New shop lighting questions

[Dave Zeigler]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here, so I'll start with a quick introduction. Then on to the questions.

I'm a novice woodworker and I'm putting together my first shop. That is if you don't include my driveway.

I built (with help from friends and family) a garage with a second story for my shop. I originally wasn't planning on finishing the shop interior, but it has become apparent to me that I need to. Here are some pictures from about 6 months into the construction. These were taken about a year and a half ago:
http://home.stny.rr.com/dzeigler/images/shop%20front.jpg

http://home.stny.rr.com/dzeigler/images/shop%20rear.jpg

I am an avid DIY'er and I took on all aspects of the building, with the exception of the concrete foundation and floor and excavation. I began this project with a HUGE stack of books from the library and read every one from cover to cover. I designed and drew up the plans on my computer, which took about 6 weeks part time. The building exterior is complete and I've started the interior.

The shop wiring is nearly complete, except for the lighting. Before I hang my insulation and OSB, I thought I'd better get my lighting planned out - which brought me (again) to this forum for some lurking around.

I downloaded the "Lighting for the Workshop" by Jack Lindsey article from FWW and read it. I would base my plan entirely off that article except for a couple of "issues."

Issue #1, I already have the tubes I'll be using.
I work in a large office area. My company recently began "upgrading" the lighting in my area from 32 watt T8 bulbs to 24 watts. This change is being made in the interest of energy savings - not due to bulb failure. I struck up a conversation with the facilities guy about what was going on and the next thing I knew, I became the owner of 60 four foot 32 watt t8 bulbs to light my shop with. I guess this would be a gloat. They were going to recycle them so they thought it was great that someone could use them until they quit working. Here is a pic of the bulb:

http://home.stny.rr.com/dzeigler/images/T8.jpg

The other issue is that these tubes came from an area that doesn't have as many fixtures per sq. ft. as recommended by Mr. Lindsey. These bulbs came from an area with about an 11' to 12' high ceiling. There are 3 bulbs per fixture and each fixture covers an 64 sq. ft. area (8x8). The fixtures have are recessed into a drop ceiling and have a mirror finish reflector. They also have a diffuser grid that is also mirror finish. I find this lighting to be adequate for working at night, and I'm 46 years old.

My shop is 28x40, has 8' walls with a vaulted ceiling by virtue of scissors trusses. The ceiling has a 3/12 pitch giving it around 11' 9" height at the center.

Mr. Lindsey would have me install somewhere around 36 fixtures (for my T8 four footers) in my shop. Using my office as a guide, I end up with 26 fixtures. That is a pretty big difference! I understand that I'm using different fixtures than in my office, but I'm guessing that the output will be similar - although the office fixtures are more directed than the planned shop lights. My lighting will be strip fixtures of commercial grade mounted to an OSB ceiling that is painted flat white. I'm also planning on putting OSB on the walls and painting them white, with a satin or semi-gloss sheen.

So far, I've found the online woodworking community to be very friendly and helpful so I'm putting up my plans in the hope that I can get useful feedback that would prevent me from making a time consuming and/or expensive mistake.

I bought a fixture so I could get a look at it. It seems pretty good. Here is the ballast:
http://home.stny.rr.com/dzeigler/images/ballast.jpg

Since I've already got 4 images in this post, I'll continue this in another post.

Continued....

Dave Zeigler

[Dave Zeigler]

My plan is to run four rows of light fixtures parallel to the roof ridge. Each row will have seven fixtures, six feet on center. There are two locations where I won't be installing a fixture since they will be over a planned lumber storage area.

I am planning six single pole switches located near the entry door. The switches will be supplied by two 15A circuits. There will be two sets of three gang boxes, one above the other on the wall. Each box will be supplied with a 14/2 romex feed from the breakers. EMT conduit will come out of the boxes and a single conduit run of 1/2" size will house six hot conductors, two neutral conductors and a ground. All conductors will be 14 AWG and be rated at least 90 deg. C.

The conduit will run to four junction boxes which will be located directly over a fixture for each row of fixtures.

The fixtures will be tied together with 1/2" EMT to route the appropriate conductors.

http://home.stny.rr.com/dzeigler/images/Lighting.jpg

My apologies to those who may be colorblind. Each color represents a different light switch. There are three zones and each zone is broken into two circuits. Two switches will control light in each zone. Most of my time will be spent in the center of the building, so that area gets the "extra" fixtures. Note that the fixtures next to the left and right walls will be brought in towards the center however much is required, around 4.5 inches. The upper right area is where the planned lumber storage is.

Ok, that's it for now. Thanks in advance for your constructive comments. Questions are welcome.

Regards,
Dave Zeigler

[Larry Browning]

Others may disagree with me but I don't quite get the six switches. I have a shop of similar size and I also have 4 rows of fixtures. However I only have 2 switches and have yet to find an occasion where I left one set off. Recently I had a ballast go out and I noticed it being out. So even the absence of 1 fixture made a difference in the lighting. I am just wondering why you would want that many switches.

Oh, yeah! Welcome to the creek!

[Wilbur Pan]

Here's how I calculated my lighting needs when I was setting up my shop.

I wanted 100 foot candles of light at my work surface. Multiply that by the area of my shop (11' x 20') means that I need a total of 22000 lumens. Multiply that by some fudge factors to account for the distance of the bulbs to the height of the work surface, loss of light as the bulb ages, and the effect of dust building up on the fixtures, and that number pretty much doubles to 44000 lumens. The bulbs that I picked up (4 foot T8 bulbs) put out 2200 lumens each, so I needed enough fixtures for 20 bulbs.

My initial thought was that was way too many bulbs. As it turned out, I wasn't able to put in enough fixtures for 20 bulbs in my shop, due to pipes running across the ceiling in my basement shop in inopportune places, and now I wish I had more light, so my guess is that Mr. Lindsey is not too far off in his article.

In your case, the same calculations comes out to about 224000 lumens for your shop. Googling your bulbs gave me 2800 lumens per bulb, so that's 80 bulbs, or 40 two bulb fixtures. Luckily, you have windows, so that will help a lot in the daytime.

[Dave Zeigler]

Others may disagree with me but I don't quite get the six switches. I have a shop of similar size and I also have 4 rows of fixtures. However I only have 2 switches and have yet to find an occasion where I left one set off. Recently I had a ballast go out and I noticed it being out. So even the absence of 1 fixture made a difference in the lighting. I am just wondering why you would want that many switches.

Oh, yeah! Welcome to the creek!

I'm tight with a dollar. I pay nearly 14 cents/kwh for power. I can't exclusively put in task lighting since I don't know how the shop will evolve or where I will end up putting some tools. The idea is that usually I will use only the center lighting zone. During the day, I'll use half of that. When I need to use the "ends" of the shop, I'll turn on the lights there. So, three zones and a day/night capability = six switches. Also, I want two circuits for redundancy at night, in the unlikely event that a lighting breaker trips.

The windows do let in a lot of light. The front of the building faces due South.

I was thinking that I could add task lighting as needed, in a semi-temporary way to assist the general lighting plan I've outlined. Folly?


Wilbur,
Thanks for the data. I guess the lighting at my workplace is terribly inadequate! The article does state 100 foot candles for the over 40 crowd and 50 for the under. Interesting how you planned for the losses from dust, age and distance. I'll need some time with google tomorrow.

Thanks again,
Dave

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dave,

I used that article to design the lighting in my shop. I'm pushing age 60 real hard. My shop is 32' x 24'. I installed 11 8'-4 bulb fluorescent fixtures using similar bulbs to what you have. Everyone who comes into the shop likes the lighting, even my friends over 60.

I wouldn't hesitate to use what Jack Lindsey recommends. As far as the switches go....whatever the # of circuits you want to have is purely personal choice.

[Ken Jackson]

Dave,

I have an approximate 20'x20' garage shop lit by 32W T8 tubes for the past five years. There are 4 fixtures with 4 tubes in each for a total of 16 tubes. My ceilings are about 8.5' and I think that the lighting levels are probably similar to the original conditions of your hand-me-down tubes (Congrats!).

I've been very satisfied with the light levels even though I thought that I was putting in more than I needed when I installed them. In hindsight i should have probably put in two more fixtures but task lighting has helped when I need additional light for specific work. For most of the day to day work when I can make it into the shop I find the lighting more than adequate.

I think you have a good layout and the switch pattern you've setup should allow some control over how you light the shop when you're working in isolated areas. I think you'll be happy with the layout you've posted and with the density of fixtures I doubt you'll need task lighting as much as you expect.

Good Luck!

[Larry Browning]

Dave,
I still work a day job, so much of my shop time is in the evening, and I only have 1 window in the main shop. (I wanted the wall space) So my situation may be a little different than yours. BTW, I do have 2 circuits for the lights as well.
Here is a piece of advice that took me a long time to learn. Don't over engineer or analyze stuff. I try to follow the KISS principle pretty closely when ever I can. It usually works out the best in the long run.
Just do what you think will work best for you. If you think you need a switch of every fixture, do that! At the end of the day you will be happier.

One more BTW: I have no idea what I pay per KWH. I just know that my shop is on a separate meter from the house that has a minimum charge and I hardly ever go over that, even in the summer when I run a window AC unit, so electric usage is really not an issue for me.

[Dave Zeigler]

Dave,

Here is a piece of advice that took me a long time to learn. Don't over engineer or analyze stuff. I try to follow the KISS principle pretty closely when ever I can. It usually works out the best in the long run.


LOL! Yep, you got me pegged!

I'm not bored enough to do the math, but I bet it would take years to pay for wiring six switches vs. two or three. Copper isn't cheap after all. If I have all the lights on in the shop, It may cost me 25 cents/hour. Not a bank buster.

I'm always turning off lights when I leave a room in the house. Now that we've upgraded most lights to CF's, it doesn't have the same impact to the bill. Old habits die hard I guess.

I've done more research and it looks like I should put in more fixtures. I'll post another drawing or two when I get done.

Thanks to all for the input.
Dave

[Dave Zeigler]

Since I need more light fixtures, I became concerned about routing my dust collection duct. Here are two designs I came up with. Instead of the 40 fixtures Wilbur came up with, I have 36. It should get me in ballpark of 100 foot candles, as long as the tubes are clean.

With this one, I don't worry where the duct will cross the lights. I'll have to hang it below the tubes, but since it crosses the tubes at a right angle, the loss of light should be minimal.

http://home.stny.rr.com/dzeigler/images/lightingV2.jpg


With this one, I can keep the duct flush with the ceiling, but I'm somewhat constrained with where I branch off. I would want to keep the duct near the middle of two light runs.
http://home.stny.rr.com/dzeigler/images/lightingV3.jpg


Here is what the shop cross section looks like.
http://home.stny.rr.com/dzeigler/images/cross%20section.jpg


Decisions, decisions...

Dave

[Jim O'Dell]

I vote for the second plan. I have a 20 X 24' shop and I planned for 28 bulbs. I have mine in 2 zones on 2 circuits. But I have another switch on one circuit that allows me to have only the lights above my work bench on, plus the other circuit. That's all I really used. In the middle of my shop I have more lights than the rest of the shop. And I actually need 3 more fixtures to have all 28 lights up and running. So I guess I'm running about half most of the time unless I need to work on the other side of the shop. I also have 5 pair of task lights. The only ones I really use are at the DP (on the side of the shop that stays darker) and sometimes the ones at the BS (on the fringe area in the middle). My wife thinks it's overkill, but the older I get (52) the more light I have to have. So if it's overkill now, it might not be in a few years.

And nice shop! You have done well. I'd love to see some pictures of the interior! Jim.

[Joe Jensen]

I have nine 4 bulb fixtures with 40w bulbs and my shop is amazingly bright. I don't know that I would go with less, but I would not ever put more in a future shop.

My shop is a 3 car garage measuring 20 by 30 with a 9 foot celing. the walls and ceiling are painted white. The fixtures are installed in three rows of three.

[Charlie T. Bear]

Hi, I recently built a new shop also, Mt shop is 28 x 40 like yours. I have 10' ceilings. I ran my 4 ft floros very similar to your first plan. I hung them on chains so the DC ducting would be above the lights. I centered up 20 fixtures total on 2 switches, FWIW I have NO regrets. I can see just fine I would layout my fixtures the same way if I were to do it again.

[Dave Zeigler]

Thanks for the input guys. Great ideas coming in. I still haven't made up my mind yet, but I'm leaning towards the the 6 rows of 6 fixtures. I'll likely use the 8' four tube fixtures where possible. I may buy one tonight to get a good look at it. If I don't use it in the shop, there's always the garage.

Could those of you who post your specific lighting setup please include your age (or at least over/under 50, 40 etc). I'm 46. While I am sensitive to bright light such as direct sunlight, I find I need more light than I did just a few years ago. I also need bifocals and I get eyestrain quicker. It seems the lighting requirements for woodworkers requires a tailored-to-the-individual approach.

I found this table doing some research on the subject:
http://www.elec-toolbox.com/usefulinfo/lighttip.htm

It has good information on lighting requirements. While 50 to 100 foot candles is good general lighting for our shops, extensive detail work such as using a scrollsaw should have up to 500 foot candles of task lighting. I imagine a gooseneck fixture on the saw would be fine.

Dave

P.S. Jim O'Dell, I think you've seen some pic's of the inside of my shop already. I have an active thread on the Clearvue forum (userid "fullmetal") about designing and prototyping a CMS dust hood - which you also posted on.;)
You can get a peek here of the shop inside:
http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones.com/v/Dust+Hoods+and+Pickups/fullmetal3/

Not much to look at really. All unfinished, but the saw is cool.:cool:

I'll be taking down the duct to insulate and hang OSB. I'll be moving the cyclone as well.

I will post some inside pic's on this thread as I progress through the lighting.

[Chris Parks]

Why would anyone use flouros when you can buy COMPACT flouro bulbs. They don't take up anywhere the space, they don't use ballasts or starters, the tubes don't burn out in 12 months etc. With that number of lights in a shop you would be forever working on them when they get a bit old. I threw all mine out and have b\never regreted it.

[Dave Zeigler]

Why would anyone use flouros when you can buy COMPACT flouro bulbs. They don't take up anywhere the space, they don't use ballasts or starters, the tubes don't burn out in 12 months etc. With that number of lights in a shop you would be forever working on them when they get a bit old. I threw all mine out and have b\never regreted it.

I currently have CF bulbs in the shop, but way too few.
For me, the reason to switch to T8 tubes is efficiency. The CF bulbs put out less lumens/watt. You are right about the space, but CF's have the "ballast"/starter circuitry in the base of the bulb. When it goes, the whole bulb is replaced. I looked up some CF bulbs and the MTBF is actually shorter (by more than 1/2) than on the T8's I have been given. The initial cost is similar and there are 350W equivalent CF bulbs out there that put out nearly as much light as a two tube 4' fixture, so the wiring could be nearly the same. Cleaning CF bulbs is probably easier.

I believe that commercial grade tube fixtures with good quality electronic ballasts will last a long time without worry.

This is a personal choice based on personal priorities.

Thanks for your input!

Dave

[Phil B]

Like others, I’ll give you an example of what I have in my shop, you can read more about it on my web page as well.

I have four lighting circuits which are configured to adjust the overall lighting levels. My shop is roughly divided into two zones, bench / machine. In each area, every other bulb (fixture) is controlled by one switch.

In each area of my shop, I can turn on the lights on so there is either 77 or 154 lumens per foot (at the bulb). The lower number is fine most of the time especially in daylight with the doors open. When I really need light, 154 is plenty.

As for a recommendation, I would arrange the fixtures in four circuits with a general illumination pattern. Bunching them together in stings on a single circuit would be the wrong thing to do. If you wanted to leave yourself some options, you could run some #/3 wire instead of #/2.

PMB

[Wilbur Pan]

One other issue with CF bulbs is that they act much more as a point source of light, even with diffusers and reflectors, so that you'll have more issues with shadows right where you don't want them. DAMHIKT.

Fluorescent tubes have much less of an issue with this because they emit light over a wider area. Because of the point source issue, fixtures that put the bulbs farther apart gives you more even light than the ones that put the bulbs side by side.

For occasions that I need more light than the general light level given out by my fluorescents, I will use task lighting.

[Dave Zeigler]

Like others, I’ll give you an example of what I have in my shop, you can read more about it on my web page as well.

I have four lighting circuits which are configured to adjust the overall lighting levels. My shop is roughly divided into two zones, bench / machine. In each area, every other bulb (fixture) is controlled by one switch.

In each area of my shop, I can turn on the lights on so there is either 77 or 154 lumens per foot (at the bulb). The lower number is fine most of the time especially in daylight with the doors open. When I really need light, 154 is plenty.

As for a recommendation, I would arrange the fixtures in four circuits with a general illumination pattern. Bunching them together in stings on a single circuit would be the wrong thing to do. If you wanted to leave yourself some options, you could run some #/3 wire instead of #/2.

PMB

I took a quick look at your website. Thank you very much for sharing it. You have a great looking shop and I'm sure I'll learn from your example. I'll have to go back and give it a closer look when I'm not at work.:eek:

I also want to stagger the light circuits such that I have the option of off-1/2-full lighting. I'm still mulling that one over.

Dave

[Chris Parks]

I haven't experienced the issues you guys speak of. CF bulbs are available these days up to 200 watts of light output, far too strong for a workshop unless you had really high ceilings. I put up two bulbs for every tube fitting I removed and was extremely pleased with the result and mostly I don't miss the unending issues replacing tubes, starters etc. After doing this I will never buy another tube light fitting ever again as the benefits are so many with CF.

[Dave Zeigler]

Well, I believe I've settled on a plan. After this Labor Day weekend, I'll begin wiring for the planned lighting, a "whole house" fan and some ceiling outlets. Then on to insulation and hanging OSB on the ceiling. After a couple of coats of paint, I'll put up the light fixtures I've settled on. Perhaps I'll start a new thread to show progress.

A couple of notes FWIW:
I bought an 8', 4 tube fixture at the Homer D. Poe store. It contains one ballast for all 4 tubes, so no ability to control 2 tubes at a time. Two 4' fixtures costs about $10 more. For my planned usage and "current" (no pun intended) cost of power, I'll get a return on that investment in 3.5 years. So, all 4' fixtures are going in.

If I need additional light for specific areas like the workbench, I may add CF lights.

I took the time to check out the lighting levels at my workplace. I work in an office area, but within the same facility is a large manufacturing area lit by high pressure sodium. Within that area are precision hand assembly workbenches which have additional fluorescent task lighting. I borrowed a light meter and took readings in the three areas. Here are the results:

Office area. Most work done on computers. At the desktop: 51 foot candles.

Manufacturing area. Assembly of large subsystems, at the benchtop: 81 foot candles.

Precision hand work with additional task lighting, at the benchtop: 164 foot candles.

It was good to get actual numbers for areas I'm familiar with. It helps to have a reference for my planning.

I'll be targeting 90 to 100 foot candles in my shop for general lighting.

Thanks to all for your help. I'll be putting in more light than I think I currently need in anticipation of growing needs as I get older.

Regards,
Dave Zeigler

[Joe Jensen]

Why would anyone used flouros when you can buy COMPACT flouro bulbs. They don't take up anywhere the space, they don't use ballasts or starters, the tubes don't burn out in 12 months etc. With that number of lights in a shop you would be forever working on them when they get a bit old. I threw all mine out and have b\never regreted it.

My personal experience has been that 4 foot bulbs seem to last forever. I bought used fixture with bulbs from an office building taht was being demolished. I installed them in my shop 19 years ago. I've only replaced maybe 12 of the 36 bults in that time, and I started with used bulbs. I'm sure the bulbs were quality when I started, maybe cheap bulbs are different?