Help! Beginner Breaking Screws

[Jeff DeTray]

I'm a beginning woodworker, and I am breaking wood screws!

After building several projects from pine, I'm now using hardwood (red oak) for the first time to build a simple desk. I'm using Dewalt countersinks (the kind with tapered bits) to drill pilot holes for the wood screws. The screws are zinc-plated #6 and #8 flathead wood screws, 1-1/2" long, purchased from either Lowes or a local hardware store. I adjusted the countersinks so that the depth of the hole beyond the countersink cutters is slightly greater than the length of the screw.

However, when I drive the screws, the head and unthreaded portion of the screws are snapping off just above the threads before the screw is fully seated. This leaves the threaded portion of the screw deep in the hole.

I started with #6 screws and broke the first 5 in a row. So I then switched to #8 and broke 2 out of the first 3. I've used both Craftsman and Black & Decker drill/drivers to drive the screws. I then drove one #8 screw by hand; it did not break, but I was not able to drive it to the full depth. Since I'm also using glue, the structure will probably be sound, but I feel like a dope because I can't drive a screw without breaking it.

In a related problem, I am getting burning of the oak when drilling the holes with the Dewalt countersinks.

So what am I doing wrong?
Poor technique?
Poor-quality screws?
Poor choice of countersinks?
All of the above?

I never had this problem when working with pine!

Thanks,
Jeff

Below you can see broken #6 and #8 screws, the one #8 screw I drove to full depth without breaking, one of the holes that happens to have a broken screw deep inside, and a Dewalt countersink that shows discoloration from the heat that was generated when drilling the holes. You'll also notice that the edges of the holes aren't very clean; is that typical of the results one can expect from these countersink bits?

[Johnny Kleso]

Poor Quality Screws and your hole can be drilled deeper and try finishing it to depth by hand..

Pratice in scrap till you get a system that works.. Try using a straight drill bit to clear out the screw body size after the counter sink bit.. Keep trying in scrap till your sure you will not break screws..

Even if you have the best screws this still applys..

McFeely's makes square drives and I hate using Borg screws or even phillips screws these days..

I see your screws are from the Borg, you get that you pay for with screws and the Borg's are the worst for woodworking..

[David Freed]

I agree. Some screws can be such low quality, they will break if you look at them too hard. If you aren't drilling your pilot hole deep enough, hardwood will put good quality screws to the test.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I had the same problem (red oak, #6 1 1/2" screws, in a #6 tapered countersinked hole) and the store where I purchased them didn't matter. I upsized the hole to a #7 and/or used the #8 and drilled it twice and had success in both cases.

I don't think the #6 screw is strong enough to be screwed into red oak 1 1/2" deep.

[Tom Henderson2]

Are you lubricating the screw before installing it?

Beeswax, paraffin, etc all work. Or you can buy purpose-made stuff.

[Mort Stevens]

The Dewalt countersinks don't drill a large enough pilot hole for hardwoods. You could try using the #8 countersink for #6 screws or the #10 for #8 screws.

[glenn bradley]

All good advise here. Foremost, quality fasteners. There are many suppliers but I have never broken a McFeely's screw or a Kreg for that matter. Screws from the BORG? Oh, yeah, I can break them with a hand powered phillips driver; that's a weak screw. One snapped screw and the resulting impact to my project cured me of thinking that quality fasteners are expensive; they're not.

[Brian Kent]

Does anyone know which woodworking magazine had a review of screws this spring? I do remember that there were 4 types, which they challenged by screwing into oak without a pilot. The Home Depot screws broke - either 18 or 20 of the 20. None of he spax screws broke (McFeeley's or Highland woodworking).

Anyone remember the article?

[Peter Quinn]

I don't know about the article, but in my not so scientific way I tested the SPAX screws when I first bought them P Quinn style, with some hard maple and my cordless impact driver. I ran THE SAME SCREW in and out repeatedly (new hole each time) about 20 times, no wax, no pilot, no problem. The screw was VERY hot but it didn't give up.

I have stopped using screws from big box retailers and generic hardware stores and started using annealed assembly screws from wood working stores. Much more reliable. I don't remember generic screws breaking as a kid like they seem to now. Have they gone crappy or is it my imagination?

[Joe Jensen]

I've never broken a screw from McFeelys even with my impact driver. Broke the screws from Home Depot all time until I stopped buying them. gave several thousand to the landscaper dudes.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Have they gone crappy or is it my imagination?"

It's not you. The "quality" of typical hardware store stuff has gotten so bad that I don't even bother with them anymore.

[Mark Smith, too]

The BORG screws are contributing to your problem. Using the method you are using, a #6 driven 1-1/2 inches deep into hardwood requires a lot of torque as you discovered by hand driving. To do this you'll need to find better screws that those at the BORG.

Second, pilot holes in hardwood need to be larger than for the same screw in softwood. The advice to set your bit to drive drive deeper or to up-size one bit size will take care of that. I don't know how DeWalt sizes their taper drills. They may be sized for softwood.

I've never used a DeWalt taper drill but with burning and discoloration you may have picked up an improperly sharpened bit. It could also be you are using too slow a drive speed, or are not clearing the chips often enough. I'd suspect the bit, however.

Assuming you are attaching 3/4 stock to something else, you can help yourself by drilling a full width shank hole through the board you are attaching. You don't want threads grabbing the top board anyway, and then you will only be driving 3/4 inch into hardwood. Your screws might take that since you've eliminated friction in the first 3/4 inch.

The tear out may also be due to a not sharp enough countersink.

[Joe Scharle]

All good advise here. Foremost, quality fasteners. There are many suppliers but I have never broken a McFeely's screw or a Kreg for that matter. Screws from the BORG? Oh, yeah, I can break them with a hand powered phillips driver; that's a weak screw. One snapped screw and the resulting impact to my project cured me of thinking that quality fasteners are expensive; they're not.

I've driven hundreds of Kregs into pocket hole (no pilot hole in the receiver) and never broke one. Walnut, maple, both oaks. McFeely; same experience. Last weekend, I snapped a BORG 12 X 3 in pine. The BORG screws are getting softer.

[Lewis DeJoseph]

Sure I remember it, it's the summer issue of Woodworking Magazine. If I remember right they figured the cost of the McFeely's to be the better buy.


Does anyone know which woodworking magazine had a review of screws this spring? I do remember that there were 4 types, which they challenged by screwing into oak without a pilot. The Home Depot screws broke - either 18 or 20 of the 20. None of he spax screws broke (McFeeley's or Highland woodworking).

Anyone remember the article?

[Terry Browne]

All good tips but you should also lube the screw with bee's wax or other good lube before driving screws into hardwood. Bar soap works in a pinch but it can cause the screws to rust and make them difficult to remove if ever needed. A little lubricant will probably solve the problem with the screws you have.

[Alan Huey]

Lubrication always helps. Wax, Soap, etc. etc.
countersink larger also would help, but be careful not to oversize compared to your threads. You want them to bite for strength

[Jeff DeTray]

Thanks to everyone for the many helpful ideas. It's some consolation to learn I may not be a complete idiot after all and that the low quality screws may be a contributor.

Mark guessed correctly that I am attaching 3/4 stock to something else. After reading your posts, I did a bit of experimenting with scrap.

First I used the #6 countersink and a #6 screw, but I lubricated the screw with candle wax (the only lubricant that was handy). The screw broke.

Next I used the #8 countersink, a #6 screw, and candle wax. The screw did not break. Admittedly, I had the torque on the driver at a fairly weak setting, but I could feel the screw bottom out, so I think it "bit" into the wood.

I also tried the #10 countersink, a #8 screw, and candle wax. That also did not break. So using a larger countersink and lubing the screws will prevent breakage with these screws, but I don't know how strong the joints will be. It might be enough to go up just one size on the countersinks, but of course I have only the even numbers -- #6, #8, and #10.

I'll do more testing when it's not so late at night -- I don't want my shop noises to disturb the neighbors. More results then.

Interestingly, I discovered McFeely's for the first time just a few days ago. Perhaps it's time to place my first order.

- Jeff

[Don Eddard]

So using a larger countersink and lubing the screws will prevent breakage with these screws, but I don't know how strong the joints will be.
Jeff, I think you'll have plenty of strength even though the pilot holes are bigger. Especially considering you're gluing the joints, too.

[Chris Kennedy]

I'll pretty much echo the common thought -- the quality of your screws. I haven't had much trouble with the borg screws as some seem to have had, but I stopped buying them from one of my local hardware stores when I lived in PA. They were junk and snapped all the time (in pine!).

You may also have a defective batch. I had that happen once as well. I bought a box of screws from a very reputable lumber store near my dad's and started having trouble driving them in redwood with sizable pilots. I broke one when drove it by hand. I took them back and at first the guy was reluctant to believe me. Then he drove one by hand and it bent. They pulled the lot from the shelves to test them, and gave me replacements from a different batch. They were fine.

Cheers,

Chris

[Danny Thompson]

If you are in a hurry (no time to mail-order), try the coated deck screws from the BORG. None has ever broken for me.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Wood Screws at the Borgs are all made from mouse droppings.

Their higher end wood screws are made from turtle droppings.


Metal processing is not simple or straightforward. Different processes will produce qualities of steel and brass that are different from each other and often in dramatic ways. Then there are the mechanical forming processes used to form things like screws.

The BORGs all use the suppliers who make all their purchasing decision based on cost as the sole factor. Then the BORGS make their decisions based on cost alone. And when you go to the BORG well you are either there because of a "cost first" decision or it's just the place you know. Either way you are taking a hosing on things like wood screws.

Which means you are getting the worst of the mouse dropping screws that humans can make.


Interestingly I have found the Deck Screws at the BORG fo be far superior to those I can get from the local Ace hardware.

Go Figure.

[Christopher Foote]

The second time I broke the head off of a screw in a project (red oak) that I had invested a lot of time in was when I gave up on wood screws. Drilling an oversized hole greatly reduces the strength of a joint. I bought a wood tapping tap from lee valley and use stain-less steel machine screws from the hardware store. It works great. Also for fine furniture the thickness of the piece of wood you are screwing into is generally less than 1". Even with a well engineered screw there is not a lot of depth for holding strength. I got the idea from reading one of David Charlesworth's books, he mentions that he taps holes for many of the hinges he installs on his furniture.

Christopher

[Jesse Cloud]

Above advice is good. However, the glue will give you way more strength for a longer time than any screw. With 'glue and screw', the screws are there mainly as clamps until the glue cures. Bottom line - if the joint closes tightly, don't worry about it.

And I'll add to the chorus that McFeeley's screws are worth the money and the catalog is very educational, too!

[Don Bergren]

My local Ace Hardware carries GRK brand screws and I've found them to be excellent. I've been a McFeely's users for years, but the GRK's have won me over and I am phasing out my great McFeely's square drives in favor of the great GRK brand. I haven't had any problems in hardwood's so far, but proper sized pilot holes are a must with any screw.

[Bill White]

All good tips but you should also lube the screw with bee's wax or other good lube before driving screws into hardwood. Bar soap works in a pinch but it can cause the screws to rust and make them difficult to remove if ever needed. A little lubricant will probably solve the problem with the screws you have.


I know that this may sound too hi-tech, but I have a toilet bowl wax sealing ring in my shop fridge. Any time I need to drive some screws, out comes the old bowl ring. Voilla!!

Bill;)

[Mark Smith, too]

Next I used the #8 countersink, a #6 screw, and candle wax. The screw did not break. Admittedly, I had the torque on the driver at a fairly weak setting, but I could feel the screw bottom out, so I think it "bit" into the wood.

I also tried the #10 countersink, a #8 screw, and candle wax. That also did not break. So using a larger countersink and lubing the screws will prevent breakage with these screws, but I don't know how strong the joints will be. It might be enough to go up just one size on the countersinks, but of course I have only the even numbers -- #6, #8, and #10.

If DeWalt sized their drill for softwood, the next size up drill is only about 1/64 of an inch larger than what is needed for the smaller screw in hardwood. So an 8 drill should only be 1/64 larger than the recommended size for a 6 in hardwood under the above scenario.
This means you'll get plenty of grip using that approach. Glue will give you a joint that won't pull apart.

Again, drill a clearance hole through the top board (drill it after creating your first hole so things line up) and you can probably get away with the 6 drill for a 6 screw.

[Harry Goodwin]

Somewhere some time others have used my tip. If you are in a shop use a wax ring for toilet for lubrication. works great and cheap. Bees wax for off site instllatioins. Harry

[Peter M. Spirito]

I set the clutch on my DeWalt to run the screw almost all the way in. The last half-turn I do by hand. I use McFeelys screws exclusively.

[Mike Henderson]

Spax are good screws, also, and I can get them at a local hardware store. If they're available in your area, buy a small pack and give them a try.

Mike

[Lon Schleining]

Can't resist jumping in here.

I've driven a lot of screws; a very wide variety of both different screws and different woods. I mean thirty years worth of screws. I quit using tapered bits decades ago. I also quit using the combo countersink and drill bit sets about the same time.

The countersink hole you get with these bits is poor to say the least compared with a nice clean Forster bit hole. The taper means that the hole is too small in some places. The size might be fine in more forgiving woods like pine and poplar, but not so good for oak or maple. Most importantly, though, IMO, is that the 'top' piece; the one in which you are drilling the counter bore, should have a shank pilot hole large enough for the screw to freely drop through. The taper/counter bore bits don't drill this most important hole the corrrect size.

The idea is to pull two pieces of wood together. That will happen if the threads grab only in the 'bottom' piece and not the top one.

I use three different bits every time I drive a screw into a piece of wood. (Yes, I change bits three times for each screw size, and no it is not tedious, at least not for me.)

Hole#1 -- First, I drill the counter bore hole sized for the plug I'm using.

Hole#2 -- Then I drill a shank hole through the 'top' piece. This is a hole large enough so that the screw drops through it without slowing down.

Hole#3 -- Third, into the 'bottom' piece, I drill a pilot hole sized for the threads, the screw material, the screw size and the wood I'm using; taking all four into account. (see below)

I use a dial caliper to measure the actual shank diameters of the screw first where the upper smooth shank is, then at the threaded shank area. (That's why there's a knife edge on part of the caliber jaws; so the caliper fits in between two adjacent threads.)

This is the diameter for my upper and lower pilot holes in most cases; usually a size larger for the smooth shank area to give it lots of clearance. I pluck the drill bit out of the index using the same caliper setting and off I go.

But if I'm using brass (soft) screws in hard maple, (extreme example) this is only a starting point for the threaded shank pilot hole.

In my opinion, the threaded shank pilot hole should allow you to drive the screw with a screwdriver (yes by hand) quite easily without lubrication. In pine, (soft wood) this pilot hole might even be a touch smaller than the shank. But in hard maple (just about the hardest wood most of us will encounter) the hole will have to be larger; up a size or even two larger, especially if it's one of those @#$%$## small brass hinge screws for that fancy figured maple jewlery box.

If the screw is hard to drive by hand, you risk twisting it off. At first try two or three different sized holes and see how it feels. (If you're worried about the pilot hole being too large, try to pull the screw out with a claw hammer. Trust me you won't be able to do it. I'll break off every time.)

Finally (in closing much to the relief of the audience) my habit these days is to drive the screw almost all the way home with my trusty cordless. And I mean almost. Then, I tighten 'er down by hand with this really good and carefully sized screwdriver I have just for that size.

For those who (yes, I was almost finished, but not quite) like a lot of you are groaning at going to all of this trouble just to drive a screw into a piece of wood, just remember I've driven enough of 'em to finally figure out what works (for me, at least) every time.

[Don Bullock]

They just don't make screws like they used to. It's certainly not you.

[Jeff DeTray]

I did more testing and came up with a satisfactory solution that will let me complete my project with my existing supply of hardware store screws.

I can use the #8 Dewalt countersink and my existing #8 screws if I:


Extend the countersink's drill bit so that portion beyond the cutters is about 1/8" longer than the length of the screw, AND
Lube the screw with candle wax, AND
Carefully drive the screw with my wimply 7.2V Black & Decker drill with the torque set at about mid-range. The Craftsman 19.2V drill doesn't give me enough control.


With this method, the hole in the upper 3/4" wood is large enough for the screw to drop through, but there is still plenty of bite into the underlying piece. Today I assembled one end section of the little writing desk I am building for my wife and did not break a screw.

So I'm learning, which is generally a good thing. Among the lessons learned:

There are big differences in the quality of screws.
When in doubt, test on scrap before risking carefully cut work pieces.
Don't assume that methods suitable for one type of wood will work with another type of wood.


With the hole plugs glued in and sanded flush, you can barely tell that I had such a tough time with the first end section of the desk. Thanks for all your help.

And yes, I will be getting some proper screws real soon, to be used whenever I'm working with hardwood.

- Jeff

[Anthony Anderson]

Spax fasteners for me. Those have a serrated edge, and are awesome. A little more money, but worth it for the avoided aggravation. Also I use an impact driver and that seems to take some of the torsion pressure away from the upper area of the screw shaft. I know it doesn't make sense, but it works for me, especially when using pocket hole screws. I used to have those snap on me all the time, but after I started using a cordless impact, I haven't snapped one. If you decide to use a cordless impact, just ease the screw in near the the end. HTH, Bill

[Jason White]

Sounds like poor-quality screws. Try ceramic-coated deck screws from any home center. They're not tapered, but I guarantee they won't break. Deck screws are less prone to shearing or snapping than drywall or even regular wood screws.

JW


I'm a beginning woodworker, and I am breaking wood screws!

After building several projects from pine, I'm now using hardwood (red oak) for the first time to build a simple desk. I'm using Dewalt countersinks (the kind with tapered bits) to drill pilot holes for the wood screws. The screws are zinc-plated #6 and #8 flathead wood screws, 1-1/2" long, purchased from either Lowes or a local hardware store. I adjusted the countersinks so that the depth of the hole beyond the countersink cutters is slightly greater than the length of the screw.

However, when I drive the screws, the head and unthreaded portion of the screws are snapping off just above the threads before the screw is fully seated. This leaves the threaded portion of the screw deep in the hole.

I started with #6 screws and broke the first 5 in a row. So I then switched to #8 and broke 2 out of the first 3. I've used both Craftsman and Black & Decker drill/drivers to drive the screws. I then drove one #8 screw by hand; it did not break, but I was not able to drive it to the full depth. Since I'm also using glue, the structure will probably be sound, but I feel like a dope because I can't drive a screw without breaking it.

In a related problem, I am getting burning of the oak when drilling the holes with the Dewalt countersinks.

So what am I doing wrong?
Poor technique?
Poor-quality screws?
Poor choice of countersinks?
All of the above?

I never had this problem when working with pine!

Thanks,
Jeff

Below you can see broken #6 and #8 screws, the one #8 screw I drove to full depth without breaking, one of the holes that happens to have a broken screw deep inside, and a Dewalt countersink that shows discoloration from the heat that was generated when drilling the holes. You'll also notice that the edges of the holes aren't very clean; is that typical of the results one can expect from these countersink bits?

[John Marshall]

I am up there with using a good quality screw. I have built many items out of red oak and have been using McFeely's screws since the first day I broke off a BORG screw. I even have a very cheap tapered drill bit and counter sink bit, I have burned out all of the drill bits. I just lube the screw with some wax and off I go. Never broke a McFeely's, I haven't even stripped out a head on their screws.

[Joe Fusco]

Seems everyone has the right answers. If you are not paying top dollar for your screws then they are most likely of poor quality. They look good, but work like crap.:eek:

Even if you do all the technical stuff right you will still most likely snap the heads off of poor quality screws.

Buy good screws:D

[Jake Helmboldt]

Another vote for GRK; indestructible and can be bought at your local hardware store (if you have a good one). Find a local dealer online from GRK and no need to mailorder. They have a wide variety of screws for just about any application.

http://www.grkfasteners.com/ You need to turn off any pop-up blocker software for their dealer locater window.

[John Sanford]

Why use tapered wood screws? :eek: They are fussy, unforgiving, don't hold appreciably better than straight shank screws, etc.

Me, I swore the tapered things off a long time ago. Gotta echo what others have said, McFeely's and Spax, square drive all the way.

[Jerry Nettrour]

I just thought I would throw in a couple penny's worth. I just love the screws I buy from woodworker.com. I have never broken one, they feel extremely strong and I believe the one's I use are even self tapping. They are a decent price, they sell in either 1000, 5000 or 8000 increments. You can usually get a decent buy. They even give a good deal on the pocket screws and also the small 5/8 screws I use for drawer guides and hinges. Just my thoughts.

Here is a recent order of mine to replenish:

144-326 BOX of 1000 EA #7X1-1/4 RWH-SQ 1 25.59 25.59 UPS RS
144-347 BOX of 1000 EA #8X1-1/4 FL-PH 1 25.99 25.99 UPS RS
Have a great woodworking time.


Jerry

[Chris Padilla]

Why are y'all using screws? ;)