Combo Machines - Why Are We Being Ripped?

[Mike Shields]

I, like some others, often seek the justification for new tool purchases. The new jointer/planer combo machines with their higher capacities is tempting.

However, I cannot get over the price! I mean, we're talking about a machine that shares the same base, same motor, and same cutter head.

Also, if when looking closely at the specs of say a 12" unit, I'd be hard convinced to buy a combo over singles:

1. Combo table size: 55 inches
jointer only: 83 inches

2. Combo weight: 500 lbs
jointer only: 1000 lbs

3. Combo fence: extruded aluminum
jointer only: cast iron

4. Combo price: anywhere from $2000 - 2700
jointer only: $1500

These are just a few things off the top of my head.

So, what are the reasons for considering a j/p combo? Is it only space?

IMO, manufacturers have not benefited the consumer by producing a product where quality is lower and the price is high, especially when components are being shared.

Any thoughts?

[Frank Drew]

I haven't really looked at all the models available, but some of the combos are quite heavy-duty (and suitably priced), aren't they? I'm thinking more the European machines than the Asian.

[Mike Shields]

I haven't really looked at all the models available, but some of the combos are quite heavy-duty (and suitably priced), aren't they? I'm thinking more the European machines than the Asian.

I'm looking at the Asian, as the price I mentioned is way to low for a Euro, by about 50%.

The average woodworker, I would think, cannot consider those because of the high cost.

[Philip Berman]

Several years ago I made the switch from a Jet jointer and a Jet planer to a Hammer J/P. The move was primarily for space-saving reasons, but along the way I discovered that the quality of the machine, and hence the adjustability and the need to re-adjust, was better. On my machine, which I purchased used, I gained greater horsepower, throw-away knives that self-align, smaller footprint in the shop, and I no longer have to move machines to use them. The inconvenience of changing over from one function to the other is minimal, and shuffling the two separate machines around actually used up more time. Finally, you end up with a jointer which is probably wider than you'd ever purchase alone, which is great since sometimes you will find 12" wide boards. While that by itself doesn't justify the additional cost, taken together with the other things I mentioned does, in my opinion.

[Don Bullock]

Mike, I've been wondering the same thing. Perhaps floor space in the biggest reason for a combo machine, but I don't find that my separate jointer and planer take up all that much space. The only other draw for the combo machines of jointing width. Those who use the joiner on the faces of boards like the added width. For someone like me who doesn't have access to lumber mills this is a mute point. Most hardwood available for me is already faced on both sides. True, there are those who argue that quality is the issue since most of the combo machines are made in Europe, not Asia. Maybe that's a valid reason. I've never looked that close at one to see. The bottom line here. however, is that we have more choice in woodworking machines than ever which is fantastic.

[Nathan Conner]

So, what are the reasons for considering a j/p combo? Is it only space?

IMO, manufacturers have not benefited the consumer by producing a product where quality is lower and the price is high, especially when components are being shared.

Hey, Mike. Just off the top of my head, a few things to consider aside from space:

1) The cost of a 12" jointer, even if it's heavier and of a better quality, approaches that of the lower end combo J/P machines. So, if it's a choice between a pair of machines and a single one, I'll take the single. Granted, you give up some planing capability, but it's a trade-off.

2) Maintenance: There's only one set of knives, one motor, one belt. If you have issues, of course, you'll have TWO machines go down, but it's cheaper to maintain the knives, for instance, on one machine than two. Wiring - one spot. DC - one spot.

3) I have to come back to space - I think space is a REALLY big consideration. I think I'm somewhere around 600 SF in my shop, and after replacing the 20" PM planer and the 6" jointer with the Jet J/P combo on a mobile base, I find that the room savings is considerable. It's nice to not have a "work triangle" so much as a "work line". Since jointing and planing are so common to each other, it's great to stay at one machine and get it all done instead of lugging stuff to another location in the shop. (I know, it's only 10 feet, but...)

I agree that the quality doesn't seem as high, it's not as heavy, but it's plenty good for me. I have no issues with table length or the fence material, and have really enjoyed having the 12" jointer for less than the cost of a 20" + 6".

I guess it's always a trade-off. I don't regret this purchase for a minute, even though the first purchase (the 20" PM planer) did cause me lots of headaches, but that's another thread. I couldn't be happier, and would recommend this combo to anyone thinking about it without hesitation.

Am I getting ripped? Naah. Jet/Grizz seem to have made a neat, innovative product that's affordable. As long as it's not too limited, I'll bite. If they made a good combo machine with J/P/TS/CMS/Shaper for under $4500, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

[scott spencer]

I'd guess that space is one of the primary motivators. Some reasons for higher cost are European manufacture and lower volumes.

[Dick Sylvan]

I, like some others, often seek the justification for new tool purchases. The new jointer/planer combo machines with their higher capacities is tempting.

However, I cannot get over the price! I mean, we're talking about a machine that shares the same base, same motor, and same cutter head.

Also, if when looking closely at the specs of say a 12" unit, I'd be hard convinced to buy a combo over singles:

1. Combo table size: 55 inches
jointer only: 83 inches

2. Combo weight: 500 lbs
jointer only: 1000 lbs

3. Combo fence: extruded aluminum
jointer only: cast iron

4. Combo price: anywhere from $2000 - 2700
jointer only: $1500

These are just a few things off the top of my head.

So, what are the reasons for considering a j/p combo? Is it only space?

IMO, manufacturers have not benefited the consumer by producing a product where quality is lower and the price is high, especially when components are being shared.

Any thoughts?

Yes, several. My comments are based on my experience with a Hammer C3 31

1."quality is lower" Not true in any respect that I can tell, in fact I would say it is just the opposite.

2.Bed length - The first board that I had to joint and plane was 8-1/2 feet long. No problem.

3. Aluminum fence - And your point is? The Boeing 777 is made from aluminum not cast iron and it is pretty strong. Sarcasm aside, the aluminum extrusions are the heftiest pieces of aluminum that I have personally dealt with. I just bought a new MM16 which comes with a cast iron fence and I was disapointed that it wasn't extruded aluminum.

4. Weight - plenty heavy enough for me.

5 Price - My wife drives a Lexus ES, my best friend a Lexus LS. Is one worth more than twice as much as the other? My friend thinks so. On the Hammer, I think so, too.

[Rick Fisher]

I have a friend with a full sized Felder combination machine. I think it was over $20,000.00

The quality is outstanding. I personally dont like the idea of combination machines, but if space is an issue, its a great solution.

The Felder/ Hammer stuff is expensive. Nice things cost money.

[Jim Becker]

Speaking just about say a 12" combo, if you compare the purchase cost of separates of similar capacities, power, etc. (keeping portable planers out of the mix), the value of the combo is generally pretty clear in addition to the space considerations. I agree with Dick relative to materials...it's not what is used, but how it's used. My Euro J/P combo and my Euro slider both have extruded aluminum fences, for example. (As does the excellent UniFence)

I'm very pleased with my own J/P combo and it made it possible for me to have the wide jointer that I wanted and still have room to assembly my projects.

[John Schreiber]

I think Mike makes a good point. The cost of the motor, switches and cutterhead is shared between both machines. The cost should be closer to 2/3rds of a similar quality jointer & planer separately.

I can think of a couple of reasons why they are not cheaper. They are more complex and must maintain alignment while they are moved all around. The development costs of traditional equipment is nearly a century old. They can charge more because people will pay a premium for space saving equipment.

I am especially bothered by the lack of mass and the shortness of the beds in the combo machines. If the short beds aren't a problem, why is bed length such a marketing factor for jointers.

[Jamie Buxton]

"Ripped"? You have a choice. You can do business with these folks, or not.

If you buy their product, you've agreed that the price is one you're willing to pay, so you can't claim to be ripped off. If you don't buy their product, you also can't claim you've been ripped off.

[Curt Harms]

"Ripped"? You have a choice. You can do business with these folks, or not.

If you buy their product, you've agreed that the price is one you're willing to pay, so you can't claim to be ripped off. If you don't buy their product, you also can't claim you've been ripped off.

There is no absolute "this is worth it, this is not" in most things. If there were, there'd only be one automobile company, one computer company etc. Everbody makes their own value choices.

[Wilbur Pan]

I have a 10" combo jointer/planer made by Rikon, unfortunately no longer available in the U.S. In the U.K. and Europe, every manufacturer makes one or more of these machines, and they sell very well. There's even a Dewalt 10" jointer/planer combo. I don't believe that the quality of woodworking is particularly worse on the other side of the pond, so it looks like they work well, too.

Regarding your comparative points:


1. Combo table size: 55 inches
jointer only: 83 inches

Table length is overrated. There's a rule of thumb that you can joint a board twice the length of your jointer table, which allows you to joint boards over 8 1/2 feet long. That's long enough for the vast majority of projects. If you really need extra length, you can always rig up an infeed/outfeed table.


2. Combo weight: 500 lbs
jointer only: 1000 lbs

Weight sure helps with stability, but my 10" J/P combo is much lighter than 500 lbs, and I have it on a mobile stand. I once jointed boards with the stand in the mobile position, and didn't even know it.


3. Combo fence: extruded aluminum
jointer only: cast iron

How well a fence works depends on much more than the fence material. The locking mechanism is much more important.


4. Combo price: anywhere from $2000 - 2700
jointer only: $1500

You get a jointer and planer with the combo machine, so you really should compare a combo machine with the price of the two separate machines together.


I think Mike makes a good point. The cost of the motor, switches and cutterhead is shared between both machines. The cost should be closer to 2/3rds of a similar quality jointer & planer separately.

That would only be true if you could go into any machinery dealer and say, "I'm buying a jointer and planer together. Sell them to me for 33% off."


I am especially bothered by the lack of mass and the shortness of the beds in the combo machines. If the short beds aren't a problem, why is bed length such a marketing factor for jointers.

Because you can market bed length, even if it may not be a real factor in how much it would improve your woodworking. As I said above, if you are regularly processing boards longer than 8 1/2 feet, a combo machine may not be for you. But I can't picture many projects that would require that, in which case the extra bed length would be wasted capacity, like equipping a scroll saw with a 2 HP motor. Even long dining room tables typically top out at 96".

The real advantage of the combo units are space, of course, but more importantly, they get you wide jointing capacity inexpensively. For $650, I now have the ability to joint a 10" wide board. Even more importantly, I have the room to skew a difficult to joint board, whereas I would not be able to do that with a narrower jointer.

[Al Willits]

Not sure, but the add for the Hammer I seen said about 8 grand, how can you compare that to a under 3 grand unit???

Lets compare equally priced units maybe??

That price being close, I'd think room would be the deciding factor, not quaility.

Al

[glenn bradley]

My planer is fine construction-wise as a planer. My jointer is fine construction-wise as a jointer. Neither of them would tolerate the other on their back while trying to do their job. Combo's are quite a bit heavier than the individual tools of like caliber. Add to that the fact that many jointers and planers are designs that have proven themselves for years with small variations. Quite a different thing than bringing a new machine online. Someone has to pay for that R&D ;-)

[Dick Sylvan]

Not sure, but the add for the Hammer I seen said about 8 grand, how can you compare that to a under 3 grand unit???
Al
The j/p unit is around 4K, not 8K. Where have you seen these ads?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

You are not being ripped off. It is just the same old thing come round again.

A good combo machine requires substantial additional engineering and machining to make 'em work right.

And like so many other things you really do get what you pay for. If you have been looking at machines made in Asia, I suggest that you walk away no matter how much you might otherwise trust the label that gets put on it.

If you want a combo get a Felder a Hammer or a MM.

As it regards most all consumer products that are physically manufactured from conventional materials such as wood or steel The label “Made in [Asia] is still synonymous with bad cheap shoddy work.

It is too bad too because Taiwan and Japan are fully capable of producing superior products. And in fact they do make superior products. Their machine shop tools are superb. As long ago as the 1970s I have run Okuma and Mori Seiki machining centers that were the rival of anything made elsewhere - often better. I had an Okuma lathe that was far better than the best tool room lathes that Monarch produced. The Okuma was Tighter heavier, more reliable and accurate, easier to operate and smoother cutting. If you gave me a choice between an Okuma or Mori Sieki lathe or the best that South Bend ever made I’ll take the Japanese machines.


Engineers in Taiwan and Japan receive superb educations. Their programs are most rigorous and produce very competent nuts and bolts engineers able to do sixth level quadratic equations in their heads. However, they are not encouraged along paths of creativity.

I suspect that the problem that we see on the consumer end is that when a western manufacturer goes to Asia, the item first on their minds is that of cutting costs. I suspect that most of these companies are making decisions pursuant to the dictates of a marketing department or they simply don’t have the $$ to do it elsewhere. Once they establish “cost cutting” as their prime goal everything else gets thrown under the bus.

IMNSHO marketing is the worst scourge this planet has ever known (excepting only genocidal monsters and the plague).

[Thomas S Stockton]

I think your looking at this wrong. A grizzly J/P is $2300 with a spiral head, there least expensive 12" jointer with a spiral head is $2000 plus shipping. So your going to have to pay twice the shipping so your about $300 more for the j/p and more and half of that will be the difference in shipping so it is only about $150 more.
You also need to keep in mind that the Grizzly jointer is on the bottom end of the price scale and that an industrial 12" jointer with a quick Tersa or spiral head is going to start at 4k and easily be twice that. Usually on the used market a good american made or european jointer in that size will set you back $2500 to $3500 .
I think if you're only looking at price your missing the point, what you need to ask yourself is this tool going to work for me. do I need the space saving of the combo or is it going to drive me crazy having to change it over.
Tom