White Oak vs. Red Oak?

[Mark Rios]

A few months ago my local WWing club had a man show up to an orchard with his portable mill. Well, it was only portable if you had a huge truck to pull it. :D It was a monster with all the bells and whistles. It adjusted the log and turned it over and rolled it around and made you coffee and everything. He came with his mill and a bobcat to move the big logs around with.

Anyway, one of the big logs that was milled for the club was oak and a discussion ensued about how to tell white oak from red oak. This man, who has a degree in some kind of wood/tree/forestry field said that there was no way to tell the difference between red and white oak by eye. He said that it could only be definitively identified under a microscope. Does this sound correct to anyone? I'm not meaning to doubt this guy, he is (sounds) very knowledgeable about wood and his livelihood is made knowing this stuff but this sounded odd to me. Even I can see differences in the color, grain and texture of different oak boards that I've seen. I even have, what looks like to me, three different kinds/types of oak in my garage. They all are different color and have a different feel and look to each of them. But, Im just a bonehead and I wondered what you wood experts thought.

Anyone?

[Paul Girouard]

At what point in the process are you wondering about?

Here's two google links , it shouldn't be a problem, except maybe at the cut / milled time / rough boards in other words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_oak

Types of W.Oak

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Quercus_species#Section_Quercus


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Red_Oak

There doesn't seem to be as many types of R.Oak.



I know there are different types of White Oaks , Garry's are W.Oak twisty narly trees.

But other than that specificy what type of White Oak I'd think it could be done.

Leaves , bark , color all are different as is cell structure.

[Ben Rafael]

Next thing he'll be telling you that a microscope is required to tell the difference between a cougar and a puma.

I've worked with oak for years, the red oak always had a slight red/pink to it. The white oak didn't. Put them next to each other and the difference is obvious. I dont need a microscope.

[glenn bradley]

"said that there was no way to tell the difference between red and white oak by eye"

There are a few things I can't tell by eye anymore but the difference between these isn't one of them . . yet ;-) The larger pores and shorter rays are a giveaway in red oak for me. Being a Californian, I've grown up around red oak furniture just about everywhere so maybe it is the familiarity with red that makes white easier to spot for me(?)

[Brandon Shew]

This man, who has a degree in some kind of wood/tree/forestry field said that there was no way to tell the difference between red and white oak by eye. He said that it could only be definitively identified under a microscope. Does this sound correct to anyone?

No. Looking at the leaves is the first way to see the difference. If you were just looking at the wood, that should be rather easy to determine as well.

[Ben Rafael]

"said that there was no way to tell the difference between red and white oak by eye"

There are a few things I can't tell by eye anymore but the difference between these isn't one of them . . yet ;-) The larger pores and shorter rays are a giveaway in red oak for me. Being a Californian, I've grown up around red oak furniture just about everywhere so maybe it is the familiarity with red that makes white easier to spot for me(?)

Agreed, the rays look different.
It's kind of like telling the difference between twin kids, if they're yours, it's obvious.

[John Eaton]

The bark is also distinctively different between the two species (usually) - white oak appears "whiter" in the grove plus it has these interesting bark "flakes" that red oak doesn't. I can take some snaps of the trees in my front yard tomorrow if anyone is interested.

-- John

[Jim Becker]

And they often smell different...

It's true that a microscopic examination is the only "definitive" way to declare a species, but folks with experience can usually tell the difference between red and white in many cases.

And then there is the "cold drink" test where you use a piece of the wood as a drinking straw. Red oak works. White does not. :)

[Peter Quinn]

The educated gentleman is either a quack or a crank. At this point I think i could tell the difference in a dark room. Bark, leaves, acorns, smell color, weight, grain, the little bumpy structures visible in the end grain of WO. Scientists often convince themselves that the rest of us are helpless without them.

Does it smell like cat pee when the saw goes through it, or like almost burnt toasted pop corn?

[Paul Girouard]

I'd say again, the only time it would be hard or the hardest to tell for me would be rough sawn stage. Lots of woods are toughest to ID at that time IMO.

But then most folks don't get to look at that much lumber at that point as most lumber is delivered at least a minimum of skip planed .

[Casey Gooding]

White Oak has rounded leaves. Red Oak has pointy leaves.
Of course this only works if you have the leaves.

[Tony Bilello]

The end grain on white oak is closed and tight and on red oak it is noticably open with larger pores.
Sometimes, not always, I can tell by weight. Usually there is a noticable difference in how much heavier the white oak is.
Not to sound too sarcastic, but your table saw will know for sure.

Tony B

[Bob Genovesi]

White Oak has rounded leaves. Red Oak has pointy leaves.

BINGO!!

This is the way I've always tell them them apart. If you're buying boards from a sawmill then you have to relay on them to point you to the right pile.

[Joe Spear]

Jim Becker's "cold drink" test is right on the money. The channels of red oak are open all the way. Roy Underhill used to demonstrate it on his tv show. Take a stick of the wood about a foot long. Stick one end in a glass of water and blow. A red oak stick will allow air through and cause bubbles in the water. White oak will not. The pointy-rounded leaf method will also work if you still have the leaves to look at.

[Ben Rafael]

Me thinks the scientist is Mr.Magoo and needs a microscope to see the bubbles.

[David Freed]

This man, who has a degree in some kind of wood/tree/forestry field said that there was no way to tell the difference between red and white oak by eye. He said that it could only be definitively identified under a microscope.

Sounds like he is book smart, but no common sense. Either that or what Ben said.

[Ben Rafael]

I recently had some oak floors done in my home. I wanted the new floor to match the existing. I had 3 estimates. The floors are finished with an amber varnish.
Each estimator came in and immediately said red oak and not one of them had a microscope.

[Brian Kent]

Next thing he'll be telling you that a microscope is required to tell the difference between a cougar and a puma.


Wait a minute. I thought a cougar was a…

[Ben Rafael]

Dont confuse matters, that is obviously a mountain lion.

[Phil Thien]

Jim Becker's "cold drink" test is right on the money. The channels of red oak are open all the way. Roy Underhill used to demonstrate it on his tv show. Take a stick of the wood about a foot long. Stick one end in a glass of water and blow. A red oak stick will allow air through and cause bubbles in the water. White oak will not. The pointy-rounded leaf method will also work if you still have the leaves to look at.

Will this work if the wood hasn't been dried yet, though?

[Mark Rios]

Wait a minute. I thought a cougar was a…




Guys, guys, guys, here's how to spot a cougar............


* She dresses quite suggestively, often younger than her age -- she wants desperately not to look middle-aged.

* Her clothes will generally be tight or low-cut -- anything to make a guy notice her. From afar she might look like a young hottie, which gets guys to approach. Get close, see the wrinkles and makeup, and her true age becomes apparent -- but by that time she's already being flirtatious and has lured you into her lair.

* She'll often be a smoker (cigarettes are a sexy prop, and "got a light?" is a good approach) who dies her hair (blonde is most popular) and dolls herself up (seems to be sponsored by Revlon).

* They often hang out in groups, acting as wingwomen for each other. On the other hand, given their considerable experience and resulting confidence, they will not wait for their friends to hit the bars. Logistically, it's easier for an easily picked-up woman to fly solo.

[Jim Becker]

Will this work if the wood hasn't been dried yet, though?

Yea, but it might not taste as good... LOL

Seriously, the reason that this test works is that red oak's structure is just like a soda straw. That's one of the reasons you don't want to use Red Oak for outside projects. White Oak's structure doesn't have this feature.

[Joe Spear]

Will this work if the wood hasn't been dried yet, though?

Somebody should try it and let us know.

[James Ayars]

I've got both types growing on my property. If it's not raining tomorrow, I'll try it. I've always told them apart by the leaves and the bark, plus the tint of the wood. Perhaps I've been fooling myself all these years.

James

[Jacob Reverb]

Usually you can tell them apart using one or multiple of the methods suggested. Still, sometimes it's hard to tell (I know from buying green oak from a local sawmill, I swear sometimes it seems like there are hybrids).

Another test that the US forest service devised is to test with a solution of sodium nitrite which causes a color reaction on the end grain.

For more see:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1985/mille85a.pdf

[Brad Moser]

Trying to blow air through a piece of oak (or sucking water through) is the easiest, sure fire way to tell red from white, without the leaves or acorns present. As was stated earlier, red oak allows water or air through it while white oak does not. This is because white oak has tyloses(sp?) in the pores. This is why white oak is used for whiskey barrels. Red oak would allow the whiskey to pour out.

[Gary Breckenridge]

:cool:Try this. Build a small boat with both kinds of oak. A year later the rotten parts will be red oak and the solid parts will be white oak.:cool:

[Thomas Pender]

I agree with all I have read about the leaves, bark, smell, and permeability of Red Oak. I disagree about the pink tint of Red Oak - I have bought white oak with a pink tint - it is rare, but it happens. I know when I have been cutting red oak - it smells different. But, as woodworkers, are we not missing the obvious? That is, we pay lots of money for QSWO because the flecks are huge compared to QSRO and they do not absorb dyes and stains as well as the other wood and thus stand out, especially on mission and arts and crafts furniture.

When I go to Northland Forest Products or some other mill and having bought many thousands of BF of white oak, I have been taught by the managers what to look for so I can spot the good boards. (With special appreciation to Warren Bickley in Manassas.) They point out that on a rough board you can spot the flecks and rays on QSWO - they just stand out. The flecks are also much longer and bigger. I agree - some are outstanding to look at just rough cut. To verify it is white oak on plain sawn boards, just look at the QS edges - the rays and flecks will be there. Another thing I notice - white oak is almost always brown (contradiction) and when you make a floor out of white oak - it is more beautiful, IMHO, then red. ;)

Bottom line. Silly to say you can only tell for sure under microscope.