddying the definition with detractors :D

Which begs to question how do you feel about that?

[John Lucas]

John -

Not to be a Cliff Claven but,

The generic name would be "High Pressure Laminate"


You are absolutely right, but I dont know if there are the different grades available in the others...can only state re. Formica.

[Paul Girouard]

You are absolutely right, but I dont know if there are the different grades available in the others...

can only state re. Formica.



All the manf. make VG lam. it comes in 49 x97 inch sheets , not all colors of standard lam are readily available in VG. As it suggests it is designed for vertical use , it is thinner , by roughly 1/2 the thickness of standard lam.

That being said IF your willing to pay just about any variation can be had for enough $$.

We did a trade show booth for OR ( Outdoor Research) a backpacking camping equipment company . It was about 40 feet long and 8 feet in height , mostly 4x8 -ish panels that cam-locked together for set-up and tear down reasons as it, the booth , went "on the road" to trade show. All stowed into big crates made to hold the panels and other trade off stuff that went to the shows.

The P.Lam was laid up off a panoramic photo of Mt. Baker here in Washington state , so each panel was a part of the photo. Each panel of the walls and two rooms that formed the ends of the booth had to be laid up on the right panel , all the panels where numbered and had to of course be assembled in the right order to put the "picture " back together.

IIRC Wilson Art laid the P.Lam up for OR.

There more than you ever knew about P.lam , and more than most folks really need to know.

[Peter Quinn]

Hey Paul, I here you about the delicacy of correcting customers. Some really don't like it. The carpenter I corrected basically told me "I'm busy, don't brake my stones, just make my millwork!" I worked as a chef in high end restaurants for years. A famous restaurateur from the 1950's coined that phrase "The customer is always right". He was a moron. I worked for another famous NYC restaurateur who was less famously quoted for saying "The customer is NOT always right, in fact often far from it. But in my house they always get what they want!"

With the carpenter in question acting as GC on a recording studio for which I made numerous things, he was stretched often to the limit of his focus. When the 'STOOLS' were being fabricated (I agreed to call them sills in conversations with him) I knew the studio had been declared a CLEAN zone, acoustic ceiling and electronics had been installed so field installations could not produce dust in the space, which put the gentleman going down 5 floors in an old elevator to the parking lot to make any cuts.

Before fabricating the STOOLS, I asked if he wanted me to cut the ears. "Can you do that?" he asked. Sure, the customer always gets what he wants. Great. Then I asked, "Do you know the bevel angle and would you like me to make the bird's mouth cuts on the bottom to meet the ...." "The what?" He asked.

"You know" I said "That thingie on the bottom of the window that pitches to the out side?" "The sill" he asked? I said , "Sure, but how can both things be called the sill?" "Oh, I just need the INTERIOR SILLS". he said. Some people would rather make up words they like than try to use new ones that make them uncomfortable. Go figure.

Which leads me to your old boss. I may correct a client now and then in my side work, but I'm never stupid enough to correct my boss. But I will correct your who couldn't be more wrong. His definition is so wrong as to be irrelevant.

Porch is American vernacular for an extended PORTICO, or a covered entrance. The term porch seems to have come into use in the mid 1800's and stems from the latin word porticus. What defines a PORCH is what is over it (a roof), not what is under it. Being from the East, and living in a neighborhood build circa 1870, I can tell you that porch floors run every which direction to suit the design, the framing, or the structure. But if it protects a door and has a roof, and is larger than a portico, it is in fact a porch regardless of the flooring system.

[Paul Girouard]

Ya your right IMO a deck is a deck if it's uncovered, it's a landing if it's small less the 4 x4 , and IF it's covered it's a porch.

But my boss is a retired USN Attack pilot and maybe you don't know this saying , well unless you know some USN people , the saying goes , "You can always tell a Navy pilot , you just CAN'T tell them much!" :D

He's a from Conn. way back when maybe joined the USN in the late 60's , he flew A-6's in Vietnam.

[Peter Quinn]

So he's a Navy pilot AND a stubborn Connecticut Yankee? Nope, don't try to tell him anything. Maybe slip him a copy of a book on the classic architecture of New England and the America's, let him discover it for himself?

[Paul Girouard]

So he's a Navy pilot AND a stubborn Connecticut Yankee? Nope, don't try to tell him anything. Maybe slip him a copy of a book on the classic architecture of New England and the America's, let him discover it for himself?



Hehhehehhe!:D

[Per Swenson]

Paul -
I follow your thinking. There could be a whole thread on calling things by the incorrect name.

The one that bothers me the most is when people in the trades call all "Laminated Veneer Lumber" - "Micro Lams".


Anybody who builds houses knows that Micro Lams are....

Little tiny sheep.

Per

[Matt Ocel]

Anybody who builds houses knows that Micro Lams are....

Little tiny sheep.

Per


I like it, I like it alot.
Can I use that one Per?

[Per Swenson]

Steal away Matt,

We will be here all week, try the veal.
baddooomp.