Looking for larger planer and jointer advice.

[dave rave]

This is my first posting, but I've read quite a few that other folks have left on this topic, so I will give a slightly drawn out intro so as to hopefully avoid some of the tangential discussions that often crop up.
I am the tech for a 1500 sf. woodshop in an Oakland, CA industrial art education facility called the Crucible. We teach a variety of bench and machine classes in the wood area, and the rest of the facility does glass, metalwork, jewelry, etc.
Due to the efforts of my boss, we have some grant money to spend on some new tools and two areas we are pretty committed to improving are the jointer and planer. We currently have a Delta 8 in. jointer (DJ-20) with a Shelix head, and a Grizzly 20 in. "4-poster" jointer. Current issues include a warped jointer fence with periodically frozen angle adjustment, and inaccuracy and noise on the planer.

We do not want a combo machine. With up to 8 or 10 students that would mean too much waiting.

We do want helical or shelix heads for various reasons.

Due to space constraints, I figure that I have several options:

1) Replace fence and carriage assembly for jointer at about $500. This might allow us to step up to a 24" planer, however all things being equal, I'd rather have a 12"-20" pair than an 8"-24" pair. The real positive about this is that the price step up from 20-24" is small, and there are more classic cast iron machines available in the 24 range than the 18-20 range

2) Used classic iron. While I would love to have a Northfield 12" and an Oliver 399 drop into my lap (not literally), it seems rather unlikely. Also, the Bay Area doesn't seem to have the plethora of older machines for sale that I see in other parts of the country.

3) New machines. In jointers I'm considering the Grizzly G9860, the Powermatic 1285, the General Int'l 80-300, and the Steel City 40610. In planers I'm looking at the Grizzly G9740, Powermatic 201, and General Int'l 30-360. I believe Helical/Shelix cutterheads are available for all as either standard or aftermarket options and the price for the pair will probably end up in the $10-$12K range.

I am getting a lot of pressure to spend the money soon, a terrible plight for sure, and if I don't make a decision my boss is just going to default to Powermatic. But I figured I'd check in with the folks here and see if maybe people could help with the decision or perhaps point me somewhere I haven't looked. I've looked a lot, but I'm sure there are plenty of things I've missed.

Thanks in advance for the help. I hope I didn't ramble on too long.

[Paul Gatti]

2) Used classic iron. While I would love to have a Northfield 12" and an Oliver 399 drop into my lap (not literally), it seems rather unlikely. Also, the Bay Area doesn't seem to have the plethora of older machines for sale that I see in other parts of the country.

I live in the Bay Area and regularly cruise the local Craigslist, Oliver jointers and planers pop up every couple of months. There is a Oliver 299 planer available now (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/832321595.html) in Concord. The other option is eBay, but you will need to pay for shipping. Most of the old iron I've comes across usually requires some restoration or repair. Is this something you are willing to undertake? If so, I think you can get some great machines.

[Rafael Carias]

If you can manage to convince your boss to cover you for a trip to nevada you can pick up this http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/tls/832319993.html

[Matt Benton]

Wow! Those are my kind of casters...

[Joe Meazle]

http://www.olivermachinery.net/index.asp

I have an Oliver 4255 12" Jointer with their Heilcal head I think General Uses the same type. They do have a shear cut and are much heavier than a Byrd head. They also have big planers that use the same inserts. You might be able to get a deal on a pair. It looks like there is a dealer in NoCal but I'd check with Sunhill Seattle and Equipment Sales and Surplus In Aurburn WA. The move a lot of tools and might be more willing to make a deal on a pair. I have also see good prices on their 10" jointer from time to time. Just some more options.
Joe

[Mike Heidrick]

First off call Delta - no way the DJ20 fence should warp!!

Two more to add to the consideration list.

Delta DJ30 12" Planer - 37-361 (1 phase) 360 (3 phase)
Delta DC580 20" Planer - 22-451 (1 phase) 450 (3 phase)

Both available in 1 and 3 phase

[Roger Barlow]

I have the PM201 - 22" 3phase 7hp, and Delta/Invicta DI42 - 16" 3phase 5hp jointer, very happy with both. Have the Byrd head on the PM, would like to use a Byrd head on the jointer but haven't gotten around to it yet. Both pieces were purchase used and well below the price of new equip.

[dave rave]

I'll reply to the posts in order:

Paul- I saw that ad, plus another one for a Yates in Pacific Heights, but I would really rather have a 12" jointer, 20" planer combo if possible. I'm keeping the 8" jointer, 24" planer possibility open, but I'd rather not head that route if I can help it. And while we can do some restoration work, we'd rather not head too far in that direction. As for ebay, I'm not buying something like this unless I can kick the tires first.

Rafael- I saw that posting as well, and while I would love that jointer for a personal piece, it is inappropriate for our shop because it is too wide. And as for heading to Nevada, I'm not so sure.

Joe- I had heard, and I mean no offense to you or your machine, that the new Olivers weren't that great. I realize that perhaps that is because folks are comparing them to the old Olivers, but how is the quality on the new ones? Pricewise, are you saying that they are better in your opinion than the others I listed? And is that true for both the planers and jointers or just the jointer?

Mike- As we are a non-profit, a lot of our stuff is donated, salvaged, bought cheap, etc. This DJ-20 arrived as a reclamation project and we have done our best to fix it up. It was quite a step up from our first jointer, one of the open stand 6" Deltas. I think that at this point Delta will wash its hands of the jointer as far as a warranty on the fence but I'll give them a call just to check. As for the Delta jointer and planer, I am of the opinion based on things that I have read, some on this site, some elsewhere, that the quality and the level of features is lower on the Deltas than on the ones that I listed. On the flip side, the Deltas are a bit cheaper.

Thanks for the ideas.

[Jeff Duncan]

For heavy use like what your machines will likely see I would personally stay away from the lighter duty machines. Call up some local, or even not- so-local dealers and see what they have to offer. You may be able to find something used and/or re-conditioned for not much more than a new Powermatic and you'll be much better off in the long run. Shipping would cost a few extra $$$ but may well be worth it.
Brands for jointers and planers I would recommend would be Northfield, Oliver, SCMI, Wadkin, Porter, and older Powermatic equipment, though there are other very good machines around. Auctions, craigslist, and e-bay are great and I use them a lot, but although you'll pay less, you may need to do some repair work yourself.
BTW, if you look on e-bay there is a separate section which offers additional buy-it-now machines by dealers. Just keep in mind they're asking prices are high and should be negotiated down.
good luck,
JeffD

[Mike Heidrick]

I would really compare the PM and General to the DC580 again in person before deciding. Have you read reviews on the DC580 specifically or the DJ30 for that matter? These are not the small Delta tools many here own.

The PM701 with the 7.5hp and 4 blades is nicer than the 5hp and 3 blades on teh Delta. Speed change is also easier on the PM. Otherwise I would venture that the PM and Delta are VERY similar!!!! In fact I am going to bet that they are made in the exact same factory. The frame and everything is EXACTLY like my DC580 - down to the screw holes. Even the General Import looks VERY VERY similar.

[Eric Larsen]

You can also try using the same technique that got you that grant in the first place, to try to get a price break on the machines.

Grizzly.com has some good deals on a 20" planer and 8" jointer in their "outlet center" section. You'll find that Griz is held in high esteem here. Since these machines are going into a school environment, a few scratches aren't going to make a difference. You'll need to add the spiral heads, but the starting prices are quite good.

[Joe Meazle]

Dave,
No offense taken. The Old Olivers set a high stadard (if not the standard for Jointers) and the new ones are Oliver in name only. You discussed General Interantional and I would put them in that same leauge. Like I said they use the same helical cutterhead and you get an a all cast iron machine (the dust hood and accesss door are sheet metal). They would not have been my first choice but I got a heck deal on one that fell off the truck, really. But I have been pretty pleased.

[Simon Dupay]

What about the Canadian-made general?

[dave rave]

Jeff- I agree that the older machines will take the abuse much better. Especially in our shop, the folks, many of whom are metalworkers (!) are not accustomed to taking care of tools. It is much harder to get people to treat machinery well when it isn't theirs. I rent space for my personal shop in a shared environment and I get to use a circa 1960 Whitney 24" planer and a brand spankin' new Martin 20" jointer. The Martin is a good machine, but you can't argue with 50 years of flawless service.
Unfortunately I don't know of any local dealers and so far I haven't found anything online even as far away as SoCal that seemed appropriate.

Mike- I looked at the Deltas as you suggested and that led me to an interesting comparison of the items I've been looking at. The weight and sizes for the comparable items really varies. On the jointers the Delta, Steel City and Powermatic are all around 800 lbs, while the General is 1155 actual and the Grizzly is 1190 shipped, figure 1000 or so net. The Powermatic also has the longest bed at 90" versus 80-84. Seems like it would be really tippy. On the planers, the Delta is down at 840 lbs, while the others are all over 1350. This suggests to me that even if they look similar on the outside, something is different in the guts of the machine. Now this doesn't mean that the Delta is a bad product, but greater mass usually means less vibration etc. And 500 lbs. is a lot.

Simon- Oh, boy I would love to get the Canadian Generals, new or used. But new the prices are prohibitive, figure roughly 2.5x the price of the imports at least. And I haven't found any used. Well I did find some in Canada, but that's a different ball of wax.

[Peter Quinn]

Make it easy, go gold and don't look back if the money is there. I guess I'm wondering the specific nature of the grant available to you. Are you able to spend the money as you wish, so looking to get the most jointer/planer for the lowest price and spend the difference on other things? If not, go gold and don't look back.

[Brad Shipton]

Dave, have you looked at the used ones on the woodweb classifieds? There are quite a few there. Even a couple from schools. Ex-factory or MCLS also offer used equip that you might want to take a gander at.

Heres an old Oliver:
http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/423009.html
or Maybe a Newman:
http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/422942.html

Yes, it will cost a couple sheckles to get one home, but dont rule it out. I had a 1200lb unit shipped 1000miles for about $400 and it was not broken when I got it. You can always get Byrd to make a custom shellix if you want to.

Good luck.
Brad

[Gregory Stahl]

If it were my money, I would purchase the G9953ZX jointer from Grizzly and call it the last jointer I ever would need. It is well made and is designed for continuous industrial use--in my opinion. There were some clones of this same model from only a couple other manufactures at IWF. One of the manufactures is Extrema: http://www.extremausa.com/jointers%20ej%2012%20ej%2016.html - looked like the same jointer to me when I looked them over - but I am partial to Grizzly and the service they provide, so I would purchase the green version of this machine!

I think the DJ30, steel city 12", powermatic 12", and Grizzly G0609 are all similiar, if not made by the same company (who is manufacturing the Grizzly in China). I feel this is a lighter duty jointer though, and it may not be the best for continuous duty, and would highly recommend the 12 or 16-inch Grizzly Z-series.

I have the G0609 and am happy with it.

You don't mention what the inaccuracies are with the 20" planer, but you can change out the cutterhead with a Byrd to take care of the noise. Parts for this design of planer are readily available should it go down in the future.

Good luck!

Greg Stahl

[Mike Spanbauer]

I would HIGHLY suggest dropping a line over at old woodworking machinery (google for the addy since I can't offer it here due to SMC rules).

There are often superb machines for stellar prices moving around there. If you're clear that you're looking for an operational machine, not a beauty queen, you'll likely have a dozen or more offers. Be sure to mention the intent and that you're in the school / community sharing arena and you'll get some very good responses. Good folk (like here) and often willing to extend a helping hand!

mike

[Rick Fisher]

http://www.sunhillmachinery.com/OliveAugIWF08%20pg%201.pdf

Sunhill has the Oliver 24" Planer on sale right now for $5000.00

The Oliver 12" Jointer, with a Baldor motor, for $3900.00

These are import tools, but they are decent quality.

[tyler mckenzie]

I'd stay away from Grizzly at all costs. I'd go used old arn if you have the time to search.

[Joe Jensen]

In your budget range I'd go for reconditioned old iron. One local tool dealer here in AZ reconditions old PM 20, 22, and 24" planers. They add the Byrd heads, all new bearings, replace anthing worn, and the sell for $8-10K. Dealer claims they sell at least one a month. They have a 20, and a 24" on the floor now. I'd start there.

ExFactory on the internet has a large number of industrial machines from all over the country. Lots of good working condition old iron there too.

www.exfactory.com (http://www.exfactory.com)

[Alex Shanku]

In your budget range I'd go for reconditioned old iron. One local tool dealer here in AZ reconditions old PM 20, 22, and 24" planers. They add the Byrd heads, all new bearings, replace anthing worn, and the sell for $8-10K. Dealer claims they sell at least one a month. They have a 20, and a 24" on the floor now. I'd start there.

ExFactory on the internet has a large number of industrial machines from all over the country. Lots of good working condition old iron there too.

www.exfactory.com (http://www.exfactory.com)


Exfactory just seems WAY too expensive.

[Dan Lautner]

I would stay away from all asian stuff. If I had the cash these would
be in my shop.

[Joe Jensen]

Exfactory just seems WAY too expensive.

VERY Negociable. The tools are all on consignment.

The old PM224 is a great planer. To get one with a Byrd head, fully reconditioned, for $8-10K seems reasonable to me. If one is up to the reconditioning work, then buy an old iron and do it yourself. I see the PM224 on ebay frequently for $2500 or so.

[dave rave]

Well I talked with the boss man and various other folks and it really left me almost as undecided as I started out.
Basically there are a whole lot of folks who are in favor of the big old iron, and I can see the logic there. The machines are tried and true designs, heavy for vibration dampening, and are a lot more durable. On the other hand, they typically are using older-style cutterheads which require grinding attachments (which for some models can be hard to find.) While they typically give a better cut, with the mixed use our shop gets a nick becomes a hassle because you can't just flip, slide, or rotate an edge. And conversion to helical or Tersa is expensive and complicated. The machines therefore tend to be really loud, which in our situation, with other teaching areas adjacent, is less than ideal. Add to this the fact that they are big, can be expensive and can be hard to locate regardless of condition, and they become a bit less appealing.
Another group of folks, including my boss, favors new, and at this price point, Asian machines. Pros are that I can get the machines with helical heads, they are available immediately, and we can afford them. Cons include the fact that new tools can be overpriced, especially compared to the same machines used or old iron. It seems that, like cars, driving these new tools off the lot causes them to lose about 30% of the value. They also aren't nearly as well-built or durable as the classic pieces.
Which brings me to the conclusion I drew, which was that perhaps I should hold out for used Euro, ideally SCM, machines and hope I get lucky. On Ex-Factory some of the prices on 20" SCM planers are fairly reasonable and the Euro machines on the surface at least seem to be well built and might be easier to convert to helical.
And then I found a place nearby that sells used tools. I called and they have an Invicta (Brazil, not Europe, I know) jointer that needs a bit of work but he knows us at the Crucible and quoted me a price that seemed downright reasonable ($1000.) He also said he had a bunch of other stuff that we might like. It might be a boondoggle but I gotta check it out in case it isn't. I'm gonna go down tomorrow with my straightedge and camera and check the stuff out. It may not be the absolute best brand on the planet, but the price seems good and parts and cutterheads are available.

Anybody ever use the Invicta DI-32 or DI-42, or the 70-80's Deltas that were made by Invicta? And what about the stock Invicta helical cutterhead?

And thanks to everyone who has chimed in on this. It is always nice to get a variety of perspectives. If y'all are ever in Oakland and want to check us out, and even if you aren't, google The Crucible in Oakland California.

[Jeff Duncan]

I haven't used the Invicta myself but almost bought their jointers on 2 separate occasions. First time was many years ago when I was looking for a small jointer. I looked at their 8" (same as DJ-20) and it was a very well made machine. More recently I looked at their 16" and it is also a well made beast. Problem for me was length so I ended up with a shorter bed Italian machine. I would definitely give them a look.
Also as mentioned previously the Ex-Factory prices are meant to be negotiated. They do a lot of consignment work and so it depends on the owner as to what the final price will be, but with this market we're in I wouldn't be surprised if you could find something for very short money.
My SCM 20" planer came with the grinding attachment and I paid $1000 for it. Much better machine than just about anything from Asia. You should be abla to find one in newer condition for your budget. I also know of a Martin planer that's already been converted to a insert cutterhead in excellent condition. Same dealer I bought my jointer from, not sure of the price and whether it would be feasible to ship, but it definitley shows that the stuff is out there. If you want a look go to www.alliancemachinery.com and check into the used planer section.
good luck,
JeffD

[David DeCristoforo]

"Exfactory just seems WAY too expensive...."

VERY Negotiable. The tools are all on consignment.

Do you know how negotiable they are? I'm asking because I have looked at this site several times but wrote them off due to the ridiculous posted asking prices. For example they have a listing for a Rockwell 22-201 18" wedge bed planer. The asking price is $4,250!!!!!!!!!!!! I bought one brand new in '78 for $2,300. Since this machine has been out of production since the early 80's there is no way to compare to what new cost would be now. But certainly it would not be over four grand. I could see paying maybe $1,500 - 1,800 for one of these today if it was "mint". I would love to hear from anyone who has any direct experience with Exfactory....

[Joe Jensen]

"Exfactory just seems WAY too expensive...."

VERY Negotiable. The tools are all on consignment.

Do you know how negotiable they are? I'm asking because I have looked at this site several times but wrote them off due to the ridiculous posted asking prices. For example they have a listing for a Rockwell 22-201 18" wedge bed planer. The asking price is $4,250!!!!!!!!!!!! I bought one brand new in '78 for $2,300. Since this machine has been out of production since the early 80's there is no way to compare to what new cost would be now. But certainly it would not be over four grand. I could see paying maybe $1,500 - 1,800 for one of these today if it was "mint". I would love to hear from anyone who has any direct experience with Exfactory....

I bought my SCM 12" jointer from them. Was listed for $2250, still on the site as sold. I paid $750 plus a $70 markup. I had a tool listed there for 6 months. They marked my asking price up about 40%, and then came back with several offers from buyers that would cut my net, but also cut theirs significantly. I don't think they help the consignees set the asking price. I'd just say to call them and make an offer.

[Joe Jensen]

Well I talked with the boss man and various other folks and it really left me almost as undecided as I started out.
Basically there are a whole lot of folks who are in favor of the big old iron, and I can see the logic there. The machines are tried and true designs, heavy for vibration dampening, and are a lot more durable. On the other hand, they typically are using older-style cutterheads which require grinding attachments (which for some models can be hard to find.) While they typically give a better cut, with the mixed use our shop gets a nick becomes a hassle because you can't just flip, slide, or rotate an edge. And conversion to helical or Tersa is expensive and complicated. The machines therefore tend to be really loud, which in our situation, with other teaching areas adjacent, is less than ideal. Add to this the fact that they are big, can be expensive and can be hard to locate regardless of condition, and they become a bit less appealing.
Another group of folks, including my boss, favors new, and at this price point, Asian machines. Pros are that I can get the machines with helical heads, they are available immediately, and we can afford them. Cons include the fact that new tools can be overpriced, especially compared to the same machines used or old iron. It seems that, like cars, driving these new tools off the lot causes them to lose about 30% of the value. They also aren't nearly as well-built or durable as the classic pieces.
Which brings me to the conclusion I drew, which was that perhaps I should hold out for used Euro, ideally SCM, machines and hope I get lucky. On Ex-Factory some of the prices on 20" SCM planers are fairly reasonable and the Euro machines on the surface at least seem to be well built and might be easier to convert to helical.
And then I found a place nearby that sells used tools. I called and they have an Invicta (Brazil, not Europe, I know) jointer that needs a bit of work but he knows us at the Crucible and quoted me a price that seemed downright reasonable ($1000.) He also said he had a bunch of other stuff that we might like. It might be a boondoggle but I gotta check it out in case it isn't. I'm gonna go down tomorrow with my straightedge and camera and check the stuff out. It may not be the absolute best brand on the planet, but the price seems good and parts and cutterheads are available.

Anybody ever use the Invicta DI-32 or DI-42, or the 70-80's Deltas that were made by Invicta? And what about the stock Invicta helical cutterhead?

And thanks to everyone who has chimed in on this. It is always nice to get a variety of perspectives. If y'all are ever in Oakland and want to check us out, and even if you aren't, google The Crucible in Oakland California.

At least for the planer, you can get a 1970s Powermatic model 224 24" old iron planer, completely refurbished with a new Byrd cutterhead installed in Mesa AZ fore $8K.