DC questions

[Greg Hampton]

Just purchased my first DC system. From recommendations from my local woodworking store I went with the Jet 1100A ( 1.5 hp / 1100 CFM / 110 volts).

The plan is to use the DC system as a central / non portable system. I was told this unit would be fine for that due to the size of my shop. My TS is only 5 feet away and has a hose off one of the ports going right to it (no piping), all other tools / stations will connect via about 25 feet of PVC with 90 degree elbows.

The machines are not that far away, but by the time I go up the ceiling (9ft), to the machine (10 ft) then down to the machine (5 ft), lets say they're all going to conect via about 25 feet of PVC.

Only one machine will be running at a time.

I've done a lot of research on this and the guys at the store are guru's, but they're seems to varying opinions and all of you here at the Creek seem to always straighten everything out for me.

So..

1. Is this Jet DC okay for my scenario ? Will it be great ? Or just so so ?
2. Should I have gone with the 220 V 12 CFM Jet ?
2. Should I use 4" or 6" PVC for my runs ? Again, the guys at the store told me that 4" is the best, yet all the research I've done says 6" is the best.
3. What should I expect for performance ? For instance, last night I set it up. Had a 6 ft piece of good hose coming right off one of the ports. Confirmed great seals at both ends and it seemed to be good suction. I simply did some test sweeping of a bunch of sawdust on the floor. It seemed to do great once the sawdust and pieces got about three two to three inches from the hose.. but it's not like it was sucking dust sitting 6 inches away from it. Again, not sure what to expect, so curious. I've got a General Contractor TS and did some tests there as well. I was under the impression that it would literally suck everything that came down right into the system. But after the test there was still some small piles in the corners, etc.

As always, really looking forward to your replies.

Thanks !

[David Giles]

Well, you are in the grey area between adequate and best. And how you ultimately feel about the DC is largely dictated by your personality type. "Git r done" folks should be plenty happy. More anal retentive folks keep fiddling with it for years!

I have the same DC that you purchased, and was a "fiddler". Rather than upgrade to a cyclone, I spent just as much money maximizing the performance of the Jet DC.

My first recommendation is to run 6" duct from the DC inlet to the machine. Removing the dual 4" inlet makes a huge air flow difference.

Someday you will want to install 6" ports on the machines. Jointers are easy. Just cut a bigger hole in the plastic hood. For your contractor saw, maybe a "Big Gulp" plastic collection hood with a 6" inlet? Or a metal duct transition piece with side mounted 6" connection?

Your performance with the 4" hose seems pretty typical. Air flow velocity drops off rapidly at the end of a pipe.

[Greg Hampton]

By "run 6" duct from the DC inlet to the machine", do you mean actually replacing the "Y" 4" port that comes with the machine ? If so, where do I get those and about how much are they ?

In regard to increasing the size of the ports at the machine, what do I do about a SCMS that only has a 1 1/2" port ?

Are you also saying that running 6" duct runs is optimum over the 4" that was suggested to me ?

Lastly ? I could probably take this thing back if you're saying I could get a cyclone that would kick it's butt for the same price I'm going to put into this to make it better.

[George Carion]

It seems pretty far if if you're going vertical with ducting. I've got a similar Delta unit in my single car garage shop and I ran everything on the floor along the edge of 2 walls. The DC is in the corner and I've got ducting heading down each wall. It worked out fine, but I needed to rearrange my tools. The tools that make the most dust are closer to the collector.

I was told by people more knowledgeable than myself (from this forum) that you should run a 6" main pipe and knock it down to 4" as you get to your tools; which is what I did. Even though the port on my DC is only 5" the 6" ducting (connecting via a 6 to 5 sleeve) seems to restrict airflow less after some very unscientific tests.

Buying a decent dust collector was easily my best tool purchase. Good luck.

[Greg Narozniak]

You will want 6" PVC-SD or "thin wall" as it is called in the plumbing industry. Check you local plumbing suppliers and stay away from the stuff the Borg sells. It is much more expensive and the thick walls that is has is not needed for DC.

I had a Jet 1 1/2hp and ran 6" PVC right into the inlet with 4 drops and a floor sweep with a total length of 20' and it worked very well. The Main trunk was the same height as the inlet along an outside wall and I was pleased with the preformance.

try and keep it 6" all the way to the machine and it should work fine.

[Dave Bender]

With that machine move it around to each machine. If you want stationary then get the 1200. As far as piping, don't use 90 Degree elboes unless they are long radius ones (instead use 45's) and use 6" pipe. As far as your contractor saw (or American style cabinet saws) there will be a fair amount of dust left in the corners unless you're running 10" pipe and a 10HP DC unit - it's the nature of the beast (saw was designed without any consideration for dust collection). An overarm guard combined with cabinet dust collection is the best you'll do on almost all contractor and American style cabinet saws. There are a few contractor and cabinet saws with dust collection designed in (i.e. flex hose routed up to the arbor) but they are the exception.

[Rick Fisher]

If you go with 6" pipe, avoid 90 degree elbows and use flex hose sparingly, that machine will be okay.

Where you will likely not be happy with that machine is if you get a drum sander. If you get a drum sander down the road, (or have one). Put it as close to the DC as possible. (like touching it). :)

[Mike Goetzke]

Years ago I started with a HF and added a Wynn cartridge in my 9' ceiling garage shop. I put in 4" central duct work not knowing a lot about DC at the time. I then found a used Jet - like you have. My run to my TS must have been at least 40' but was necessary due to floor space...until I mounted my Jet motor/blower to the ceiling. I also ripped out all the 4" piping and replaced it with 6" (I used the metal ductwork you find at the big box stores), and added a Thien baffle. The improvements were unbelievable.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Dust/Baffle/th_IMG_1958_1.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Dust/Baffle/IMG_1958_1.jpg)


So - go with 6" and add a baffle.

Mike

[Greg Hampton]

As always, thanks for the all the replies / scoop from everyone.

Natually, varying opinions from everyone.

My shop is in my basement with no ventilation (yet). I'm really concerned about ensuring my system traps on the fine particles. I have a Jet filtration unit hanging from the ceiling but I want to ensure I'm using the right size / type of duct work, elbows, sufficient size ports at the machines, etc, etc.


Mike: Since you have the exact same model, I had a few questions for you regarding the info you provided.

I sent you a private message. If you prefer I post it in this thread instead, thats fine, just let me know.

Thanks again everyone.

[Alan Schaffter]

I've been at this for quite awhile, and though some may disagree, here is my take.

Bigger is ALWAYS better. You can never have too much suction. By bigger I mean:

Large hp motor (3 hp or larger)
Large impeller (14" or larger)
Large filter area*

Now there are exceptions and I realize that not everyone can afford this or has a shop big enough to need it. But, will you add to your shop, will you ever want to run more than one machine at a time, will you ever get a dual drum or wide belt sander? If yes, go big!

Are you concerned about (1) dust and chips on the floor, (2) health hazardous fine wood particles in the air, (3) or both? (don't rely on an air cleaner, good ones will eventually clean the air fairly well, but not after you have sucked in many lungs full of hazardous dust.)

If the answer is (1) just about any system will do. If the answer is (2) or (3) then go back to my "go big" statement. Additionally, bag filters don't hack it when it comes to (2) or (3). You need to discharge everything outside (best), or use a cyclone separator that vents to the outside (better), or use a cyclone separator that vents through a good .5 micron cartridge filter or two* (good). Too many people just focus on (1).

Lets talk duct work:

a. 6" is better than 4" - allow allot more flow (CFM), better to accomplish (2)- you need CFM not static pressure. You will most likely upgrade your motor/blower someday, so plan for it now.
b. Use minimal bends, long radius if you can
c. Use minimal flex
d. Run as large as possible, as long as possible- if you can run 6" right to the machines, do it (and enlarge the machine port to match). The goal for (2) and (3) is to capture as much dust as possible at the source. The only reason ductwork is stepped down in size is to ensure there is enough velocity to keep chips and dust from settling out in the ductwork. If you get a big enough motor/blower and have properly designed runs you do not need to do this.
e. as has been said, use PVC S&D (ASTM 2729) (NOT Sched 40!!!) it is cheaper, especially for fittings and easier to run than metal.
f. Friction fit, don't glue PVC pipe and fittings together. After assembly you can use a tiny bit of silicone to seal the joints if you want. It rubs off easily with a finger if and when you reconfigure your ductwork- you WILL do it.

g. One more thing, don't worry about static hazards and grounding, it is an Urban Legend. Some report minor shocks, but no, none, nada, zip, static caused explosions or fires have ever been reported in a home shop. Plus, you can't ground an insulator anyway, if you run PVC. If you don't believe me, Google "Rod Cole static"

I could go on, but will stop here.

[David Giles]

I'm not implying in any way that the Jet isn't just fine for your application. But have you noticed how our desire for a bigger and better tool just happens? I made a decision to be satisfied with a 1.5 Hp setup and truly am. But there is no way that a 1.5 HP machine competes with a 2-3 Hp machine. So the goal is to get the most out of a 1.5Hp dust collector. That means optimizing the ductwork.

A 6" PVC pipe will fit over the blower inlet. It may take a couple of turns for duct tape, but it will fit. At the machine, I'd just leave the existing 1.5" or 4" connection. See how you like it. If you are happy, great. If not, then change something. But the 6" line eliminates most of the pressure drop (air flow reduction) in the main header. More air flow is better.

4" duct is fast and cheap. Maybe you put in 4" and are happy with the dust collection. But if you are not, the first step is to upsize the main header. Just suggesting that you skip a step.

[Greg Hampton]

Alan,

Hope you don't mind me saying so, but you are the man !

EXACTLY what I was looking for.

I'm concerned with 2 & 3.

I just bought the Jet 1100. 1.5 HP with the 2 micron cartridge / filter (as in yesterday)

Depending on the cost of what you suggest, I'm up for taking it back.

Can you let me know what make and model I should buy and about what I should expect to pay ?

Also, I picked up some 4" PVC pipe yesterday at Home Depot that cost 14 bucks for a 10 foot section. I can get 6" metal ductwork for the exact same price. That being said, is metal better then the PVC regarding concerns for your (2) & (3) ? Better flow ? I've read that the PVC can actually leak more ?

Thanks

[Alan Schaffter]

Alan,

Hope you don't mind me saying so, but you are the man !

EXACTLY what I was looking for.

You are welcome.


I'm concerned with 2 & 3.

I just bought the Jet 1100. 1.5 HP with the 2 micron cartridge / filter (as in yesterday)

Depending on the cost of what you suggest, I'm up for taking it back.

Can you let me know what make and model I should buy and about what I should expect to pay ?

The cost really starts going up with the bigger DC's because of larger motors/blowers, cyclones, and cartridge filters. It comes down to what you have and are willing to spend. The unit you have will work as a roll-a-round but will have a hard time drawing enough air in a fixed/piped installation. You'll get many suggestions as to brand, and I am not up on prices, but if you have the money I would step up to a system with a cyclone and cartridge filters. As far as design goes, the ClearVue is arguably the best with a few design features over the Grizzly or the Oneida. I have a cyclone system that uses an old 3 hp blower with 14" impeller and a cyclone I built from Bill Pentz's* design (on which the ClearVue is also based.
* Have you read Bills extensive web site?


Also, I picked up some 4" PVC pipe yesterday at Home Depot that cost 14 bucks for a 10 foot section. I can get 6" metal ductwork for the exact same price. That being said, is metal better then the PVC regarding concerns for your (2) & (3) ? Better flow ? I've read that the PVC can actually leak more ?

Thanks

Pipe & fittings- First, take back the 4" PVC.

You can really drop a bunch of money on ductwork.

I don't care what anyone says, my system probably has over 100' of PVC S&D, and I think it is cheaper and easier to install than metal. The thin walled metal available at Lowes and HD WILL collapse with a big DC- there is a great photo of the results in a recent post here or Woodnet. The spiral metal pipe from Grizz, Oneida, etc. is outrageously expensive. Some folks have been able to nearly match the price of PVC by getting metal duct from local HVAC guys. Conversely, 6" PVC S&D, can be difficult to find. Your best bet is to check irrigation suppliers. One source- if you are or know a landscaper, is John Deere Landscapes suppliers. They are nationwide and sell 6" S&D, but charge nearly double (mid teens to over $30 for a 10' length) if you are a non-commercial customer!!!! Also, some suppliers have the heavier SDR35 (ASTM 3034). It has the same OD as S&D ASTM 2729 but is more expensive. You can use ASTM 2729, 3034, and 3034 fittings with S&D pipe as all have the same ID. To compare prices of metal vs PVC S&D, compare the cost of a 6" X 6" X 6" S&D wye- (usually available at Lowes where I got most of my 6" S&D fittings even though they don't carry the pipe?!?!?!?) it will run $15 - $20, while a 6" metal wye may run $30, up to nearly $50, depending on the source!!!!

PVC doesn't leak and is easier to seal (see my other post about using a tiny bead of silicone on the outside of joints- remember the duct work is under suction so sealant will be pulled tight to the joint.

There have been studies that say PVC actually presents less interior flow resistance than metal.

[Greg Hampton]

I think I now have the information I need.

Thanks for all the help Alan and to everyone else who posted / replied.

[Paul Gatti]

I recently completed my installation of a ClearVue cyclone (http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/) and I used ASTM 2729 that I picked up for $1.79/ft at my local landscaping supplier. I live in California where everything is more expensive, so I have to imagine that you could pick up some 2729 for $1.79/ft or cheaper in Des Moines. Even if you don't by a ClearVue, I recommend checking out their forums (http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullentin/index.php). There's a lot of good information there about installing duct work, finding suppliers, installation pictures, etc.