New Toys Arrived Today

[Brent Smith]

I received my set of Veritas Skewed Rabbet Planes today. I tried them out right away! They are, as expected, beautifully made. The blades were ready to go out of the box. I honed them a bit after making some test cuts, but it didn't add appreciatively to their performance. The fence rides on two bars and is locked down with what I can only describe as router collets. It took as much sideways pressure as I applied with no movement at all. It was also at a perfect ninety to the sole of the plane through out it's movement. The nicker is another neat trick. It is easily adjustable to any depth or lifted out of the way with a simple turn of a screw.

The only thing I would do different would be a slightly bigger rear handle, but considering that it's not a smoother that I'll be using for long periods of time I think I can forgive this. All in all a very good addition to my shop.

[Gary Herrmann]

Ahem. There is no proof this ever happened.

[Brent Smith]

Ahem. There is no proof this ever happened.

Guilty as charged LOL....................no camera!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mark Stutz]

Brent,
We'll take your word for it...for a while:D I'm anxious to see these in person. My only complaint with LV planes is that the totes just do not feel comfortable in my hand. I am really hoping these are different.

Mark

[James Mittlefehldt]

Brent,
We'll take your word for it...for a while:D I'm anxious to see these in person. My only complaint with LV planes is that the totes just do not feel comfortable in my hand. I am really hoping these are different.

Mark

I could be wrong, it happens, but I believe this is the first plane that ALF actually liked the tote on from Lee Valley.

[Rob Lee]

I could be wrong, it happens, but I believe this is the first plane that ALF actually liked the tote on from Lee Valley.

Nope....

It was either the side rabbet, or the the small scraping plane due January....:D

Cheers -

Rob

[Gary Herrmann]

Nope....

It was either the side rabbet, or the the small scraping plane due January....:D

Cheers -

Rob

Rob, are there plans in the works for a dado plane?

[Rob Lee]

Rob, are there plans in the works for a dado plane?

Hi Gary -

Yes there is... but still preliminary...

Cheers -

Rob

[James Mittlefehldt]

Hi Gary -

Yes there is... but still preliminary...

Cheers -

Rob

MY head is spinning with all these new developments. Wondering if as we venture further and further down this road to tooling esoterica, does the development costs of each tool go down somewhat as you may have walked the path beforeand are able to build on past products?

If that makes sense maybe you could use a real world example and discuss the new premium plane in that context coming out............. when exactly?

[Rob Lee]

MY head is spinning with all these new developments. Wondering if as we venture further and further down this road to tooling esoterica, does the development costs of each tool go down somewhat as you may have walked the path beforeand are able to build on past products?

If that makes sense maybe you could use a real world example and discuss the new premium plane in that context coming out............. when exactly?

Hi James -

Good question...

"First of family" products are really the most time and capital intensive. They may involve new materials, new processes, or lots of research. We actually started design on the skews years ago - but proved out a lot of the fence design on the much more recent plow plane. (skews are project number 638, plow plane is project number 747 - 100 product/projects in between!).

Using the premium line as an example - we have to virtually design the entire range before we commit the first one to tooling. We need to have the feature set nailed, know the tolerances we want (and can hold), and develop the design vocubulary for the line. All of this has to be transferrable, and scaleable.

The premium line will have new materials, and new processes for us ... some processes we've worked out on other tools...

I can't (won't) definitively give a date for the premium line. I will tell you parts of it are in production now - and we're still working through a tricky finishing process "challenge". Be glad to discuss what it was after release though....:) . Right now, it is still probable that it will be released before Christmas.

Other projects wait years for just the right timing. Today - we pulled the trigger on our dovetail saw... the concept for that has been hanging around for a year or two - and it's taken a full year of working with the materials and processes to get that one right... it clicked last week. It may not have twin handles... but it will sure generate a ton of reaction!:eek::D

Timing and introduction of new product has to be balanced as well. We can't sink infinite amounts into tooling, without generating cash flow to keep going. We watch the market, and juggle priorities to maintain a good (most of the time) balance. Not to mention giving you guys a chance to refill your pockets...

Cheers -

Rob
(off to Koln to QC some Kolsch....:D)

[Richard Niemiec]

<snip> We watch the market, and juggle priorities to maintain a good (most of the time) balance. Not to mention giving you guys a chance to refill your pockets...

Cheers -

Rob
(off to Koln to QC some Kolsch....:D)

Rob, glad to see you are innovating, keep up the good work.

As to pocket refills, I just pulled the trigger on the pair of skews and the plow (along with assorted other do-dads) and will have to pay a "matching" estrogen based purchase spend (to keep my bride happy), so the premium line introduction late 4th quarter is about right for the refill........

RN
(Very satisfied customer)

[Mark Stutz]

Thanks, Rob! Seems to me that Berea would be a GREAT place to preview some of those!:D;)

Mark

[Will Blick]

OK, I must be out of the loop....

what is "premium line"

Sheeesh, I think all LV tools are Premium!

Or maybe I should not ask?

No, please tell me....

[Alan DuBoff]

Odd that the Google Ads are displaying Ebay Auctions for vintage Stanley hand planes in this thread...

Odd since it's a violation to post links to Ebay auctions on SMC, I had thought...:D

[Rob Lee]

OK, I must be out of the loop....

what is "premium line"

Sheeesh, I think all LV tools are Premium!

Or maybe I should not ask?

No, please tell me....

Hi Will -

When we design products, we generally have a pretty good idea of the price/performance point we want to hit - and it's a constraint for our designers (including how much time can be spent refining the aesthetics).

I've said before that our bevel-down bench planes are the "East German swimmers in the woodworking pool" (that reference is just a tad dated now...) - strong, functional, but perhaps just a tad utilitarian in the looks department....:rolleyes::D

So, for the premium line, there were no cost or material constraints at all - just pure function and design...

Once we'd worked out the concepts, we had to drag the costs (somehow) back down to a reasonable (or at least justifiable) level...

As well - we've chimped down on some tolerances, should be about half that on our current planes.... (which are already more than sufficient)...

You should be able to see the results soon...:D

Cheers -

Rob

[Will Blick]

Thanks Rob, now I get it....you are changing your BD designs....

What about the BU designs? Or were they already designed "premium?

BTW, I really commend owners like yourself who contribute to these forums....not sure why all owners have not caught on to this...it sure creates customer loyalty seeing a big gun like yourself hang with us hobbiest :-) And I have a boat load of your products to prove it :-)

Rob, another question is.... I am not trying to provoke a USA price increase....but I have been impressed with your ability to hold pricing considering all the extreme changes in our two currencies. Do you offset this risk by dabbling in currency futures? Or have you just let your margins fall, while you wait to see if the current exchanges remain permanent? Even when companies play with currency futures, it only covers short term fluctuations.....sooner or later, the reality of unfavorable currency changes will be reflected in retail pricing. Your thoughts? Is USA a big part of your business or does Canada represent a bulk of your sales? I assume your mail order business to USA much be huge considering the huge differences in population.

[Rob Lee]

Thanks Rob, now I get it....you are changing your BD designs....

What about the BU designs? Or were they already designed "premium?

BTW, I really commend owners like yourself who contribute to these forums....not sure why all owners have not caught on to this...it sure creates customer loyalty seeing a big gun like yourself hang with us hobbiest :-) And I have a boat load of your products to prove it :-)

Rob, another question is.... I am not trying to provoke a USA price increase....but I have been impressed with your ability to hold pricing considering all the extreme changes in our two currencies. Do you offset this risk by dabbling in currency futures? Or have you just let your margins fall, while you wait to see if the current exchanges remain permanent? Even when companies play with currency futures, it only covers short term fluctuations.....sooner or later, the reality of unfavorable currency changes will be reflected in retail pricing. Your thoughts? Is USA a big part of your business or does Canada represent a bulk of your sales? I assume your mail order business to USA much be huge considering the huge differences in population.


Hi Will -

Didn't *exactly* say we were working on the BD planes... just using them as an example...:rolleyes:

Prices - another good question, and one that's been hammering us for four years... overall - we've been dropping prices in Canada for four years (which has the effect of dropping our revenue!), while the USD has been weakening (which again drops our US revenue, when converted to CAD). Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place. In Canada, we actually dropped prices twice last year - we just didn't tell anyone.

Hedging - yes, we do that sometimes, but only when we know we're going to require a substantial outlay, and we know the timing. Most of our "hedging" is just carrying very large inventories. On the gardening side - the season is so short, you really only have one chance to buy... so our costs stay pretty much fixed. In the mail-order business, inventory turns are less important than avoiding back-orders. Our internal costs for shipping a back-order are quite large (8-12 bucks) - and there's no additional revenue coming from that activity...

In the USA, there is going to be a buch of increases this year - primarily from Asia. You see, many firms have been holding their prices as the USD weakens, as they do not normally pass on small increases. Many firms rely on new products for profitability, and will let the margins on the "back-list" of items erode. That is - until they start to lose money - then they'll act to restore their margins - often whacking in a 15-40% increase. Now that's for a good that doesn't have material as a high proportion of cost - those companies will pass on increases. For example, our drawer slide supplier increased prices 3 times in the last 12 months... 10%, 15%, and 15%. On the other hand, a Japanese supplier of rules, where the prices have been stable for 5 years, just put his prices up 50%-120%. There are a number of other reasons (like the cancellation of export tax rebates from China) - but overall, lots of price increases are starting to flow.

It's a complex situation, and it's the relative volatility of currencies and commodities that make things challenging - especially when you have a printed catalog - you just can't change pricing that quickly. That's without even considering transportation - which can represent anwhere from 2-20% of a product landed cost...

Long answer - but was waiting for the primer to dry on some windows...time fro a second coat.....:p

Cheers -

Rob

[Will Blick]

> Most of our "hedging" is just carrying very large inventories.


Yep, but thats on the buy side.... on the revenue side, you can get walloped on changing currencies....albeit, up to the last few years, that has not been the case, at least between USA and CAN. Double edge sword.... yikes.... But I assume for non USA markets, you just price everything in CAN dollars.


Good explanation on how firms handle the fluctuating dollar.... in your case, combined with a printed catalog with pricing.... then, holding large qnty of inventories to prevent back orders, (more costly than I thought) it has become a high risk game. Obviously, you are managing it very well, as you seem to always have everything in stock and have kept prices at bay.... (on a relative basis) Kudos for a job well done...


I find it interesting that a company like Stanley has re-entered the fine hand tool market....basically taking the best of what you and LN has worked so hard to develop. This was stated in their article linked above. We always think of the Asians knocking things off. There seems no end to the competitive nature of the business world. Many consumers love more competition, and sometimes this is required to assure quality and fair pricing in certain markets. OTOH, too much competition just creates a bunch of makers that loose money because they all beat-up each other on price, and then, quality suffers, new innovation stalls, till some close up shop. It's a cycle that will never end. My guess is, the high-end hand plane market is not that big (say planes in the $150+ category).... do you have any estimates? I would be amazed if the market size was $10M world-wide?



Thanks for taking the time to answer, now go put that 2nd coat on!!!

[Rob Lee]

> Most of our "hedging" is just carrying very large inventories.


Yep, but thats on the buy side.... on the revenue side, you can get walloped on changing currencies....albeit, up to the last few years, that has not been the case, at least between USA and CAN. Double edge sword.... yikes.... But I assume for non USA markets, you just price everything in CAN dollars.


Good explanation on how firms handle the fluctuating dollar.... in your case, combined with a printed catalog with pricing.... then, holding large qnty of inventories to prevent back orders, (more costly than I thought) it has become a high risk game. Obviously, you are managing it very well, as you seem to always have everything in stock and have kept prices at bay.... (on a relative basis) Kudos for a job well done...


I find it interesting that a company like Stanley has re-entered the fine hand tool market....basically taking the best of what you and LN has worked so hard to develop. This was stated in their article linked above. We always think of the Asians knocking things off. There seems no end to the competitive nature of the business world. Many consumers love more competition, and sometimes this is required to assure quality and fair pricing in certain markets. OTOH, too much competition just creates a bunch of makers that loose money because they all beat-up each other on price, and then, quality suffers, new innovation stalls, till some close up shop. It's a cycle that will never end. My guess is, the high-end hand plane market is not that big (say planes in the $150+ category).... do you have any estimates? I would be amazed if the market size was $10M world-wide?



Thanks for taking the time to answer, now go put that 2nd coat on!!!
Hi Will -

Yes, for export sales we now quote in CAD. We had been using a couple of currencies (predominantly the USD), but the margins on wholesale pricing just can't accomodate the currency fluctuation we now see regularly.

Some Asian countries get a bad rap, as it's really the western businesses that are driving what they produce. Many of the Asian "copies" you see, have been solicited by someone on this side of the Pacific. Then too - the folks that copy are "rewarded" with sales - after all, someone here is buying those copies. We also have to remember that North America only represents one market...the copies go many other places.

I'm just like everyone else wrt what Stanley's doing... haven't seen anything but the announcement Chris S posted. Truthfully - whatever they do is virtually of no concern here. We've always done our own thing - and will continue to do so. In the hand tool arena - I'll flatly state that Veritas has out-innovated Stanley by a wide margin over the past 20 years. I'll also say that we're "right-sized" to operate in this space, and are very closely connected to our customer base. Stanley does a lot of things really well - but this just doesn't fit their structure, or culture. I've said before - they should be taking the volume "good" quality market position, and pre-empting the Chinese/Indian emerging market position... that's where the real money is in the first place.

High-end plane market - well, it's certainly higher than 10M world-wide .... probably at least 100M-250M. But - that's split over many makers, and much of the business just isn't up for grabs - it's spread over too many models, and too many makers... many of whom do custom work. And when you get to that level - you want to know you talk to the people making the product.... you're buying a story, or philosophy, as much as a product.

Anyhow, all should become clear with the passage of just a bit more time....

Cheers -

Rob

[Ken Werner]

Rob -

As a very satisfied LV customer / user, I just want to thank you for being there and doing what you do. Your company and your products should be an example to manufacturers and sellers of everything for quality, value and customer service. Many kudos to you and your entire team.

Ken

[Will Blick]

>I'll flatly state that Veritas has out-innovated Stanley by a wide margin over the past 20 years. I'll also say that we're "right-sized" to operate in this space, and are very closely connected to our customer base.


Well said Rob.... I agree 100%..... I just found it ironic that Stanley jumped in after you have innovated the high end plane market....

And yes, you are right, its not the Asians knocking off product, its mostly the USA, who just use Asian makers. I should have been more clear.

As for the high end plane market size, WOW, you rocked me with that one.... I had no idea it would be that big.... I figured for every 100 hand planes sold, 98 were priced under $50....which left little at the top. This explains why Stanley jumped in, as they are big enough to try to capitalize on a piece of this pie...

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

Ken - thanks for the kind comments, we have a lot of fun, and we have a good customer base that enables us to do what we do.

Will - my guess is really just that - a guess - I suspect it's much closer to the 100M end. Don't forget there are lots of makers out there that are easy to lose track of - like all of the Japanese makers, or ECE in wood planes. The market may seem large - but it's not a question of pure competition.... many of the players have built their own niche in the market (or even created a segment), and most of that just won't switch at the drop of a hat...

Cheers -

Rob

[Will Blick]

Rob, fully agreed, its a segmented market..... not like bincoulars, or autos, where we all seem to be moved by the same issues.... hand planes as you suggest has lots of personal issues, such as wood vs. metal, BU / BD, hand feel, weight, who makes it, collect-ability factor, etc. Regardless, your market cap still knock me over :-)

BTW, is Veritas just a name brand which is owned by LV? I assume you are all one?

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

BTW, is Veritas just a name brand which is owned by LV? I assume you are all one?


Hi Will -

No - Veritas Tools Canada, Veritas Tools USA, and Lee Valley Tools Ltd. are all separate companies - all owned by a holding company (though they do share a common President :D) .

It's actually Lee Valley that designs product though, ... the R&D staff are all on the LV payroll...

Cheers -

Rob