Festool for Beginning Woodworking?

[Alan Wong]

Hi all,
I've been lurking around doing research trying to find how to get properly started into woodworking w/o breaking the bank, but at the same time get some quality tools that will last. I'm mainly looking to build some nice indoor furniture, possibly arts and crafts style furniture.
Space: Small area of a garage, limited. Also I don't want to invest into anything substantial like a table saw or band saw since I could be moving locations within 1-2 years, moving is a pain.

I have a few basics: rulers, squares, sliding bevel, chisels, tape measure

After reading and researching, a table with a guide set-up and circular saw and a router sounds like it might just be up my alley. They can get lots of the general needs done as well as remain portable and compact. Is this a good way to go, or should I invest in a portable table saw instead?

I don't really have a budget, but I will purchase the tools as I need them depending on what I am building. I'd like to stay under 1-2k.

Option 1: So that leads me to festool guide and circular saw system. Seems like positive reviews about this system, except for the price tag. I am willing to swallow the costs if its going to save me lots of headache and make my projects smoother and more accurate. This would be looking at the new MTF/3 table. Would this be a sufficient workbench? Or would I need another?

Option 2: Buy a study workbench and purchase the tools seperately (as in not festool) like router, circular saw, sander, etc..

I'd love to go straight and buy a nice cabinet saw or band saw but I just dread moving it 1 year possibly down the line.

Also I am taking some beginning woodworking classes at my local college, where I will have limited access to most of the large machines (planer, jointer, ts, bs), for as long as I am still taking classes. Lugging lumber back and forth to class might become a pain.

So any feedback would be appreciated, as I wanted to get started off on the right foot, and use my funds effectively and efficiently. Many Thanks ahead of time

-Alan

[Rick Potter]

Alan,

In my opinion, it would be a mistake to get a portable table saw, as they are limited in what they can do. For less money, I would suggest buying a decent sears contractor saw for about $200 or so, and if you move, sell it or leave it, taking any accessories or jigs you have made with you. Then buy another one when you get there. I have seen some wonderful furniture made with these saws. You have to fiddle a bit with them compared to the better brands, but it's worth it money wise.

As to the Festool equipment, I have no experience, but most magazines or books you may get usually cover table saws and their use rather than the more expensive and exotic Festools. I would think, as a beginner, you might get more for your money with standard tools, then go to the Festools later.

Rick Potter

[Ted Pritchard]

Allan

Festool systems are very nice to use, will last a long time and cost a lot. But it all depends on what you aim to do.
For sheet goods it is readily possible to do a very good job with their saw/guide system and in some respects more conveniently than with a table saw.
For projects using solid wood, life gets much easier if one has a planer and thicknesser or combination planer/thicknesser, and a small bandsaw. With the correct blade, even a 12" B/saw is capable of easily ripping down stock to approximate width and thickness, and they are not hard to move about.
It is not hard to accurately cut most solid timber to an accurate length with a good tenon saw, a home-made cut off box, a sharp handplane and some benchhooks made from scraps. Equally a lot can be done with a small and relatively portable contractor style saw.
If you have a lot of work in mind (and are prepared to forgo traditional M & T joinery) Festool's Domino system is very impressive (quick and accurate but again expensive).
If at some later date you're able to trade the contractor saw for a full size table saw, it's unlikely that you would consign any of the rest to e-bay - it would all remain very useful.
With respect to benches, I would recommend you fabricate your own in a form that breaks down easily for transport.

Ted

[Jason White]

If I had to guess, i'd say 90% of the folks here are "beginning" woodworkers. All I mean by that is that they (myself included) do a lot more talking and reading about woodworking than actually doing it. Also, "woodworking" can mean lots of different things. For me, woodworking (for the moment) is remodeling and renovation projects on my own house. When buying tools, I try to keep in mind that I'll someday use them for making actual furniture and more advanced cabinetry projects.

Having said all that, you absolutely can't go wrong with the Festool TS55 plunge cut saw. Some say it has replaced their tablesaw altogether. I still couldn't live without my tablesaw. I've also replaced nearly all of my sanders with Festool just because they're so much better than what I had. I think you're on the right track spending your money once on good quality tools instead of buying cheap stuff now, which you'll just have to replace later. However, you'll never have the same appreciation as us folks who have used junky tools in the past.

JW



Hi all,
I've been lurking around doing research trying to find how to get properly started into woodworking w/o breaking the bank, but at the same time get some quality tools that will last. I'm mainly looking to build some nice indoor furniture, possibly arts and crafts style furniture.
Space: Small area of a garage, limited. Also I don't want to invest into anything substantial like a table saw or band saw since I could be moving locations within 1-2 years, moving is a pain.

I have a few basics: rulers, squares, sliding bevel, chisels, tape measure

After reading and researching, a table with a guide set-up and circular saw and a router sounds like it might just be up my alley. They can get lots of the general needs done as well as remain portable and compact. Is this a good way to go, or should I invest in a portable table saw instead?

I don't really have a budget, but I will purchase the tools as I need them depending on what I am building. I'd like to stay under 1-2k.

Option 1: So that leads me to festool guide and circular saw system. Seems like positive reviews about this system, except for the price tag. I am willing to swallow the costs if its going to save me lots of headache and make my projects smoother and more accurate. This would be looking at the new MTF/3 table. Would this be a sufficient workbench? Or would I need another?

Option 2: Buy a study workbench and purchase the tools seperately (as in not festool) like router, circular saw, sander, etc..

I'd love to go straight and buy a nice cabinet saw or band saw but I just dread moving it 1 year possibly down the line.

Also I am taking some beginning woodworking classes at my local college, where I will have limited access to most of the large machines (planer, jointer, ts, bs), for as long as I am still taking classes. Lugging lumber back and forth to class might become a pain.

So any feedback would be appreciated, as I wanted to get started off on the right foot, and use my funds effectively and efficiently. Many Thanks ahead of time

-Alan

[John Lucas]

Alan,
I had the traditional shop and then decided to set up the "All Festool Shop" and sold my very trusty table saw...I needed the floor space. I am just now completing the build of a 12 drawer sideboard. There are 7 pages so far showing the step-by=step of this.

This is friend Sal with chest at midpoint:

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/sidebd57.jpg

The story is here: http://www.woodshopdemos.com/sidebd-two-1.htm

[Mike Cutler]

Alan

How much education/experience in woodworking do you have? This may help folks better offer advice. I see that you are taking classes, but a little more info always helps.

The Festool line of products are top notch. No matter where your wood working takes you, these will always be a prudent investment and return on quality. You really can't go wrong buying Festool. (Be sure to get the vacuum.)

The TS 55 can replicate almost all of the basic functions a table saw performs. Limitations would be depth of cut, dado's and power, to name a few.
Most folks tend to work with 4/4 material as a normal course, and the TS55 can easily handle any 4/4 material. The thicker heavier material will require the "beef" of a TS, but you'll know when you need one.;)
Drop down to the EZ forum and check out the bench setups that Dino, and Burt Waddell have come up with. This will give you an idea of just how versatile and complete a GCSS (Guided Circular Saw System) can be. Routers can be operated on the GCSS rails also.

I like Rick's idea of getting a cheap TS that you can leave behind. There are always contractor saws for sale in every price range used. A TS is a basic component of a wood working shop. Put it on casters to roll out of the way when not in use. If course a TS means that you'll need a DC( Dust Collector).

A little food for thought.
Most hobbiest, myself included, tend to make one off projects. We're not into mass production. Hand tools in the one off environment can save you a lot of time making jigs and guides and such to control machines, stationary, or handheld. Study and learn proper hand tool usage. They'll save you time and space.

[Chris Rosenberger]

Alan,

If can afford Festool tools, they are excellent tools to start with. I started out with a saw & guide system over 30 years ago. It was a 2 x 4 & a power saw. I saw the Festool guide system for the first time last summer. The main reason I got it was for job site use. Even though I have a complete shop, I use it in the shop as much as I do on job sites.

[Prashun Patel]

With all due respect to Festool, I don't think you need to start there.

The EZ system sounds just up your alley. It'll give you great versatility for under $1000. Then if you determine you need other tools, you can add them.

IMHO, Festool is a good 2nd or 3rd upgrade; I think you'll truly appreciate them then.

[Jeff Monson]

Start with the Festool guide rails and the 75 saw, if you can afford it, you will not regret it. I dont agree it should be your 2nd or 3rd upgrade, start with quality tools if you can afford them, they will make you a better and more efficient woodworker from the start. I have alot of Festool tools and love each and every one.

[Jesse Cloud]

OK, here's my two cents worth...
From bitter experience, I can tell you - don't buy something cheap and plan to upgrade later - you waste $$ and live with crap for a long time.

Quality tools are more important for beginners than for pros. I know it sounds odd, but quality tools are easier to set up and keep their settings. Cheap stuff has slop in the settings and makes it much harder to be accurate. With experience, you can work around that issue.

Get good dust control from day one (built in with Festool). I wish I had. I have paid with my health for all that stuff I breathed in over the years.

I still have my tablesaw. Its used more as an assembly table than anything else. Still use it for big production jobs, dadoes. and odds and ends, but it really doesn't justify the space it takes up. If I had started with Festool, I probably never would have bought a tablesaw.

The MFT/3 is great for using Festool and other power tools, for glue up, and general work. It is not sturdy enough for serious hand tool work, but it doesn't sound like that's where you are headed right now.

To do serious woodworking, you need a bandsaw, jointer, and planer. If you have access to those at school, I suggest you use them while you are starting out. The school probably has bigger and better machines than most of us can afford anyhow.

Festool is a safe bet. If you change your mind, you can sell your used tools for close to what you paid for them. The stuff you buy at the BORG might bring 50% used if you take good care of it...

[Peter Quadarella]

I went with the EZ system because it is designed from the ground up to be portable, safe, durable, and a complete system. It is growing, and the intention is to replace other tools like table saws and router tables. In addition, Festool is a large company with all the overhead that comes with. With EZ you are buying direct from the inventor, which gives much better prices often with more substantial materials (e.g. the rails).

In my opinion, Festool shines in their innovation. The Domino for example is a truly unique tool. Some of their other stuff has great features, much of which is great for professionals who have to work in customer's houses (quiet, great dust collection) or for those who already have everything and want upgrades.

But with a limited budget, trying to build stuff with just the 2 or 3 tools your budget will allow if you are buying Festool is a mistake I think. Some of the Festool stuff is unnecessary, and some is great, and I think it's actually cheaper to upgrade the tools you really need the functionality in, than to buy everything Festool from the start.

[Peter Quadarella]

Also, I would add that building a workbench can be great practice, and is a lot cheaper than buying one. Typically you would get a more sturdy bench than the purchased variety as well. Your first bench doesn't have to be a masterpiece of solid beech and dovetails. You could use borg 2x4s for example.

[Mike Cutler]

OK, here's my two cents worth...

Quality tools are more important for beginners than for pros. I know it sounds odd, but quality tools are easier to set up and keep their settings. Cheap stuff has slop in the settings and makes it much harder to be accurate. With experience, you can work around that issue.


Amen Jesse

I don't have a shop full of expensive tool, mostly mid range to lower stuff (except for hand tools). But I took wood shop throughout Jr. High and High School. Having learned on quality industrial grade machines and hand tools was invaluable to me when I picked woodworking back up as an adult. I knew what the machine was supposed to be able to do. (Of course doing it again was a little different story.:o,;))

Starting out with crappy tools and a lack of knowledge can be a big obstacle to overcome, and may eventually cause a person to give up. Worse yet, it can cause an injury.

[Peter Quadarella]

I agree about the statements regarding quality tools btw. I just don't agree with the subtle implication that anything besides Festool is not quality. Bosch and Makita, for example, make several quality tools.

[Prashun Patel]

I agree with Peter. Believe me, I learned the hard way that buying cheap just doesn't pay.

However, you gotta also be careful not to buy into the hype that the only way to skin a cat is to either buy Festool or a Sawstop.

For example: You can get a great Bosch ROS with an excellent shopvac and hepa filters or a a Fein Turbo and all the hose you want for a fraction of the price of a Festool rotex and a Festool vac. Both are excellent, and the subtleties of the Festool rotex feel might be lost on a beginner.

Another case in point: You can get a $1200 Kapex or a top of the line $600 Bosch 12" SCMS. Both excellent tools, but the Kapex just might be overkill with a lot of nice-to-have-but-not-necessary features.

[Mike Goetzke]

As a beginner I would suggest you start out simple to see if you really like the hobby. I remember I started as a teenager with a circular saw and a router. I now have all the big time tools I can fit in my garage/shop including a nice cabinet saw. I also purchased an EZ guide rail system for breaking down plywood sheets and really like it.

I think you are best off starting with a rail system be it Festool or Eurekazone and build from there.

Mike

Mike

[Alan Wong]

Thanks for all the great responses guys.

So experience, this college level class that goes over all hand tools and machinery, as well has on-hand experience with them all. So all the basic tools I've used or will have a chance to use, and use them safely throughly the next couple months. We have projects with strictly hand tools as well has machine tools.

I am learning more toward power/machine tools compared to making stuff with hand tools. Re-sale value of the festool seems to be very high which is a plus as well.

Do they have sales or is there a good place to buy them from?

-Alan

[John Seiffer]

Alan,
Let me add my experience which is just that. I don't mean to ignite any religious wars.

Quality tools vs cheap tools. I actually believe there is a place for both. The advantage of quality tools is that they are more precise, and easy to adjust to make repeatable cuts. And they last longer and usually feel better when you're using them. This is more important to production shops than a hobbyist. The actual cutting is done by the blade so a good blade in a cheap tool will usually do better than the other way.

Good blades won't compensate for motors that are out of wack but in my experience with cheap tools I haven't found that to be a problem.

Cheap tools are great if you don't think you'll use it a lot or just want play around before you make a big commitment. I have a really cheap (like $20) trim router. Is it a piece of garbage? yes. Do I still use it once in a while? yes. Is it my main router? no but it is my only trim router. For me it was worth the money.

Same with a used 10" band saw I got for $50. Sears has a nice (cheap) one for around $150 (I wish I'd gotten that one). I'm amazed how much I use it. If you want to make craft style furniture with curves, a band saw is great.

And a small band saw is not hard to move a year down the road. Even a big one is easier to move than a table saw.

The EZ Guide by Eurekazone.com is worth comparing to Festool. I have one and it's indispensible for sheet goods. I think you're able to start cheaper and build up the system. The EZ power bench can be used as a work bench as well. The EZ system is a bit more do-it-yourself but there's plenty of advice in the forums.

Folks who've used both EZ and Festool usually have good things to say about each.

I don't think I'd give up my table saw but if I were starting out now I'd certainly buy the EZ Guide and bench combo first and see if I could get away with out one.

If you're mostly using sheet goods or small lumber you can get away without a planer or jointer. You'll pay a bit more for lumber - that's the trade off. A good saw guide (or even router) can be made to replace an edge jointer (though not a face jointer). If you're doing things where you glue up a lot of lumber to make table tops etc then you might want the jointer and planer.

Good luck and have fun!!

[Eric DeSilva]

I'll throw out an odd point of view... Why not get a TS? Even if you don't want to move it, might be worth 10 minutes thinking about buying a decent used saw on craigslist, since chances are you will be able to sell it for nearly what you paid when and if you move. Say you buy it for $750 today, sell it for $700 a year from now. You have effectively rented it for a year for $50. Might be worth considering. As long as you aren't buying new, the depreciation on nice tools isn't really that bad. I've bought a number of largish machines on CL--cabinet TS, 14" BS, 8" jointer, 20" planer, 3HP shaper, power feeder. I still peruse the ads regularly, and I'm pretty confident that I could price the gear for a quick sale and still recover everything I've paid. Not bad at all, but I got very lucky on some of the tools.

Disclaimer. I walked down the Festool slope... They make very nice, very accurate, very well thought out tools with excellent dust collection capabilities. They are not the only ones that make very nice tools. They are not the only ones that make very accurate tools. They are not the only ones who make tools with excellent dust collection. The combination, however, is pretty stunning. I've *never* had buyers remorse after picking up another green machine. It does get expensive, however. I started with a CT-22 vac, TS55 and some rails to break down sheet goods. Since then, the german overlords have probably cashed another $4K in checks of mine.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I submit that you don't pay some one else to make you a bench.
It's a lot cheaper to make your own - and you can make as big a fuss over the construction and details ( or not) however you please.

I's start out with a Kiln dried 2*4 layup the the top if you wanted sturdy and cheap. Then true that flat with a router bridge.


Moving a cabinet saw isn't a big deal so long as you are willing to disassemble it Or don't have to because it's already on the ground level floor.

[Alan Wong]

I'm hoping to square up my stock at my local college for a while so I can get by w/o a jointer/planer.

I did also think of getting a decent bandsaw, since is dosn't take up as much space as a table saw. Maybe a grizzly as I've read good reviews, or a laguna, since their HQ is located in Irivne, CA (same city i live in). These machines weigh several hundred pounds, which sounds like a chore to move. Is resale high on these products, easy to find buyers? I don't mind losing a couple hundred over a year but 50% resale would be painful.

So I am open to still getting a TS or a BS (more likely since space is an issue), just hard to choose which way to go.

-Alan

[Geoff Barry]

Alan,

Each of us answers from our own experience, which, in turn, is shaped by our own habits, talents, etc. I'm a 'beginner' -- while I've made some furniture (mainly coffee/end tables and bookcases) over the last five years or so (and just built an 8x10 shed), and I have made the transition to buying rough lumber, I do not have a lot of time or money to devote to woodworking, so my take on this is defiitely that of an amateur.

Festool stuff is nice. Very nice. Just well-made. However, unless you are working for hours every day with it, you have to decide if it is worth the premium. For example, when the Kapex was first announced, a lot of peole said - who whould by a $1300 SCMS? One of our members, Per Swenson, said "I would. I work on-site, and have to spend a lot of time cleaning up each day. If it has effective dust collection, and cuts accurately, it is worth it to me." (Sorry, Per - a paraphrase at best, but I believe it captures your point). I, on the other hand, use a 10" Delta CMS (non-slider) I got as Costco for $67.97. When you look at what Per builds, at what I build, it becomes clear that I could not build what Per builds even with a $1300 SCMS, and, in a opposite sense, Per could not build what I build even if he used my cheap saw :) Were I to start building furniture on a daily basis (and presumably get a lot better), my calculus might change, however.

Having said that, it is true you don't want to waste money on cheap tools. They will be inaccurate, and you will become irritated with them. But is there anything you intend to do with a Festool guided system that you could not do with a regular circular saw and a straight edge? I break down sheet goods with a $50 skilsaw and an eight-foot steel stud (a couple of dollars). For my occasional use, it works fine, and is cost effective. If I did it all the time, then a Festool would be more attractive. (Note that I'm not saying get a $50 skilsaw -- if it breaks, I'd replace it with a porter cable or hitachi or somesuch saw in the $100-120 range. But it works "well enough")

As someone pointed out above, don't forget that Craigslist is your friend. You can pretty much always find a useable contractor's saw for around $150-200, and sell it for the same in a year or two when you move. I use a $100 craftsman contractor saw I bought at a garage sale. I spent almost as much on the blade -- it is the blade that cuts, so use good ones.

[Peter Quadarella]

Everybody knows Laguna and Grizzly and they will be bought up relatively quickly if they are in decent shape and a few hundred cheaper than a new one. I love the versatility and footprint of a bandsaw.

Regarding hand tools and power tools; ultimately you will probably end up needing some of each - for those final fits and minor corrections, hand tools often much quicker and simpler. No amount of practice in using them will go to waste even if you have the full complement of power tools.

[Jim Becker]

TDo they have sales or is there a good place to buy them from?

No "sales", unfortunately, but some nice bundles. Contact 'Creeker Bob Marino (http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/) who is one of the best folks on the planet to learn about Festool and purchase from. IMHO, of course...

[Dan Clark]

Alan,

I agree with the other members who commented on tool quality. If you buy cheap tools, you will regret it. It's not that you can't good tools at lower cost, but... As a beginner it's very difficult to determine what is decent at a good price and what is low-priced junk.

As you can see from my signature, I have a few Festools. So I'm probably biased. Take what I say with a grain of salt...

Regarding "traditional" power tools, I think are there are some tools that you will want to get - a thickness planer, a jointer (or a sled for your thickness planer), a band saw, and a router table. Also, a decent bench drill press could be useful for furniture. You can use a good jigsaw (some of the Bosch or the Festool jigsaws) in place of a band saw for some things and you can use a hand-held decent router for some things. But a planer, jointer, band saw, and router table provide you with lot's of flexibility.

Regarding a table saw, I don't have one. I've thought about it, but haven't found a situation where my Festool saws (TS55 and Trion D-Handle) or my Japanese pull saws couldn't deal with. The only places where I think a table saw would be significantly better is if you were repeat-cutting LOTs of wood or if ripping a fair amount of small, narrow wood.

Regarding Festool vs EZ... EZ makes good rails and accessories. However, they don't make power tools. So you will have to buy the tools and integrate them into an overall system. For example, you'll need to get a good quality circular saw to get good results.

IF you already have a good quality saw and other accoutrements, then the EZ system makes sense. If you don't have these, then a big question is, do you want to integrate your own system?

One advantage of Festool is that they make a tool system. Their vacs work with almost all Festool power tools. (Sorry, no dust collection on their drills! :)) The Festool saws and most of their other tools have dust collection built it. The Festool saws' base plates are designed to work with their guide rail system. Other tools like the jig saws and routers have accessories to allow them to be used with their guide rails. The guide rails can be attached to their MFT's. The MFTs can be used with a bunch of Festool-made clamps and accessories. And almost all of their tools come in an integrated system of storage containers called Systainers.

Are Festool tools absolutely perfect? No, of course not. Only an idiot would believe that any tool or system is perfect. But the tools are high quality and reliable, it works, and most importantly, the Festool system is already integrated. Part of the reason the Festool fanciers like Festool is that we spend more time being productive and less time trying to make our tools work.

The downside of Festool? Cost. They are spendy. I like to think of TANSTFL (There Ain't No Such Thing as a Free Lunch!)

Good luck with you decision.

Regards,

Dan.

[Jim Becker]

Dino, I think that Dan probably just meant you don't manufacture the power tools originally. It's absolutely true that you do modify/extend/enhance tools that are well suited to the EZ system components that you do design, build and sell. The word "sell" was an unfortunate term given the ability you have to resell is there and in play. And that's an excellent business approach.

[Burt Waddell]

The term "Quality tools" seems to be used a lot in this thread. I sense that some of the posters are trying to say that if it isn't Festool, it isn't a quality tool.

I own a Festool circular saw and MFT. The saw is covered in dust and MFT serves as a junk holder. I fail to see all of the excitement about the festool equipment. I use my Hilti saw and EZ rail systems on a daily basis.

We often hear of the Festool System and others refer to the "Slippery slope". I think these are one in the same. You see the Festool TS 55 is designed with limited power - 10 amps. Now that will cut any wood IF you have the correct blade. In a recent post by Dan Clark on another forum, he seemed to be saying that you couldn't cut plywood with a rough cut blade because it would damage the saw. You need the "system" - the correct length rail, the correct blade, and then your saw can cut.

As for quality tools, most of us, would define these as bosch, Makita, PC, DeWalt, Milwaukee etc. Most of these tools are highly adequate to do whatever we need to have done.

When we elevate to the high end Hilti ( and for some people Festool), we are in a league that could be called Luxury Tools. Performance is better than the quality tools but not enough for most to justify it. They do have more bells and whistles. Now if you are using them daily like I do the Hilti's or Money is no object, then the Luxury tools are great.

Burt

[Mike Heidrick]

A friend I work with has no shop. He owns a 12" SCMS and the 6 tool bag of Dewalt 18V power tools. He bought a house that needed a lot of work. He decided he wanted to build some shelves and cabinets (lots of 3/4" oak and maple sheets being cut) for the house. He purchased a TS55/CT22 saw/vac combo set and the OF1400 router. Also he bought a 150/3EQ sander (convinced me to get one and they are great) and I think one extra 55" guide. Man he loves them and has built his projects. They store easily (compared to owning a shop full of tools) and recently they added some more wands to the vac to help clean up their house more. It does work for him!!

I think Festool and EZ are great ideas. Eventually he may build a building for a small shop but for now Festool is his answer to the tools he needs.

[Peter Pedisich]

Like others have said, Makita, PC, Milwaukee, Bosch & DeWalt are all certainly good enough for any task. In fact, some of them are great.

At the bottom of the price range is some junk, and some surprisingly good tools. Hard to know when it will be the good and not junk.

In the middle upper range (see brands above) there are mostly decent, often very good, and occasionaly brilliant tools.

In the top range (Festool, Hilti, Mafell) are mostly excellent, sometimes average, and occasionally disappointing tools.

I bought a Festool saw/rail combo a few years back and I love it, but after having it a while I got a EZ rail and base for an older Bosch CS I already had to use on site, and it gives me the same great results! I could have saved a lot of money and still had a quality product. So if you have a circular saw already, you should try a beginner set from EZ, you'll be impressed.

Don't ever let tool brand get in the way of enjoying woodworking!

[Bob Marino]

The term "Quality tools" seems to be used a lot in this thread. I sense that some of the posters are trying to say that if it isn't Festool, it isn't a quality tool.

I own a Festool circular saw and MFT. The saw is covered in dust and MFT serves as a junk holder. I fail to see all of the excitement about the festool equipment. I use my Hilti saw and EZ rail systems on a daily basis.

We often hear of the Festool System and others refer to the "Slippery slope". I think these are one in the same. You see the Festool TS 55 is designed with limited power - 10 amps. Now that will cut any wood IF you have the correct blade. In a recent post by Dan Clark on another forum, he seemed to be saying that you couldn't cut plywood with a rough cut blade because it would damage the saw. You need the "system" - the correct length rail, the correct blade, and then your saw can cut.

As for quality tools, most of us, would define these as bosch, Makita, PC, DeWalt, Milwaukee etc. Most of these tools are highly adequate to do whatever we need to have done.

When we elevate to the high end Hilti ( and for some people Festool), we are in a league that could be called Luxury Tools. Performance is better than the quality tools but not enough for most to justify it. They do have more bells and whistles. Now if you are using them daily like I do the Hilti's or Money is no object, then the Luxury tools are great.

Burt
Burt,

Question for you. If your TS 55 and MFT are gathering dust, why haven't you availed yourself of Festool's 30 day money back guarantee? Or if that time has long since passed, why not sell it on the Creek, Ebay, Craigs List or any other WW forum? You'd be surpised how quickly they'd sell and how well they command a good price. There just aren't many up for sale.
I have my own opinions regarding why you haven't, but that's another matter.
Anyhow, I am in total agreement with those who say Festool tools aren't the only high quality tools available - Bosch, Hilti, Makita, Milwaukee come quickly to mind.
Having said all that, I have been selling Festool tools for better than 6 years, and have sold several hundred ATF and TS 55, 65 and 75 saws as well as probably a couple of hundred MFT'S. I can count one hand the number of the saws and MFT's returned. That's the truth. That says more to me than ads/hype/competetor's comments or whatever.

Bob

[Rafael Carias]

I'm hoping to square up my stock at my local college for a while so I can get by w/o a jointer/planer.



-Alan


Alan, you can get S3S (surfaced 3 sides) wood at Austin hardwoods in Santa Ana at very competitive prices if need be.

[Jesse Cloud]

Great thread!

Here's a couple more cents worth...

Definitely use your school shop to square up your stock. Jointers and planers are big, heavy, expensive, and take a lot of expert maintenance.

I think a band saw is a good investment. Even if you go the Festool route, you will probably need a bandsaw. The big ones will, however, require 220V - if your shop isn't wired, plan for some extra expense here - lots of discussions on this on this forum.

I didn't mean to imply that Festool is the only quality tool out there. I have some DeWalt, some Delta, some Bosch, etc. that are solid quality tools. On the other hand, I have sold off most of my DeWally, Delta, and Bosch because they just gathered dust after I started using Festool.

One important question to ask yourself is why you are doing this. If your goal is to produce woodwork that you can sell at a low price, then high end tools may not make sense. Personally, I do woodworking because I enjoy it and that enjoyment is heightened by tools that delight me every time I use them.

Another factor is how much time you have. Even though I'm retired, I generally have to limit shop time to short spurts of an hour or two at a time. The fact that I can make a few dozen mortise and tenon joints in a couple of hours with no cleanup makes Festool worth the $$ for me.

There's no one answer that fits all sizes. But having said that, I suggest you pick a direction and stay with it - you will save $$ and build skills more quickly that way. Personally, I started with the cheap route and all those upgrades cost me a lot more than I would have spent if I had started with quality.

Keep in touch!

[Alan Wong]

Alan, you can get S3S (surfaced 3 sides) wood at Austin hardwoods in Santa Ana at very competitive prices if need be.

I have been meaning to check this place out. It opens during regular work hours so hard for me to get out there. Gotta find some time on a saturday to check it out. I am leaning toward purchasing S3S for now, investing in a planer/jointer is a little too overwhelming at the moment. Thanks for the advice!

-Alan

[Alan Wong]

Great thread!

Here's a couple more cents worth...

Definitely use your school shop to square up your stock. Jointers and planers are big, heavy, expensive, and take a lot of expert maintenance.

I think a band saw is a good investment. Even if you go the Festool route, you will probably need a bandsaw. The big ones will, however, require 220V - if your shop isn't wired, plan for some extra expense here - lots of discussions on this on this forum.

I didn't mean to imply that Festool is the only quality tool out there. I have some DeWalt, some Delta, some Bosch, etc. that are solid quality tools. On the other hand, I have sold off most of my DeWally, Delta, and Bosch because they just gathered dust after I started using Festool.

One important question to ask yourself is why you are doing this. If your goal is to produce woodwork that you can sell at a low price, then high end tools may not make sense. Personally, I do woodworking because I enjoy it and that enjoyment is heightened by tools that delight me every time I use them.

Another factor is how much time you have. Even though I'm retired, I generally have to limit shop time to short spurts of an hour or two at a time. The fact that I can make a few dozen mortise and tenon joints in a couple of hours with no cleanup makes Festool worth the $$ for me.

There's no one answer that fits all sizes. But having said that, I suggest you pick a direction and stay with it - you will save $$ and build skills more quickly that way. Personally, I started with the cheap route and all those upgrades cost me a lot more than I would have spent if I had started with quality.

Keep in touch!

Thanks for all the advice! I am a 23yr old yuppie, design engineer.
Everything I plan to make is mainly for personal use and/or family/friends. I want to make some fine furniture. I've always enjoyed building something of my own, its very fullfilling, and building a piece of fine furniture would be great and practical, instead of spending a fortune on store bought furniture. I really like the arts/crafts style furniture and semi-inspired me to pick-up woodworking. I hope to design some original pieces of my own in the future after I've refined my skills.
So time wise, roughly ~5-15 hours a week. Maybe i'll get swept up in a project and spend 20+ hours, but we'll see.

Direction-wise I think i've determined to go straight for "quality" tools, just not sure the festool direction or TS/BS direction.

I appreciate everyones responses!

[Tim Sproul]

.......I really like the arts/crafts style furniture ............

Direction-wise I think i've determined to go straight for "quality" tools, just not sure the festool direction or TS/BS direction.



I have Festool, I've had the EZ (it is a good system, just didn't suit my work style, my peculiarities, etc.) and I have a TS, BS, etc.

For arts & crafts oriented furniture, I'd recommend you consider the table saw route. Why? That style of furniture has lots of more narrow sticks that combine to give the furniture substance. This means you need to do a lot of repetitive rips and this is what a table saw really excells at above any other tooling (well, typically available for the hobbyist). The Festool system is great but it is a PITA to set up the guide rail system to do accurately repeatable rips over and over.

So....if you are going to do a lot of arts & crafts style stuff....get a table saw over the Festool system or EZ system. Best is to get both, but......$$$.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I have Festool, I've had the EZ (it is a good system, just didn't suit my work style, my peculiarities, etc.) and I have a TS, BS, etc.

For arts & crafts oriented furniture, I'd recommend you consider the table saw route. Why? That style of furniture has lots of more narrow sticks that combine to give the furniture substance. This means you need to do a lot of repetitive rips and this is what a table saw really excells at above any other tooling (well, typically available for the hobbyist). The Festool system is great but it is a PITA to set up the guide rail system to do accurately repeatable rips over and over.
So....if you are going to do a lot of arts & crafts style stuff....get a table saw over the Festool system or EZ system. Best is to get both, but......$$$.

Tim,
Have you seen the EZ-PBB? (power bench/bridge)

If Festool is not up to the task, ( for narrow, repeat cuts )
why include the ez system to this problem?

Narrow and repeat cuts are extreme dificult and dangerous on the tablesaw.
Pita with any guide system...but easy, safe and accurate with the EZ System.

Here is a video with the proof.
As you can see the ez PBB comes with a ripping fence, squaring fence and the entire bridge works like a huge clamp.
Even without the PBB the ez system is capable of narrow and repeat cuts.

I post this to provide correct information about the ez system.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXV2XJTwn9Y

Thanks.

YCF Dino
Eurekazone

[Dan Clark]

Thanks for all the advice! I am a 23yr old yuppie, design engineer.
Everything I plan to make is mainly for personal use and/or family/friends. I want to make some fine furniture. I've always enjoyed building something of my own, its very fullfilling, and building a piece of fine furniture would be great and practical, instead of spending a fortune on store bought furniture. I really like the arts/crafts style furniture and semi-inspired me to pick-up woodworking. I hope to design some original pieces of my own in the future after I've refined my skills.
So time wise, roughly ~5-15 hours a week. Maybe i'll get swept up in a project and spend 20+ hours, but we'll see.

Direction-wise I think i've determined to go straight for "quality" tools, just not sure the festool direction or TS/BS direction.

I appreciate everyones responses!
Tony,

I think the key issue is table saw plus other tools versus vs Festool plus other tools. The subtlety here is that many Festool owners also have other power tools. They aren't mutually exclusive. For example, I have a Dewalt planer and a Bosch miter saw. I'd like to get a band saw, a bench drill press, and maybe a small contractor-style table saw.

I would argue that the Festool approach is more flexible. You can mix and match components as you need them. And you can move your "shop" to the location of the work. And you can store your "shop" in a small amount of space. However...

You indicate that you'd like to build furniture. So maybe a table saw is the best option. Maybe Festool plus a small table saw is the best option. Not an easy decision.

Here's a link to Jerry Work's website: http://www.jerrywork.com/. Jerry is a Festool user and is a professional woodworker who makes LOVELY furniture. Take a look at his "Portfolio" and "Studio Tour".

Regards,

Dan.

[Burt Waddell]

Tony,

I think the key issue is table saw plus other tools versus vs Festool plus other tools. The subtlety here is that many Festool owners also have other power tools. They aren't mutually exclusive. For example, I have a Dewalt planer and a Bosch miter saw. I'd like to get a band saw, a bench drill press, and maybe a small contractor-style table saw.

I would argue that the Festool approach is more flexible. You can mix and match components as you need them. And you can move your "shop" to the location of the work. And you can store your "shop" in a small amount of space. However...

You indicate that you'd like to build furniture. So maybe a table saw is the best option. Maybe Festool plus a small table saw is the best option. Not an easy decision.

Here's a link to Jerry Work's website: http://www.jerrywork.com/. Jerry is a Festool user and is a professional woodworker who makes LOVELY furniture. Take a look at his "Portfolio" and "Studio Tour".

Regards,

Dan.


Dan,

I've got to agree with you that if he goes with the Festool he will also need to have the Table saw. Festool has no provisions for narrow or repeat cuts and the rail is to weak to function in a bridge configuration.

Also he needs to remember if that he goes with the Festool, he must buy the system. In addition to the saw and rail, he will need all of the Festool blades to complete the system and to be able to cut a variety of materials. Also he needs to plan in advance or have a machinist friend because the local big boxes and hardware stores don't have blades to fit the Festool.

Oh, Yes. Thanks for the new EZ stuff. That adapter is great!!

Burt

[Steve Sawyer]

Let me chime in with others in that you can't go wrong by getting high-quality tools for all the reasons mentioned. Most of us who have tried to save a few bucks by spending $70 on a cheap jigsaw have eventually spent the $150 (or more) for a good one.

What I haven't seen mentioned is that better tools retain their value, should you ever want to upgrade even further, or decide that something that you purchased isn't being used as as much as you'd anticipated.

One alternative that I haven't seen suggested is to start out as a Galoot/Neanderthal. Our woodworking club has several members who use almost nothing powered save maybe a band saw. They have a lot of fun, are some of our most knowledgeable members, and they produce some beautiful work. The money you would spend on high-quality power tools will go a long way toward equipping yourself with good Veritas or Lie-Nielsen planes, Ashley and Ray Iles chisels, vintage Disston panel saws, Adria tenon and carcase saws etc. This is all easily transportable, also retains it's value, and the skills you learn will ALWAYS be of great value even if you become a "hybrid" woodworker who uses both powered and hand tools.

You can start by looking at what tools you need to construct a good workbench, build that, then acquire additional hand tools as needed for future projects. When you become more settled and can invest in the table saw, planer, jointer and power hand tools, you'll be that much more capable.

[Bob Marino]

Dan,

I've got to agree with you that if he goes with the Festool he will also need to have the Table saw. Festool has no provisions for narrow or repeat cuts and the rail is to weak to function in a bridge configuration.

Also he needs to remember if that he goes with the Festool, he must buy the system. In addition to the saw and rail, he will need all of the Festool blades to complete the system and to be able to cut a variety of materials. Also he needs to plan in advance or have a machinist friend because the local big boxes and hardware stores don't have blades to fit the Festool.

Oh, Yes. Thanks for the new EZ stuff. That adapter is great!!

Burt

Burt,

You are simply mistaken regarding regarding cutting narrow stock or repeat cuts with the Festool system. This is not to take anything away from the EZ Repeaters or Bridge, which excel at this type of operation. If you are refering to an out of the box part Repeater type part, that is correct, but there have been numerous, simple, very inexpensive ways to do so - many have been posted by John Lucas, Jerry Work and others. The MFT does have such a part, called a Longitudinal Stop.
Regarding having to get different Festool blades for different materials, you could not be more wrong. The standard supplied fine tooth blade will cut wood, aluminum, solid surface, plastic, MDF, etc. It's just that Festool offers these specialized blades primarily as a result of supplying/dealing with different professional markets - solid surface fabricators, flooring, cabinet making, furniture building. Also, the variable speed of the TS saws, helps to ensure the right speed for cuting different materials to attain the best cuts.
I understand your preference and support of the EZ system; that's fine, that's what choices are all about, but you do everyone and IMHO yourself, a disservice by posting misinformation regarding the Festool tools and accessories.

Bob

[Burt Waddell]

Burt,

You are simply mistaken regarding regarding cutting narrow stock or repeat cuts with the Festool system. This is not to take anything away from the EZ Repeaters or Bridge, which excel at this type of operation. If you are refering to an out of the box part Repeater type part, that is correct, but there have been numerous, simple, very inexpensive ways to do so - many have been posted by John Lucas, Jerry Work and others. The MFT does have such a part, called a Longitudinal Stop.
Regarding having to get different Festool blades for different materials, you could not be more wrong. The standard supplied fine tooth blade will cut wood, aluminum, solid surface, plastic, MDF, etc. It's just that Festool offers these specialized blades primarily as a result of supplying/dealing with different professional markets - solid surface fabricators, flooring, cabinet making, furniture building. Also, the variable speed of the TS saws, helps to ensure the right speed for cuting different materials to attain the best cuts.
I understand your preference and support of the EZ system; that's fine, that's what choices are all about, but you do everyone and IMHO yourself, a disservice by posting misinformation regarding the Festool tools and accessories.

Bob

Bob,

We both know where we each stand on this subject. I've tried Festool and prefer the EZ equipment. I don't know if you have tried EZ but you are certainly a Festool supporter.

I also realize that your opinions are influenced by the simple fact that you make a considerable income from selling Festool products.

My involvement with EZ is as a satisfied customer.

Could you be specific about mis-information that you say I have posted? I'm not aware of any.

Burt

[Dan Clark]

Dan,

I've got to agree with you that if he goes with the Festool he will also need to have the Table saw. Festool has no provisions for narrow or repeat cuts and the rail is to weak to function in a bridge configuration.

Also he needs to remember if that he goes with the Festool, he must buy the system. In addition to the saw and rail, he will need all of the Festool blades to complete the system and to be able to cut a variety of materials. Also he needs to plan in advance or have a machinist friend because the local big boxes and hardware stores don't have blades to fit the Festool.

Oh, Yes. Thanks for the new EZ stuff. That adapter is great!!

Burt
Burt,

As Bob mentioned, you do a disservice to yourself and Sawmill Creek members by posting disinformation like this.

I took me a couple of minutes to create a quick and dirty repeat cuts jig. Others have created some very nice jigs to make repeat cuts. It's just not an issue.

Regarding "...he will also need to have the Table saw.", this is complete rubbish. I've been thinking about a small table saw table saw for almost two years. Every time I thought I needed one, I figured out a way to work around the issue. EVERY TIME! Right now a table saw is about fifth or sixth down my list of major purchases. Every user is different and their needs are different. Some people need a table saw; some don't.

Regarding blades, if you want to buy blades from the big box stores, go for it. You can get a bunch of cheap ones and a few decent ones. OTOH...

You can get quality Festool blades from multiple online and local retailers, including two of the largest nationwide chains - Woodcraft and Rockler, and a whole host of other local retailers. In addition, the premiere maker of fine blades - Forrest - makes blades for the TS55 and TS75: http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/category_1_Woodworker_I.html and for the Festool Kapex: http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/product_617_CHOPMASTER_Saw_Blade_for_the_NEW_FESTO OL_KAPEX_KS_120_10_Sl.html.

Regarding, "...he must buy the system." This is also complete rubbish. Users buy Festool tools and accessories because they WANT to buy them. Because it's the easiest and fastest way to meet their needs. OTOH...

Many Festool owners find tools from other brands fit their needs better. I have a DW735 planer and Bosch miter saw (not as good as a Kapex, but I already own it). I have several Makita tools which serve me well. It's not difficult to integrate them into your Festool-based system if you want to. Some examples:


On Brice Burrell's site, I reviewed the Makita 9903 belt sander and showed how you could connect it to a Festool vac (using a Fein hose adapter - part number 921072K13) for dust free belt sanding. I also showed how attach the 9903 to a Festool MFT to make a servicable on-site fixed belt sander. Here's the link to my review: http://www.burrellcustomcarpentry.com/subpage36.html.



This morning, I hooked up my Fein Multimaster with the dust collection accessory hooked to my Festool vac. Its a great way to remove grout or excess thinset from tile joints with very little dust.



Many Festool users own a Fein vac and get excellent results. Some do it because they own one already. Some do it because they like Fein better. No problem.



As combo in-feed and outfeed tables, and as MFT extensions I strongly recommend the Ridgid Flip Top Work Support. $30 at Homers: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100618242&N=10000003+10044004+502400.

Festool owners think outside the box. They choose what meets their needs best. Sometimes Festool. Sometimes not. The Festool integrated system is there. You can add Festool and non-Festool tools to a solution that best meets your needs at the time.

Regards,

Dan.

[Bob Marino]

Bob,

We both know where we each stand on this subject. I've tried Festool and prefer the EZ equipment. I don't know if you have tried EZ but you are certainly a Festool supporter.

I also realize that your opinions are influenced by the simple fact that you make a considerable income from selling Festool products.

My involvement with EZ is as a satisfied customer.

Could you be specific about mis-information that you say I have posted? I'm not aware of any.

Burt

Sure Burt. Basically your last post.


I've got to agree with you that if he goes with the Festool he will also need to have the Table saw. Festool has no provisions for narrow or repeat cuts and the rail is to weak to function in a bridge configuration.

Also he needs to remember if that he goes with the Festool, he must buy the system. In addition to the saw and rail, he will need all of the Festool blades to complete the system and to be able to cut a variety of materials.

1. You sure can cut narrow or repeat cuts.

2. You do not need to buy all the blades to cut various materials.

I breifly elaborated on the above in my last post. What you see as my opinions (being able to cut narrow stock, repeat cuts, not having to buy all the different blades to cut different materials) are simply and plainly facts, not opinions - I and others do so all the time.

I have not tried the EZ system, but had the pleasure of meeting Dino a few times at he shows here in NJ. Since I have never tried the EZ system, you don't see me commenting on which system is better, you know, the different strokes for different folks thing is the way I see it and generally stay out of these posts, but on occasion will challenge incorrect info, such as yours being posted.

Bob

[Ted Miller]

Bob and Dan, Please just add him to "ignore" it's not worth wasting your time by responding.

Lets help Alan by keeping his thread on topic...

[Burt Waddell]

Sure Burt. Basically your last post.


1. You sure can cut narrow or repeat cuts.

2. You do not need to buy all the blades to cut various materials.

I breifly elaborated on the above in my last post. What you see as my opinions (being able to cut narrow stock, repeat cuts, not having to buy all the different blades to cut different materials) are simply and plainly facts, not opinions - I and others do so all the time.

Bob

Bob,

Dino has provided us with a video of the EZ System doing small cuts and showed how it does repeat cuts. Can you provide us a video of the Festool doing the same?

Also could you include a photo of the 48 tooth blade on the TS 55 cutting a 2" piece of hardwood - oak or maple would work fine. I know I often see posts where usage of other festool blades are recommended.

Burt

[Dennis Peacock]

Good thread....but be aware that many moderators are watching this thread carefully.

[Burt Waddell]

Burt,

As Bob mentioned, you do a disservice to yourself and Sawmill Creek members by posting disinformation like this.

Dan, show me where I've posted anything that is not correct and I will correct it.

I took me a couple of minutes to create a quick and dirty repeat cuts jig. Others have created some very nice jigs to make repeat cuts. It's just not an issue.

Seems I remember a big deal about people on FOG trying to make copies of the repeaters. In other words, Festool offers no solutions. They are all "user created."

Regarding "...he will also need to have the Table saw.", this is complete rubbish. I've been thinking about a small table saw table saw for almost two years. Every time I thought I needed one, I figured out a way to work around the issue. EVERY TIME! Right now a table saw is about fifth or sixth down my list of major purchases. Every user is different and their needs are different. Some people need a table saw; some don't.

Dan, go to "FOG" and do a search for table saw. A very high percentage of users also have a table saw.

Regarding blades, if you want to buy blades from the big box stores, go for it. You can get a bunch of cheap ones and a few decent ones. OTOH...

I'll admit that I live out in the middle of no where, but if I needed a Festool blade is a good 50 mile drive to the nearest store that stocks one.

You can get quality Festool blades from multiple online and local retailers, including two of the largest nationwide chains - Woodcraft and Rockler, and a whole host of other local retailers. In addition, the premiere maker of fine blades - Forrest - makes blades for the TS55 and TS75: http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/category_1_Woodworker_I.html and for the Festool Kapex: http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/product_617_CHOPMASTER_Saw_Blade_for_the_NEW_FESTO OL_KAPEX_KS_120_10_Sl.html.

No arguement. But again, I drive 50 miles or wait on ups.

Regarding, "...he must buy the system." This is also complete rubbish. Users buy Festool tools and accessories because they WANT to buy them. Because it's the easiest and fastest way to meet their needs. OTOH...

To cut it takes the rails plus the saw plus the blades - that is a cutting system

Many Festool owners find tools from other brands fit their needs better. I have a DW735 planer and Bosch miter saw (not as good as a Kapex, but I already own it). I have several Makita tools which serve me well. It's not difficult to integrate them into your Festool-based system if you want to. Some examples:


On Brice Burrell's site, I reviewed the Makita 9903 belt sander and showed how you could connect it to a Festool vac (using a Fein hose adapter - part number 921072K13) for dust free belt sanding. I also showed how attach the 9903 to a Festool MFT to make a servicable on-site fixed belt sander. Here's the link to my review: http://www.burrellcustomcarpentry.com/subpage36.html.


This morning, I hooked up my Fein Multimaster with the dust collection accessory hooked to my Festool vac. Its a great way to remove grout or excess thinset from tile joints with very little dust.


Many Festool users own a Fein vac and get excellent results. Some do it because they own one already. Some do it because they like Fein better. No problem.


As combo in-feed and outfeed tables,
(Is this for the table saw he doesn't need)
and as MFT extensions I strongly recommend the Ridgid Flip Top Work Support. $30 at Homers: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100618242&N=10000003+10044004+502400.
Festool owners think outside the box. They choose what meets their needs best. Sometimes Festool. Sometimes not. The Festool integrated system is there. You can add Festool and non-Festool tools to a solution that best meets your needs at the time.

Regards,

Dan.

Can you explain how cutting plywood with a rough cut blade will damage a TS-55?

[Dan Clark]

Dennis,

The OP has some very valid questions and issues since he will be spending some money in the near future. He needs a much information as possible. I wish him well in his decision regardless of what it is.

That said, this thread is veering towards a precipice. The quality of the discussion has dropped badly and the !#$% level has skyrocketed. Please moderate as necessary.

Best regards,

Dan.

[Burt Waddell]

Good thread....but be aware that many moderators are watching this thread carefully.

Dennis,

I'm trying to stay on point and not get personal.

Burt

[Rafael Carias]

Dan,

.

Also he needs to remember if that he goes with the Festool, he must buy the system. In addition to the saw and rail, he will need all of the Festool blades to complete the system and to be able to cut a variety of materials. Also he needs to plan in advance or have a machinist friend because the local big boxes and hardware stores don't have blades to fit the Festool.



Burt


Well, if he goes with EZ he will need more that the rails & saw right? if you do the math a decently equipped EZ set up will cost simirlarly to a festool system (saw, guides, mft, and accessories)

And I don't how you are basing you conclusion on the blades, he will not need "all of the festool blades". He will need 3 blades at max or he can get along with 2 (one for fine cuts and another one for ripping). Another thing about festool blades is that they will last a long time and you can have them re- sharpened (not necessarily by "a machinist friend").

[Dan Clark]

Well, if he goes with EZ he will need more that the rails & saw right? if you do the math a decently equipped EZ set up will cost simirlarly to a festool system (saw, guides, mft, and accessories)

And I don't how you are basing you conclusion on the blades, he will not need "all of the festool blades". He will need 3 blades at max or he can get along with 2 (one for fine cuts and another one for ripping). Another thing about festool blades is that they will last a long time and you can have them re- sharpened (not necessarily by "a machinist friend").
Rafeal,

Don't go addin' facts to this discussion. People might start gettin' confused. :D :cool:

Regards,

Dan.

[Bob Marino]

Bob,

Dino has provided us with a video of the EZ System doing small cuts and showed how it does repeat cuts. Can you provide us a video of the Festool doing the same?

Also could you include a photo of the 48 tooth blade on the TS 55 cutting a 2" piece of hardwood - oak or maple would work fine. I know I often see posts where usage of other festool blades are recommended.

Burt


As I stated in my previous posts, repeat cuts and cutting narrow stock is done all the time with the Festool saw and rails. I am not sure if Festool has such videos - they make more tools than videos, but John Lucas and others have such demos on their sites. Others, simply make do with a simple, cheap jig, as Dan posted. If you use the MFT, the Longitudinal Stop is used for repeat and/or narrow cuts.
Burt, the max depth of cut with the TS 55 is 1 15/16" straight down WITH ANY BLADE. With the TS 75, the max cut is 2 3/4".
I have "flipped the boards" to make cuts in very thick stock, with perfect results. But just with ts's, there are blades best suited for different applications, but just because they are offered, you need not buy to make most cuts. I know when I had my Dewalt ts, I reached a certain point when ripping very thick stock in qswo, I had to switch to a rip blade to avoid stalling/burning.


Bob

[Burt Waddell]

Well, if he goes with EZ he will need more that the rails & saw right? if you do the math a decently equipped EZ set up will cost simirlarly to a festool system (saw, guides, mft, and accessories)

If you go for the power bench and the complete EZ System, it will cost more than the Festool but it is capable of doing a lot more than the festool. As some participants in this discussion have mentioned EZ has solutions for problems such as repeat cuts. With Festool each user has to find his own solution.

And I don't how you are basing you conclusion on the blades, he will not need "all of the festool blades". He will need 3 blades at max or he can get along with 2 (one for fine cuts and another one for ripping). Another thing about festool blades is that they will last a long time and you can have them re- sharpened (not necessarily by "a machinist friend").

The "Machinist Friend" comment was because you can't get a blade to fit a Festool at most stores. A machinist can modify a blade to fit the Festool,

The comment about needing all of the blades is simple: The Festool TS 55 is a 10 amp saw. Most decent saws are at least 13 amp and many are 15 amp. Simply stated the 55 is underpowered. To compensate for this Festool developed a finely tuned set of blades to allow the TS 55 to operate at max efficiency.

[Bob Marino]

The "Machinist Friend" comment was because you can't get a blade to fit a Festool at most stores. A machinist can modify a blade to fit the Festool,

The comment about needing all of the blades is simple: The Festool TS 55 is a 10 amp saw. Most decent saws are at least 13 amp and many are 15 amp. Simply stated the 55 is underpowered. To compensate for this Festool developed a finely tuned set of blades to allow the TS 55 to operate at max efficiency.

Only partialy wrong this time, Burt. The Festool saw has been around since the 60's. It was designed with cabinet making and flooring in mind. The blades were designed for the markets that Festool has been and continues to lead in - flooring, solid surface and cabinet making. Few hobbyists may buy the "Solid surface blade" but he ss shops sure do.
Having said that, Festool offers 2 saws, almost always has.

Bob

[Jim Becker]

Ok folks...this thread has greatly deviated from the OP's original question. It's closed for now...

Jim
SMC Moderator