A Waterstone Story

[Mike Henderson]

Months ago I dropped my Shapton 1000 grit stone on concrete and it broke in half. I dried it and glued it back together with epoxy and it worked fine.

Today, however, while I was using it, it came apart on the glue line.

I'm cheap and didn't want to buy a new stone so I started thinking about what I could glue the Shapton to to give it enough strength that I could still use it. One thought was a piece of glass, but I would prefer to use something I already have.

I have a Norton 1000 stone that I've used a good deal - it's getting thin - so I decided to glue the two stones together. This would give me a 1000 surface on each side, just two technologies.

So that's what I did. You can see the result in the picture. I flattened each side and it works fine. But I'll give up and buy a new Shapton if this one breaks on me.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Good one Mike!

Just for reference, I have epoxied all my Professional series Shaptons (1000/5000/8000/12000) to 5mm glass. Having compared two 8000 side-by-side for about a year, one with glass and the other standard, I find the glass holds the stone flatter between flattenings.

My procedure is to allow the stones to dry "as is" after they are used for the day (i.e. no flattening) because they always need flattening anyway at the start of the sharpening session. The glassed version is flatter in the morning when time comes to flatten them (if all this makes sense).

The other reason for the glass was that I was concerned that the stones might become fragile as they became thinner - not that they are thin at this time.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Shaptonwithglass2.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Eddie Darby]

Quick run to the patent office!

Good tips!!! Thanks!:)

[Jay Jolliffe]

Derek....Can you see or feel any difference when you sharpen to the 12000 stone instead of stopping at the 8000. The highest I have is 8000 & it makes my chisels mirror smooth & sharp enough to shave. So going to the 12000 make that much difference ?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jay

Yes, the 12000 (some call it a 15000) is noticably smoother (=sharper). I like this stone. I am now going to see if I can go to it directly from the 5000 and by-pass the 8000.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks for the info, Derek. How did you get the glass for the stones? Did you go to a commercial place and have them cut it to size for you? Or did you do something yourself?

And how thick is the glass you chose?

Thanks, Mike

[Mike Keers]

Glad to see another frugal sawdust sucker who at least makes the effort to make do--some guys would just toss a broken stone and buy another. I dropped a very fine 'found' stone of unknown grit or material and it broke in half too. Mine is more like a chunk of marble, some kind of polished black stone with veins of lighter color, an Arkansas or other natural type? It's not a manufactured water stone anyway. I thought of epoxy but tried Gorilla Glue, since the stone was damp from perpetual soaking. It worked fine, and after flattening it's still used for the final polish. I didn't think of gluing it to another stone or glass...interesting idea!

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

The 8000 in the picture was the one I did first. The glass is 3mm thick. I recently added glass to all the other stones. These are 5mm thick.

The was cut from scraps at my local glass merchant. He charged me $10 for 4 pieces that measured 70mm x 210mm (from memory). I thought this very reasonable, especially since he interrupted his work to cut the pieces for me.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Franics]

You guys do realise Shapton actually make stones with float glass backing eh? They are cheaper too!

www.shaptonstones.com

[Mike Henderson]

You guys do realise Shapton actually make stones with float glass backing eh? They are cheaper too!

www.shaptonstones.com (http://www.shaptonstones.com)
Yes, but they are newer than when I bought my Shapton stones. What I'm trying to do is save the stone I have.

A friend of mine bought the whole set of glass backed Shaptons. His comment was that the stones were reasonably priced but they get you on the diamond flattening plate. I've not gone and looked at the prices of any of the new Shapton stuff so I can't vouch for his comment.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tony

There are two series of Shaptons sold, the Glass and the Professional versions. Both are current models. Slightly different formulations. Some prefer one over the other.

There is speculation that the Glass versins were introduced to reduce the price and also because of movement (as I reported - I am not sure if this is a general issue, and I have not thought to check it out whether present in my other types of waterstones) in the Pro versions.

The Pros are twice as thick for just a little more money. Better value for money? Anyway, these are the ones that Mike and I have modified.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

I don't have any preference, but I will comment that you may get as much life out of the glass Shaptons as out of the non-glass. The reason is that you can't use the non-glass to nothing. Long before it gets really thin it'll probably break and be discarded. Unless you do something like Derek did.

And as Derek has commented, you may get a flatter stone with the glass (I have no experience on this).

But that Shapton flattening plate is a killer. I checked at LN and it's $289. If you must use that, and can't use a DMT plate, it'll make those glass stones pretty expensive.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

Glad to see another frugal sawdust sucker who at least makes the effort to make do--some guys would just toss a broken stone and buy another.

Are you kidding?

These are great pieces for making slip stones and pocket stones.

Can't make lemon aide without lemons.

jim

[Derek Cohen]

Mike

I must say that the Shapton diamond plate is a killer in performance as well.

A few weeks ago I was demonstrating handtools for LN at the Perth Wood Show (this was like letting me loose in Aladin's Cave!). Of course they had the Shapton diamond plate there as well. I compared it against the 10" DMT Extra Coarse (Duostone) I was using. It blew the DMT away in terms of speed to flatten and re-flatten a stone (I was using both LN's glass stones and my pro stones).

If you think that the Shapton Diamond Lapping Stone is expensive, take a look at theprice of their Diamond Reference Lapping Stone, which is two-sided (one for blade backs and the other for stones - ala the Extra Coarse/Coarse DMT). The certfied flatter flattness of the Shapton is what is said to increase the speed of sharpeneing - better, quicker referencing of a face or area.

Harrison Stanley has a video on the website about this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Franics]

Thanks guys,

I suppose you are both correct that it could be better value for money paying a little extra for the pro series and then laminating the backs with glass to extend their life (just like the glasstone series). However, while many folks use the pro series for A2 tool steel blades and chisels, Lie-Nielsen claim the Glasstones were specially formulated for use with their A2.

Perception for money is an interesting thing. Most people would consider the following a basic kit of sharpening gear; a 1000 grit, 4000 grit and also 8000 grit waterstones. (Many also like a finer stone). You also need a diamond stone to flatten the waterstones and another diamond plate to flatten the backs of blades or remove nicks from the cutting edge.

So for the Glasstone series in 1K, 4K and 8K, the diamond on glass lapping plate, a stone holder (because these are so thin!), and also a DMT C/XC as a roughing tool - thats a total of $667.80.

For the Pro series stones in 1K, 5K and 8K, plus the diamond reference lapping plate (which is a diamond waterstone lapping plate, stone holder and tool roughing diamond plate combined) the total would be $725.97 for what is essentially twice the stone life if properly maintained.

So? Which is better value?

Best,

Tony

[Tony Franics]

"Hi Jay

Yes, the 12000 (some call it a 15000) is noticably smoother (=sharper). I like this stone. I am now going to see if I can go to it directly from the 5000 and by-pass the 8000.

Regards from Perth

Derek "

Derek,

On the Shapton website, there is a picture link that shows Frank Klausz using the 1000, 5000 and 15,000 combination. I guess you can skip the 8000 just like many folks skip the 5000 (or 4000) between 1 and 8K.

Best,

Tony Francis

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tony

Which is better value?

Here is a link to my "10 cent sharpening system". It works as well as anything. Really.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/The%2010%20Cent%20Sharpening%20System.html

The question is "why use Shaptons when the above is as effective?" I suppose that we may just as well ask why we use one plane instead of another, etc. Sometimes it is not that they work well, but how we feel about making it work.

If I did this for a living I doubt that I would spend much on fancy stones or equipment. I'd make do as it is just an overhead expense. But it is a hobby for me and I enjoy experimenting as well as building. So value for money is relative.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sam Babbage]

I jump from a 4k Glassstone to a 12/15k professional without any dramas.

[Tony Franics]

Hi Derek,

Thanks for your responce. I find it very fascinating how many variations there is on one supposedly simple theme (zero radius).

For me, Since I already had the DMT from my norton days, and because most of my tools are A2, I went for the Glasstones shortly after they were released.
Why would a professional instrument maker spend such a huge chunk of money on sharpening gear? Because I want perfectly sharp tools and a easy to use system, so I can get super sharp and back to the bench in a minimal amount of time.
The time saving of this system has more than paid for the stones, (which by the way, are down to about 0.5mm of stone left on the glass backing!).

I will need to replace them before the year is out, and probably with the glasstones again. Highly reccomended! But have not tried the pro series.

Best,

Tony

[Wilbur Pan]

So for the Glasstone series in 1K, 4K and 8K, the diamond on glass lapping plate, a stone holder (because these are so thin!), and also a DMT C/XC as a roughing tool - thats a total of $667.80.

For the Pro series stones in 1K, 5K and 8K, plus the diamond reference lapping plate (which is a diamond waterstone lapping plate, stone holder and tool roughing diamond plate combined) the total would be $725.97 for what is essentially twice the stone life if properly maintained.

So? Which is better value?


Getting the Pro series with the Shapton compact lapping plate, which is $130 or so, and the powders used with it, which brings your total cost to about $410.

You also don't need a stone holder. Any flat board with a stop will do. Disclaimer: my stone holder is a lot dirtier now than when this picture was taken. ;)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2173/2212962869_397978f95b.jpg

[Jeff Wittrock]

Just wondering if there is any advantage in using glass over a 1/4" thick granite tile as a backing material? I happen to have scrap granite tile laying around and a tile saw, so I was thinking of laminating a couple layers of tile to make a 1/2 backer.

Is glass typically flatter, or do you have to buy "float" glass? I imagine it depends a lot on the particular tile. I'm not sure just how flat granite tiles typically are when polished for floor use.

-Jeff

[Derek Cohen]

Jeff

I assume you are referring to laminating the tile to a Shapton?

It depends on the thickness of your stone. A 1/4" tile may make the combination too thick to fit in the case.

I don't think it makes any difference whether it is granite or glass. You just want something stiff and waterproof. I stuck mine on with two-pack epoxy - just a very thin layer - so even the flatness factor is not critical.

Regards from Perth

Derek