Joint Maker Pro (JMP) is officially for sale

[Will Blick]

OK Neanders, the Bridge City Toolworks JMP is finally for sale.... Promotional prices for pre-order.

Fully assembled version is $1244

Partially assembled version is $995

Both prices above are for Founder members, which it certainly makes economic sense to join. After Aug 28, prices jump about 20% to their full retail.

How many takers? What is the unique applications you can think of which this saw will perform, which other tools can simply not do, or can not do as well?

The the thin blades certainly have some appeal.... very thin kerfs, .021", but I think the one blade will even be less, as it has a .013" thickness.

http://tinyurl.com/66tvyt

Please take the poll above.....it will be interesting to see Creekers interest level for this innovative product...

[Kevin Groenke]

I am going to buy one for architectural model builders in our college shop.

-kg

[Bruce Page]

Most people know that Bridge City makes high end, high quality tools but even if they sold the JMP for $500 with no lessening in quality, I still think it would be over priced.
JMHO

[Will Blick]

I hear ya Bruce..... this is why the poll should prove interesting....

The term "over priced" is an hard to define, as low volume products are trying to recoup their R&D costs.... knock-offs aren't concerned with such. In the end, the market always decides what is a fair price for a given product.... Bridge City has a way of producing tools that appeal to the tool geek in many of us....

[John Schreiber]

I won't buy one, but if I was a model builder or puzzle maker, or maybe even if I made small boxes, it might be just the ticket. I saw a picture of what looked like a kinda sloppy, but perfectly good joint and wasn't impressed, but when the text explained that the joint was between two Starbuck's coffee stirrers I was impressed. LINK (http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/Jointmaker+Pro+A+Few+Test+Cuts.aspx)The joint was in such small wood, it just blew me away.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I think an upside down Japanese saw is very clever and potentially useful, may try it myself for thinner wood; but I certainly don't need to spend $1,000+ to feel good. Of course, maybe Christ was right, and we'll all feel much better if we give away all our riches. Who's to say we shouldn't give it to John? :)

Pam

[Doug Shepard]

...Who's to say we shouldn't give it to John? :)

Pam

Ain't that why Bush invented the Economaki Stimulus Package in the first place?:confused:

[John Schreiber]

. . . Of course, maybe Christ was right, and we'll all feel much better if we give away all our riches. Who's to say we shouldn't give it to John? :) . . .
Better to give 50 poor woodworkers their first ryoba than one more tool for me. But if you insist, I'll take it.:D

[Will Blick]

So far, it seems price is not really the big issue.....

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Not a chance.

While I think the Demos are pretty cool I think it's just another way to get a "machine" to do for one what one can probably learn how to do for oneself.

And at that price I think I'd rather have the High Speed Steel Chisels from Harold and Saxon

[John Shuk]

I would if I could.... but I can't so I won't.
It really looks like a wonderful system to me.
I voted yes if the price were $500. But I don't think that would be a fair price for the maker.

[Eric Hartunian]

Ain't that why Bush invented the Economaki Stimulus Package in the first place?:confused:

Great call, Doug.

[Will Blick]

Well, I thought $999 was a bit high too for an upside down miter box.... but then someone above posted a $8k hand plane, now I think the JMP is bargain :-)

[Steve Pirrelli]

It's not for me, but I'm sure it will find it's niche.

[Johnny Kleso]

I just got back from the IWF and the Joint Pro has really impressed me...

John demoed it it for me and a friend and you all would not believe the finish the saw leaves on it's cross cuts!!!

They are so smooth you would swear they have been hand planed but they are sawed!!!

My eyes and fingers tell me hand planed end grain and my eyes say sawed....

I may not be buying one soon but I really want one now :)

Anyone doing small model type work you really need to consider buying one IMHO

I have a cut off and will try to take a photo and do it justice latter...

[Dewey Torres]

Partially assembled for $249 doesn't cut it with me. I think this is a great BUT overpriced tool.

I also think Bridge City sales reps have not seen nor care what the comparable priced Festool Kapex can do!

Anyone with me on this???? Kapex owners perhaps???

[Wilbur Pan]

By the way, in this interview with John Economaki (http://www.woodworkersresource.com/blog/interview-with-john-economaki/) he says that one of the main reasons that the price is so high is that he made a decision to make the Jointmaker Pro completely in the U.S.

So maybe we should all purchase this, so we can buy American!

[Johnny Kleso]

Here are the images..
Its Oak and feels almost like it has been waxed it so smooth, I'm not sure this comes across in images..

http://stanleytools.home.comcast.net/JMP/jmp-1.jpg

http://stanleytools.home.comcast.net/JMP/jmp-2.jpg

[Dave Lehnert]

By the way, in this interview with John Economaki (http://www.woodworkersresource.com/blog/interview-with-john-economaki/) he says that one of the main reasons that the price is so high is that he made a decision to make the Jointmaker Pro completely in the U.S.

So maybe we should all purchase this, so we can buy American!

The exact point I make on the subject of made in the USA tools. Everyone wants it but not willing to pay the price. That is a whole other thread.
I got to see and use the JMP in person at Popular Woodworking office. John Economaki is aware the tool is high priced. He even said he would like to see someone else be able to make the tool more affordable. He gave a quick breakdown of what the materials cost, labor etc.. and you would quickly see why it cost what it does. he also said go to your shop and mount a saw between two oak boards. That was their first prototype. You will see it takes more than that.
It is a tool you need to see and use to understand what it is. It is a true story of American engineering at it's best. I think we should celebrate it for what it is and not continue to beat it down like has been done on a lot of woodworking sites.


Over Priced? that is a personal opinion I guess. But it cost about the same as a full dressed Festool Domino and all it does is drill a hole. But everyone sees the value in that.

[Will Blick]

Dave, all valid points.

Yep, the buy USA!!! But yet, everyone screams about price, its truly the American thing to do. No great solution there, the wages in the USA are amazing vs. other countries. Also, considering how low volume the tool is, BCT deserves come return on their R&D.

I felt the poll showed positive results..... if 5 - 10% of ww buy the saw, I would consider that excellent for a nice product at this price point.

IMO, BCT should do a better job marketing these tools. Make some products that this saw can do which others can't.... don't just show cuts on a You Tube video. Its a tough call to drop this level of coinage on a new tool, we need to be nudged more....and better marketing will do that.... just my $.02

[John O'Neill]

If you watch the YouTube Video, His fingers are very close to that Kerf. And then he gives the stock a good stiff push over the blade. Power or no power, seems mighty dangerous to me.:eek:

[John Schreiber]

. . . the wages in the USA are amazing vs. other countries. . . .
The wages in the USA are not high compared to Europe, especially when you consider their high tax burden, but we love their sliding tables, bandsaws and especially Festool. Quality costs and I think people are willing to pay when it is there. USA manufacturers have not chosen that path (with a few exceptions like the new Unisaw, said to be made in the US).

I don't know what that says specifically about this product. It is a niche product for a very small market and I don't know if they can recover their development costs and make a profit.

[Eddie Darby]

Business is a skill that is not easily mastered by everybody. Perhaps having the unit made in America is a mistake, business-wise.

The only complaint that I have heard about this unit is that it is too expensive. Is there some demanding part of this unit that requires the skills of a highly trained American worker? Could part of it be made offshore, and then the more demanding part be done in America?

If the aim of this project is to put Americans to work, then it is right on that track, but if the aim is to make the biggest profit, then it has placed itself, judging by the pole, too high on the price/quantity curve. 5 times more people would buy it if it was cheaper. 6 people at roughly $1,000 vs 29 people at $500, that's $6,000 vs. $14,500.

As a woodworking tool I would have to say that this is a huge success, but as an example of fine business practise, I would deem it a failure.

So the good news is that it doesn't have to stay a failure business-wise.

[Pam Niedermayer]

The wages in the USA are not high compared to Europe, especially when you consider their high tax burden, but we love their sliding tables, bandsaws and especially Festool. Quality costs and I think people are willing to pay when it is there. USA manufacturers have not chosen that path (with a few exceptions like the new Unisaw, said to be made in the US)...


Heard the other day that if employee pay had kept up with executive pay, the average annual pay per employee would be $500,000.

Pam

[Tristan Raymond]

Business is a skill that is not easily mastered by everybody. Perhaps having the unit made in America is a mistake, business-wise.

With high transportation costs (petroleum) and the dollar scraping the bottom of the barrel I'm not sure having it made elsewhere would save any money. I would guess that it's the low production numbers that are keeping the cost high.

[Peter Quadarella]

The dollar has actually been making a surge the last month or so. But, it's also not so simple and cheap to start manufacturing in China for a small operation. There's travel, QA, making sure they know what you want, finding the right suppliers, and all kinds of other things. Like anything in business, there's a lot of work involved, and sometimes there are other priorities.

[Tristan Raymond]

The dollar has actually been making a surge the last month or so.

True, but it's still WAY down from where it was 5 or 6 years ago. In 2001 the dollar was worth more than the Euro, today it's $1.49 for one Euro. When I came back from living in Australia in 2001 I got $0.48 for each Australian dollar, now it's worth $0.88. Our currency is weak.

[Eddie Darby]

Anyone ever hear of a place called Mexico?

If shipping becomes too expensive because of fuel costs, then we are in real big trouble since 90% of the world's goods are shipped at one time in a freight container on a freight ship. You will know that when it happens by the sudden dissappearance of WalMart stores and Japanese cars.

Does anyone know how many Jointmaker Pro's will fit into one freight container?

[Eddie Darby]

At $249 for assembly (1244 minus 995), I figure I could do about 10 of these a day, times 250 work days a year, that adds up to .....$622,500 a year!

Yeah that sounds like executive pay to me.:eek:

Hey I'm an executive and didn't even know it.

[Richard Magbanua]

Would I buy this tool? No, I'm just a hobbyist. But I think this is definitely something that would benefit certain woodworking businesses such as box makers, model makers, architects, segmented woodturners, etc.. I could see it being a very wise investment if you consider its accuracy, noise level, power requirements, low waste and versatility. Look at how much we spend on other business items such as vehicles, power tools, or computers without blinking an eye. Bottom line is that if you are running a business and this tool can help produce a product faster, safer or better a thousand bucks might be a small amount in the whole scheme of things. It is possible that, just like to those things called "computers", while some are complaining about how much it costs or how silly it is, someone else sees an opportunity and finds success.

[Will Blick]

Eddie and Rich, great analysis..... I hope John E. from BCT reads these posts...they can learn a lot if they listen to customers.


While I agree, if the tool serves a very distinct purpose in a profitable business that does ww, then the cost can easily be absorbed.... no question about it. But IMO, often there is not enough of those specialty companies to support the product line. AS the poll indicated, a lot more people would buy this product if the price point was more favorable.... we all have perceived values of certain products and the poll demonstrated this.


One of the toughest decisions most suppliers make is where to have a product manufactured....and this often depends on the volume. But for a new product like this, the volume issue is unknown, a real chicken or the egg scenario. IMO, once you set the price and commit to USA, then its hard to lower the price in the future, as you can alienate your early adapters.

Of course, you can always offer a similar model made overseas so it does not compete with the American made product. Its a tough call, but John has made BCT survive selling high priced tools for some time now, so he must have more insights than we do.

I too did not like the fingers being so close to that saw blade.... at the speed the fence was moving, that blade seems very dangerous, specially considering how sharp it must be...

[Will Blick]

Johny, a surface that smooth sure sounds appealing.... I hate sanding... stop tempting me.... I was one one of the guys on the fence !


;-)

[Tim Sproul]

Eddie and Rich, great analysis..... I hope John E. from BCT reads these posts...they can learn a lot if they listen to customers.

AS the poll indicated, a lot more people would buy this product if the price point was more favorable....

tongue in cheek....sort of. I'd bet $100,000 that not even 10% of those that responded they'd buy it for $500 would actually spend $500 if the price were such.

Polling and actually doing are completely different things. Ask a politician.

[Will Blick]

> Polling and actually doing are completely different things. Ask a politician.


In this case, everyone is anonymous, and there are no issues of race or other embarrassing biases which often alter political polls.


I think this poll tells a good story.... the product is a niche product, and if priced more competitively, (assuming that is possible, which it appears it is), then the product might have 6x the customer base......of course, this only based on 133 responses so far, but considering we Neanders are the market base, it tells a prelim. story IMO.

[Doug Shepard]

It would be intersting if you had a poll option for "Already Plunked Down the PreOrder Special Price Cash". Would that be the same number as the current Will Buy option? Just thinking out loud here.

[Tim Sproul]

> Polling and actually doing are completely different things. Ask a politician.


In this case, everyone is anonymous, and there are no issues of race or other embarrassing biases which often alter political polls.

.


It isn't just politics. Get a group of hobbyist woodworking friends together. Suggest everyone should do a simple project - say a dovetailed box - and then get back together in a month. All will say 'Yes!' with enthusiasm. Only a handful will actually do it. Same here for those that say they'd buy the JMP if it was only $500. I'm sure they mean it.....but when you actually have to pony up the $500, few actually would. This is just the nature of people. It is very easy to say you will. It is a completely different thing to actually do. We are all guilty of this at different times in our lives. Given this, I don't think Bridge City can look at this thread as any real indicator that the price is too high and they could capture economies of scale by reducing the price but selling more units.

[Will Blick]

> I don't think Bridge City can look at this thread as any real indicator that the price is too high and they could capture economies of scale by reducing the price but selling more units.


On the flip side, I think BCT can be assured the asking price in this poll did not get a favorable response. Many people in this forum represent the type of buyer BCT would pursue. Whether they actually buy the JMP or not, is a secondary point..... first you must pass the pricing hurdle. There is a lot of products I would buy, but I don't.... however, in most cases, it's not because of price.

I am not suggesting BCT can change anything, or that the price is unfair....lots of products are priced higher than their perceived value...

[John Gornall]

Talking to a German I mentioned that I noticed prices for everything in Germany and all of Europe were high. He agreed they were high and thought that was good. He liked high prices and was happy to pay them. His logic was that everyone made a good profit and could afford to spend more at other businesses. He pointed out the simple logic of economics that wealth is generated every time a transaction takes place and it's great when money keeps moving through the population. He thinks it's sad and amusing the way North Americans beat each other out of business trying to save a penny. He refered to a "Walmart" mentality. I've allways found it rather sad that forums like this talk about where to get a tool cheaper more than they talk about woodwork. When I spend, particularly from a small business, I hope they make a good profit because it's good for me in the long term.

PS I bet they sell a lot of Joint Makers in Europe!

[Will Blick]

John, I don't think BCT sells outside the USA....

I agree with your post.... how do you think USA got Walmart syndrome and yet, Germany did not get this same disease?

[John Gornall]

I wonder the response if a company such as Lie Nielsen announced a review of their business indicated they would like to raise their tool development budget and give their employees a 20% raise so they are adding 25 dollars to the price of every tool. Seems to me everyone could win.

But maybe I'll wait for one of the new Stanley planes made in Asia so I can save a couple of bucks.

[John Gornall]

Will, according to the BCT website they will ship to Europe. And shipping on a Joint Maker is free in the USA.

[Pam Niedermayer]

.... how do you think USA got Walmart syndrome and yet, Germany did not get this same disease?


Because the German gov't hasn't made a big effort to destroy the unions, thus keeping worker wages higher than here. This is a top down thing. If our leaders cheap out on the minions, the minions must cheap out on what they buy.

Pam

[Peter Quadarella]

John, your German friend is nutso ;). I don't want to turn this into a political discussion but anyone who thinks business competition is bad better explain why so many people in the world are dying to get into the US. You should have the discussion in 30 years and see where Europe stands, next to the Americas and Asia.

I wish the JMP were bigger - then I might consider it.

[Will Blick]

John, IIRC, I think BCT mentioned they do not market in Europe....but of course, I am sure they would not deny a sale to Europe. It would make sense for them to capitalize on the weak dollar, I am sure its in their game plan.

Pam, yep, unions might play a factor, but its free trade that is the bigger factor.... unions falling is more a function of allowing imports from countries that have no fair labor practices. Recently GM had to buy-out all their $28 an hour employees. Their new business models shows they can not make a profit at wages over $14 an hours. This is a result of the max. retail selling price of the car, set by imports. The more the world globalizes, the more we will see this IMO.

It seems there will always be a clash between imports and "Made in country of origin" goods.

[John Shuk]

John, your German friend is nutso ;). I don't want to turn this into a political discussion but anyone who thinks business competition is bad better explain why so many people in the world are dying to get into the US. You should have the discussion in 30 years and see where Europe stands, next to the Americas and Asia.

I wish the JMP were bigger - then I might consider it.

I think people from different places have different sensibilities. I have heard anecdotes about wwkers in Germany thinking that we are crazy to charge as little for what we make here in the US.
If Bridge City arrived at the price of the JMP in a reasonable manner I don't see why they need to apologize for the pricing.

[Peter Quadarella]

I agree, and I have no doubt people will buy it. Actually, I think there is a segment of the population that will pay whatever it costs to get quality.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Pam, yep, unions might play a factor, but its free trade that is the bigger factor.... unions falling is more a function of allowing imports from countries that have no fair labor practices. Recently GM had to buy-out all their $28 an hour employees. Their new business models shows they can not make a profit at wages over $14 an hours. This is a result of the max. retail selling price of the car, set by imports. The more the world globalizes, the more we will see this IMO.

It seems there will always be a clash between imports and "Made in country of origin" goods.

Yes, certainly true for the last 10 years or so, but not for the first 20 of this decimation. And I'd bet, though I don't know, that it was the promise of free trade with cheap labor that allowed those in charge to kill wages. I'll quote one number I heard lately, that if employee wages had kept pace with executive pay, the average worker would now make $500,000 per annum.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

John, your German friend is nutso ;). I don't want to turn this into a political discussion but anyone who thinks business competition is bad better explain why so many people in the world are dying to get into the US. You should have the discussion in 30 years and see where Europe stands, next to the Americas and Asia.

I don't want a republican vs democrat political discussion either, but the premise of this thread is political by nature, rich vs poor, whether we like it or not. I think most people immigrate here to get rich, and let's face it, I'd much rather be poor here than most anywhere else.

Also, we are such a huge economy that we can surely drag everyone down with us, like some great sucking machine. Doesn't make us the better system. Besides, once we get universal health care, many pressures on the GM's of the world will decrease, to say nothing of the pressures on the GM workers. :)

Pam

[John Shuk]

Funny how the imports are generally a bit more expensive these days, a bit:rolleyes: more reliable, and yet they still turn a profit. Manufacturers could have done more over the years to support their dealers so that they could make more than a few hundred dollars on a car sale.
Yeah the workers have had a great package but the management dictated the designs and materials then allowed their cars to be sold unprofitably.
I've seen alot of lake houses in Northern Michigan owned by auto execs and NONE owned by hourly employees.
Rant off.

[Doug Shepard]

Cant post a direct link to another forum but if you check John Economaki's blog http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/2008/07/, there is a link to Roger Savatteri's FOG review after 2 days at BCTW. In it, one of the posts in the thread has a section on some of the reasons the cost is so high and IIRC it's primarily the cost of materials and machining. Even as high as it is, I dont get the sense there's a huge profit margin there.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Manufacturers could have done more over the years to support their dealers so that they could make more than a few hundred dollars on a car sale...


GM and Ford profit approximately $15,000 for each pickup truck and suv. Don't know if that's gross, net, after taxes, but it's still a big chunk of change.

Pam

[Doug Shepard]

GM and Ford profit approximately $15,000 for each pickup truck and suv. Don't know if that's gross, net, after taxes, but it's still a big chunk of change.

Pam

While at the same time taking a bath or making minimal profit on their small cars just so they can meet CAFE standards and compete with the Japanese cars. Now that gas is $4 a gallon and nobody's buying trucks and SUVs, things aren't looking quite so profitable.

[John Shuk]

Sorry for getting off topic.

Imagine what the value of a JMP will be in 100 years when there are only hundreds known in existence anymore and people are saying "They just don't build things like this anymore."
Bridge City doesn't build tools for the masses. I think the JMP fits very nicely into the niche market they exist in. That they pursued development of this in the first place is really neat. How many companies build for the few?

[Will Blick]

John, I fully agree...and I don't think anyone is mocking the effort on behalf of BCT. Companies like this are the greatest thing for many of us ww's. I have bought a lot of high quality tools from BCT and certainly want them to be around for a long time. This poll was nothing more than a probe of the creekers position on the JMP usefulness vs. its price...

I can't seem to get off the fence :-)

[Pam Niedermayer]

While at the same time taking a bath or making minimal profit on their small cars just so they can meet CAFE standards and compete with the Japanese cars. Now that gas is $4 a gallon and nobody's buying trucks and SUVs, things aren't looking quite so profitable.


Yes, I know that, but it makes their situation even worse. Think how many more suv's/pickups might have been sold at a $7500 profit. Why can't they make small cars as cheaply and with as high a quality as the Japanese? Sure, part of it is health care (you can probably guess my solution for this) and pensions; but pensions were negotiated in exchange for contemporary wages. Meanwhile, Toyota and Honda assemble cars in the US and handily sell them. I think this is American management at its worst, but they're so hide bound by some nostalgia for what used to be that they simply can't think outside that box. They are as incompetent as those at FEMA who "managed" Katrina. And in both cases, where are the female managers?

As to the price of BCT tools, they are clearly intended for the wealthy among us. I've been in the position to consider $1000 insignificant, not now, but when my company was still in business. I understand the decision process. Now I'm retired due to 9/11 (it killed my small business clients, made them too wary to purchase new software), no social security and no medicare; so it's out of the question to buy a $1000 hand saw. What I do see myself doing, because it looks pretty neat, is making a version from an old contractor saw with one of my Japanese saws mounted. That's a no cost effort, right up my alley financially. :)


Pam

[Joel Goodman]

I'm not rich but I don't mind paying a bit more for made in USA goods. Not that I'm about to get the Joint Maker Pro!

[mike rawl]

Hi everyone, I am a long time lurker, first time commenter. I can’t understand why there isn’t more love for the JMP. It is an exciting tool and while expensive, in not necessarily overpriced as seems to be the consensus. When I look at the JMP I see a tool that has the potential of saving a woodworker a lot of money in the long run. Not only that I see it as one of the few tools that has the potential of making me, or most people, a better woodworker.

One the financial side, if I had the JMP I would be less likely to accumulate the vast collection of boutique tools and specialty tools that many of the Neander’s are partial too and have probably spent thousands on. I would also be less likely to buy expensive jigs and fixtures for the table saw router because the JMP can do everything they can when it comes to dovetails, angled tenons, etc. I If it can’t I can probably use the JMP to make a jig that will do what I need.

As a woodworker, it will allow to work far more efficiently. I could cut tenons and dovetails that would require little, if any, clean up. Since quality of f a hand tools cutl is directly proportional to the skill of the craftsman, this would save hours of tweaking and assembly time.　It would improves the quality of my pieces because the joinery would be far better than it is now and it would glue up easier too.. This would allow me to do more finishing prior to assembly saving even more time.

As a craftsman, the ability to make accurate cuts will not only improve the quality of the final product but will also make it more interesting. Difficult joints that I would not dare make now, such as a three way miter, or the angled tenons for chair making, are now easily within reach. Sliding dovetails for drawer backs are now an appealing hand tool option as well. I see the JMP as complimenting and encouraging hand tool work of all kinds, not detracting from it.

The biggest argument that I do not understand is the one about safety. I work as safely as I can but I have still turned my thumb into hamburger on a table and sliced off a chunk of a finger with a band saw. I have also cut my self with hand saws many times. The hand saw cuts are by far the better ones to get if you are going to get cut. The cut would be less severe, cleaner, and heal quicker than a table saw or band saw cut. Also for the cuts I would be using the JPM for, I think I would be less likely to cut myself on it than if I was doing something similar on the table saw or the band saw.

I don’t see the JMP as a niche tool. I see it as an indispensible tool for anyone who wants to make the best furniture that they can. If you really think about the JMP and compare it to all the other expensive tools you own and rarely use, whether it be plane, chisel, or jig, it may not really be that expensive. I just don’t understand why there isn’t more love for this great tool.

[Doug Shepard]

... I think this is American management at its worst, but they're so hide bound by some nostalgia for what used to be that they simply can't think outside that box. They are as incompetent as those at FEMA who "managed" Katrina....


No argument there.

[Allan Brown]

As a craftsman, the ability to make accurate cuts will not only improve the quality of the final product but will also make it more interesting. Difficult joints that I would not dare make now, such as a three way miter, or the angled tenons for chair making, are now easily within reach. Sliding dovetails for drawer backs are now an appealing hand tool option as well. I see the JMP as complimenting and encouraging hand tool work of all kinds, not detracting from it.


I have a difficult time accepting that this tool enhances "hand tool work". I guess the new standard for craftsmanship is increasing tolerances and accuracy by diminishing the opportunity for human error -- but applying just enough physical labor to the process to qualify it as "hand made". Ludicrous.

[mike rawl]

I have a difficult time accepting that this tool enhances "hand tool work". I guess the new standard for craftsmanship is increasing tolerances and accuracy by diminishing the opportunity for human error -- but applying just enough physical labor to the process to qualify it as "hand made". Ludicrous.

No where in my previous post did I use the word "enhance". I said that it could "compliment and encourage" hand work. By this I mean that people who have this tool will use it for joints that the previously would have only attempted with a variety of expensive table saw or router jigs. While basic cuts would be made with the JMP, a user will need to go back to other tools, such as their chisels and saws to clean out the wast. In this way it "encourages" as well as "compliments" had tool use tool use.

I did not linger on increasing "tolerances and accuracy" as being a standard of craftsmanship. I mentioned it in regard to efficiency. A wood worker who cuts cleanly cuts efficiently. My comment on craftsmanship is that it would encourage a would worker to do different types of joints that they currently rely on power tools and expensive jigs to make, if they bother to make them at all.

I appreciate the romantic notion of an old world craftsman and I think that it is and ideal that all wood workers should strive for. However, I am not one who believes that the hardest way is the best way. I believe whatever will allow a person to make the best furniture they can is the best way.

As to the comment made about keeping the minimum amount of physical labor to the process to qualify as "hand made", well... How about the next time you have a tailor make a suit for you how about you insist that he uses a needle and tread instead of a sewing machine. Same deal with some nice "hand crafted" shoes. Why does "hand made" furniture need to be held to a completely different standard than everything that we all appreciate as being "hand made"? That is a topic for a different thread, if there isn't one already.

[Martin Dubois]

Will, according to the BCT website they will ship to Europe. And shipping on a Joint Maker is free in the USA.

It turns out that US shipping on the Joint Maker Pro is $59. Although it is not mentioned on the Bridge City web site, the JMP is an exception to their usual policy of free shipping on orders over $500.

[Allan Brown]

It seems many of us have found -- or been led to -- the belief that a "perfect joint" is the pinnacle of our craft. Certainly, it's important, but not the Holy Grail. Many of the classic pieces now in museums have dovetails that we would find coarse and objectionable -- when viewed strictly by themselves. This over-simplification of what's important causes us often to diverge from the pursuit of aesthetic beauty as evidenced in the entire piece of cabinetwork -- warts and all. And many, if not most, of the toolmakers in business today would be very reluctant to tell you otherwise. They prosper when they separate you from your money. That's cool; that's capitalism...

I'm sorry you thought I misinterpreted your comments, but when I read the "...quality of a hand tool cut is directly proportional to the skill of the craftsman, this would save hours of tweaking and assembly time. It would improve the quality of my pieces because the joinery would be far better than it is now..." I made the assumption that you meant it would enhance the use of hand tools. My bad...

[Pam Niedermayer]

...One the financial side, if I had the JMP I would be less likely to accumulate the vast collection of boutique tools and specialty tools that many of the Neander’s are partial too and have probably spent thousands on. I would also be less likely to buy expensive jigs and fixtures for the table saw router because the JMP can do everything they can when it comes to dovetails, angled tenons, etc. I If it can’t I can probably use the JMP to make a jig that will do what I need....

Now there's a real difference in the jmp assessment. I see the jmp as one big, expensive jig. There's nothing it does that I can't now do by hand with Japanese saws. I see its value in small piece making/manufacture. For example, making kumiko for shoji is a drudge after a few pieces; and it appears that the jmp could be used to advantage on that type project.

Pam

[John Shuk]

I always got a laugh from this joke.
I too agree that much of the maladies of American businesses are due management at it's worst.


A man in a hot air balloon realised he was lost. He reduced altitude and spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and shouted,
"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an
hour ago, but I don't know where I am".
The woman below replied,
"You're in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet above the
ground. You're between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude."
"You must be in the union", said the balloonist.
"I am", replied the woman, "How did you know"?
"Well", answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technical but I've no idea what to make of your information and the fact is I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all. If anything, you've delayed my trip."
The woman below responded, "You must be in Management".
"I am", replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"
"Well", said the woman, "you don't know where you are or where you're going. You have risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's all my fault."

[mike rawl]

When I said that The JMP would "increase the quality of my joinery" I was not even thinking about how the joints would look. I was only thinking about how easily the joints would fit together. I have no problem with the look of any hand cut joinery, what I dislike is the sometimes tedious and always inefficiet need to tweek my joints by hand.

When I wrote my original comment I was also thinking about tenons more than dovetails. currently when I cut a tenon by hand the shoulders will all look fine but there is inevitably something wrong with one or more of the tenon cheeks that requires careful tweeking. There also always seems to be something that I miss, even with a dry fit, that causes my glue ups to be a bear.

The "imporoved quality of cut" was only ment as a comment about being able to work more efficiently, not as comment about my joints being more visually appealing.

[Allan Brown]

Mike,
I appreciate your comments...and totally understand them. The issues that have been raised, though, are worth discussing because they go to the root of what we consider...or have been told...is acceptable joinery. What I resist is the notion that the only thing standing between us and a successful piece of cabinetry is a jig, tool, whatsit or widget. You may make the conscious decision to use a certain tool to affect various efficiencies, but in the end, craftsmanship is the link between the mind of the artist and the execution of his hand.
My apologies for being rather intense about this subject...
Allan

[mike rawl]

Allen I couldn't agree with you more in regard to craftsmanship. The tools we use, whether they are power tools or hand tools, will always reflect our skill, talent, and imagination. Some things, such as a power tool, the JMP, or Computer program like Sketch Up or CAD, can be used compensate for weakness in a particular area, such as the the execution or the design of a project. The tools could allow a person to show utilize thier imagination that they couldn't before. However, no too can over come a persons lack of imagination or talent.

I see as JMP as a tool that can be used to by someone to tap their tallent and imagination in ways that will require them to sell their souls to the devils of entirely machine cut joinery. The JMP can only start a wide variety of joiner such as half blind and full bind dovetails of the femal part of a small sliding dovetal. These will all have to be finished using chisels and other hand tools, which I think is good. Router jigs such as the wood-rat, router boss, the Leigh jigs, or the JDS multi-router that many people turn to to improve their efficiency eliminate any need for hand tooling, which is not good.

I agree that it will probably be relegated to being a niche tool or one for wealthy hobbiest's with GAS (gear acquisition syndrome). However, I still wonder why there is no love for this tool. 5 1/2% pecent of resondants to the poll would buy it at the current price while But 68% of respondents wouldn't buy it at any price. I know that there are a lot of people who would not buy this tool for one reason or another but really, 68%?

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I have no problem with the look of any hand cut joinery, what I dislike is the sometimes tedious and always inefficiet need to tweek my joints by hand.

When I wrote my original comment I was also thinking about tenons more than dovetails. currently when I cut a tenon by hand the shoulders will all look fine but there is inevitably something wrong with one or more of the tenon cheeks that requires careful tweeking....

I don't know how the jmp will cure all your tenon fit problems, not even sure how deep it will allow you to cut; so it may do nothing much for regular sized tenon cheeks.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

...The tools we use, whether they are power tools or hand tools, will always reflect our skill, talent, and imagination. Some things, such as a power tool, the JMP, or Computer program like Sketch Up or CAD, can be used compensate for weakness in a particular area, such as the the execution or the design of a project. The tools could allow a person to show utilize thier imagination that they couldn't before. However, no too can over come a persons lack of imagination or talent....

I don't see how SU/CAD does any of this. Mainly it allows one to change the design without redrawing everything. Now, true, it's easier to draw a straight line in SU/CAD; but neither architecture nor furniture design requires straight lines until the final design document.

Pam

[mike rawl]

I don't see how SU/CAD does any of this. Mainly it allows one to change the design without redrawing everything. Now, true, it's easier to draw a straight line in SU/CAD; but neither architecture nor furniture design requires straight lines until the final design document.

Pam

I may have been wrong to mention CAD. I am sorry. In regard to how SU can help with design and execution I will quote Tim Killen of Fine Woodworking's "Design. Click. Build." Blog. In his June 9, 2007 entry he says:

The use of SketchUp is critical to the success of the program. This tool gives me confidence in the design details, that pieces (if built to plan) will successfully assemble into a workable bench. Helping to ensure building to plan, SketchUp makes it easy to create full-size templates which are used for accurate and reapeatable markup of lumber. I've found from experience in other school project activities that the templates increase chances that components will be accurately fabricated.

The blog has a lot of wonderful examples of how SU can be used to assist in the design/build process.

The other thing is my interest I am interested in the JMP not because I am unhappy with the quality of my work, I am happy with it. I am interested in it because of the potential of increased efficeincy. That is it, efficiency. Can it be used for everything? No, it can't. I would not want to use it for everything either.

[Allan Brown]

However, I still wonder why there is no love for this tool. 5 1/2% pecent of resondants to the poll would buy it at the current price while But 68% of respondents wouldn't buy it at any price. I know that there are a lot of people who would not buy this tool for one reason or another but really, 68%?

Mike,
I'm sure most of the folks feel like there's not much the JMP can do that they can't already accomplish with a saw and chisel -- not as cleanly, perhaps, or quickly -- but acceptably well (within one's standard of what is acceptable, of course).

I've not learned to use Sketchup either, even though it seems interesting enough. I rely on pencil sketches of critical components to work out placement, etc., but don't typically use measurements (except maybe for gross cuts or roughing out). Parts, pieces are cut to fit as necessary. I just finished a bookshelf for my granddaughter, and when her mother asked how large it was, I had to guess! (I was off by several inches in every direction!) :o HAHA! The only time I actually measured the case was to determine the widths of the backboards.
Allan

[mike rawl]

I have tried to use it but I am not the biggest fan of computers and am have been frustrated by my half-hearted attempts to learn it. Because other people do use it and may feel that SU helps them make better projects I continue to be interested in it. I was just trying to use it as another example of tool that could help a woodworker become more productive or efficient and, when used by the right people, more creative.

[James Mittlefehldt]

I don't use SU either, but then I trained as a draftsman back in the early seventies, so if I need a detailed and neat drawing, then I do it on paper with pencils and such. Guess that makes me a real neander, though usually I just do a sketch and after I work out the dimensions note them down and go to work like Allen.

When you think of it though how many corded guys have a Liegh Jig that cost well past $500 including accessories. so they can maybe make dovetails two or three times a year?

I would be willing to bet BCT have some market segments in mind we have not yet considered. Also the example that Pam gave above is a good one, I watched a wood wright's shop episode that showed a guy who was into that and I could see if you did shoji a lot say two or three times a year it would be a godsend.

I said no I would not buy it, but then I won't buy a LN number 8 for $400 dollars either, but that is just me.

[mike rawl]

I would always like to find a way to work more efficiently. The appeal of the JMP, for me, is in its versatility and its potential to improve my efficiency.

When I first started woodworking I had cheap tools and little skill. My joints were terrible and they always needed to be cleand up and tweaked. After tweeking I would have a tenon, dove tail, mortise, etc. that I was more than happy with, but it was slow going. After buying better saws I was able to cut more accurately, which happened to increase my efficiency as well.

In regard to tenons, when I started woodwoking I tweaked them with a chisel and a file and it was a pain. I eventually bought a shoulder plane. His helped to speed up my tweaking, but it is not always the best tool. I later bought a router plane and now think the only way I can improve my overall efficency is by not needing to tweak at all.

Practice has made me a better woodworker and has hepled to improve my efficiency but there is still room for improvement. Every time I have bought a tool I tried to buy the highst quality tool that I could. Almost all the tools that I have bought have made major contributions to the quality and efficiency of my work.

The one exception is a set of expensive Japanese chisels. While great tools that I am priveledged to own, It was not as smart a purchase as the saws or specialty planes were. While I know that there are poeple who would disagree with me, I don't think there is anything that I can do with these tools that I couldn't do with my marples. They cost about $500 bucks too, which was at least 10 times as much.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...now think the only way I can improve my overall efficency is by not needing to tweak at all.

Practice has made me a better woodworker and has hepled to improve my efficiency but there is still room for improvement. Every time I have bought a tool I tried to buy the highst quality tool that I could. ...

I couldn't agree more. The process of tweaking is lengthy, all that measuring and testing for fit; so I go for it on every cut. However, if you stop practicing, you won't get better, just more dependent.

Pam