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Belinda Barfield
08-25-2008, 6:40 PM
Just ordered my first IkonMetal Brass. I have an order for 16 memorial plaques to be placed at a local historical cemetery. The plaques will be mounted on the brick pillars separating the fence sections, and one on the gate.

Any new tips, tricks, insights into working with this material. I have the capability to cut it with a CNC router. Is this a better option that cutting with the laser? All input greatly appreciated.

Also, the price for this material just dropped. The brass was 115 for a 12 x 24 size, now it is 103.

Mike Null
08-25-2008, 8:59 PM
Belinda

I believe the best option with this material is sandblasting.

When I attempted to laser it it was painfully slow going to get 1/32" depth and it warped slightly. I was using the 1/4" brass.

It looked great but I won't use it for lasering.

martin g. boekers
08-25-2008, 10:53 PM
Belinda,

I have worked with a couple of sample packs. It is a mess to work with.

It does warp fairly easily, even on small items. I was hoping it would be the answer I was looking for to make coins, it wasn't. It has potential but they need to improve it.

The structure of it is a composite "resin" type bonder, this holds the fine metallic dust together. The laser etches away the binder and leaves the powder behind! Talk about a mess!!! After doing a few smaller sections, 6x8
I had to take the belt off the drive motor to clean the dust out of the grooves, so things were not miss registered.

Laser cutting is tough and slow (I have a 75 watt laser) It gets a rough edge when you cut. Most often you have to make multiple passes. You need to have air assist running high as the material tends to rebond itself unless the powder is blown away quickly.

The material is VERY brittle, don't drop it! Precut holes for mounting and be careful as you bolt it down.

All this being said, I like the idea of the product and I'll follow it hoping for improvements

Be careful if you want to reverse engrave so the letters stand up from the background (like a cast sign) this will generate much heat an facilitate warping. It takes away some of the stabality and will tend to break easier.

I'm not sure if they make the .25 inch material, the packs I bought were about .125 in thick.

This being said, with careful work this is what I figured would be a perfect use for their product, outdoor signage.

I hope you job works well and keep us posted with what your experiences are.
I haven't found too many people that have really worked with this material to weigh my experience with!

Marty

Mike Null
08-26-2008, 6:48 AM
Belinda

There are some pictures in this thread. http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=59665&highlight=ikon+metal

Belinda Barfield
08-26-2008, 8:08 AM
Mike & Marty,

Thanks for the replies. Mike, yesterday I reviewed the post you mentioned.

I talked with Ikonics about the material prior to quoting the job and they assured me it was laserable. Rest assured, I will be giving them a follow up call regarding my efforts. I suppose we could just use the CNC to rout, instead of the laser.

If I adhere the material to a substrate do either of you think will that decrease warpage? These are to resemble a cast bronze plaque with the lettering proud of the backgroud, so yes, I will be clearing a lot of area.

I will keep you all posted. The brittleness factor is a real concern as I will not be installing these plaques. I'm thinking I'll adhere it to a substrate anyway just for stability.

Mike Null
08-26-2008, 8:52 AM
The warpage occurs during the lasering process. The material I tested was 1/4" thick. My guess is that thinner material will warp more easily--only a guess--it's possible that being thinner it will dissipate the heat more readily thus not warp as much.

If you can manage to get the depth you're after I think you will like the result but you will earn your money.

Belinda Barfield
08-26-2008, 9:01 AM
The warpage occurs during the lasering process.

Understood. I should have worded my question differently. If I adhere the product to a rigid substrate, such as Corian, and then laser do you think that would decrease the chance of warping?

Mike Null
08-26-2008, 9:04 AM
Belinda

I do not think you can overcome the warping using a substrate. You may be able to do it by using a lower resolution and more passes.

martin g. boekers
08-27-2008, 12:13 AM
Belinda,

The warpage I got was definitely when engraving. The material heats up rapidly. I actually thought about having 2 aluminum plates as heat sinks, One underneath then one to set on top after engraving to cool it down quicker.

The discs I did were only 1.75" dia. but I did a invert so I could get the raised type effect. It took 3 passes at 80 pwr 40 speed 300 dpi (Do some testing here to see what the lowest dpi you can use, this will save you much time and create less heat as the laser isn't firing as often) to get the effect I wanted with the bronze, stainless was longer. I used a 75 watt epilog. it took about 10 minutes total for the three passes plus a couple minutes to vector cut and this was just a small circle.

The more you etch away, the more prone it will be to warp as you're heating it up pretty good and there is less material to dissipate the heat.

Make sure it cools sufficiently before you start additional passes. If your plaques are large say 8X10 you might even consider going over the surface with a hand held vacuum to remove the residual powder between passes as it will interfere with the efficiency of the laser.

These are just some observations I had. I look forward to seeing how things work out with your job.

I have a similar one in the works, I was hoping the metal would work but I'm leaning toward marble or granite right now.

Let us know how job goes,

Thanks,

Marty

Belinda Barfield
08-27-2008, 10:57 AM
Marty,

Thanks for the pointers. The plaque is 8 x 10 and I was planning, after the previous comments, to vacuum between passes. I'm planning to glue a 0.5" Corian backer prior to lasering. I'm going to cut the blank, already glued up, on our CNC router. I need to use the backer anyway to give the thickness desired by the customer. I will keep you posted and take pics of the finished product. It won't be anything fancy but I'll post a pic anyway. :)

David Takes
08-27-2008, 10:42 PM
Belinda,

Another concern will be the long term weatherability of this material. If you don't have a way to apply a good baked-on polymer clear coat, you might run into an issue with tarnishing. This material will discolor very quickly, so you need to seal it well. Just a heads up.

Belinda Barfield
11-03-2008, 3:27 PM
Thanks for all your replies and here is my update for any of you out there who haven't worked with the material. Pics to follow as soon as the clear coat is dry.

I decided to cut out the blank on the CNC router. I adhered to blank to a 1/4" thick Corian blank the same size. No warping during the engraving process.:) My one issue with engraving this product is that it produces a LOT of dust. Very messy, very annoying clean up. To achieve the proper depth I ran two passes. Engraving time for the two passes was about an hour and a half, longer than anticipated, but this was basically removing all of the background material for a "bronze historial marker" look.

I have 15 of these to do and am seriously considering doing all of the work on the CNC router since dust isn't so much of an issue with that machine.

Will post pics and settings soon.

David Takes
11-03-2008, 3:45 PM
Belinda,

You have figured out through the School of Hard Knocks that the best tool for this material is a CNC or smaller rotary engraving machine. I, like you, can't stand the mess this material makes in the laser, nor the additional passes it takes to get the depth you want.

Kim Vellore
11-03-2008, 3:57 PM
How is the warping like a dome or bowl. If it is a dome it is probably due to heat, top expanding faster than the bottom, but I doubt that is the case. If the warping is like a bowl, it is probably because the top is shrinking due to lasering. The laser burns away the resin and the powder metal melts and fuses so the net area is reduced shrinking the top making it warp like a bowl.
if it is a dome shape warping preheating before lasering might help a little. Just curious.

Kim

Belinda Barfield
11-04-2008, 8:30 AM
Belinda,

You have figured out through the School of Hard Knocks that the best tool for this material is a CNC or smaller rotary engraving machine. I, like you, can't stand the mess this material makes in the laser, nor the additional passes it takes to get the depth you want.

David,

After all the initial feedback I had actually decided to just use the CNC, but I didn't have the proper bit. Maybe this question is better placed on the CNC forum, but there seems to be a lot of cross over between the CNC form and the LE forum, so I'll post it here. I needed a bit small enough to get into the areas of 0.5" Times New Roman Font. What bit would you recommend? Raised letters, not engraved.

David Takes
11-04-2008, 10:00 AM
Belinda,

Unfortunately, I'm not one who crosses over to the CNC, although a CNC machine is on my list of equipment I'm hoping to find a reason to purchase. I am sure there are others here who can help you with your question.

Kenneth Hertzog
11-04-2008, 1:07 PM
Belinda

are using a cnc machine that uses a router or a milling machine.
using a milling bit on a router could create problems
they really aren't made for high RPM's
I've been using a bit that pulls the chips upwards and this seems
to have stopped a burning problem that I was having using a milling bit.
I have used Ikon metal thru the laser and have not had any serious
warping problems.
have not used it on the cnc machine ( yet )
being an acrylic base material be careful of melting from to fast running
and or cutting.
can I help with anything else?

ken

Dave Johnson29
11-04-2008, 1:35 PM
I needed a bit small enough to get into the areas of 0.5" Times New Roman Font.


Hi Belinda,

There is a good selection of cutters at www.msc-direct.com

Search on "engraving cutters"

Belinda Barfield
11-04-2008, 3:53 PM
Belinda

are using a cnc machine that uses a router or a milling machine.
using a milling bit on a router could create problems
they really aren't made for high RPM's
I've been using a bit that pulls the chips upwards and this seems
to have stopped a burning problem that I was having using a milling bit.
I have used Ikon metal thru the laser and have not had any serious
warping problems.
have not used it on the cnc machine ( yet )
being an acrylic base material be careful of melting from to fast running
and or cutting.
can I help with anything else?

ken

Ken,

CNC machine that uses a router. I don't use the CNC that much so I'll pass this along to my partner who does. I'll be sure to call on you with questions that come to mind. Thanks! :)

Belinda Barfield
11-04-2008, 3:54 PM
Hi Belinda,

There is a good selection of cutters at www.msc-direct.com (http://www.msc-direct.com)

Search on "engraving cutters"

Thanks for the info. I'm sure I'll be needing your help in the future as well.

Kenneth Hertzog
11-04-2008, 4:36 PM
Belinda

Anything I can do to help let me know. will be glad to assist.
the bit I use on the cnc router is and up cut spiral bit
pulls most of the chips up out of the cut so the next pass
doesn't burn in.

ken

Belinda Barfield
11-19-2008, 8:56 AM
Not a great photo, but posted as promised. This is the first plaque I made. I have yet to figure out why, but ended up with a little raster divot at the right upper corner. I decided to go ahead and finish it to get a feel for how the material accepted paint, etc. The final plaque got out the door before I got a photo of it. Customer's choice of wording, etc. I personally would have added a date. This will be placed on the gate of a historic cemetery in Miday, GA.

60 Watt settings
Raster Power 100%, Speed 25%, DPI 600. Two passes, refocused at rastered depth for the second pass.
Vector Power 100%, Speed 1.5, DPI 1300. Two passes. I only cut the plugs for the screw holes. The blank was cut with a CNC router.
Time was around 45 minutes per pass. Lots of char with vectoring but easily removed with 4-aught steel wool.

As I mentioned before, lots of dust. I will be using the CNC router for these in the future.

101440

Kenneth Hertzog
11-19-2008, 3:28 PM
Belinda

You have done a fine job on the plaque
and I agree their is lots of dust.

ken