New forum interest? 18th & 19th cent techniques

[Allan Brown]

How many of you fellow Creekers would have an interest in a forum dedicated to traditional techniques and methods of the 18th & 19th century? I envision it being something along the line of Adam Cherubini's work. I know there are a good number here that utilize handtools almost exclusively, and this would be a good arena to share how those skills are used in cabinetmaking. It doesn't have to be a dogmatic forum...simply one in which information, projects, tools, methods, etc. could be shared.

If there's enough interest, perhaps we could persuade the powers that be to consider creating another niche! ;)
Allan

[Jim Koepke]

I think that would be interesting.

jim

[Mike K Wenzloff]

I feel that this present forum should suffice. It is, after all, a hand tool forum. Which should encompass all manner of period work with hand tools. Whatever the period of one's interest.

The tools change little from the 1700s through, or into, the 1800s with mainly the addition of more specific function tools in the latter period. However, the techniques change little.

Take care, Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I've been interested in how our ancestors worked wood for a long time now. My observation is that there are levels of understanding their working environment.

For example, you could work with wooden planes and other hand tools that are close to what our ancestors used. But will you use the exact same iron and steel that was used back then - for all your tools? Can you even find it?

And what about the support things - glue, sharpening, etc. How far are you willing to go in that area? How far can you go? Are some of the things our ancestors used even available today? Is hide glue the same today as it was back then? Can you get the same finishing materials they used?

What about the shop? Are you willing to work without lights? What are the other things about the shop that makes it "period"?

Finally, (this is really hard) what about the relationship between the employer and employee, and the individual and society? Can you understand how it worked back then and can you duplicate it today? What was expected of a furniture maker back then, both by the employer and society in general. Places like Williamsburg are not "real" because they're just demonstrations. They're not under pressure to produce, and have no fear of business failure.

I'm not sure we'll ever be able to fully understand "How our ancestors build furniture" because we can't avoid modern things creeping in. The best we can do is to see a shadow of what it was really like.

Mike

[steve swantee]

I'm with Jim, I think it would be very interesting to learn more about the techniques used so long ago.

Steve S

[Stephen Shepherd]

'For example, you could work with wooden planes and other hand tools that are close to what our ancestors used. But will you use the exact same iron and steel that was used back then - for all your tools? Can you even find it?'

I use old tools, so yes I can.

'And what about the support things - glue, sharpening, etc. How far are you willing to go in that area? How far can you go? Are some of the things our ancestors used even available today? Is hide glue the same today as it was back then? Can you get the same finishing materials they used?'

The glue is the same, coarse rocks (sharpening stones) change little over the centuries. I also make my own finishes from traditional formulas and to my surprise the gums and resins in those old recipes are available

'What about the shop? Are you willing to work without lights? What are the other things about the shop that makes it "period"?'

In the past craftsmen worked when there was light, but it isn't the 'dark ages', fire had been invented and the ubiquitous grease lamp illuminated many a shop in the past. However cabinetmakers did quite well in their communities, so they could afford candles and whale oil. Haven't used modern lighting for the past 4 years.

'Finally, (this is really hard) what about the relationship between the employer and employee, and the individual and society? Can you understand how it worked back then and can you duplicate it today? What was expected of a furniture maker back then, both by the employer and society in general. Places like Williamsburg are not "real" because they're just demonstrations. They're not under pressure to produce, and have no fear of business failure.'

This one is difficult to get ones hands around. I think it is possible to get an idea of how things worked back then. With recent old price books coming to light and a better understanding of the economic and social conditions of the nineteenth century can give us insight into how things worked back then.

'I'm not sure we'll ever be able to fully understand "How our ancestors build furniture" because we can't avoid modern things creeping in. The best we can do is to see a shadow of what it was really like.'

Perhaps full understanding is not possible, that should not stop us from trying to figure these things out. And perhaps this would be a good idea to have a forum for that discussion.

Mike

I am not sure our lack of understanding should stop us from further understanding, I don't think we should just stop doing what we are doing because we don't have all the facts.

Stephen

[Jack Camillo]

I agree with Mike Wenzloff: This forum suffices. Not because he's Mike Wenzloff or a Presidential Candidate (though both of these attributes are big in my book), but because it was the first thought I had when I saw this post.

[Allan Brown]

I've been interested in how our ancestors worked wood for a long time now. My observation is that there are levels of understanding their working environment.

For example, you could work with wooden planes and other hand tools that are close to what our ancestors used. But will you use the exact same iron and steel that was used back then - for all your tools? Can you even find it?

And what about the support things - glue, sharpening, etc. How far are you willing to go in that area? How far can you go? Are some of the things our ancestors used even available today? Is hide glue the same today as it was back then? Can you get the same finishing materials they used?

What about the shop? Are you willing to work without lights? What are the other things about the shop that makes it "period"?

Finally, (this is really hard) what about the relationship between the employer and employee, and the individual and society? Can you understand how it worked back then and can you duplicate it today? What was expected of a furniture maker back then, both by the employer and society in general. Places like Williamsburg are not "real" because they're just demonstrations. They're not under pressure to produce, and have no fear of business failure.

I'm not sure we'll ever be able to fully understand "How our ancestors build furniture" because we can't avoid modern things creeping in. The best we can do is to see a shadow of what it was really like.

Mike

Mike,
I agree that it would be impossible to completely re-create all the conditions, materials, environment, etc. of our ancestor's shops. But that's not really my point. My belief is that learning about the techniques and methodologies of that era not only instills a greater appreciation of what these craftsmen were able to do, but more importantly, teaches us more about the art, the aesthetic of the period. In other words, it has less to do with whether you're using an authentic period tool -- or replica of same -- and everything to do with how we approach the design, layout, construction, etc. of fine furniture using limited resources, but great skill.

I doubt many of us are going to fell a tree and use a pit saw to reduce it to manageable slabs. And a bandsaw can help with the grunt work of reducing gross material to workable rough stock. From this point, however, I think there's value in understanding (or attempting to) the mindset of an artisan of some 200 years past who sets out to create a secretary without benefit of Sketchup, digital angle meters, PVA adhesives or a shaper/router to create the mouldings, pediments, etc., and achieved his mark with an acceptable level of accuracy and consistency. (This latter point is well worth considering in its own right simply because so many of us are more obsessed with the accuracy of our measurements and gapless dovetails than we are about the aesthetic of what we're building.)

The inability to completely recreate the exact conditions of our historical counterparts need not prevent us from pursuing a greater understanding of just how these folks managed to do what they did. And we can see more than just shadows -- we can implement many of their techniques and methods into our own shops (yes, with electric lights!) to improve the way we work.

Allan

[Mike Henderson]

I wasn't trying to say we should not attempt to understand our woodworking ancestors (or history, for that matter). I was just pointing out what I found when I began trying to understand it. We can work with wooden planes (for example) but that's only a small part of the total experience.

Mike

[Joe Cunningham]

Mike,
I doubt many of us are going to fell a tree and use a pit saw to reduce it to manageable slabs.
Allan

Yeah that would be painful. Glad we don't have to do that anymore.

I think a few threads in Neander haven would suffice. I am certainly interested, but a whole sub-forum seems like a lot, esp considering how low-volume Neander haven is now. If you strip out the 'how do I sharpen a chisel; which hand plane should I buy; I found a woodie, now what' threads, this sub-forum would be pretty sparse as it is. In fact it seems more like a tool forum than a woodworking forum.

[Jack Camillo]

amen, brother

[harry strasil]

Some of us do try by using the tools of the past mostly, but we like the WWer's of the past mostly leave the sawing into boards to the Sawyers.

I for one when actually doing work like was done in the past, do use the tools from the past with their original blades + some repoductions I have fashioned, and I try to use as few screws and cut and handmade nails as I can, preferring to use joints instead. I do use hide glue although the modern non stinking stuff from the bottle, but I do put it into a small double boiler and heat it especially when out demoing 19th century WWing to the public.

Just my $.02 worth, FWIW

[lowell holmes]

I attended the conference at Williamsburg three(?) years ago and it was about 18th century furniture. What I saw was not a demonstration. It was the real thing. The Headley brothers are exceptional. :-)

[Mike Henderson]

I attended the conference at Williamsburg three(?) years ago and it was about 18th century furniture. What I saw was not a demonstration. It was the real thing. The Headley brothers are exceptional. :-)
The "business" of Williamsburg is demonstrating historical things, one of which is furniture making. The furniture itself is just a by product of their primary business.

Of course, that was not the objective (or business purpose) of an 18th Century furniture maker.

Mike

[Allan Brown]

Some of us do try by using the tools of the past mostly, but we like the WWer's of the past mostly leave the sawing into boards to the Sawyers.

I for one when actually doing work like was done in the past, do use the tools from the past with their original blades + some repoductions I have fashioned, and I try to use as few screws and cut and handmade nails as I can, preferring to use joints instead. I do use hide glue although the modern non stinking stuff from the bottle, but I do put it into a small double boiler and heat it especially when out demoing 19th century WWing to the public.

Just my $.02 worth, FWIW

Harry,
Your posts are some of the ones I really look forward to for precisely that reason.

[lowell holmes]

In the spirit of friendly discussion:

Mack Headley was the master woodworker and I agree that his business is selling demonstrations. That said, he does build furniture with 18th century tools as well as train apprentices. His apprentice at that time displayed remarkable skills and knowledge.
Mack's brother, I think his name is Jeff is not in the business of demonstrations. He and his family are in the business of building 18th century style furniture. They have a family business nearby. I truly think one of their primary objectives is preserving the skills of the 18th century wood worker.

[Eric Hartunian]

This type of forum already exists on the SAPFM forum, and many on this board post on that one as well. I will say, that sometimes days go by before a post is made over there. As much as I like that forum, it is so narrowly defined that many people probably don't feel they have anything to contribute, or very seldom at best. Neander-woodworking is already a bit of a niche. To make a niche within a niche may leave us wanting.

Just my opinion,

Eric

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Unless you want to ficus on building maintaining and running a waterwheel powered shop ~ ~ ~ ~
The phrase "eander" pretty much covers it.

[Fred Strumpf]

I am interested. PM and we may be able to get something going.

Fred

[harry strasil]

FWIW,

What would be really nice is for someone with the editing capabilities to start a Monthly of Bimonthly sort of newsletter with some featured tools and articles submitted by interested subscribers. A modest fee could be collected from those interested and it could be sent out by email to the subscribers.

I would be happy to make up articles with pictures and such about the techniques I use and have learned from old technical manuals and such that I have collected, I also have a few old catalogues from the real late 1800's that have some interesting pictures and prices.

I was the newsletter editor for the Nebraska and National Blacksmiths, Weldors, and Machinists Associations for several years and I know how frustrating it is trying to get people to contribute material.

I would be willing to give it a try if no one else is willing, but I am a bit computer illiterate. And at the moment am in the middle of my Nubench project and reorganizing and rearranging my basement shop.

Respectfully

Jr. Strasil.

[Steve Thomas]

I Think that this forum is just great as it is...
A good example of creating more and more sub-forums can be seen on the wood working Australia's forum.... We have 16 Sub Forums and over 100 Sub -Sub - Forums...
Bottom line is I don't have time to look in on other sections like cooking and sports...
Keep the forum solid and well grounded. this way more people veiw each and every thread and are able to keep up with the latest posts.

Steve Thomas

[Greg Stanford]

"What would be really nice is for someone with the editing capabilities to start a Monthly of Bimonthly sort of newsletter with some featured tools and articles submitted by interested subscribers. A modest fee could be collected from those interested and it could be sent out by email to the subscribers."

I would be really interested in something like this if it could get started. I'm afraid my skills are still so limited that I would not be contributing articles but I would certianly be willing to pay a subscription. I've learned & continue to learn so much from you guys & I appreciate the willingness to share your knowledge.

g

[Steve Schoene]

That's the SAPFM journal again.

[Chuck Nickerson]

One reason for a separate forum: it might cut down on the posts by people who feel it's necessary to say how silly the idea of period work is.

A newsletter is a great idea. Posts and blogs contain a lot of information, but are hard to leaf through. The content is also subject to the owner's continued committment and presence. If Stephen Sheperd ever stops maintaining his site, a lot of valuable information will be lost. The SAPFM journal sets a very high standard, and as a result, much valuable information will never appear in it.

[Peter Quadarella]

Are there people who say period work is silly on this forum? I wouldn't think that would be a common occurrence. Most of the posts on this forum are very encouraging; one of the reasons I like it so much :).

[Allan Brown]

Thanks to all of you who responded to this thread. I really appreciate Harry's thoughts on how to proceed. I know our range of talents runs from neophyte to experienced, but that's the whole point, isn't it? This could be an excellent information exchange for period techniques, methods, tools, etc.

For those of you who expressed interest, I will be sending a PM in order for you to respond with your email address. I'll collect what I have and send something out to everyone. That at least gets us all together.

For any of you other fence-sitters, feel free to PM me with your email address and I'll be glad to include you as well!
Allan

[Dave Anderson NH]

As a note, if you live in NH and are either a member of the Guild of NH Woodworkers or want to be, we are starting a hand tools special interest group in October. It will focus on hand tools use, techniques, choosing and rehabing tools, and other topics of interest to our members. One of our members, Garrett Hack, will be giving a presentation at our annual meeting in October and he's done many other demos for us over the years.

[Allan Brown]

As a note, if you live in NH and are either a member of the Guild of NH Woodworkers or want to be, we are starting a hand tools special interest group in October. It will focus on hand tools use, techniques, choosing and rehabing tools, and other topics of interest to our members. One of our members, Garrett Hack, will be giving a presentation at our annual meeting in October and he's done many other demos for us over the years.

Thanks for the info, Dave. Just wished I lived closer to all the cool events you guys have access to! Perhaps you can share some specifics about your group's activities -- videos, articles, etc.
Allan

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hi Allan, Our guild is an umbrella organization of over 500 members which includes turners, carvers, furniture folks, luthiers, and almost anything else you can name. Our website is currently quite primitive and the replacement is still in beta testing and not yet available to the public. Our 36-40 page full color newletter is available on our current website in pdf format with the exception of the latest 3 issues (www.gnhw.org (http://www.gnhw.org)). We already have a period furniture special interest group which meets 5 times per year and many of its members are heavy hand tool users. We do videotape regular guild meetings and most of the presentations from the various symposia we hold at least every other year. These are not professional quality videos however though they are inexpensive.

When I first joined our guild about 12-13 years ago, I was relatively unskilled and not much of a hand tool user at all. Most of the skills and training came from our guild and its members at little to no cost except for my time. Guilds or clubs are to my mind the cheapest and best means for the average person to become both educated and skilled. Our whole credo can be summed up in the statement that, "All of us have something to teach and something to learn."

[Allan Brown]

Hi Allan, Our guild is an umbrella organization of over 500 members which includes turners, carvers, furniture folks, luthiers, and almost anything else you can name. Our website is currently quite primitive and the replacement is still in beta testing and not yet available to the public. Our 36-40 page full color newletter is available on our current website in pdf format with the exception of the latest 3 issues (www.gnhw.org (http://www.gnhw.org)). We already have a period furniture special interest group which meets 5 times per year and many of its members are heavy hand tool users. We do videotape regular guild meetings and most of the presentations from the various symposia we hold at least every other year. These are not professional quality videos however though they are inexpensive.

When I first joined our guild about 12-13 years ago, I was relatively unskilled and not much of a hand tool user at all. Most of the skills and training came from our guild and its members at little to no cost except for my time. Guilds or clubs are to my mind the cheapest and best means for the average person to become both educated and skilled. Our whole credo can be summed up in the statement that, "All of us have something to teach and something to learn."

Man oh man! I just opened one of the newsletter files and was blown away by the content! These will definitely provide me with a great resource for some time to come! Thanks so much for sharing...will be in touch to learn more!
Allan