Jet lathe update

[Jim Kountz]

Well if some of you read my earlier post you knew I was having some troubles ( everything that is threaded on the spindle wobbles however the spindle itself reads true with a dial caliper) with the new 1642. I have been in contact with WMH tool group (they own Jet) and so has the dealer where I bought it. Believe it or not the only thing they have told me so far is that I need to use a nylon washer between my chuck and the spindle to make sure the chuck is completely bottomed out against the spindle shoulder. They are sending me some of these "magical" washers however I can assure you my chuck is more than bottomed out already. The length of my chuck adapter is long enough that when I thread it on without the chuck there is like a good 1/8" or so sticking out from the end. I also made sure the chuck was bottomed out on the chuck adapter too. If it wasnt bottomed out I might have hope in the so called "magical" washer but Im left feeling like this is BS myself. What possible difference could a nylon washer between the chuck and the spindle make? Anyone have any ideas? Im afraid that a replacement or return is on order here since this thing is just not right and hasnt been since I got it. *sigh*

I realized this lacked alot of information if you hadnt read my previous post on this so heres a link to the original post I made on this to bring you current.
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=91192

[curtis rosche]

you could always take some of that thread sealant tape, the white stuff, and wrap the spindle till the chuck doesnt woble, it would probably wear down after a year or so, but it would work

[Jim Kountz]

you could always take some of that thread sealant tape, the white stuff, and wrap the spindle till the chuck doesnt woble, it would probably wear down after a year or so, but it would work

Well its not wobbling as in being loose, its just not running true. Sorry, guess I could have been clearer there! The only thing I can figure is that the threads themselves were just not machined right. I know its a reach but I cant think of any other reason how something like this could be.

[Max Acbuilder]

What chuck are you using? Have you tried another one. I returned a Nova chuck for another one. I was having same issue. Found out that the Nova chuck nylon plastic(nylon?) insert was not installed correctly at the factory. Have you measured the run out on the shaft without anything mounted? Tell us more...

[Jim Kountz]

What chuck are you using? Have you tried another one. I returned a Nova chuck for another one. I was having same issue. Found out that the Nova chuck nylon plastic(nylon?) insert was not installed correctly at the factory. Have you measured the run out on the shaft without anything mounted? Tell us more...

Ive tried a Nova G3, a Woodcraft branded chuck, a machinist 3 jaw chuck and three different faceplates one being a Oneway and two from Jet. For the Woodcraft chuck I tried two different inserts and got the same results. They all wobble on my lathe but not on others. To answer your question yes I have taken readings from every perceivable approach, (see my other post on this too, link is in my OP scroll up).

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Hi Jim
This is a new lathe, and the spindle should NOT be like that, they can either send a technician to have a look and decide then or/and exchange the lathe , this is a mayor defect, not some paint chip or sharp casting edge, you should not be given any hassle for their shortcoming, just my 2 cents.

[Jim Kountz]

I couldnt agree more Leo.

[Keith Burns]

Jim, I would go to your dealer, tell him what you have done with the chucks and tell him you expect at least a new headstock if not a complete new lathe and you expect it now. Period, end of report.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim,

I'm in the service business. I face difficult customer situations daily and have for 32 years. Often, I have customers that come unglued for some ridiculously petty reasons IMHO. The problem you are experiencing is not, however, petty. Go to the dealer, explain the situation calmly, in a matter of fact tone. Give them the symptoms....explain what you have done so far and state that you paid good money for the lathe and have a right to expect a good functioning lathe. Tell them you want a new headstock or a new lathe and you really don't care which. Do it in a calm but firm voice. Most companies and company employees want to satisfy customers. However, when a customer comes in with an emotional, angry attitude, it can turn someone who wants to satisfy you into a "this is what the contract states and this is what you are going to get" position. THis often means it will take more time and you'll get less. When customers treat me with respect and go out of their way to be nice to me in the "heat of battle"...I will go out of my way to make sure they get what they deserve and often more....My managers sometimes say I give them too much. But....they keep resigning service contracts and buying more equipment from my company.:D

[Don Carter]

Jim:
Your post is frightening me to death. I should be expecting delivery this week of a new Nova 1624 and you just never know what you are gonna get.
I agree with the advice that you have received. I would state my position with the dealer and then I would work my way up the line if not satisfied. Happy customers are important to every company.
I will be watching and waiting for your satisfactory conclusion to this problem. Good luck.

[charlie knighton]

sorry you are having a problem, i received a new jet 1642 this summer, no problems except i needed a dedicated line for just the lathe, i hope your spindle problems get solved to your satisfaction

[Tom Keen]

Im not sure this will be helpful since it seems you have tried everything. But I had a similar problem with my Jet 1642. My problem was solved with a new adapter. The tech at psi explained, and I sure cant quote him, that the fit between the spindle and adapter threads had a lot of slop(my word) in it and that the chuck or adapter had to bottom out against the shoulder on the spindle (which was true) in order to get everything in alignment. When I got the new adapter I made sure every mating surface was perfect and clean. Seemed to take care of the problem.

When you put the chuck with adapater on the spindle and start to screw it in you will be able to move it side to side.. it hits the shoulder and stops moving..and if the spindle,spindle shoulder, adapter or the chuck is off just a little you have run out. A soft nylon washer is not going to take care of this problem. It will compress when you tighten the chuck against it, but if the the two surfaces that contact it are not in alignment it will compress unevenly and you will still have run out.

I think it would almost be impossible for someone with out the correct measuring instruments to tell what part of the system is out of whack. But if the spindle with a drive center in it lines up well with the tailstock you then have to look at the spindle shoulder and try to determine if it is at a perfect 90 degree angle to the spindle. Then you would have to measure the adapter and insure that it was cut correctly. Then do the same with the chuck, though if it worked ok on another lathe that should rule out a problem with it.

Im rambling. But, if I were the dealer.. I would get a couple of loaner chucks and adapters to you and see if they worked...if not, its the lathe and Jet should take it back no questions asked based on your report backed up by the dealer. Generally, Ive found Jet to be helpfull with a couple of problems Ive experienced.

Good luck!!

[Jim Underwood]

Sounds to me like you've isolated the problem. If you've tried various faceplates and chucks and combinations of adapters on several machines and the problem does not follow the chucks or faceplates around to the next machine, the problem is OBVIOUSLY in the spindle of your machine.

Jet should give you a new headstock or new lathe. If necessary cart the darn thing to the nearest dealer and make them look at it.

That's what I had to do to get satisfaction with my mini-lathe.

[Richard Madison]

Please let us know what happens when you try the nylon washer. I am now betting that you have a small nick in the outside edge of the spindle shoulder which has raised a minute area of the shoulder surface. The plastic washer should absorb this irregularity, and your faceplate will no longer wobble.

Mechanical mysteries can be fun, unless you are the victim of the mystery. Then it's no fun, especially with $$ invested. Good luck Jim.

[Jim Becker]

My understanding of the nylon washers is that they are primarily to make it easier to break the chuck or faceplate free to change them after they get tighter from use...and that's what I use them for. I'm not so sure how one of these is going to correct an anomaly in the spindle threading. In theory, seating the chuck or faceplate flush on the spindle should actually provide a truer installation since it's inflexible...as long as thing are machined correctly at least. Some lathe manufacturers actually discourage the use of the nylon washers for this reason.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The only way I can see that "nylon washer" working to correct this problem is if the threads on the spindle are cut the right number of threads per in but slightly narrower that the threads on either the adapters he's tried or the chucks he's tried. Then the nylon washer might hold the adapter or the chuck out against the thread.

I have my real doubts about this fix.

Jim....Good luck! Let us know what happens.

[Richard Madison]

My suggestion was that the face of the spindle shoulder has a slight nick or burr that sticks up about .002". The plastic washer would "absorb" this defect as it seats. Can't wait to hear how this turns out.

[Jim Kountz]

My understanding of the nylon washers is that they are primarily to make it easier to break the chuck or faceplate free to change them after they get tighter from use...and that's what I use them for. I'm not so sure how one of these is going to correct an anomaly in the spindle threading. In theory, seating the chuck or faceplate flush on the spindle should actually provide a truer installation since it's inflexible...as long as thing are machined correctly at least. Some lathe manufacturers actually discourage the use of the nylon washers for this reason.

Thank you! Thats exactly what Ive been thinking. I totally agree with every word Jim, In fact I actually thought about how the washer could even possibly allow the chuck or faceplate to be threaded on "crooked" since it is flexible and could crush a little more to one side or the other especially with extended use. Make sense? I think its absurd for a rationally thinking person to believe that a small piece of vulnerable plastic could be truer than steel or iron.

[Dick Strauss]

Jim,
I think Jet is thinking that your chuck is not bottoming on the spindle shoulder.

[charlie knighton]

did you have any problem taking the face plate off spindle, it is shipped with it on and it has two set screws holding it to the spindle so you can run it in reverse, it is possible while taking face plate off to mess up spindle if set screws are only partially screwed out :confused:

[Rick Vincent]

You have the same problem as I've had with a delta lathe. The threads are cut wrong.I took this to there repair place and they changed the spindle shaft..

[Tony Baideme]

Jim,

I have been reading about your problem. Do me a favor, please post a picture of the back side of your 1.5" adaptor. (the side that you thread onto your spindle)

If, as you are saying, the chucks and faceplates are fitting true on another lathe spindle without that new adaptor, I believe that adaptor would be your problem.

Does the adaptor thread fully up against the spindle shoulder? (which you have stated is running true)

Are there internal threads all the way out to the end of the adaptor bore? There should be an oversized bored out area, with no threads, to about the depth of one full thread, right at the mouth of the hole. This allows the shoulder of the adaptor or chuck to come flush with the spindle and eliminates the chance of the internal threads of what you are putting on the spindle from stopping, or misaligning the hub of your adaptor or chuck, etc.

Since you don't have another 1.5" spindle to try that new adaptor on, you can't tell for sure if it is that or the 1.5" spndle that is off.

I would say to try a different adaptor on your spindle before going through whatever will need to be done to exchange the suspect spindle. If you find the adaptor runs true on another 1.5" spindle, then you will prove that your Jet spindle is out of wack and needs replaced. If however the adaptor runs out on a different lathe, just get another adaptor.

It could also be the external threads of the adaptor that are messing you up.

BTW, you ARE using a dial INDICATOR, and not a caliper, right?

Sorry for the long reply and I hope this helps.

Aloha, Tony

[Jim Kountz]

Jim,


If, as you are saying, the chucks and faceplates are fitting true on another lathe spindle without that new adaptor, I believe that adaptor would be your problem.



Since you don't have another 1.5" spindle to try that new adaptor on, you can't tell for sure if it is that or the 1.5" spndle that is off.

I would say to try a different adaptor on your spindle before going through whatever will need to be done to exchange the suspect spindle. If you find the adaptor runs true on another 1.5" spindle, then you will prove that your Jet spindle is out of wack and needs replaced. If however the adaptor runs out on a different lathe, just get another adaptor.

It could also be the external threads of the adaptor that are messing you up.

BTW, you ARE using a dial INDICATOR, and not a caliper, right?

Sorry for the long reply and I hope this helps.

Aloha, Tony

Tony, I have tried a total of three (3) adapters now for the Nova G3. All with the same results. Heres a running total, three faceplates, two chucks each with at least two adapters and a long rod type thing my machinist friend had. All wobble, all are threading tightly against the spindle and bottomed out. And I am using a quality dial indicator. The Nova is running from 0 to 6 thousandths out and the other chuck is exactly the same. Coincidence? I dont think so. One faceplate was around 8 thousandths and the other two were guess what?? Yep 6 thousandths. Keep in mind these measurements are taken with a 3" (approx) diameter chuck, Imagine how far out this would be if I were spinning say a 12" bowl or platter.
I want to thank everyone who offered advice and help with this, its given me alot to think about. The bottom line is Monday I will take the headstock back to the dealer for them to confirm everything I have done, then Jet will render a decision from there. I have already told my dealer that Im not interested in getting this thing repaired or fixed. I mean if I had wanted a used, rebuilt, refurbished lathe, thats what I would have bought. I wanted new and thats what I paid for. Time will tell but meanwhile Im kind of in turning limbo and Im bored to tears!!

[Roger Wilson]

If you paid for the lathe with a credit card you can use the power of the credit card company to help resolve this.

If you don't get a replacement, or satisfactory resolution from whomever you bought it from, write a letter to the credit card company explaining that you do not want to pay the charge as you have been refused a replacement for a defective product. The credit card companies are very good with this and very powerful.

[Cody Colston]

Jim,

I have a friend who had a similar problem with a Jet mini except that on his, the MT2 was machined off center. It sounds like Jet is having some QA/QC problems.

I'd definitely return the lathe because a new tool should not be giving you problems and a mis-threaded spindle is not something that is easily corrected.

[Tony Baideme]

Jim,

I stand corrected. I think that from all you have told us, you do have a bad spindle. I agree, take it back and ask for a replacement headstock, not a rebuilt one. They may not give you a new one and if they will fully guarantee refurbing your original headstock with a new and tested accurate spindle, that would be better than what you got now. I know what you are saying about buying a new machine and wanting it all to be new, which it would be even if they make repairs to it. (Think about if you have a new car and it has a faulty transmission. The manufacturer would not give you a new car for that problem, but would either replace the trans or rebuild the opriginal one. It's all still new, just worked on a second time.

I wish you the best of luck in getting this problem resolved quickly. I hate to read about things like have been mentioned in this thread. I guess I have been lucky with my machine purchases.

Keep us posted.

Aloha, Tony

[robert hainstock]

If there is clearance, (slop) between the male threade headstock shaft, and the female chuck threads; How would you ever center it with a washer between the two? It seems to me that it will always be near impossible to mount the chuck so that it is perfectly centered. MHO!:eek::eek::eek:
Bob

[Steve Cuthbert]

Hi Jim
Thinking of ordering a Jet 1642 and very interested in your thread. Whats the outcome of all this please or is it still ongoing?
Regards
Steve

[Andrew Derhammer]

Run the dial indicator on the surface behind the threads on the nose. Normally this is where run out occurs as the threads are a loose tolerance and the back is where the chuck trues up, a nick can throw this off.

[robert hainstock]

Recent posts and my own persinal expierence cause me to believe that Jet has a quality control problem in China. My new Jet 1220VS lasted one hour barely, before the ONOFF switch locked in the ON position. The Chinese will make anything to any specifcation, but aparently do not employ quality checkers. Send it back! :eek::eek::eek:
Bob

[Greg Ketell]

Believe it or not the only thing they have told me so far is that I need to use a nylon washer between my chuck and the spindle to make sure the chuck is completely bottomed out against the spindle shoulder.


I was just reading on the Stubby website after seeing one of their lathes on TV for the first time. They had an interesting bit on one of their pages.


Remember that the back surface seating against
the flat behind the spindle is what gives you stability and accuracy, not the thread. This is true for four-jaw chucks as well.

Q. What about using a plastic washer behind the drive?

A. Don't do it. In fact – we don't believe that you should ever do it. The proper mating of the two surfaces is important and the washer compromises that.

I thought that might be interesting to you and useful in your discussions with Jet.

Good luck!!
GK

[Jim Kountz]

Ok folks I know its been a while but work life and others things got in the way though now I have taken the headstock to my dealer and here is what happened.
They first tried a standard Jet 6" faceplate and got no wobble at all. They then threaded on a chuck (Supernova) and it DID wobble. Then we tried my two chucks again and of course they wobbled. The guy then told me that all of them (wood lathes) will wobble to some degree and even his PM 4224 had some wobble with a chuck installed. I thought to myself this is nuts but lets see. So we go over to his lathe and tried all the same chucks and faceplates and got the SAME results, one good faceplate, three wobbling chucks. So now Im really confused, do all lathes have some wobble when chucks and faceplates are mounted? Why didnt the one Jet faceplate wobble? Please understand when I say wobble I do not mean slop as in you can wiggle it on the spindle. I mean when its rotating it does not spin true. At a slow speed say around 100 rpms its enough to see with the naked eye. I was wondering if some of you could do me a favor especially other owners of a 1642 Jet. Thread your chuck on there run it real slow and see if it looks like its true. Maybe this is the norm and not something to be worried about however it seems screwy to me. The guy at the dealer also told me that wood lathes were not made to the same tolerances of metal lathes and therefor all have some degree of runout. Whats acceptable to you guys?

Thanks,

Jim

[Steve Schlumpf]

Jim

I have the Jet 1642, 2hp version, and just ran your test. I use a Talon chuck, have the wood screw mounted in it and ran the test at 127 rpm. The outside of the chuck did NOT vary - at any speed.......BUT the jaws of the chuck did. I removed the wood screw and closed the #2 jaws and ran the test again - it was worse! Opened the jaws up until I had about 1/4" between jaws and found that most of the wobble was gone - but it was still present. Again - the body of the chuck did not wobble - the jaws did depending on their open/closed position.

I did not have anything mounted in the chuck - so the jaws were loose and that may or may not make a difference.

On a different note - I have turned a few finials, one end held in the same chuck, and there was no variation, no wobble.

Hope that helps. If you can think of another test you want run - let me know and I'll try to get it done.

[Jim Kountz]

Jim

I have the Jet 1642, 2hp version, and just ran your test. I use a Talon chuck, have the wood screw mounted in it and ran the test at 127 rpm. The outside of the chuck did NOT vary - at any speed.......BUT the jaws of the chuck did. I removed the wood screw and closed the #2 jaws and ran the test again - it was worse! Opened the jaws up until I had about 1/4" between jaws and found that most of the wobble was gone - but it was still present. Again - the body of the chuck did not wobble - the jaws did depending on their open/closed position.

I did not have anything mounted in the chuck - so the jaws were loose and that may or may not make a difference.

On a different note - I have turned a few finials, one end held in the same chuck, and there was no variation, no wobble.

Hope that helps. If you can think of another test you want run - let me know and I'll try to get it done.

Darn Steve that was fast! Thanks alot for that! Heres a test I just did, I have a Nova G3. Between the hole for the chuck key and the front of the chuck I found enough real estate for the pin on my dial caliper. When rotated this produced about a .004 runout. The back of the chuck (part closest to the headstock) seems to wobble more than the actual body of the chuck. DO you think .004 is acceptable or something I should concern myself with?

Thanks again!

[Steve Schlumpf]

Jim - I view all runout as accumulative and something to be avoided when possible. I have never run that particular test - so have no idea if .004 is normal - but my gut says it shouldn't be there.

Give me a few minutes and I'll see if I can duplicate your test.

[Steve Schlumpf]

OK

I have the TS Aligner jr system and managed to rig up a test to measure runnout. Found that when measuring the front of the chuck, the rear of the chuck and the actual spindle - all variations were very slight and never measured more than .001".

Hope that helps.

[Greg Ketell]

I have 0.0005in run out on my 1014vs measuring on the back of the spindle. With my 4" faceplate mounted there is even less than that measured at the furthest diameter.

I have 2 talon chucks. I had to measure them on the skirt closest to the jaws since there is nothing flat on the jaws themselves; one measure out at 0.002in the other at 0.004in total wobble which means actual wobble is 1/2 that in either direction.

Lastly I chucked up a 2x2 piece of wood and using my parting tool I turned two grooves in it, one right at the jaws and one about 2" out. Both measured out at 0.002in.

GK

[Scott Conners]

My 1014i has no visible runout with my barracuda chuck, the jet faceplate is obviously out of round, but doesn't have any visible runout or wobble parallel to the ways of the lathe. I need a dial indicator for better measurements, but by eye it looks just fine.

It seems to me that any amount of wobble could cause problems with some kinds of turnings - especially ones prone to whip, like a cane.

[Richard Madison]

Jim,
Just tried your test on my 1642 with two of the $99 Griz chucks. No faceplate available at the moment. Measuring radial runout of the chuck body, one was about .001" and the other was .003" total variation. This is relatively meaningless however. What matters is the center of the jaws when clamped onto a tenon or into a recess. And considering that we are turning wood, not metal parts for the space shuttle, .003" off center of the jaws is meaningless too. You will sometimes create more variation in diameter than that from sanding a face grain piece. The cross grain dia. will be slightly smaller than the long grain dia.

Obviously if the jaws close 1/8" off center, that would be a problem.

[Jeff Nicol]

Jim, I have my original cheap chinese lathe that had a pivoting headstock for out board turning. I have since put a different motor and Vfd on it and shimmed the headstock to get the centers to line up. Needless to say that this is not a very precise machine but I turn on it just about every day and sometimes the headstock will creep out of line. But the only time it ever makes a problem is if I am going to drill a hole in the piece with the drill chuck mounted in the tailstock. So I give it a tap with the dead blow hammer and I am back in business. Most of the time what ever you are turning will change shape every hour or at least every day. The only time you might have a problem is if you are turning threaded boxes that have a need for tighter tolerences.

I looked at all three of my lathes and tried a great array of faceplates adapters and chucks. Some have a wobble some don't, I have one that the outside of the faceplate has a wobble but the threads are true and when I use it for bowls or vases everything comes out fine.

So I agree that this is woodturning and not swiss watch making and that type of runout can be tolerated IMHO!

Good luck,

Jeff

[Jim Kountz]

The only time you might have a problem is if you are turning threaded boxes that have a need for tighter tolerences.

I looked at all three of my lathes and tried a great array of faceplates adapters and chucks. Some have a wobble some don't, I have one that the outside of the faceplate has a wobble but the threads are true and when I use it for bowls or vases everything comes out fine.

So I agree that this is woodturning and not swiss watch making and that type of runout can be tolerated IMHO!

Good luck,

Jeff

I understand what you're saying and for the most part I agree. I guess the thing that bothers me is say I want to do some threaded lids of something in the future. This wobble business is sure going to make that more difficult. Also as you know there are many times during the course of a turning when you have to take things off and remount them or turn them around. This just adds to the out of roundness you get when you do that anyway do its kinda becoming a snowball effect. Like Steve said, any wobble causes concern and when you start adding in other factors its just worse. Ok Im rambling here sorry!!

[Edwin Dodds]

I also have the Jet 1642 EVS, and just checked mine for run-out with the following results;
-Oneway Stronghold chuck body has less than .0005 runout on both axial and radial.
-6" faceplate that came with the lathe, measured on the face, right at the outside edge was .002, runout on the rim is .0015. (The faceplate is cast, and likely has warped slightly since machining, hence the .002.)
-As you might have guessed, there is abosolutly no needle movement on my .0005 indicator when I checked the locating shoulder and the face on the lathe spindle. And yes, I know how to read an indicator. I am a machinist with 26 years experience!
What is the diameter of the locating shoulder on your lathe spindle? Mine is 1.2485". If yours is undersize, anything you put on there could run off-center because of excessive clearance. Also, make sure there are no nicks or burrs on that large locating face to the left of the shoulder.
Keep us posted!