2-Bench Top Questions

[Victor Stearns]

Greetings to the Creek,
I have two questions pretaining to benchtops.
First having glued up the top, 30" x 96", I need to flatten it. I will need to purchase a hand plane in which to accomplish this. I was considering the LN #7 jointer. Is this the best for this? Or do you have other suggestions?

Secondly, what is the best method for drilling the bench dog holes?
I planed on drilling round 3/4" holes. As I want these to be as close to vertical as possible, I am looking for suggestions.

Thanks for Lookin,
Victor

[C Scott McDonald]

Can't help you on the plane question. I would be interested in seeing the answer to that myself.

As far as the Dog holes Click link below, select "WorkShop" on the left then scroll down to "work bench dog holes" This is one of probably a hundred ways of doing it.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/video/

Good Luck,

Scott

[Don C Peterson]

Generally, to flatten a large surface I use three planes. I start with a Jack plane (a #5 with a cambered iron) to do the initial rough flattening, then I use a #7, and finally use a smoother.

You could use a #7 to do it all, but it would take more time and effort, particularly if you don't have multiple irons.

To drill the dog holes in my bench, I started by using a power drill with a forstner bit. I found that the forstner bit/hand drill combo tended to wander too much. After I got a brace and a decent set of bits, I tried those and found that I could drill the holes much straighter.

[Tim Sproul]

A #7 will work fine.

If the top is out of flat a lot, you'll want to get a second iron (camber one iron a bit and the other only the smallest amount) or get a servicable used jack plane.

For the dog holes, use a brad point bit. Auger bit will also work but it is generally difficult to find and auger bit that is suited for dense hardwood.

Drill a block through with the brad point using a drill press (or hand held as carefully as you can - start over if you're not happy with the squareness of the bored hole). Now use the block as a guide for drilling your benchtop.

[Johnny Kleso]

The way to flatten a top use to use Winding Sticks (Wind as in Blows) and a Straight Edge (3" level can be used)

Winding Sticks can be two pieces of Aluminum Angle 36" long one silver one painted flat black..
You lay them across your bench at each end and eyeball to the edge sight the far one to see they are horizontial to each other..

With the winding sticks and straight edge find you high spots and make them out, most times this is done with a Fore Plane (No.6) or a Jack (No.5)

You start after you knock down the high spots with a Herring Bone cuts planing at 30* in one direction then 30* in the other..

Then a pass with the Fore Plane long ways..

Then when you get the bench all flatten out with the Fore plane you use your Jointer (No.7-8)

[Alan DuBoff]

Personally, if you are going to invest in a LN #7, you should consider the LN #62, it's a way more useful plane, IMO.

You can get the #62, the extra Toothed blade, and the 90 degree blade and still spend less than the #7 by itself.

The #62 with those blades is a way more useful plane.

The LN #62 is my goto plane, the toothed blade fills my need for a scrub plane, and the 90 degree blade used after a light pass of the toothed blade will take care of the worst figured and/or difficult grains, like purple heart, and figured maple...it is also a lot lighter, easier to weld around...one of my favorites. We all work differently, someone else will find another plane more useful, try them out and get what feels good for you. Could be worth finding folks in your area that you could try a couple different types.

You don't need the 90 degree blade for a bench top, but I got good use of the toothed blade on a bench top I used the LN #62 on...

I can't say enough good stuff about the LN #62.

Also worth considering is the Lee Valley BU planes, the BU Jack is less than LN and could present a better value to you. I have not used one, but it has some nice features, like the mouth adjustment. It also has more blade options, that might be attractive or unattractive depending on how you look at it.

BU Jack works well with shooting boards also, another nice use after your bench is done, that's incredibly useful as well.

For the bench holes, I like either an auger in a brace, works well for me...or Lee Valley sells some great brad point bits, a 3/4" is useful in a modern drill. Measure twice drill once. ;-)

[Doug Shepard]

This works extremely well for flattening tops
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=58

For the holes I followed Jeff Wright's method here and got nice vertical holes
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=57406

[Robert Rozaieski]

For flattening the bench top, the #7 will work but longer is better. A 96" long bench top is a lot of real estate to plane. If you can get your hands on a good long woodie or transitional jointer, that would be even better. I have a 30" woodie that I use for long boards and edges. Transitionals can be had up to 30" as well, and had cheap.

[Frank Drew]

The way to flatten a top use to use Winding Sticks (Wind as in Blows) ...

I always pronounced winding as wine-ding, because you use them to see if your wood is in wind (sounds like wined, not thinned).

[John Schreiber]

I always pronounced winding as wine-ding, because you use them to see if your wood is in wind (sounds like wined, not thinned).
I thought it was wine-ding too. I visualize that if the board was wound up, the winding sticks would show it.


Personally, if you are going to invest in a LN #7, you should consider the LN #62, it's a way more useful plane, IMO. . . .
I agree that generally a bevel up jack is more useful than a #7, but for flattening a wide area or straightening a long edge, the longer the better. I keep looking for a transitional. 30" would be great.

[Alan DuBoff]

I agree that generally a bevel up jack is more useful than a #7, but for flattening a wide area or straightening a long edge, the longer the better. I keep looking for a transitional. 30" would be great.
Actually I do agree that longer is better, that's why they make a BU Jointer.:D

Seriously though, most of my planes are bevel down, but the #62 has been very useful for me, for so many tasks. So much so, that it would be one of the first planes I added to my tools, if I was creating a working set of hand tools. I didn't do that as I was assembling my current set. :( Of course the bench itself, is one of the most valuable tools in any shop, whether it's flat or not...;) Flat is better though.

[Jerry Gerard]

Can't help you on the plane question. I would be interested in seeing the answer to that myself.

As far as the Dog holes Click link below, select "WorkShop" on the left then scroll down to "work bench dog holes" This is one of probably a hundred ways of doing it.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/video/

Good Luck,

Scott


I like this idea , it seems fast and looks accurate enough .

[Hank Knight]

Victor,

A LN #7 will do your bench top flattening very well. It's nice to have multiple planes - a jack to do the rough work, a #7 or 8 to get it flat and a smoother for the finishing touch. But neither the jack nor the smoother works very well as a flattening plane. A #7 will do it all fairly well, even smoothing if you close the mouth and set it for a very fine cut; and the #7 is probably the most popular and useful jointer plane for flattening a surface or straightening and edge. The #8 is longer and would probably work a little better flattening a long bench top, but it's a very large, heavy plane. For day-in, day-out use, a #7 is lighter and more comfortable to push around. Since you apparently don't already have one, a #7 would be a good choice. You'll find lots of uses for it after you finish your bench.

There are lots of ways to drill dog holes. I started mine with a 3/4" spiral cut router bit in a plunge router to get them vertical and finished up with a brad point bit. I attached the router to a sub base I could clamp it to the bench top once I got the bit centered over the hole to keep it from moving. The router bit is not long enough to cut all the way through most bench tops, but hole started by the plunge router is vertical and it will guide whatever bit you follow with. You could use a brace with a 3/4" auger bit to finish the hole.

My $.02

Hank

EDIT:
I should have looked at the Popular Woodworking video Scott cited before I posted. Glen Huey does a nice job of demonstrating the dog hole drilling method I tried to describe. HK

[michael osadchuk]

I suggest two refinements on drilling the dogholes.....

first, the popularwoodworking template to register the location of the dogholes yet to be drilled can be improved.....so that distance between paired dogholes in each series of dogholes on the bench are EXACTLY the same: this would allow you to build just one benchtop holding device batten/anchored by two 3/4" dowels on the bottom for each series of dogholes..... (generally it seems that benchtop have two series of paired dogholes, one each opposite a vice).........you can easily improve upon the drilling template in the popularwoodworking video by fashioning a template with two, instead one pair of registration holes where the dogholes are to be drilled; after drilling the first pair of dogholes, advance the template and anchor it to the workbench for drilling the second pair of doghole by inserting 3/4" dowels thru the already drilled pair of dogholes; all the suceeding pairs of holes should then be exactly the same distance apart, allowing use on homemade holding devices on any pair of dogholes in that series of dogholes....

the second refinement is to ease the edges of the dogholes with a 1/16" or 1/8" roundover router bit: it makes a neater, more uniform edge, than sanding or filing.

good luck

michael

[Alan DuBoff]

Victor,

A LN #7 will do your bench top flattening very well. It's nice to have multiple planes - a jack to do the rough work, a #7 or 8 to get it flat and a smoother for the finishing touch. But neither the jack nor the smoother works very well as a flattening plane.In a way I disagree. When I did my bench top, I used my jack as the primary plane to get the top into proximity of being flat, to use my #8. I agree with what you say in general, but it's completely possible to flatten a bench top with a jack plane, you just need to do more work in checking which areas that are out of flat.

A jack, jointer, and smoother are a good combination of planes to have for the task at hand, I think *some* would agree on those being a good combination. The jointer is the most expensive, the smoother is the least expensive and available in QTY on the used market, reasonably priced. Speaking for myself, I could eliminate the jointer, do a bit more work with the jack, and get a decent top, and follow up with a smoother. Even if it was not "granite surface plate" flat, it will be flat enough to do woodworking with xlnt results.

A real woodworker could definitely get a bench flat with only a jack. I'm confident I could do it, and I'm not even a real woodworker...;)

[John Schreiber]

A real woodworker could definitely get a bench flat with only a jack. I'm confident I could do it, and I'm not even a real woodworker...;)
True enough, you could do it with a smoother too, but the beauty of a jointer is that it can do the flattening without the need to constantly reference, measure, and compare the surface with a straight edge. And, it is much easier work with the mass of a jointer.

You could flatten with a block plane or sandpaper in you hand too, but clearly you wouldn't want to.

[Hank Knight]

I suggest two refinements on drilling the dogholes....

the second refinement is to ease the edges of the dogholes with a 1/16" or 1/8" roundover router bit: it makes a neater, more uniform edge, than sanding or filing.

good luck

michael

I agree with Michael completely. Not only does easing the edges of dogholes make a neater and more uniform appearance, it keeps the top edge of the hole from splintering with the repeated insertion and removal of dogs and hold fasts. I used Lee Valley's single flute 82* countersink (LV Item # 44J21.01) and it worked great. It leaves a nice even chamfer and doesn't splinter.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/hankknight/44j2101s1.jpg

[Johnny Kleso]

I looked to see if I could find the artical I read that said Winding Sticks (Wind as in Blows)

I read threw 10 google pages and no luck, I maybe wrong as I only read it one time..

I did find a link to this guy under Winding Sticks :)
http://www.expertvillage.com/video/15623_power-planer-old-one.htm

So if this guy is an Expert what I read may well have been wrong :)

[Don C Peterson]

I wouldn't put too much stock in Expert Village, they seem to have at least equal numbers of village idiots to balance out their experts:eek: Remember the "power planers are better than hand planes" guy?

I've always heard it pronounced like the wind is blowing. In the end, it doesn't matter how you pronounce the name, it's how you use it.

[Greg Cole]

I wouldn't put too much stock in Expert Village, they seem to have at least equal numbers of village idiots to balance out their experts:eek: Remember the "power planers are better than hand planes" guy?

I've always heard it pronounced like the wind is blowing. In the end, it doesn't matter how you pronounce the name, it's how you use it.

Spot on about the winding sticks, I've always heard it as "wine" ding... merely semantics. To my rather staight line mind, a twisted board is wound up not wind-ed up?:confused: Kinda like is it whimp (wh) or wimp... least those are spelled differently.
But the tools being used are handy little doodads.

The idiot thing reminds me of a NHL coach referring to a player agent....
"clearly he is mis-placed here in NYC, as there is a village somewhere missing it's idiot". IIRC it was Al Arbour many years ago now.... funny.

G

[Alan DuBoff]

True enough, you could do it with a smoother too, but the beauty of a jointer is that it can do the flattening without the need to constantly reference, measure, and compare the surface with a straight edge. And, it is much easier work with the mass of a jointer.

You could flatten with a block plane or sandpaper in you hand too, but clearly you wouldn't want to.Sure, it would be easy if someone went out and bought a LN jack, LN jointer, and LN smoother. The fact is that many people build benches for less cost than a single LN plane.

I think LN makes wonderful planes, I believe they're worth the cost if you use them, just like any tools. But that is some serious coin to flatten a bench top.

It just seems to me that we should encourage folks to build benches, and learn how to build, rather than running out and buying a bunch of tools. Even the LN #62 I suggest is way more $$$s than some people spend on a bench. That was in response to seeing someone say they're thinking about getting an LN #7.

Ultimately, the best advice to offer is to build the bench, worry about getting it flat later, having a decent bench is critical for working wood with hand tools. Having built and being able to use the bench will be more key to someone than gathering a bunch of tools to do so. Seeing people spend a year or two to build a bench doesn't make sense. More importantly it would allow someone to start working wood, learning better how to work it, and to build things out of it. There is no better way to learn how to work wood than by doing it, IMO.

Another option, a few layers of MDF with a hardboard top. Would create a decent bench that didn't need to be flattened, no jack, no jointer, no smoother. Having a working bench will offer people more time to gather the hand tools they need, meet woodworkers in their area to get help from, and start building stuff.

Sorry if my comments are off base, if the original poster can afford to buy an entire set of LN planes so he can build this workbench, more power to them. They are excellent planes. You can buy all the planes in the world and it won't make one a woodworker, but working wood will. So, get on with it and build a bench, one can figure out how to flatten it later. :)

[John Schreiber]

Sorry if my comments are off base, if the original poster can afford to buy an entire set of LN planes so he can build this workbench, more power to them. They are excellent planes. You can buy all the planes in the world and it won't make one a woodworker, but working wood will. So, get on with it and build a bench, one can figure out how to flatten it later. :)
I agree with what you say, and I'm sorry if I sounded argumentative above. Having a bad day.

My jointer is a pretty good recent Record which I bought used. I find that working wood by hand is fun, but if you use the wrong tools, it is frustrating and is likely to turn one off from the use of hand tools.

As somebody said above, if you don't already own the tools, or if you don't really want to learn Neander methods, your best bet is to take it to someone with a wide belt sander. In fact, as I look forward to final flattening for my 31" by 90" top, I'm thinking a wide belt sander looks pretty good to me. But, I want to have the pride of having done all the work, except for rough preparing the stock, with my own muscle power.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Sure, it would be easy if someone went out and bought a LN jack, LN jointer, and LN smoother. The fact is that many people build benches for less cost than a single LN plane.

I think LN makes wonderful planes, I believe they're worth the cost if you use them, just like any tools. But that is some serious coin to flatten a bench top.

I agree. Build your bench and flatten it with whatever you can get. Then start working wood ;). Too much energy is wasted trying to bring wood to machine tolerances that it won't hold anyway. No matter how flat you get it now, you will need to reflatten it at some point in the future because wood moves.

Now, if you just want a LN plane, go for it. As others have said, you will not be disappointed as it is a tool that will outlast you and if you do a lot of your work with hand tools you will use your jointer on every project. However, you don't need to spend a lot on planes to flatten a workbench (or build stuff for that matter).

This one was $20 plus the cost of the time to sharpen it.
96459

This one was $1 plus the cost of the time to sharpen it.
96460

Neither needed any serious flattening of the soles to make them useable and both are long enough to flatten a workbench (30" and 22" respectively). If they did need flattening it could be done with just a little scraping with a card scraper or a few light passes with another plane. Far easier than lapping a 24" metal beast. I lapped my old #7 and never will do it again.

Whatever you choose, just don't worry too much about getting it perfect because you never will. It's a workbench made to work on. It will get scratched, stained, glued, gouged and chipped. I accidentally drilled two holes in the top of mine this weekend when I went to far with the brace :o. Much too deep to plane them out so they will be there forever. If I had spent 2 years and $500 building it I would have been :mad::mad::mad: but hey, it's a workbench. Stuff happens. I'd rather build furniture ;).

96461

[Hank Knight]

It just seems to me that we should encourage folks to build benches, and learn how to build, rather than running out and buying a bunch of tools. Even the LN #62 I suggest is way more $$$s than some people spend on a bench. That was in response to seeing someone say they're thinking about getting an LN #7.

Alan,

My post to which you took exception was in direct response to the OP's question:

"First having glued up the top, 30" x 96", I need to flatten it. I will need to purchase a hand plane in which to accomplish this. I was considering the LN #7 jointer. Is this the best for this? Or do you have other suggestions?"

My effort was to answer his question about the LN #7 he was already considering buying. In my view, with the exception of a #8, it's the best plane for the job. I told him so and gave my reasons. I did not encourage or try to influence the OP to purchase an expensive plane for the job, I was merely responding to his question. If he'd said that he was thinking about building a bench but was hesitating because he didn't want to sink $400 in a plane to flatten it with, I'm sure my answer would have been very diffrerent.

There are many, many ways to accomplish most woodworking tasks. Sometimes I worry about new folks on this board who post a narrow question and get a woodworking treatise in reponse. Sometimes simple is best.

Hank

[harry strasil]

As to the holes, I am going to try this, on the bench I am building now. And a forstner bit. $39.50 from Lee Valley.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/drillguide.jpg

In the past I have used my Beam Borer,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/beamborer.jpg

And also a shopmade guide and a Brace and Bit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/drillingbolster.jpg

As to flattening the top, you might try what I am going to do on this last Workbench Top of Hard, Hard Oak. Check around for a Cabinet Shop with a LARGE drum Sander and have it sanded flat.

Be AWARE tho that they do not like to sand pine or other soft woods that fill up the sanding belts.

I have also heard of some WWer's that used a frame of sorts with a movable slide that they mounted a router in to mill the top flat using a larger straight bit and moving the slide forward by increments and then using the router by sliding it side to side. You would need a large flat surface to set the top on or possibly you could temporarily fasten the longtitudenal slides to the sides of the bench top by using a good quality level and some screws and spacers to line it up and fasten them to the edges.

[Alan DuBoff]

As to the holes, I am going to try this, on the bench I am building now. And a forstner bit. $39.50 from Lee Valley.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/drillguide.jpg

Harry,

Please don't buy that. I have one that I had bought, and quite honestly it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, for the most part.

If you want mine, it has never been used, and I will ship it to you and you can have it for free.

Send me your addy in pm, and it's yours. Thing is, you have a brace, you have augers, you have a solution. :)

[harry strasil]

Sorry Alan, I have already purchased one, and I love it, it gets used quite a bit for different jobs, I my opinion its handier than a pocket on a shirt.

[Don C Peterson]

I agree with Alan, those small hand drill guides are worthless. It was cumbersome to setup and then I found that a simple brace and bit resulted in more accurate holes anyway.

Jr. I have one you can have next time you are down this way if you want it...

Now that beam borer looks like it would work.

[Alan DuBoff]

Sorry Alan, I have already purchased one, and I love it, it gets used quite a bit for different jobs, I my opinion its handier than a pocket on a shirt.Well, keep me in mind, I'd probably trade mine for an old shirt pocket...;)

I see Don is also offering one up, darn I didn't think I'd get beat out on a free offer, but he is closer to you...

I agree with Don, that beam borer looks like a great tool! :)