Chisel question..

[Zachary Bulacan]

I am a wannabe luthier (maker of stringed instruments) and am doing most of it with hand tools. I am looking at either ashley iles chisels or veritas detail chisels. These will be hand work no hammers. Are these sutible or is it worth the extra money to go with LN or blue spruce or something higher end?

[Johnny Kleso]

I pretty sure the LV is smaller then the BS

I would guess the AI or BS would be my choice...

PS:

FWW just rated these Grizzly Chisels a Best Buy

http://www.grizzly.com/images/pics/jpeg288/g/g7102.jpg
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Japanese-Chisels-10-pc-Set/G7102

$139 for 10


If I did not own 6-8 sets of chisels I wouldbuy a set of these..

[David Tiell]

I think I would opt for the Ashley Isles myself. Very nice chisels at a reasonable price for what you get.

[Steve Hamlin]

Hi Zachary
I make mandolins, mostly by hand, and use a mix of chisels. including the LV detail, Blue Spruce DT, Sorby bevelled edge, paring and mortice, Ray Iles mortice and assorted gouges. I have also used the AI bevelled edge chisels (work well, just preferred the Sorby's)
For most operations, I find a good length of blade is better because of the better clearance for the handle (working braces, cutting binding rebates) though for tinkering in a partly completed body, the detail chisels are handy. (My first thoughts were to look for teeny tools)
Have you decided how you are going to attach the necks? I use a mortice or DT depending on the instrument, and like to waste most of the material with a mortice chisel. (Overkill for the shallow DT for a violin)
(If applicable) how will you be cutting the truss rod chanel?
How will you be shaping the neck and heel?

If disaster struck and I needed to re-equip, I'd probably start with (in this order):
Full sized bevelled edge bench chisels in 1/8", 1/4", 1/2" and 1" (Sorby, AI - whatever takes your fancy)
A good stout knife (not a chisel, but often used where a chisel could do - so I threw it in)
Mortice chisel - 1/4" (A decent bench chisel will handle the job - but this satisfies my oafish tendencies :D )
Paring chisels - 1/4" and 1"
Gouges
Swan neck chisel
Detail chisels
DT chisels (these are a nicety - bench chisels will do the job)
More bench chisels

Really does depend on what instruments you're making and how you want to work.
Cheers
Steve

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I'm on the cusp of a chisel decision too.


I spent some time looking at Japanese chisels and have rejected them for a couple of reasons. I rather suspect that I won’t enjoy the shorter length blade . In fact the chisels I’m using now are the short length blade types that you can get at the borg with plastic handles and I don’t like ‘em much at all.
Also, I am just a tad off put by the brevity of sharpenable steel on the tips of the Jap style blades. The Japanese chisels have a small area of the tip that can be ground down. In many the actual tip is inset along the edge just exactly like the old Damascus swords had their hard edges laminated in. And I have a fear (probably unreasonable) that I’ll grind it all away sooner than I’d expect and be at a loss.


I’m also a tad shy of the Air Hardening steels while being attracted to them at the same time. Air hardening as you know is thru hardening while Oil and Water hardening steels are not. This of course means that the much more of an air hardened chisel will be available for sharpening. The flip of this for Oil hardening steels is that damn few chisels are so thick that this becomes an issue at all. Oil hardening steels take their hardness about 1/8” or so deep ( sometimes a little more) into the surface and most chisels are not thicker than about 1/4" thick.
Another factor is that Oil Hardening steels tend to take a finer edge. This might be of greater importance to you than some others since you will be using them as paring chisels most the time. I’d guess you’d want as keen an edge as you an obtain.

[Jim Becker]

Welcome to SMC!

I happen to own the AI chisels (longer handle version from ToolsForWorkingWood.com) and really enjoy them. I was fortunate to be able to stop by their showroom while in NYC on business and actually handle (pardon the expression) several different brands and configurations before choosing the AI tools. I've also had the LN in my hand at a friend's shop and they are sweet. I have not yet touched the Blue Spruce, but would certainly consider them if I started to get into some hard-core hand-cut dovetail work based on what I've read and seen in pictures.

I'm not so sure that for "most of us" the exact formula of metal in the tool is going to have a major effect on our work, although I'm very respectful of Cliff's considerations. My AI chisels hold an edge for a long time, at least in the work I've done, and I find them pretty easy to maintain, especially given I'm a neophyte Neander and don't have a lot of experience with the finer points of sharpening. (I do sharpen freehand, however, on water stones)

[Wilbur Pan]

Also, I am just a tad off put by the brevity of sharpenable steel on the tips of the Jap style blades. The Japanese chisels have a small area of the tip that can be ground down. In many the actual tip is inset along the edge just exactly like the old Damascus swords had their hard edges laminated in. And I have a fear (probably unreasonable) that I’ll grind it all away sooner than I’d expect and be at a loss.


Hi Cliff,

Can you expand on this? I have a hard time envisioning what you are concerned with. Of the things I try to pay attention to when sharpening my Japanese chisels, grinding away the hard edge is the one thing that I never had to worry about.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Can you expand on this?

I'll try. See the photo:
94685

That small-ish area where there is hard metal is not merely small but, if one happened to grind it all away (assuming the whole chisel were hardened) there would be a weird shape to the edge

With the classic english or American pattern the back is flat and you can grind your heart out.

[Mark Singer]

The Japanese chisels hold a better edge than most others IMHO. Blue Spruce are great for light work.

[Mike Henderson]

I'll try. See the photo:
94685

That small-ish area where there is hard metal is not merely small but, if one happened to grind it all away (assuming the whole chisel were hardened) there would be a weird shape to the edge

With the classic english or American pattern the back is flat and you can grind your heart out.
All the Japanese chisels I've ever seen had a hard steel lamination that's an eighth or 3/16" thick (this is from memory - I didn't go measure any). The back is then ground concave so that it's easier to flatten the back. But the hard steel is still plenty thick, even with the concave area. In other words, the depth of the concave is a lot less than the thickness of the hard steel.

It would be very difficult, using hand methods, to grind the hard steel away to the point where you get into the non-hardened steel (or iron).

I would point out, from a technical point of view, you only need a very thin layer of hard steel - just enough to form the edge. But I've never seen a Japanese chisel worn away that much. The hard steel layer has always been fairly substantial, even on worn chisels.

Mike

[But maybe what you meant is that if you grind the edge without flattening the back, you can grind into the hollow, which would leave you with a defective edge. This is true, but is the reason you need to flatten the back so that it doesn't happen. Kind of a "catch-22" - if they didn't give you the hollows, it would be more difficult to flatten the back, and because they do give you a hollow, you *must* flatten the back (even though it's easier).]

[David DeCristoforo]

FWIW, the correct "technique" is to "tap out" the hollows and reflatten the backs after repeated sharpenings have removed enough material to "get into" the hollows. This is an "acquired skill" that, if done incorrectly, can destroy the chisel. It is, nevertheless, "SOP" for Japanese chisels and plane blades.

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Cliff,

Mike and David are correct. As you sharpen the chisel by grinding the bevel, you'll move the edge closer to the hollow. When you get very close to the hollow, that's the time to start grinding the back. As you grind the back, you will "move" the hollow back, so that you have more of the flat area in front of the hollow.

You can see how this works in the attached picture. This is the back side of a plane blade, but it applies to chisels as well. The blue line represents the flat areas of the back. The white is the hollow. If you grind the back of the blade on a waterstone, the red areas become part of the flat.

The hollows in Japanese chisels look deceptively deep, especially if they have that contrasting black color. They really are more shallow than they appear, so it doesn't take much grinding to move the flat back enough.

Tapping out a chisel is possible, but most chisels are narrow enough so that you don't really have to do this. Grinding the back side has been enough for chisels up to 42 mm wide in my hands. Multi-hollow chisels like the ones in your picture are less likely to need tapping out. Plane blades are much wider, so tapping out is more likely to be needed, but I've been able to manage the hollow by grinding the flat of the plane blade alone.

[Zachary Bulacan]

Hi Zachary
(My first thoughts were to look for teeny tools)
Have you decided how you are going to attach the necks? I use a mortice or DT depending on the instrument, and like to waste most of the material with a mortice chisel. (Overkill for the shallow DT for a violin)
(If applicable) how will you be cutting the truss rod chanel?
How will you be shaping the neck and heel?

Steve

I will put out what I have in my head since I have as yet only built kits that some of this would be unneeded but I will be moving into scratch building soon. I build ukuleles right now but plan to branch out to guitars also.I thought at first teeny tools also which is why I started looking at the LV details but the more I read the more I thought the standard ones would do with one paring for brace shaping. Heres what I would envision a 1/2" for general cleanup and brace and dovetailing 1/8" for nut space and saddle slots and a 1/16" for purfling and intricate stuff. The ukes get a butt joint right now in the future I will be doing a modified mortice with barrel nut ala Cumpiano and the guitars will be spanish heel. For the truss rod channel which will be inset with a carbon fiber rectangle 1/8" X 3/8" I was thinking a small router plane? and spokeshaves for the necks. Any advice Luthier or NOT is greatly appreciated! I used a block plane for the first time last night to shave the taper on the back of my uke and it was AWESOME!

Thanks for all the great info keep it coming! I wanna be a Neander Luthier!

[Steve Hamlin]

Truss rod channel could be done with a router plane, though a small plough plane may be a better choice (a Record 043 would be particularly good) - just remember to cut your channel before tapering the neck (damhikt) Could even use a scratch stock.

When cutting a discreet perling groove, rather than a stepped purfling/binding rebate, I use a purfling cutter or scratch stock. This is is just the same as stringing on furniture. Scratch stocks are great as they're quick to make and tailor to your purfling width. I use the same, together with whichever chisel's to hand, for binding rebates, alternately scoring and paring (the quick way's a dremel or router - but that's swearing on this board, and a slip is REALLY disappointing at this stage.)

For necks I mostly use rasps and scrapers together with a wide chisel and a stout knife (large violin knife) for the heel. I have been known to use a framer's slick to waste the taper quickly - but that's just me being oafish again.

Block planes are really handy. My absolute fave shavings are when flushing purfling and rosettes.

[Hank Knight]

I agree completely with Wilbur's comments and will add one additional point. While the flat between the edge and the hollow on a Japanese Chisel appears to be narrow, it is plenty sufficient for many sharpenings. Unless you are ham-fisted and sharpen with unnecessarily harsh abrasives, it will take a very long time to use up the original flat on a good Japanese chisel. The steel is very hard; and, once it is sharpened properly, it only requires modest touch-up with fine-grit finish stones to maintain the edge. These stones don't abrade much of the edge so you don't use up the steel very fast. If you do manage to use up the original flat, a little grinding of the back - the same procedure you use to flatten the back of a Western chisel - restores the flat and you're good to go. I use Japanese chisels regularly; they are my tools of choice. Absent some catastrophic injury to an edge, I don't expect to use up the original flats on my chisels in my lifetime.

My $.02.

Hank

[Zachary Bulacan]

Truss rod channel could be done with a router plane, though a small plough plane may be a better choice (a Record 043 would be particularly good)

I use a purfling cutter or scratch stock.


Thanks Steve but now Im looking at a LV plough plane:rolleyes: I like the fence aspect to help me keep it nice and straight.

Whats a scratch stock?:confused:

[David Weaver]

Hi Cliff,

Mike and David are correct. As you sharpen the chisel by grinding the bevel, you'll move the edge closer to the hollow. When you get very close to the hollow, that's the time to start grinding the back. As you grind the back, you will "move" the hollow back, so that you have more of the flat area in front of the hollow.

You can see how this works in the attached picture. This is the back side of a plane blade, but it applies to chisels as well. The blue line represents the flat areas of the back. The white is the hollow. If you grind the back of the blade on a waterstone, the red areas become part of the flat.

The hollows in Japanese chisels look deceptively deep, especially if they have that contrasting black color. They really are more shallow than they appear, so it doesn't take much grinding to move the flat back enough.

Tapping out a chisel is possible, but most chisels are narrow enough so that you don't really have to do this. Grinding the back side has been enough for chisels up to 42 mm wide in my hands. Multi-hollow chisels like the ones in your picture are less likely to need tapping out. Plane blades are much wider, so tapping out is more likely to be needed, but I've been able to manage the hollow by grinding the flat of the plane blade alone.

Speaking from recent experience, the multi-hollow chisels are also have fairly shallow hollows, so if you were to chip a blade out and need to work back toward the hollows, it doesn't take long to lap the hollow out in 10 minutes on something like norton 3x on a granite reference stone.

Now that I have used two different sets of japanese chisels, I probably won't be getting any more western chisels. They are so hard and so easy to sharpen to a sharp edge with the proper stones that you spend a lot less time fighting wire edges and trying to figure out of your chisel is as sharp as you think it is.

I do have some LN chisels, as well as stanley 750s, hirsch, witherby, ... and about 10 other brands. I like the toughness of the LNs - you can abuse them some, but the sharpness of the japanese chisels and how sharp they feel when they've been used for a bit and aren't perfectly sharp is awfully hard to let go of now.

If I was doing more showy work, like luthiery - as opposed to just being a hobbiest who diddles around with stupid stuff, I would definitely at least have my paring chisels be japanese (I'm assuming you're trimming bracing, etc) for the simple fact that the ease of getting them screaming sharp is in a different ball game.

[Steve Hamlin]

A scratch stock is essentially a stick with a slit to take a sliver of steel shaped to make custom grooves or mouldings. Worth a google - it's a great cheap tool made out of scrap wood and scraper/saw blade - an old jig saw blade works well enough.

[Zachary Bulacan]

A scratch stock is essentially a stick with a slit to take a sliver of steel shaped to make custom grooves or mouldings. Worth a google - it's a great cheap tool made out of scrap wood and scraper/saw blade - an old jig saw blade works well enough.

Thanks Steve do you have pics of the ones you use?

[Hank Knight]

Thanks Steve do you have pics of the ones you use?


FWW Online has a video by Garrett Hack that shows how to make and use a scratch stock. It is a simple but very effective tool. Here's the link:


http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=31290

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

FWIW, the correct "technique" is to "tap out" the hollows and reflatten the backs

That is all chinese to me. Reading that I am thinking that a hammer is used on the front side of the chisel to pound out the concave surfaces so that they are less concave.


This is an "acquired skill"

I'd guess it would be.


"SOP" for Japanese chisels and plane blades Yet another reason to avoid them.

[David Weaver]

That is all chinese to me. Reading that I am thinking that a hammer is used on the front side of the chisel to pound out the concave surfaces so that they are less concave.

I'd guess it would be.

Yet another reason to avoid them.

If you hone the backs while you're honing the bevel, you won't have much of an issue with the backs. If you'd rather, you can actually just grind the hollow out same as you would do any other back flattening.

It's not a real great reason to avoid them. I would guess that it became tradition before the days of norton 3x paper and diamond pastes.

I think I've seen machines that they use to tap them out so as to minimize the chance of damage, but you could just avoid using them and lap out the hollow pretty easily on good quality sandpaper.

[Hank Knight]

That is all chinese to me. Reading that I am thinking that a hammer is used on the front side of the chisel to pound out the concave surfaces so that they are less concave.

Yet another reason to avoid them.

Like many other aspects of woodworking, especialy hand tool woodworking, chisel selection is very subjective. Tools that are comfortable and effective for me don't work for the next guy. If Cliff doesn't care for Japanese chisels, for whatever reason, that's O.K. To each is own. But I think his posts denouncing Japanese chisels across the board and advising ALL to avoid them are unfortunate and a disservice to others who may be just starting along this road. Condemning a tool on the basis of perceptions that are not grounded in one's own experience is unfair. Japanese chisels are fine tools that many find suit their needs and style perfectly. In my experience, Cliff's concerns about them are unfounded, and my advice to anyone sliding down this slope is not to dismiss them out of hand. Give them a try and make up your own mind.

Hank

[Pam Niedermayer]

Hank, I couldn't agree more. It is so tiresome defending Japanese tools from those who have "heard" this and that or those who've only used very cheap versions probably made in China. I hate repeating myself, find it quite boring. I'd think those dismissing them would, too.

So, what I look for in these forums is experience. I want to hear how a tool someone's used worked out, or a technique someone's used affects a given process. I'm real tired of hearing uninformed gossip. I keep thinking that if I ignore this ignorance it will go away; but nnnnooooo, not a chance, it simply gets amplified with impunity.

Pam

[Charlie Mastro]

I have to chime in here too and agree with Hank & Pam and I'm sure Wilbur Pan would feel the same way. How many times do we who use Japanese tools everyday and have for over 30 years have to defend them against people who have limited if any knowledge of the tools of which thay have such little reguard. It just never ends does it Pam?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It is so tiresome defending Japanese tools from those who have "heard" this and that or those who've only used very cheap versions probably made in China.

Well you don't have to "defend" them to me. You choice in equipment isn't ever going to be under attack by my questions and reservations.

Ya know, some people enjoy rather a lot the process of learning new tricks. Me? I'd rather not have to learn new skills just to ply the craft I enjoy. So hammering chisels out or returning to the back flattening task to get more life from them just doesn't sound like my cup of tea.
Prolly it's just a question of "different strokes" and not your choices being under attack.

Mind you I'm not saying that some people won't attempt to do exactly that: attack the choices others make . I won't however. People who insist that you made a questionable or poor selection if you didn't by the machinery or tool or brand that they bought are just plain cRaZy (that's the clinical diagnosis).


I rather think that Hank's over reaction was unwarranted. I'll not attempt to do as he did by re-stating him and wrongly interpreting him in ways that he probably wouldn't have intended. I will however, suggest that my offering my opinions in a public forum is not subject to his censure. Rather it is my privilege and he may offer his own without stooping, as he did, to personal attack.

[lowell holmes]

I'm not a luthier, but I have the LV detail chisels. I normally use my LN bench and mortise chesels, but when I need them for fine detail or adjustments, the detail chisels are outstanding. I've never regretted the purchase. I have the LV skewed detail chisels as well.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Well you don't have to "defend" them to me. You choice in equipment isn't ever going to be under attack by my questions and reservations....

I rather think that Hank's over reaction was unwarranted. I'll not attempt to do as he did by re-stating him and wrongly interpreting him in ways that he probably wouldn't have intended. I will however, suggest that my offering my opinions in a public forum is not subject to his censure. Rather it is my privilege and he may offer his own without stooping, as he did, to personal attack.

Defend may have been a poor choice of words, but it does seem that Japanese chisels are under attack at times. And it's not that they're dissed that is so irritating and boring, it's that they're dissed by people who know nothing. This is just plain stupid and a waste of everyone's time. And I honestly don't see anyone overstating how good they are, those who use them offer plenty of caveats for new users. So why don't those of you who haven't given good Japanese chisels a good workout or trial simply shut up and talk instead about the chisels they use and can recommend or warn against. A couple of why's would be useful. There are enough informed opinions, we truly don't need to waste our time with uninformed opinions.

And no, no one is censured here; but we do learn who knows something fairly quickly. I saw nothing Hank said that could be called "over reaction." He was voicing a tedium that I've experienced over and over again here, he finally said something. I was much more bored, I hadn't intended saying anything at all. If ignorance wants to drive off discussion of Japanese tools for whatever reason (I think it has a lot to do with their cost, somehow it offends some people, and perhaps a learning curve), so be it, I'll just leave the forum eventually.

Pam

[John Dykes]

Enough boring to go 'round...

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

but it does seem that Japanese chisels are under attack at times. Well they are different and from what I've read in this thread alone they present different issues. So it's entirely reasonable for people to talk about those elements they have learned about that tend to cause them to shy away from them.
I guess that's part of why I don't see it as an attack on the choices of another to articulate those things which might drive me away from those same choices.

Hell Pam, I think it is pure irresponsibility for the manufacturer of any chisel to expect the purchaser to have to flatten the backs. But then there are people who see that as part of the experience. I see it as a pointless PITA that the manufacturer was superbly positioned to have addressed before they shipped 'em.




it's that they're dissed by people who know nothing."know nothing" is pretty strong language.
When you are exploring a thing you read things and listen to people. That may not be first hand but it's part of what comprises an entirely reasonable purchasing decision.



This is just plain stupid and a waste of everyone's time.What is? That Joe Schmoe might tell some one that he has learned XYZ and those things have put him off a certin thing? I rather suspect that it's a very good thing that people make the results of their seaches known. Some people make more dilligent searches than others but that's part of the human experience too.



And I honestly don't see anyone overstating how good they are, those who use them offer plenty of caveats for new users. So why don't those of you who haven't given good Japanese chisels a good workout or trial simply shut up and talk instead about the chisels they use and can recommend or warn against.Maybe it'd be best to not to internalize and make into a personal issue the things and information that people share with each other. Seems to me that some folks take things very personally that were never directed at them in the first place.


A couple of why's would be useful. There are enough informed opinions, we truly don't need to waste our time with uninformed opinions.Ya know that does sound a tad elitist.


And no, no one is censured hereYou bet your bippy.


but we do learn who knows something fairly quickly. Or possibly that some folks to have twitchy trigger fingers and take things too personally.


I saw nothing Hank said that could be called "over reaction." That's ok, I saw it just fine.



He was voicing a tedium that I've experienced over and over again here, he finally said something.I think he expressed an excessive level of unrealistic personalization of things that should have never troubled him.



If ignorance wants to drive off discussion of Japanese tools for whatever reason (I think it has a lot to do with their cost, somehow it offends some people, and perhaps a learning curve), so be it, I'll just leave the forum eventually.
See what I mean? You seem to have taken all this so very personally. As if it is some how an affront to your sensibilities that any one might share the negatives that have informed them to avoid a certain thing. You have expresses this sentiment over and over in your post here and over again as a form of "I'm better than you, and unless you are willing to travel a mile in my shoes then you have no right to speak." And Pam, that's pretty far out there. It's like you feel under attack so you have engaged in an attack of your own.


Don't worry is seventy three people a day say all the things that will discourage them from buying a tool that you have found great satisfaction in owning and using. Maybe those things are part and parcel of why you like 'em while at the same time part and parcel of why they might not like them.


Like I said: Different strokes.

If the guy who was asking about them in the first place sees those putative negatives and that person is like you are - - chances are good he'll say "Hey I think I like the sound of that." Where as if he's like me he might be glad that some one alerted him to the fact that there are issues.

And if it matters all that much to you to be evangelistic about Jap Chisels then, you go ahead and spread the good news. Any one would be just plain crazy to be offended by you saying that these "issues" are not issues to you. That you find so many good things that you recommend them whole heartedly.

Ya see, that wouldn't be slap to the guy who thinks they are negative issues. Rather it'd just be more information for the potential tool purchaser from the other direction.


Different strokes.

[Richard Niemiec]

Defend may have been a poor choice of words, but it does seem that Japanese chisels are under attack at times. And it's not that they're dissed that is so irritating and boring, it's that they're dissed by people who know nothing. This is just plain stupid and a waste of everyone's time. ...................So why don't those of you who haven't given good Japanese chisels a good workout or trial simply shut up .............If ignorance wants to drive off discussion of Japanese tools for whatever reason (I think it has a lot to do with their cost, somehow it offends some people, and perhaps a learning curve), so be it, I'll just leave the forum eventually.

Pam

Hey Pam, I ditto what Cliff said, you might be taking this a bit too personally, so just lighten up a bit, please.......

[Pam Niedermayer]

Well, if you can't win an argument on the basis of facts, simply yell that the other person is taking things too personally. Bah.

Pam

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Cliff,

This is what you wrote above.


That is all chinese to me. Reading that I am thinking that a hammer is used on the front side of the chisel to pound out the concave surfaces so that they are less concave.

I'd guess it would be.

Yet another reason to avoid them.

And this is what I wrote above your post, which you obviously missed.


Hi Cliff,

Mike and David are correct. As you sharpen the chisel by grinding the bevel, you'll move the edge closer to the hollow. When you get very close to the hollow, that's the time to start grinding the back. As you grind the back, you will "move" the hollow back, so that you have more of the flat area in front of the hollow.

You can see how this works in the attached picture. This is the back side of a plane blade, but it applies to chisels as well. The blue line represents the flat areas of the back. The white is the hollow. If you grind the back of the blade on a waterstone, the red areas become part of the flat.

The hollows in Japanese chisels look deceptively deep, especially if they have that contrasting black color. They really are more shallow than they appear, so it doesn't take much grinding to move the flat back enough.

Tapping out a chisel is possible, but most chisels are narrow enough so that you don't really have to do this. Grinding the back side has been enough for chisels up to 42 mm wide in my hands. Multi-hollow chisels like the ones in your picture are less likely to need tapping out. Plane blades are much wider, so tapping out is more likely to be needed, but I've been able to manage the hollow by grinding the flat of the plane blade alone.

Again, you don't really have to worry about tapping out with Japanese chisels, as long as you pay attention to how close the edge is to the hollow(s). And even if you back the edge into the hollows, simply flattening the back will fix that.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

you don't really have to worry about tapping out with Japanese chisels, as long as you pay attention to how close the edge is to the hollow(s). And even if you back the edge into the hollows, simply flattening the back will fix that.

I just know that sooner or later I'm going to be using a bench grinder on any edged tools I have. I think that'd prolly wreck 'em.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I just know that sooner or later I'm going to be using a bench grinder on any edged tools I have. I think that'd prolly wreck 'em.

Don't buy any laminated western edges, either.

Pam

[Zachary Bulacan]

I would like to thanks all those who gave me insight into there choice and the pros and cons of each type. I have decided to go with the LV detail chisel in 1/16" , 1/8" and 1/2" these will do what I need and don't cost an arm and a leg :)

[Hank Knight]

I would like to thanks all those who gave me insight into there choice and the pros and cons of each type. I have decided to go with the LV detail chisel in 1/16" , 1/8" and 1/2" these will do what I need and don't cost an arm and a leg :)

Good choice. :) Have fun and post photos of your work.

Hank

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Don't buy any laminated western edges, either.

Pam

Oh I wouldn't. The Damascus Saber tech' of splitting the lead edge of a sword and inserting the harder edge to get a sharpenable, edged, yet flexible weapon was OK in it's day but today modern tool steels have surpassed the reasons for doing so. There were some "great period" Jap' sword smiths who laminated a different type of steel into the lead edge of their swords too but They were in the minority.

There was a "damascus" style of making a shot guns that invoked wire wrapped and hammered around a form (a straight round bar of iron) to make up the barrel. They can't handle modern rounds.

[Eddie Darby]

Try selecting the chisel size that you think you would use the most and then try that one size in a top Japanese chisel. It is better ro have one top tool than 7 mediocre ones.

[Peter Quadarella]

There was a "damascus" style of making a shot guns that invoked wire wrapped and hammered around a form (a straight round bar of iron) to make up the barrel. They can't handle modern rounds.
That's unfair - they weren't built to. It has nothing to do with the style of build. Guns are built to handle the ammunition they use. A modern steel .44 special can't handle the pressures of a .44 magnum either.

Not that I know anything about Japanese chisels. Enough people like them that I would give them a try if I wanted to buy a new chisel though. I think you're right Cliff; some people just get a kick out of trying new stuff (I'm one of them), but often it's unnecessary and we'd be fine continuing on with what is already working for us.

[Hank Knight]

Let's let this thread pass quietly into history. The OP has made his chisel selection.

Hank

[Frank Drew]

There were some "great period" Jap' sword smiths who laminated a different type of steel into the lead edge of their swords too but They were in the minority.

I wasn't aware of this technique with Japanese swords but I'm certainly not a student of the subject. I thought the standard high-end method was to fold and refold (and refold) the blank of steel, maybe up to 15 times, creating a very strong lamination with umpteen layers (two to the fifteenth).

[David Weaver]

A quick reply to the earlier post about it being unreasonable to flatten the back of a chisel when you get it.

What brand of chisel have you gotten that you haven't had to lap or flatten the back of?

One set of japanese chisels (of mine) is faster to flatten and polish than any western chisel I've gotten my hands on, except LN chisels.

The other set is rounded on the back, and thanks to the suggestion of Wilbur and others who know more than I do, it will likely be true of the second.

They are not as fragile as people make them out to be and they are not as hard to prepare as people make them out to be. They are, however, easy (in relative terms) to get sharper (subjective, and by observation of results) than a lot of western chisels. Their hardness makes them stay sharp longer, too.

I don't see any reason not to try them if you have the budget to do so.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I wasn't aware of this technique with Japanese swords

Yah they did it a couple of ways.One was to split the lead edge and insert the hard bit along the cutting edge. The other was to use a larger chunk of metal the length of the blade for the lead edge and laminate that inside two or three other long pieces and then hammer the final shape of the sword. The latter was the most common.



I thought the standard high-end method was to fold and refold (and refold) the blank of steel, maybe up to 15 times, creating a very strong lamination with umpteen layers (two to the fifteenth).The process was much as you describe even as to the layered sandwiched swords The smith would collect ore on the surface in the bogs around edo and bizen and smelt them and pour them out into a thin very brittle iron puddle. When that hardened he'd crack it up into bits about the size od quarters and lay then onto paddle that he made from the left over metal of a prior sword.

He'd sprinkle it with borax and heat that till it was doughy not molten and beat the day lights out of it till he got into a bar shape. Then the folding began. Each time he'd sprinkle it with borax fold it and and pound away. Temperature control maintaining the correct doughy texture and keeping it from melting was important to creating the distinct laminations. They had to bond intimately but not merge onto one mass.

Some years ago I wrote a non fiction 43 page booklet (lots o' pictures ) on the smithing and metallurgy of the swords of the great era between 900 and 1530 AD. I never got it published. The purpose of the work was to de-mythologize the katana.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

What brand of chisel have you gotten that you haven't had to lap or flatten the back of?

See Garrett Hack and John S. Sheldon's book "Classic Hand Tools" for a pretty good discussion on this.
And conveniently there's a google books version online
http://tinyurl.com/5uaqxf
page 86

The whole book is really great. So many old tools you can make yourself are in really good high res photographs.




I don't see any reason not to try them if you have the budget to do so.I prolly will sometime but, I'm more likely to buy that $600.00 set of hand made socket handle chisels in the English tradition because it's the chisel format with which I have familiarity.

[Joel Goodman]

Not to beat a dead horse but --- I don't know if the AI chisels sold by Joel at TWW were flat when I got them but they were flattened very quickly when I first honed them.

[Mike Henderson]

And conveniently there's a google books version online
http://tinyurl.com/5uaqxf
page 86

The whole book is really great. So many old tools you can make yourself are in really good high res photographs.

The link doesn't work, Cliff. Would you post again, please? I'd like to look up that book.

Mike

[I found it. I went to Google Books and searched on "Classic Hand Tools".]

[David Weaver]

See Garrett Hack and John S. Sheldon's book "Classic Hand Tools" for a pretty good discussion on this.
And conveniently there's a google books version online
http://tinyurl.com/5uaqxf
page 86

The whole book is really great. So many old tools you can make yourself are in really good high res photographs.



I prolly will sometime but, I'm more likely to buy that $600.00 set of hand made socket handle chisels in the English tradition because it's the chisel format with which I have familiarity.

You need not spend quite so much for japanese chisels if you watch ebay and pick up sets used. I purchased a set for less than that, and substantially less than that with the microsoft deal ($365 for 10) - of white steel multi-hollow bench chisels. What little I've used them, they leave a nicer surface than any of my western chisels, and they are fairly easy to sharpen - easier than the A2 chisels (which means probably a lot easier than D2). If they get better with age, as wilbur says, then they are a steal. As we've been arguing on another forum, they won't necessarily make my work better, but they sure do make it feel nice to do it.

Shortly before that, I believe a 10 piece set of matsumura cabinetmaker's chisels went for about $380. I don't know if they were blue or white steel - I don't know if the blue steel is a whole lot more than just a case of giving us what we asked for here - sort of like how leonard lee put it with the lapped backs of the irons on LV planes - lapped to 0.0001 or .0002 in flatness - that it's purely an issue of giving the customer what they want, and stopping people from calling in and claiming that something they got is critically out of spec.

Anyway, buy used with that $600 and you could have one of each (japanese and english cabinetmaker's chisels).

Or don't. But don't skip out on the other types because you think there is something inherently wrong with them - that's not the case.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

The link doesn't work, Cliff. Would you post again, please? I'd like to look up that book.

Mike

[I found it. I went to Google Books and searched on "Classic Hand Tools".]

http://books.google.com/books?id=T4m6kq7XyIUC&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=Flattening+the+back+of+chisel&source=web&ots=svnsfQNy28&sig=g3i9np9rmc7xrrIRDC2xhAE-DHM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result

see if that works.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

if you watch ebay

The Flea Bay has been not my friend lately with so many people willing to pay what often seems like twice retail for used


(which means probably a lot easier than D2). D2 is a good steel for cold heading dies and 4 slide dies but as a chisel steel I'd guess that it'd be too gooey. It's a really tough abrasive resistant tool steel. definitely not the toolmaker's first choice for a punch and die as the steel doesn't take an edge well. Did you mean to say M2 (HSS)~?

Yah the $600.00 Austrialian hand made chisels won't make my work any better either. But they shore are purdy.



I don't know if the blue steel is a whole lot more than just a case of giving us what we asked for here -
Blue (unless it's an application like gun bluing) ought to be a spring steel temper if the metal in question is O1 (about 48 RC). I haven't a clue what the term "white steel" means


sort of like how leonard lee put it with the lapped backs of the irons on LV planes - lapped to 0.0001 or .0002 in flatness - that it's purely an issue of giving the customer what they want, and stopping people from calling in and claiming that something they got is critically out of spec. HA Ha I bet they don't say that it's "0.0001 to 0.0002 TIR." how many woodcutters can measure a tenth of a thou' anyway~?




But don't skip out on the other types because you think there is something inherently wrong with them - that's not the case.Oh not "wrong"~!! If the chisels in the Jap tradition were inferior, the Japanese would have to be way better than the rest of the world just to keep up. In which case they'd be smart enough to make better chisels.

Just different enough to be a tad off putting.
Off putting to whom, would be the question.