Large Shoulder plane for shooting miters?

[Will Blick]

I would think a larger shoulder plane, with min. 1.25" wide blade, such as Veritas Large Shoulder plane would be an ideal plane to shoot miters.... however, I never see them advertised for such.

The veritas is flat on the sides and the handles move to a comfortable position to shoot. Any thoughts? Any 1.5" shoulder planes?

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/images_p/G%21901.jpg

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/images_p/G%21901B.jpg+


LN Iron miter seems fit for the job at $390 with side handle, in which case, I think my LV BU jack would be as useful..... however, it just seemed for thin boards the Large Shoulder plane would be ideal, assuming the blade isn't too short, as this shooting board I just ordered is angled...

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/9_lg.jpg

[Mike Henderson]

A shoulder plane won't work on a shooting board because the blade goes completely across the plane. You would "plane" the shooting board as well as the work.

A shooting board depends upon that small amount of space to the side of the mouth of the plane. That space is not planed away on the shooting board and the plane rides on that when you use it.

For low cost, I think the best thing is to make a wooden shooting plane.

Mike

[Will Blick]

Interesting Mike.... I never used a shooter before, so did not think about that.... even so, I am trying to imagine what you are suggesting....

How does the sides of the mouth make contact with the shooter?

[Mike Henderson]

You've given me an idea. You could take an old wooden plane like the one shown in the picture and glue a board maybe 1/8" to 3/16" thick on the lower side (over the whole side). That would be the same as the space on the side of the mouth of a regular plane.

These rabbet planes are cheap as can be on eBay so you shouldn't feel bad about modifying one of them.

Mike

[Here's one almost 2" wide, with a skew blade for about $12 - eBay 250279600783. No affiliation with the seller.]

[Joel Goodman]

Mike,

I haven't used a shooting board but am interested. Isn't a little weight a good idea to give the plane some momentum. Or am I missing something?

[Mike Henderson]

Any plane used with a shooting board must have a blade that doesn't go completely across the plane. See the pictures below of a #6 plane. Note that on each side of the mouth there's a small amount of metal where the blade can't go. The blade cuts the shooting board to the amount that it sticks out of the bottom of the plane. But there's a portion of the shooting board that's not cut, and that's the part that lines up with the space on the side of the mouth (the lower side of the mouth). The plane winds up riding against that ridge on the shooting board.

Mike

[Will Blick]

Mike, I was following what you were saying.... but the pix of the shooter had me confused....as I saw no bottom lip...

But from your last post, you are saying, when you break-in the shooter, your plane will plane the side of the shooter, till the solid area (as in your pix) hits the side board on the shooter, now the shooter is fine tuned to that particular plane, right?

IF so, I guess a plane with a largest gap is ideal for this job? The larger the gap, the more wood the plane rides on?

And, it makes sense to use the same plane on a given shooter to prevent continued cutting of the shooter?

[Mike Henderson]

I tend to use the same plane for shooting all the time, but that's just because I don't have that many choices. I plan to make a wooden shooting plane soon.

I would think that most planes will have about the same space on the side of the mouth so you could probably move from one to another without any real problems. It's only if one plane had the blade very close to the bottom (or side, depending on how you look at it) and cut the ridge thinner. Otherwise, the "new" plane will just ride against the existing ridge, same as the "old" plane.

You don't have to look for the plane with the most space by the mouth - any plane will have plenty of space to work fine.

Is that a picture of the shooting board you bought (or made)?

Mike

[Will Blick]

OK, seems like I got it :-)

I ordered that shooter from Craftsman studio, on sale for $95

I would think the most ideal plane would have a block side, like the LN pictured above.... (hence why I thought the Larger should plane would work well also, as it has a large flat side) the more plane surface available to ride on the shooter, the easier the shoot..... I am surprised Veritas has not attacked this yet :-)

[Mike Henderson]

That #9 plane is way overkill, in my opinion. I wonder how many people buy it and rarely use it. The effective angle on it is 45* so it's the same as a bench plane. IMHO $400 is a lot of money to have in a special purpose tool, when you can use a regular bench plane just as well.

I mostly use my #5 1/2 on my shooting board (because it's fairly heavy) and find it works fine - as long as I keep the blade sharp. I am planning to build a special wooden shooting plane soon.

I am fairly cheap, however. Or frugal, depending on how you look at it.:)

Mike

[Mike K Wenzloff]

...I am surprised Veritas has not attacked this yet :-)
Several of the LV planes work well. The LA smoother, the LA Jack, not to mention the bevel down planes. The same goes for vintage Stanley and new LN or Clifton planes.

I used one of my Jacks for years. I bought a LN #9 and it was a wonderful shoot board plane. I used it as well with my miter jack and donkey's ear board. Sometimes I regret selling it.

The only prerequisite for a decent plane for use on a shooting board is that the sides are square to the sole, or the blade can be adjusted to compensate for any side not square to the sole.

Like Mike says, a sharp blade is a must. That applies whether the plane is a LA bevel up plane or a bevel down bench plane.

Take care, Mike

[Will Blick]

I have the LV LA Jack.... it appears to have the same side wings as the LA Smoother as Mike K suggests. The difference is length of course, 9" vs. 15".... I would think the added length of the jack can't hurt as its adds more guidance, albeit probably a bit more clumsy to use, but more heft.

I am curious why there is never a sacrificial board above the workpiece, so the final part of the cut doesn't produce tear-out? With a miter, i would think this should be mandatory? Maybe this is the case, but its never depicted this way?

[Ron Knapp]

It may be flat but be sure to check if he bottom is square to the sides. I bought a LV medium(a LV large did not exist) a couple of years ago and it was not square to the sides. Sold it and bought another brand that is square.

I have used it on a shooting board but generally use a LA Jack with the hot dog attachment. I have tried a LN mitre and they work great nut then again so the the LA Jack

[Tony Zaffuto]

I use my large LN shoulder plane occassionally on my shooting board, but ONLY for those times I feel a need to true the board up, and then I need to take a pass or two with my #9 to "shoot" the board in.

Tony Z.

[Mike Cutler]

Will

Here some pic's of the LN-9, LN-164, and an LN Shoulder plane. Sometimes pic's depict more than words. The green board is a shootitong board I made last winter, the glare in the photo is hiding the stop shoulder of the shooting board.

First is the LN-9. You can see that there is a gap in the mouth that extends all the way across. This is to facilitate clearing waste so that the plane doesn't begin to ride on the dust that is created.
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The next plane is the LN-164, and very good plane for shooting board work. notice that while there is more plane sole between the actual blade and the side there is no gap.
To facilitate the removal of dust on a shooting board, that can get between the plane sole and the shooting board. A groove is cut into the shooting board at the edge where the horizontal, and vertical reference edge meet to create a "trough".
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With a shoulder plane the cutting edge extends all the way to the edge of the plane and would continue to perform it's intended function of creating a shoulder on the vertical reference edge of a shooting board.
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Sacrificial board are used with a shooting board, but remember that a shooting board is to "Tune" an edge, and not to establish. The initial edge is established with a saw of some form, so tear out should be minimal.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Will

Here is a link to my article on setting up and using shooting boards. It should answer your questions:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 .html

And I have added a new one, "Advances in a ramped shooting board":

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Advances%20in%20a%20ramped%20shooting%20board.html

In this is a new fence I designed.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Advances%20in%20a%20ramped%20shooting%20board_html _2c426969.jpg

... next to the Michael Connor board (from Craftsman Studio) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Other/Perth%20Wood%20Show%202008/Shootingboardscompared2.jpg

(The boards in the pictures were made for clients).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Will Blick]

Mike, great post, thank you.....

Its interesting how LN left a groove in their iron miter plane....thanks for pointing that out...

I am curious is this a real issue, or just an issue in theory? I would think if the lack of this groove created problems, i.e. waste build up being caught between the plane and the running board, other makers would have provided the same through the years?

Derek, I should have thought to have visited your site first, very very nicely done....and crystal clear use of shooting boards. Thank you again.

So if you had to choose between the LV LA jack, vs. the LA smoother, which would win? I assume you leaned towards the jack as the added mass is useful? BTW, I love the hot dog attachment....

So it appears, with very fine shavings, in the .003" and less range, a sacrificial board is not required to prevent tear out....that is the consensus I am hearing. Of course, on Dereks site, he shows some removal of material, but assuming the shooter is only to fine tune an edge, this is not possible....

BTW, Dereks site shows how to use a shooting board for a beveled edge, vs. a mitered board..... BRILLIANT! Nuff said....

[Peter Quadarella]

I know they are supposed to be pretty easy to make, but for such an essential and useful item you would think LV or LN or someone would be selling them. Derek, the ones you made are beauties; I'm guessing you work by special order?

That old Stanley one looks pretty cool also, it's a shame no one has come out with one similar lately.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, great post, thank you.....

Its interesting how LN left a groove in their iron miter plane....thanks for pointing that out...

I am curious is this a real issue, or just an issue in theory? I would think if the lack of this groove created problems, i.e. waste build up being caught between the plane and the running board, other makers would have provided the same through the years?
Like most things in woodworking, there are multiple ways to solve problems. Most people just put a groove on the plane ramp of their shooting board for the plane swarf to fall into. That way, you can use any plane.

See pixs of my shooting board - a rough made shooting board. The groove is about 1/4" deep and about 1/8" wide. If you blow it out or run a rule (or screwdriver or anything else) through it every now and again to get the swarf out you won't have any problems.

Mike

[Oops, I just noticed that Mike C. said the same thing in his post above. Sorry for the duplication.]

[Mike Henderson]

I know they are supposed to be pretty easy to make, but for such an essential and useful item you would think LV or LN or someone would be selling them. Derek, the ones you made are beauties; I'm guessing you work by special order?

That old Stanley one looks pretty cool also, it's a shame no one has come out with one similar lately.
They are very easy to make. If you're going to do neander woodworking you can certainly make one. And, in my opinion, you should make your own just so you know how it all works.

They need to be functional, not pretty. It's a tool.

Mike

[Will Blick]

Good point Mike..... as I see it, any swarf will come though the top of the blade anyway, away from the workpiece....so your groove is a good insurance policy against any small waste that remains after a swipe....

[Brian Kent]

Mike, you say you are going to make a wooden shooting plane.

My records show that on August 17 you asked about the idea of making a plywood plane.

I think you ought to combine the ideas.

In fact, I dare you to make a plywood shooting plane. Not because plywood would be better or necessary, but because I have never seen anybody do it. And if anyone could turn a hunk of plywood (OK, nice, Baltic Birch plywood) into a functional work of art, it is you.

So I double dare ya!:D

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, you say you are going to make a wooden shooting plane.

My records show that on August 17 you asked about the idea of making a plywood plane.

I think you ought to combine the ideas.

In fact, I dare you to make a plywood shooting plane. Not because plywood would be better or necessary, but because I have never seen anybody do it. And if anyone could turn a hunk of plywood (OK, nice, Baltic Birch plywood) into a functional work of art, it is you.

So I double dare ya!:D
I'm thinking of it. I'll have to see what I decide when I start building it. No matter what I use, I'll use lignum vita for the sole (and on one side for when it's used for shooting).

My thoughts right now are to make the plane so it can be used on a shooting board (on it's side) and upright like a normal plane. So I'd put a razee handle on it for upright use, and maybe a hot dog on the side for when it's used for shooting.

All this is still in the thinking stage - no drawings yet. And too many other projects ahead of this one.

Any suggestions, anyone???

Mike

[Brian Kent]

I'll be away from the computer this week. I look forward to seeing how the idea progresses.

[Mike Cutler]

Its interesting how LN left a groove in their iron miter plane....thanks for pointing that out...

I am curious is this a real issue, or just an issue in theory? I would think if the lack of this groove created problems, i.e. waste build up being caught between the plane and the running board, other makers would have provided the same through the years?.

Will

Lie-Nielsen wasn't the first maker of the Iron Miter, Stanley was the original maker of the #9 Iron Miter that the LN is modeled after.

I'm sure other makers had something that accomplished a similar function, but as Mike Henderson pointed out. It's an expensive plane with very limited application.
I have the #164 from LN and their Low Angle Jack, and to be brutally honest, both of these planes do every bit as good a job as the Miter Plane on a shooting board, plus they perform more tasks at the bench.

I'm absolutely certain that wooden planes were used on shooting boards long before metal planes were developed,and clearing the waste debris from a shooting board just became an automatic part of the process that wasn't even given thought after enough practice at it.

I agree with Mike Henderson, in that a person should be able to make their own shooting boards. ( They can be made more purpose specific if necessary) But then, I'd have little hesitation to buying the one that Derek made.