your thoughts?

[curtis rosche]

i recently got my grandfathers old WOOD magizines. in the feb. 1986 issue, they featured a ontario turner, a production turner with a huge lathe. his opinion on a true turner, is that a true turner never needs sanding unless it is a figured peice, people who scrape arent real turners, and that most people turn to slow. whats your take on these points?

reading old articles are amazing. esp, when you see all the adds that have stuff that was made in the usa

[Nathan Hawkes]

Sounds like that turner had a pretty high opinion of himself. I've heard other people say stuff similar to that, even production turners, and they think that idea and attitude is pretty bogus. I say sand away. Perfection takes a lifetime. Until then, its going to take some sanding for my pieces.

[curtis rosche]

this was the article on burt thompson. is he still around?

[Dennis Peacock]

Curtis,

I've heard the talk before......but I've yet to see someone "walk the talk". People can say anything they wish to say, here on the internet, in a magazine, and even on TV....doesn't mean it's the absolute truth.

What really matters is that you are turning wood, having a good time at it, relaxing, learning, and honing your skills at being a woodturner.

I have yet to visit any woodturner that can get away without doing any sanding at all.

A scraper is a turning tool......if it's a tool? Then use it as it was designed and it will serve you well.

What works for me, may never work for you in the woodturning world. But that's what makes our lives and hobby interesting. Each of us are different and we all turn wood with slight differences in style and technique.

The guy in the article had to of been very full of himself and must of had a very lonely life.

JMHO... ;)

[curtis rosche]

well, the guy had been production turning columns for 50 years, learn from his father who turned till he was 90.......

i didnt really pay attention to what was said, just took note. something to try to aim for. in the next 80 years

[Bernie Weishapl]

I wouldn't put much stock in it Curtis. Just keep learning and perfecting your skills. I agree with Dennis.

[Malcolm Tibbetts]

Because of the tendency of oily wood extractives to stain adjacent light-colored wood, I have occasionally been forced to finish a turning without sanding. The attached is an example. The dark wood is Madagascar rosewood, one of the most difficult woods that I’ve ever worked with. I could not apply sanding sealer without the reddish color staining the birdseye maple. I finally managed an acceptable surface without sanding and then applied very light coats of spray Deft until the wood was sealed. Because the wood was so oily, I was quite concerned about the integrity of the glue joints, but after about three years, it doesn’t show any movement. The final surface was “perfected” by using a handheld cabinet scraper; very light cuts as the wood was spinning and moving the scraper across the surface very slowly did the trick. I used both a straight scraper and a “French” curve scraper.


Unlike most segmented work, this style has 50% exposed end-grain. I don’t think I’d like to try to achieve this level of tooled surface very often – a few grits of sanding is a lot faster and easier.


I’m thinking that I might have posted this photo in the past – I’m having one of those déjà’s.


EDIT: Sorry about that - forgot to do the attachment.

[Jim Becker]

It IS possible to turn without sanding...David Ellsworth comes to mind. But for the majority of us, no matter how sharp our tools and how advanced our skill, some use of abrasives will generally be the case. Anyone who represents that you SHOULD be that good to be any kind of turner is, well...as someone already stated, full of themselves. We can, however, set a goal of where the starting point for our abrasives moves to...with practice, it should be possible the majority of the time to eliminate the need to use 60, 80 and even 100 grit abrasives in most of our turnings. The actual sanding we do would then be to refine the quality of the surface, rather than to do additional shaping.

[curtis rosche]

wheres the link to the peice?

[Phillip Bogle]

I put that on the level of the man claiming he hits the bulls eye every time and all of his shots are grouped in a dime no matter the distance, windage, caliber, load, or day. That is baloney! The bulls eye is what we aim for and aspire to reach, knowing full well we will never reach it. It is the reaching for the ever elusive mark that is the fun. I think if I ever hit perfection consistantly I would quit trying.

[Mike Minto]

Curt, if I could get past the misspellings and grammar defects, I might render an opinion. Sorry, but this kinda thing around here is killing me. Mike

[curtis rosche]

i can shoot clay birds, 15 out of 25 every time.:rolleyes::rolleyes::D:o:p

[Curt Fuller]

Whatever works! That guy may feel his work is acceptable without sanding. His skills may also be above average if he's a full time turner. And the bar has been raised in woodturning a lot since 1986. But I personally feel that the end justifies the means. I'm not as interested in the process as I am in the results. I know I couldn't live without a good supply of 80 grit.

[Jim Evans]

Curt, if I could get past the misspellings and grammar defects, I might render an opinion. Sorry, but this kinda thing around here is killing me. Mike

That was helpful.

[curtis rosche]

sorry about the misspellings, i really need to slow down with trying.

[Mike Minto]

That was helpful.

Jim, I'm a little slow sometimes... is that sarcasm, or a serious reply? I hate to have to muddle through a badly written posting, and don't mean to be mean about saying something about it, but - shouldn't an intelligent person express themselves clearly and not cause others to have to 'translate' poor writing? Mike :(

[Richard Madison]

Curtis,
You mentioned that the production turner in question had a huge lathe. It might be worth noting that large production turnings, porch columns for example, are often painted and typically do not require the fine finish to which most of us are accustomed. A turned surface that many here would begin to sand with 120 or even coarser might be acceptable (as turned) for some applications.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I suppose there's something to it, though don't forget He didn't write the post.

We are talking softwood spindle turning (Large spindle OK) I wouldn't want to use scrapers on something like that, and a large skew can make a very nice surface.

And especially in the hands of a professional turner, and like what has said before, it has to be paint grade, too smooth and you get some upset painters with that kind of work.

[Nick Stagg]

Hi Curtis,

You said the guy was a production turner making columns and it's quite possible he didn't need to sand. Repetition would hone his skills and leave the wood finished with good tool work.

I have heard of other spindle production turners who, with the right kind of wood, get away without sanding. Seldom did they sand below 220 grit because paint wouldn't stick to the wood. In the case of the column maker, no one gets too close to a porch pole!

As far as scrapers go, there is a use for them, but not on spindle work.

Keep posting, I can read your comments just fine.

Nick

[Bob Hallowell]

Jim, I'm a little slow sometimes... is that sarcasm, or a serious reply? I hate to have to muddle through a badly written posting, and don't mean to be mean about saying something about it, but - shouldn't an intelligent person express themselves clearly and not cause others to have to 'translate' poor writing? Mike :(

Mike,
Sorry I am educated and have a very good job as a Cell Tech for a major company. But my spelling and gramar are terrible so if you see my name you might want to skip my post.

Bob

[Mike Golka]

Curt, if I could get past the misspellings and grammar defects, I might render an opinion. Sorry, but this kinda thing around here is killing me. Mike

Thought this was a turning forum not English class:rolleyes:
Anyway, If you can't be a "real turner" without sand paper I guess I'll never be a real turner:(

[Keith Burns]

Good for him and any turner that doesn't need to sand. I look at sandpaper as just another tool. Not a turning tool, but a finishing tool. The end result is whats important.

[john taliaferro]

curtis, 36 grit , ship it. i have a big lathe. john t

[Jon Lanier]

Hey, I've always understood that sandpaper is a 'cutting Tool'... therefore, I find nothing wrong with it.

[Raymond Overman]

An excerpt from my Artist's Statement to answer your question Curtis:

"I use a non-structured technique to realize my vision. It usually starts with me thinking about a piece for days or weeks before going out to my shop and putting something down in wood. In my work, the process isn't as important as the end product so my array of tools and my liberal use of sandpaper may annoy some other woodturning artists, but it's the way I work. I enjoy the process of creating in my mind and then translating that to my medium but it's the goal of the finished work that drives me. In other words, the perfection of a single cut isn't what I'm looking for, it's the bowl or vase or sculpture that I saw in my dreams for days that is the goal."

[Jim Underwood]

I just spent four days with Stuart Batty, who is arguably one of the best woodturners in the world, if not the best.

He learned as an apprentice in his father's shop starting at about age 11 or so, and got paid by the piece. That's when you either learn to do things quickly and well, or you don't make much money.

As demonstrators go, he's shown some of the cleanest cuts and finest pieces right off the lathe that I've ever seen. But... some of the pieces still would have needed a touch of sandpaper.

I don't have those skills, and I know very few people who do. And I know fewer people still who have that kind of time to gain that experience.

So... I say, sand away! And work on your technique! Learn everything you can in order to minimize sanding.

And no. Scrapers are not the evil thing many turners say they are. Stuart used a scraper in plenty of situations. The only problem I see with using a scraper is the same problem you have with using any turning tool, only magnified 100 times. They don't get sharpened near enough. STAY near your grinder and learn how to sharpen!

PS. If we would all work at our writing like we work on our woodturning, then our experience on the forum would also be pleasurable for all. This isn't to say that I won't read what you write (right, wright, or write?) but it's just easier to read if you'll pay more attention to your spelling, grammar, and punctuation, not to mention capitalization. Those who are English majors will note that I still haven't learned to write without huge run-on sentences - so I can say I need to work on my writing as well.

[Reed Gray]

Curtis,
I just finished a run of 150 wooden beads for an annual event I go to (every year you attend, you get a bead for your necklace, and I volunteered to make the ones for this, the 28th year). By the time I was done, I was doing a good enough job that sanding with 220 was roughing them up, not smoothing them out. Getting that smooth of a cutting jog with a skew on spindle projects is a lot easier than getting that kind of a finish on bowls where you are cutting flat grain and end grain (with and against, or up hill and down hill). As far as scrapers, I use them a lot on both bowls and spindles. I can get a finish cut with scrapers that is almost impossible to tell apart from a gouge. It is all in having a sharp tool, and how you apply the tool to the wood, as in a scraping cut and a shear cut. On spindles, I love to use the 'Big Ugly tool' which is a primative version of the Ci 1 rougher. I have seen it in the hands of a master making as fine and smooth cuts on bowls, spindles, and finials as any skew or gouge. Again it is all in how sharp the tool is and how the tool is applied: scraping cut, or shear cut. Some where in the distant future, I hope that my tool tecnique will improve to the point where I don't need to sand any more. As it now stands, I almost never have to use 80 grit on my bowls any more, and a lot of the time I start at 120 or 180.

Remember, all of God's children are different, and some of us are more different than others. We all do things differently, and we do what works best for us.

[Mike Minto]

I'm gone - you let others' posts stand unrebutted or remarked on; thanks for all the past advice and info. mike

[Jim Becker]

Folks, this is a reminder that in our community, courtesy is the rule and we have a very diverse membership with respect to age, experience and education. Let's not turn what could be and continue to be a great philosophical discussion into a run in the mud. Moderators are watching this thread closely right now...

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Richard Madison]

An excerpt from my Artist's Statement to answer your question Curtis:

"I enjoy the process of creating in my mind and then translating that to my medium but it's the goal of the finished work that drives me. In other words, the perfection of a single cut isn't what I'm looking for, it's the bowl or vase or sculpture that I saw in my dreams for days that is the goal."

Raymond,
Well said. Had not thought about it much, but it is for me also, the goal of the finished work that is the driving force. Along the way I sometimes ask, am I having fun yet?

[Kim Ford]

A perfectly sharpened tool presented perfectly to the wood traveling at the correct rpm will result in a perfect cut.

Problem is I'm not perfect.

I'm just trying to get rpm correct.

[David Cramer]

Sorry, but like others have said, it's the end result that counts. If someone can get there quicker through vast experience or just being gifted, God Bless'em! The bottom line is the end product. Speed and skill usually come with time. As long as you get there, you get there. The journey is different for each and every individual. Just my 3 cents.

David