sawstop vs other tool upgrades... [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

alex grams

08-19-2008, 11:45 PM

So, i've been looking at getting an old PM/Uni to rebuild for a new table saw to replace the Ridgid TS3650, and the wife drops the bomb that she would prefer me to get the sawstop. The current saw is underpowered on the thicker wood I am cutting, and was a beginner saw for me for about a year now.

I would love to have a sawstop, because of the safety feature and also the quality of the tool, but that is a LOT of money. With the 3hp, 52"fence & table, w/ mobile base, I am looking at $4500,and she is aware of the price.

I have been looking at more shop upgrade options. Need a drum sander and a good dust collector, but this would pretty much put all of that on hold if i dropped 4.5k on a sawstop.

I would honestly feel better getting a grizzly slider for 3k (G0623X) or even a G0651 with the larger tables, or even getting an old uni/powermatic 66 and rebuilding it and then using the other 2-3k for other tools and saving some money. The larger tables and more adequate power would make the work I do safer, but obviously not sawstop safe. A slider would help a LOT on larger crosscuts, and the G0623X looks reasonable (though no clue on common reviews of it).

Financially I can afford it, she said i could do it as a christmas gift to myself. I just have to be frugal and make other sacrifices to save the money, and it seems prices are only going to go up on machinery in the next year.

But I have a difficult time also justifying a $5,000 saw.

Thoughts? It is an interesting dilemma. I am just on the fence though about it and the other options.

Mike Heidrick

08-19-2008, 11:53 PM

Do it. She said too. You will buy it and the $$$ pain will fade. After that you will find more money and more deals and still get all the tools you want for your shop and you will still have a sweet Sawstop. If you get hurt on the TS now and she said get the sawstop, and you did not, you will NEVER live it down with her. Bought mine in 2006 and have never regretted it! $4300 and that was the 5hp machine so $4400 now as it only went up $100 for the 5hp.

Doug Mason

08-20-2008, 12:45 AM

If I were in your shoes I'd get a new General (Canadian). I don't know anything about the Grizzly slider saws--but it sounds like it would cause you more grief than it's worth. Unless you make a good living, $4,500
is alot $$ for one item.

Use the left-over money to get some hand tools to really work wood:o

Vic Damone

08-20-2008, 12:58 AM

+1 Do it. A sliding saw does have its own level of safety and could easily be an option. After explaining the merits of a slider to your wife and getting her consent you should demo the green tool and then demo a Felder, Hammer, or Minimax. The difference in the quality of the sliding table alone is substantial.

At this point the SawStop looks more affordable. Since your wife understands the danger associated with the table saw and with her piece of mind in the mix I wouldn't even consider a traditional saw.

Merry Xmas

Brian Penning

08-20-2008, 6:35 AM

Truly a no-brainer to get the SawStop.

Dave Rose

08-20-2008, 7:20 AM

If you get hurt on the TS now and she said get the sawstop, and you did not, you will NEVER live it down with her.

Very good reasoning. Get the SawStop.

NICK BARBOZA

08-20-2008, 8:31 AM

I think either way you go about it, you will look back and wonder how you lived without the 3hp. i know i have since i bout my SawStop. I also got the 52" rails, and i LOVE this machine. i still turn on the old craftsman once in a while for a dado. I dont know much about sliders, but i know if you end up with the SS you will not regret it. eventually (quickly) you'll get over the cost and you will find more money down the road to get the other machines you want.

I decided that at 24 years old i only wanted to buy one more table saw so it was easier to justify the $4k, and i plan to keep this one forever.

No regrets!
Nick

Tim Thomas

08-20-2008, 8:45 AM

The thing that speaks to me in your original post is that you said you also want to get a dust collector and are concerned that you will have to wait on that if you blow your budget on the SawStop. To that end I would point out that a SawStop might save you from disfiguring your hands next week, but a good dust collection system might save you from dying of lung cancer in 20 years. It is easy to see the immediate safety benefit of the SawStop (which is an innovative and awe-inspiring tool) but more difficult to see the long-term and somewhat intangible benefit of having a good dust management system (which is mundane, boring and doesn't really scream "buy me!"). There are ways to work safely with a tablesaw that doesn't have an automatic brake, but I don't know of any way to work safely in a constantly dusty environment. Maybe a hazmat suit and respirator?

This is just a little devil's advocate post. I think you will get plenty of advice to buy the SawStop, and that is certainly a good way to go. It is a great tool and I doubt you would ever regret the purchase. But for me personally, if I needed a more powerful saw, a dust collector and a drum sander, I would take the $4500 budget and buy all three tools. Maybe the Rikon 10-110, an Oneida Dust Gorilla, and the best sander I could afford with the leftover cash. I don't think you would regret having a safer, cleaner and more efficient shop either. Whichever you choose, I think everyone can agree that your shop is soon going to be a much more enjoyable place to work with wood, and isn't that what it is all about?

(By the way, buy your wife some flowers today. She has earned them. :))

alex grams

08-20-2008, 9:06 AM

Tim, I run a decent dust collection setup at the moment. The DC would mainly to be to help with the mess of the dust everywhere in the garage. Whenever i run a sander or saw, I have a jet afs mounted on my ceiling that i run, and also will open up the garage and have a fan blowing to move the air out. Also, whenever i am doing any heavy sanding i wear a mask, so I am fairly happy with my regiment at the moment.

For my larger higher volume producing tools, I run a shop vac with a garbage can seperator. While this does the trick, I am going to make my vacuum have a short life. That is the main reason I want to get a decent dust collector, and to help on the table saw. though I will need a dC for the drum sander when that happens.

Thanks for the concern Tim, as SMC has always been good to point out the safety issues of a good DC system, but I don't view it as a critical item at the moment for my shop.

Jim Becker

08-20-2008, 9:23 AM

Tough one, Alex...I can see the appeal of the SS and always have. But then again, it wasn't for me...I went slider and have less than zero regrets on it. That said, if you don't do a true slider, than it's probably a good idea to go with the LOYL's recommendation for SS for a "North American" design saw. This goes beyond the tools and stuff and into the relationship thing where she obviously cares enough about you to suggest that particular tool and why.

Mark Singer

08-20-2008, 9:29 AM

I have the SS and it is very good! I love the safety and accuracy. I have 2 "dead on" sleds I made for crosscutting and that really works for furniture making. If you make a lot of cabinets from sheet goods, a slider is the way to go.

Greg Cole

08-20-2008, 10:10 AM

Hey Alex,
Here's another $0.02 donation... most likely will be long winded as usual.
I have had my eyes on a SS for 8-9 months for the safety of the blade brake (and it's a damn good saw across the board), as I've said many times now I had a run in with my jointer and a pinky in December 07. $3000.00 was the tally on said run in, granted medical insurance picked up the tab, but just sayin'. The more I read and learn about the Euro style sliders, the more they perk my interest over a North American Cabinet style. Safety & accuracy are there and some of the hobbiyst models aren't out the the realm of price in comparison to a SS.
Good DC is a must regardless. Way too many of us wait for the DC as one of the last additions to the shop... I use a 2 HP canister style and coulda woulda shoulda gone with a cyclone. The Phil Thien mod's to the DC have helped quite a bit, but it's still not the same as a true cyclone.
I was very, very close to buying an open ended drum sander awhile ago, either a 16/32 or 22/44 Performax. I would up sending my $ to LN & LV for some hand tools instead. Some love the sanders, some not so much and my luck would put me in the not so much camp (I don't tempt Lady Luck). If you go with a drum sander, I'd really lean towards a closed end style machine. I hate sanding, absolutely HATE IT. Project finishing prep (ie sanding) used to be drudgery & progressing through the grits is a waste of time IMO. A couple passes with a #4 & maybe a card scraper and move on versus 150 grit to 180 to 220... etc. I will wind up with a drum or belt sander eventually as I'm doing more shop made veneer. Which bring about the need for a vacuum bag system.....

Cheers.
Greg

Tim Thomas

08-20-2008, 10:21 AM

Thanks for the concern Tim, as SMC has always been good to point out the safety issues of a good DC system, but I don't view it as a critical item at the moment for my shop.

Well, if you currently have a dust collection system that is working for you, I would like to reverse my position and encourage you to get the SawStop. :D

Mike Heidrick

08-20-2008, 10:57 AM

I would get a real DC, even a HFDC or other sub $200 machine, while contemplating my saw purchase!

HFDC and 1 micron filters were the second tool I bought after my first TS. Seeing someone die from pulmonary fibrosis will change your life!

Charles P. Wright

08-20-2008, 11:03 AM

For my larger higher volume producing tools, I run a shop vac with a garbage can seperator. While this does the trick, I am going to make my vacuum have a short life. That is the main reason I want to get a decent dust collector, and to help on the table saw. though I will need a dC for the drum sander when that happens.
I would say not to worry about the short life of a shop vac, they are cheap enough to be almost disposable. Sure a good dust collector would be nice; but you might be surprised at how long the shop vac will last. Also, if you can afford a $4500 saw; there is a good chance that you can scrape together $200 for a DC if you need one later on.

Rick Gifford

08-20-2008, 11:16 AM

I bought the SawStop after going back and forth over cost and looking at other machines.

The money is spent and the sting is over. The saw is really solid and I enjoy using it. I checked the alignments and everything was dead on out of the crate. First time I didnt have to spend time tuning a tool like that.

I suspect the saw will last many many years.

Whatever you buy just make sure its one you drool over. We love our tools and hate working with junk!

Best of luck,

Prashun Patel

08-20-2008, 11:57 AM

Man, I'd kill to have a wife that WANTED me to drop $3k on a tool!

I urge you to keep it in perspective. The Sawstop is great, but it's not the only safe way to use a tablesaw. For a fraction of the price, you can get a well powered saw with a riving knife, and then purchase an aftermarket guard - with dust collection and still have a a bunch of $$ leftover for holddowns/pushblocks/grrrripper blocks/featherboards/crosscutting sleds/mitergauges.

I'm just saying there are other ways to be safe

alex grams

08-20-2008, 12:11 PM

The irony of replacing my ridgid TS is that my wife made the comment that i should have just gotten the SS in the first place.

I could only imagine my wife's reaction if (before she was fully aware of my woodworking affliction and that I could make her nice things) if I had told her I wanted to spend $4500 on a saw. She probably would still be laughing today...

Andy Pratt

08-20-2008, 12:30 PM

I would get the SS, you'll probably have many opportunities in the future to convince here of $1K purchases, but many fewer to get her to buy off on $4500 purchases.

Mike Henderson

08-20-2008, 1:41 PM

If you ever have a table saw accident, it'll cost you a lot more than a SawStop.

Get the SawStop and don't look back.

Mike

Cliff Rohrabacher

08-20-2008, 2:09 PM

For about the same $$ you can get a slider.
The way one uses a slider prevents exposure to the blade cause you do things like clamp the work and instead of holding it and use the slider for 90% of your rips.

Hank Knight

08-20-2008, 2:19 PM

If you don't get the SS now, you never will. I have a nice Unisaw I bought 7 or 8 years ago, before the SS came out. I'd love to have the SS, but I can't bring myself to get rid of my perfectly good Uni to make way for a SS. My bet is that if you buy a decent "interim" saw with the idea of replacing it with a SS later, you'll be using the interim saw 15 years from now - assuming you don't cut all your fingers off in the menatime.

steve reeves

08-20-2008, 2:39 PM

Setting aside all the "metaphors", if you use safe work practices your chances of being injured with a TS is about nil.

There is risk in everything you do everyday. obviously some risks are higher than others.

If you're the kind of woodworker who lets his mind wander while you're using a power tool then the saw stop is perfect for you. And that's not a knock on anyone.. some folks have difficulty staying focused on the small task at hand all the time, especially when they become so routine.

In my opinion there are ample ways of safely doing whatever you need doing on a table saw if you stay focused on the task at hand.

If the wife's 'permission" only extends to spending that amount of money on a "Sawstop" and you don't have issues with spending that large a sum of money OR you fit in the catagory of someone who from time to time allows their mind to wander then by all means buy it.

$4,500 will buy a better (not safer from a technical veiw) saw and most all the accessories you'd ever want...

The Sawstop is an excellent product from a safety standpoint. I think they're well overpriced.... and they have been known to "trip" with no apparent reason... that is a very expensive repair that puts your saw out of service for some time. For a hobby guy maybe that's no big deal.

For most purposes the saw you already have (unless it has issues that I'm not aware of) should be perfectly serviceable for years to come.

John Sanford

08-20-2008, 3:00 PM

The irony of replacing my ridgid TS is that my wife made the comment that i should have just gotten the SS in the first place.

Hmmm.... let's see here. Your wife is telling you to get the Sawstop now. She's telling you should have gotten it in the first place. And yet, some folks here are saying "get something else"! :rolleyes:

I just can't imagine for the life of me why some women think that men don't listen to them...

Used correctly, a circular saw velcroed to the bottom of a sagging sheet of plywood will be as safe as a FelderSS (not that such a beast exists, but if it did...). The point (from a safety perspective) to having a slider or a SS is for when we inadvertently (or deliberately) don't use the saw correctly, whether due to imperfect knowledge of the internal structure of the wood, temporary distraction, earthquake, etc. Some tools have a much wider range of "used incorrectly" (the aformentioned Velcro Sidewinder likely falls into this category), but ALL tools have such a range. The key here is your wife is keenly aware of the ability of the SS to minimize the risks SHE is recognizes, and those are the one's SHE wants minimized. You can fit a sliding table mechanism to a SawStop, but as of now you CANNOT fit a sawstop module to any of the sliding tablesaws.

If you DON'T get the saw that she's greenlighted, then you'll have more of a struggle getting her on board for major purchases in the future, and if you do somehow manage to injure yourself with ANY of the tools that you purchase with the "purloined" SawStop funds, you'll be in deep doo-doo. When she looks into the shop and sees you working on the SS, she'll know that you respected her opinions and concerns, and that will be a very good thing. Conversely, when she sees you feeding wood into the sander purchased with SS money, she'll be reminded that you DON'T RESPECT HER CONCERNS, and that will be a very bad thing.

In all probability, you'll be able to get the DC and sander down the road, and the DC (since it is a safety/cleanliness thing) isn't all that far down the road. But right now, you're at a fork in the road, and the important thing isn't which saw you choose, but who's opinions and concerns top your agenda. Its unlikely that whether you get a SawStop or a slider will make a significant difference in the final results of your projects.

Get the SawStop.

Glen Blanchard

08-20-2008, 3:31 PM

and they have been known to "trip" with no apparent reason... that is a very expensive repair that puts your saw out of service for some time.

I have never heard of a substantiated claim that a SS tripped for no reason. If a SS brake trips because the blade was tilted and just barely nicked an aluminum miter gauge fence, although to some may not be apparent, is not a trip for no reason.

As for a trip putting the saw out of service for some time??? I guess I don't get this. I have a back-up brake and back-up blade ready in the event of a trip. It might take 10 minutes to change out. Why would it put the saw out of service for some time?

Jason Whelehon

08-20-2008, 3:38 PM

If the brake trips it is pretty expensive since you have to replace the $60 brake cartrage and the $100 blade. It's NOT a lengthy process to replace the brake/blade tho.

My opinion is, if you have more money than you know what to do with go for it. If you're buying it because you think you'll be safer you've got no business using a table saw.

I understand using it at a school but not for average woodworkers.

Glen Blanchard

08-20-2008, 3:44 PM

If the brake trips it is pretty expensive since you have to replace the $60 brake cartrage and the $100 blade. It's NOT a lengthy process to replace the brake/blade tho.

There are too many other threads here asking the question, "So $160 is expensive? How much would it cost if it was your finger that caused the trip and you did not have the SS?".......so I won't beat that horse again. :p

If you're buying it because you think you'll be safer you've got no business using a table saw.

Huh ????????

Jason Whelehon

08-20-2008, 3:48 PM

I simply don't believe that the sawstop is "safer" than normal table saws. As a woodworker, you should NOT rely on these mechanisms to keep you safe. Paying attention, supporting work and proper alignment is much more important. I think that people who buy this saw have to make sure they're not relying on that feature and become complacent.

The most dangerous thing in a workshop is the operator.

Glen Blanchard

08-20-2008, 3:55 PM

I think that people who buy this saw have to make sure they're not relying on that feature and become complacent.

I agree with that 100% Jason, but you don't really think that happens do you? I mean, do you drive your car differently now that you have an airbag? The purpose of these kinds of things is not to allow us to act with wreckless abandon, but rather to minimize injury in the event of a "worse case" scenario. Dontcha think???

alex grams

08-20-2008, 4:06 PM

I agree with all of the comments on the safety factors of the saw. I've seen injuries and have members of my family with scars and missing fingers from years in cabinet shops. Safety features are there to help protect the operator when they do something wrong. They aren't there to make operation a mindless act.

Sawstop always seems to be a can of worms when it gets mentioned around here, but all of the input is appreciated.

chris dub

08-20-2008, 4:44 PM

As a hobbyist I would personally rather spend the extra money and be safe for the long term than save a little on the saw and be a little bit more convenienced with other tools. You can edge joint without an 8" jointer. You can plane with a 13" planer vs. a 15". Those things are nice and convenient, but you can work without them. Heck you can even get a portable dust collector and move it from tool to tool with a 1 micron bag. But not cutting off a finger or two if you accidently encounter a spinning blade is not something you can work around.

If you can afford it, and you and your wife agree on that fact. You will both be more comfortable with the many hours you will likely dedicate to your new craft if you have the protection. I am focused more on safety since I got married a year ago. And mind you I can be quite thrifty... And I expect to make WW a life time Endeavour. And when I have the space and cash I will probably have the same decision and get a SS or whatever brand it is when I have the cash.

Chris Kennedy

08-20-2008, 6:57 PM

I think you are in the opposite of the rock and hard place situation. Both sides look really good to me.

I can understand your position -- 4.5K is a lot to drop. I can't imagine dropping that kind of money on a tool (I don't own a SawStop), but it may help to think of it as an investment. It is a quality tool; it should last a lifetime; and lastly, it provides the LOYL with some peace of mind. That shouldn't be overlooked.

If you still are balking at the money, I would echo what some others have suggested. Look into a serious aftermarket guard (Excalibur, Exactor, etc.) which may serve to assuage the LOYL as well and is cheaper.

By the way, if you are hobbyist, I would argue against being swayed by the all too common argument that appears against the SawStop that you simply need to be attentive enough and follow good protocols and the risk of injury is almost nil. All of those things are of paramount importance, but you have safety equipment to protect you from those events you simply cannot control or foresee (my examples: a bird flew into my shop once, and on another occasion, a tree branch fell on my shop, knocking things off the walls). As the old adage goes -- you can never be too careful.

Cheers,

Chris

Joe Mioux

08-20-2008, 8:37 PM

I own a SawStop. When I was upgrading the decision was between a slider, a SS or a Powermatic 2000.

After looking at the SS and the Powermatic side by side AND eliminating the Brake feature on the SS. I would still choose the SawStop.

Everything about this saw is well designed.

Actually the brake system adds only about $600 to the cost of the saw. Its the other stuff that makes this saw a good value and a joy to own.

It's the machining, its the door's micro switches, its the measuring tape on both sides of the blade (yea I know that is a bit lame, but it is still a nice feature), its the hydraulic lift mobility system (really cool), It's the packaging system (the little tilt indicators on the outside of the shipping boxes that insures the saw has remained upright through out it delivery to you).

It's the way the blade raises/lowers/pivots. Its the way that the ZC insert screws to the table.

For those of you who don't own one or have never really inspected this saw close up and in detail, you don't know what you are missing.

they make really really good saws and the brake system and riving knife is just a part of the saw, its not the only reason you should consider this saw.

Joe

Jason Whelehon

08-20-2008, 11:23 PM

I agree with that 100% Jason, but you don't really think that happens do you? I mean, do you drive your car differently now that you have an airbag? The purpose of these kinds of things is not to allow us to act with wreckless abandon, but rather to minimize injury in the event of a "worse case" scenario. Dontcha think???

Comparing cars to tablesaws don't work because there are 1000's of other variables. But I like the path you're on. I'll say SRS' in cars was a necessity to save lives not limbs. Stability control in SUV's was to prevent people who drive top heavy SUV's like cars from rolling over. That's a safety feature comparable to the sawstop function.

It's the machining, its the door's micro switches, its the measuring tape on both sides of the blade (yea I know that is a bit lame, but it is still a nice feature), its the hydraulic lift mobility system (really cool), It's the packaging system (the little tilt indicators on the outside of the shipping boxes that insures the saw has remained upright through out it delivery to you).

It's the way the blade raises/lowers/pivots. Its the way that the ZC insert screws to the table.

For those of you who don't own one or have never really inspected this saw close up and in detail, you don't know what you are missing.

they make really really good saws and the brake system and riving knife is just a part of the saw, its not the only reason you should consider this saw.

Joe

The riving knife is the true safety feature on this saw since you can't control the wood pinching. However, you can control yourself and should NEVER grow complacent with that tool.

I've used one many times at the Woodcraft I work at and it's certainly a fine saw with all the bells and whistles you'd expect at $5,000. The OP was asking if his money would be better spent on other tools as opposed to just one tool.

My simple answer is "yes" because the $1500+ you spend extra on a SS as compared to a Steel City or PM2000 is a good chunk of change IMHO.

If I had no spending constraints (within reason) I'd certainly have a sawstop in my shop. Why NOT buy it if you have the money for it? I think where the OP was getting at wasn't should he get it and he has the money, it was, would that money be better spent elsewhere.

Dave Lehnert

08-20-2008, 11:40 PM

Vic Damone

08-21-2008, 1:39 AM

My opinion is, if you have more money than you know what to do with go for it. If you're buying it because you think you'll be safer you've got no business using a table saw.

Chimericaly witty.

Vic

Matt Robinette

08-21-2008, 1:53 AM

I upgraded to a cabinet from a contractors saw about ten years ago and if I had to do it again now I would more than likely buy a ez power bench or a festool fmt. I know that the ss is a excellent saw and amputation is a non issue with the brake but kickback is still a problem. The new system tools can handle large and small cuts that I don't feel comfortable making on a big saw. Just my $.02 .

Glen Blanchard

08-21-2008, 8:20 AM

Comparing cars to tablesaws don't work because there are 1000's of other variables. But I like the path you're on. I'll say SRS' in cars was a necessity to save lives not limbs. Stability control in SUV's was to prevent people who drive top heavy SUV's like cars from rolling over. That's a safety feature comparable to the sawstop function.

I was not really trying to draw that comparison, but rather I attempted to point out how another commonly used piece of machinery (read car) is not used in a more reckless manner (than it was previously) by its owner just because it now has some type of safety device. Additionally, I submit to you that SS owners, by virtue of the fact that they all are safety conscious to begin with, do in fact not alter the manner in which they use the table saw one iota.

Wilbur Pan

08-21-2008, 9:04 AM

But I have a difficult time also justifying a $5,000 saw.

You don't have to justify the money. Your wife has already done it for you. As good as I think I am with a budget, I know that if my wife green lights a purchase for my shop, she already has figured out that we really can afford it. ;)

Joe Mioux

08-21-2008, 9:10 AM

I've used one many times at the Woodcraft I work at and it's certainly a fine saw with all the bells and whistles you'd expect at $5,000. The OP was asking if his money would be better spent on other tools as opposed to just one tool.

My simple answer is "yes" because the $1500+ you spend extra on a SS as compared to a Steel City or PM2000 is a good chunk of change IMHO.

If I had no spending constraints (within reason) I'd certainly have a sawstop in my shop. Why NOT buy it if you have the money for it? I think where the OP was getting at wasn't should he get it and he has the money, it was, would that money be better spent elsewhere.

after 32 or so posts a person sometimes loses focus of the orginal question. ;)

Also for those that say its a waste of money and that one should just be more attentive in lieu of owning a SS, I disagree.

The saw's brake is an insurance policy not a reason to be less careful.

It's analogous to my car insurance, homeowners insurance and health insurance. I buy those insurance policies hoping never to need their use, but they are there if I need them. None of those insurance policies will motivate me to be less carefull with my car, home or health.

If the question is how best to spend $5000 and remain safe, then go all hand tools, but i don't think that is exactly the answer to the OP's question.

Again, the brake is only one component that makes this saw desirable, not the only.

Mike Wilkins

08-21-2008, 9:23 AM

Personal opinion only here. I have read the info and testimonials for the Sawstop, and I agree with them all. However, I still feel that safety is about what is between the ears. If an operation does not feel or look safe, don't do it, period. Find another method.
I am looking to get a sliding tablesaw in the future to replace my current 1964-era Rockwell/Delta Unisaw. This is not a bad machine, but in my eyes it has its limitations.
With a slider, your hands should be nowhere near the blade. I have performed operations with the saw that had my digits less than 2 inches from the blade.
Talk about increasing the pucker factor. I have added sleds and use push sticks to minimize the injury potential, but not having my pinkie near a spinning piece of sharp metal would really ease my mind.
Like I said, just my .02 worth.

Daniel Heine

08-21-2008, 10:01 AM

One option you might want to consider is SawStop's new contractors saw. Woodcraft had them in stock when I last visited, and they appeared to be the same level of quality as the cabinet saw. Take a look here:

http://www.hermance.com/sawstop-contractors.asp

I do not know what the price is, but I'm told it is about 1/2 the cost of the cabinet saw.

Good Luck,
Dan

Ron Knapp

08-21-2008, 11:13 AM

Glen Blanchard

08-21-2008, 11:21 AM

The $4500 price seems high. My local dealer has a 3hp, with 52" fence, Saw stop mobile base for around $3700. My friend bought a 5hp 52" fence without a mobile base and he was in the mid $3000 range. I would check the price with a couple of other dealers.

Ron,

Actually SS prices are fixed, and do not vary from one retailer to the next. Differences in pricing are a factor of varying the fence, h.p. of motor, etc. An apples to apples comparison should yield identical pricing.

Rick Fisher

08-21-2008, 11:29 AM

Im waiting for SawStop to come out with a slider. :)

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/shop028.jpg

This was my first "accident" on a table saw, ever. My saw is 6 - 7 years old and this happened a few months ago.

TOTAL operator error. I have a little scar now. It was 100 degrees in the shop and I had been out there for 5 hours.

Until that happened, I was pretty confident.

It was a weird one. Hand passed over top of the blade due to a harsh kickback. Fatigue and dehydration played a factor. Im always carefull.

Thinking about it now, I got pretty lucky. Could have been, and was more likely to be a brutal accident. The really, really goofy part is that I tend to hold my pinky like a British lady drinking tea. An old sports injury gave me this stupid habit. Im guessing that it would be gone now if I didnt :)

What is most shocking is that I have no real recollection of this happening. Just a loud bang, less than 1/10th of a second ..

Joe Jensen

08-21-2008, 11:46 AM

Dan Lautner

08-21-2008, 11:52 AM

After looking at both saws side by side it became very clear the General is a better made saw. The General 350/650 w riving knife is the only cabinet saw I would buy today. The seasoned meehanite iron table top and extensions are dead flat and will stay that way. The Baldor motor is superior to the cheap asian motors on the imports. The saw is built to a higher level than the asian saws including the 4.5k plus SawStop. Go look closely at both saws and I think
you will go home with the General.

If I was doing mostly cabinets with sheet goods I would look at a slider if
I had the floor area.

Dan

Brian Smith3

08-21-2008, 1:47 PM

Well it seems pretty easy decision to me. If your wife says she thinks it would be better if you use the Saw Stop you should get a Saw Stop. If it were a poorly built saw then I think there may be a reason for you to pause but it's well built so that's a non issue, so all that's left is that SHE will feel better about your safety with your projects if you get it. If she's serious about it then it's a done deal.

As a hypothetical, if you saw your wife sewing and you told her "I don't care what it costs I think you should get one of those machines that won't puncture your hand, I've seen too many puncture injuries with sewing machines." Then say she didn't buy one because she wanted to spend the money on material or whatever. Now she punctures her hand....what would you do, and how would you feel about her injury?

Kelly Mulheren

08-21-2008, 1:52 PM

I'll jump into the discussion here. I just purchased the SawStop Contractor saw this past weekend at WoodCraft in Richmond, VA. Bought the 36" fence system and mobile base to boot. With sales tax, right around $2000. Will soon add the 8" dado cartridge and zero clearance insert soon, which will add around $100.

I'm a weekend warrior so this was a bit of a stretch for me. But, as many have said elsewhere, you only feel this pain once. My pucker factor did rise when the salesman rang up the total. But I'm over the sticker shock now and have no regrets. I've hassled for over 30 years with the Craftsman 10" TS I bought when I was 19. Decided to go for the best in quality and safety that was within, er, a bit over, my price range.

To my hobbyist eyes, the fit and finish are phenomenal. The installation and owner's guides are exceptional. You can go to sawstop.com and download a pdf version of the manual. The hardware came in color-coded and numbered packs. No digging into a grab bag of oily parts and trying to guess what goes where. And there were large posters (say 18" by 24") with installation instructions. I appreciated the large print :-) The saw and fence system went together in several hours without a single hitch. Runs and cuts "like buttah".

The stamped extension wings seemed surprisingly flimsy at first, but they straightened out and firmed up following the installation of the fence system. I did remove the anti-kickback pawls from the blade guard mechanism as they tend to get caught when raising and lowering the blade, especially with the insert removed. And they left scratch marks on the stock...I'm not partial to pin-striped wood but it could be a "feature" it you are :-) Since I usually use a cutoff sled rather than miter gage, I'll probably just leave the riving knife on most of the time. But switching from the riving knife to the guard mechanism takes no more than 15 seconds.

I looked at, at read reviews of, a bunch of other contractor and hybrid saws and decided that the superior quality and added safety were worth the incremental cost.

So, yes, the initial cost is steep. But I can rest assured that it will give me years of pleasurable service, paying for itself many times over, with the safety factor to boot. I'd do it again in the time it takes for a kickback to occur.

Regards,
Kelly

P.S. Now that I've read all of the testimonials and taken the plunge, I'm wondering if there are any stories about situations where the brake system did not fire?

John Schreiber

08-21-2008, 2:52 PM

This was my first "accident" on a table saw, ever. My saw is 6 - 7 years old and this happened a few months ago.
Rick, I'm glad your injury was so small.

Just to clarify, did this happen with a SawStop? I didn't think they had been out for that long.

Alan Schwabacher

08-21-2008, 3:30 PM

The Sawstop is a great saw. Yes there are other good saws, and opinions differ on what the Sawstop features are worth. Your wife thinks they are worth a lot, and so do I.

Look at this from your wife's point of view: she will be uncomfortable every time you use your saw, unless you either buy the Sawstop or actually convince her that whatever you get is just as safe. Do you want to put her through that? You can use any saw safely or unsafely, but that does not mean that a Sawstop is not safer than other cabinet saws. It is safer.

It costs a fair amount, but your wife gets peace of mind, and you get a saw that is at worst the best American-style cabinet saw made. What if she wants to give the saw a try? She may also be thinking of kids using the saw in the future.

I'm not sure what kind of advice you want from us. Some people think it's the only sensible choice, others think it's not worth the extra $, and some are religiously opposed. We don't know if your wife offers more unsolicited advice than you'd like, but this piece is sound IMO. What do you think?

Kelly Mulheren

08-21-2008, 3:30 PM

One other gotcha I've experienced with the SawStop Contractor saw is that, when cutting a miter, the blade guard is so narrow (to allow it to be used for narrow rip cuts) that is was pushed sideways into the blade. Might be a problem with mitering with any narrow-profile saw guard. I don't have the experience to say. It's not conductive so the cartridge did not fire. But my brand new saw already has a scratch on the blade guard. :eek:

FWIW,
Kelly

Loren Hedahl

08-21-2008, 11:19 PM

What's the chance that technology is advancing so rapidly that a better system will soon come out that will eclipse the Saw Stop?

I know. It's hard to imagine today what that might be, but I'd bet it will come about sooner than one might think.

So I doubt those that are buying their SS's today are buying their last table saw, especially if safety is the #1 characteristic they demand in their saw.

My method of reducing my susceptibility to table saw accidents is to use the table saw less. I've gotten to the point that I use one only for long rip cuts. For small pieces or for ripping thick wood, a band saw is my choice. Cross cutting is done either on a miter saw or radial arm saw or guided circular saw. Sheet goods are always done with a guided circular saw.

I'm glad that each member can state his opinion on this and other matters in a such a civil manner on this forum.

Rick Fisher

08-21-2008, 11:30 PM

Oh, Im sorry. No it didnt happen on a Saw Stop. Thats why I said I am waiting for them to come out with a Slider.. :)

It happened on a 5hp Shop Fox Cabinet Saw. Not that the HP. matters. It was an idiot mistake.

One side of my brain wants a slider, the other side knows I should buy a Saw Stop. So Im stuck. The only solution is a Saw stop, slider. :)

Don Bullock

08-22-2008, 12:05 AM

I was excited when the LOML told me to buy a SawStop. Neither of us has regretted that decision and we've found money for many other major tools as well. Yes, it's expensive, but you only have one life to live.

Bill Jepson

08-26-2008, 7:56 PM

The Saw Stop is the best designed table saw I've ever been able to look INSIDE of. There was a lot of thought that went into the design. There are several features that are better than I have seen on ANY saw I have looked over. I am a mechanical engineer by trade, and love to see a well done and innovative mechanism. The SawStop is a well designed saw and on par with ANYTHING I've seen reguardless of price and that is WITHOUT THE BRAKE. I've seen a Canadian made General. The sliders are nice as are the combo machines, but they are not better saws than the SawStop... period. Add the safety of the brake and the approval of the wife and this thing is a total no-brainer. The SawStop will be my next TS, though I am using a Rigid contractor saw now. The Rigid offers great bang-for-the-buck and once dialed in is a good saw but having used the SawStop at my local Woodcraft I reek with jel toward the SawStop owners! BUY IT.
Bill Jepson

Mike Heidrick

08-26-2008, 8:19 PM

I've seen a Canadian made General and if anybody thinks it is a better built saw I'd like to check what they have been smoking. Bill Jepson

+1

I saw the ALL the Generals last week and several from other manuf. as well.

The comment that the 650 is better built or more heavily built is simply untrue. You can argue the Baldor being better and I will agree.

Don L Johnson

08-26-2008, 9:18 PM

I, too, have enjoyed reading the above posts. I'm about ready to purchase the SS. Like someone mentioned up front, for a bit more, get the 5 hp. Probably never need it, but it's there and will never leave you looking back and wishing you woulda. The real purpose of this post is that it seems like I read somewhere that there is a pending price increase, I think around the first of October. Secondly, as also stated above, the price is fixed by SS. I know a Woodcraft store owner, and he onetime mentioned that SS would allow a discount if the store were to sell the demo saw that most stores originally got. That might be an option to have your cake and eat it too...ie, some additonal monies left over for the DC. Good Luck.

Per Swenson

08-26-2008, 9:20 PM

Don Bullock

08-26-2008, 10:04 PM

... The real purpose of this post is that it seems like I read somewhere that there is a pending price increase, I think around the first of October. ...

Check out this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=90733

Simon Dupay

08-27-2008, 12:57 AM

Sawstop owner. I agree with Mike.

I have said it before, gonna say it again.

There is a better built North American style table saw available.

No safety features. 13 thousand clams for the basic.
Up to 35 thousand will all the features.
We will stick with our #2 Sawstop.
Of course if you need #1, by all means, give Northfield a call.
Per
Actually the Northfield as good of guards as any euro saw
and I have to disagree about the saw stop being #2 I would put the Unisaw,PM66, and General 350/650 before the saw stop, the saw stop is still a Taiwanese made saw and I've never used a machine that's broken down more times then a saw stop.

Ben Rafael

08-27-2008, 11:27 AM

Actually the Northfield as good of guards as any euro saw
and I have to disagree about the saw stop being #2 I would put the Unisaw,PM66, and General 350/650 before the saw stop, the saw stop is still a Taiwanese made saw and I've never used a machine that's broken down more times then a saw stop.

What broke down on the sawstop?

Simon Dupay

08-27-2008, 9:49 PM

What broke down on the sawstop?
What didn't break would a better Question; belts, motor, trunnion, bearings, and the blade raising gear.

alex grams

08-27-2008, 10:12 PM

Seems like an anomaly you would have so many problems Simon. Was SS very helpful in resolving any of them?

Glenn Clabo

08-28-2008, 6:39 AM

Folks... For some reason a Sawstop question drags out the worst in people. There is a difference between commenting on the OP's original question and putting down others opinions. Inflammatory comments in an attempt to "win" an argument is uncalled for and will be deleted without explanation.

Bill Jepson

08-28-2008, 4:01 PM

What didn't break would a better Question; belts, motor, trunnion, bearings, and the blade raising gear.

Simon, Being civil as was suggested, yours seems a singular experience. Per Swenson is a full time pro and his SawStop probably sees 200% of the use that we duffer hobbiest types and has no complaints. If your saw is actually breaking down, and I'm not even trying to say that it couldn't happen, passing along your circumstances would be a big help to the rest of us. For example, are you a professional user? Is the saw used only by you, or is it a shop saw? IF a shop saw then others might be abusing the machine when you aren't there. Speaking as an engineer if you are breaking the trunion bearings in the SawStop most other machines would have given up too. Please note I don't currently own a SawStop or work for them so what I'm telling you is my own unsolicited opinion. Most owners have also reported excellent customer service. Has your experience been different? I would like to know before I buy one.
Bill Jepson

Ben Rafael

08-28-2008, 6:30 PM

Everything can have a lemon. But the only complaint I've ever heard(until Simon's) about sawstop is the price. Sounds like he might have gotten one that fell off the truck.

Simon Dupay

08-28-2008, 8:59 PM

Well, the saw is one at work BUT others might not have problems until after their warranty is gone, just my opinion. To saw stop's credit they took care of my boss very well but in my opinion the best CS is not needing to use CS. And sorry if i offended anyone I was just expressing my experience with the saw.

Robert Dodd

09-06-2008, 8:28 AM

The inventors of the saw have provided the woodworking community with one of the most amazing advances in safety ever introduced into the woodworking. I will be surprised if all professional woodshops that have employees don’t have Sawstop type saws within five years; worker compensation insurance will be higher or prohibitive for shops without this automatic safety feature on their saws.

As for self-employed and hobbyist woodworkers, the decision will be much harder due to the price of admission. I know for me it became clear two weeks ago when I caught my left hand in my Jet cabinet saw. I have been a serious woodworker for over thirty years and never have experienced any serious injuries. I always have used guards and have been acutely aware of the risk because I am an injury prevention research epidemiologist. Tiredness, inattention, and a kicked up blade guard at the end of a cut all combined to provide me the window for a potentially devastating injury. I was done cutting and moving to shut off the saw.

I did a lot of damage to my hand. The violence and shock of the impact is indescribable. I don’t wish that on anyone. Finger amputation was the planned course of action as I went into surgery. I lucked out, they didn’t amputate and believe I will keep my fingers and they should work when healed. I am also lucky because I live 30 minutes from one of the best hand surgery centers in the country. As they say, time is tissue and the time between my injury and surgery was minimal. A word to the wise, have a plan and know where to go if you ever have one of these injuries. It can make all the difference. Finally, I am very lucky because I have excellent health insurance. This will be an expensive injury.

So, as I type this rant with one heavily bandaged hand with pins and metal holding two fingers together I have already decided to purchase the Sawstop. I am off this morning to place my order before the announced price increases. Not too tough of a decision since I love woodworking and am pleased to have an option to help minimize the risks associated all but inevitable lapses in attention that can open up the injury risk window.

My mistake can be called stupid but I would rather call it preventable. I will have a lot of time to think about it as I go through weeks of healing followed by physical therapy. Trust me, the extra cost is worth the reduced risk.

Jason White

09-06-2008, 8:47 AM

I hate to be the one to ask, but why are you wanting to replace the RIDGID? It's a terrific saw and has the same heft and many better features than some of the cabinet saws out there. I got rid of my steel stand and put it on a wood cabinet with casters both to get it up higher and improve the dust collection. It's also easy to wheel around and has storage to boot. To me, it feels as solid as a cabinet saw.

For what it's worth -- keep the RIDGID for now and get all the other tools you need. Then start thinking about a cab saw (that's what I'm doing).

JW

The irony of replacing my ridgid TS is that my wife made the comment that i should have just gotten the SS in the first place.

I could only imagine my wife's reaction if (before she was fully aware of my woodworking affliction and that I could make her nice things) if I had told her I wanted to spend $4500 on a saw. She probably would still be laughing today...

Dennis Meek

09-06-2008, 11:05 AM

Alex

Not to beat a dead horse but was wondering if you have ordered the SawStop. Last year I found an item on Craigs list that I wanted and my wife traveled with me to pick it up. While at the seller's home he said the he had just purchased the SS and gave my wife and I a demonstration on its features. He bought it because he was an airline pilot and it was cheap insurance that would hopefully keep him flying if he had an accident while using the saw.

On our way home my wife said that we needed to order a SS. No questions were asked by me and a week later it was sitting in my shop.

It was a burden on our budget but I have never regretted the purchase. I just retired after 31 years of teaching and I know that it was an excellent investment for me. She is a beauty!

Dennis