Pros - Who Are They and Where Are They?

[Mike Shields]

My elementary posts have been answered by those with obviously, a tremendous amount of experience. So, I'm wondering, if these individuals are not hobbyists, well then they must be the (only?) other type of woodworker: a professional.

My closest experience with what I would call a professional is when the wife and I bought furnture (bedroom suite and dining room table and hutch) from Woodley's Fine Furniture in Colorado. Yes, before I started woodworking! This business has several store locations, and everything is made to order (wood type, finishing, hardware) from catalogs, and thus a limited selection.

So:

1. What defines a "professional" woodworker, and what do they produce?

2. How do you go about finding a professional? I mean, do they advertise in the Yellow Pages?

[Matt Day]

Yes, some of them do advertise in the Yellow Pages and I've seen them under "Cabinets" or "Furniture". I think a lot professionals work by word of mouth and recommendations/referals though.

[Tyler Howell]

You'd be surprised what they produce. I'll give you part of an answer because I've observed and admire so many WWs here. So many are specialized and may do just drawers/doors or just stair railings to just bird calls or just guitars, or bowls to wooden boats. All for a profit we hope:rolleyes:.
Some do just one of a kind artistic items and others teach.
My fellow WWs will fill you in with more ideas. One of the locals builds guitars in winter and runs an outfitters post the rest of the time. He's as professional as the come.

My best luck has been from word of mouth. Satisfied coustomers will always tell you why, disatified will tell you why not.

[Frank Drew]

Mike,

I think that the definition of a professional woodworker would be that he or she earns a significant amount of their income from woodworking. For the record, I think that one can be a serious woodworker without being a professional woodworker, but the latter category implies at least a certain level of engagement in the work.

Many, if not most, will have a listing in their local yellow pages, for a time anyway; I finally dropped my listing because none of my clients had found me that way, so why bother?

[Mike Keers]

on that one. By the strictest definition a pro would simply make money from his woodworking, but in my circles you need to make all or a significant portion of your income from the work at least, and usually you're not taken seriously unless you're 'legal'. There will always be guys building cabinets and stuff out of their garage or pickups.

I design and build furniture, both commissioned work and spec studio furniture. I'm registered and licensed with the county and state as a business, with a copyrighted name, I have a license from the county to conduct a business at my home (my shop is on my own acreage) and I could have retail sales here as well as 'manufacturing', but choose not to. A tax number from the state allows me to buy materials and supplies tax-free on a 'sale for resale' basis, and I have to collect sales tax on my sales and file and pay every month. The only way I could be more 'real' would be to incorporate in some manner (LLC probably), an unnecessary step in my case. Oh, I have a cell phone for business only, to keep the home number and work separate, and that's the only number I give out. Nothing less professional than calling a 'business' and hearing kids and dogs and the TV blaring in the background...it's hard enough being taken seriously with the 'work at home' stereotype.

I used to advertise, but like Frank found little to no work came from it, or work I wasn't interested in ('Do you install skylights?' Uhhh, no, I make custom furniture. 'But you're a carpenter...').

Most of my commissioned work, both commercial and residential is by word of mouth. I do a two-day outdoor arts festival in the Fall that results in direct sales and commissions, and I have two galleries representing me for studio furniture I build on spec. I have a poorly maintained web-site (I'm too busy making billable sawdust), but have never had any direct sales from it, I use it as my catalog for prospective clients.

My situation keeps me as busy as I want to be and usually pays a fair wage. But I'd starve if my wife didn't have her own business to pay the daily stuff. For large commissions I get 50% down which covers materials to get started, and the balance on delivery. If it takes me a month or three to deliver, I'm essentially working for nothing all that time, until I collect anyway. Big pay checks but far apart. :rolleyes:

[Mitchell Andrus]

I'm what I would consider a 'pro' - have been for 12 years. It isn't easy, I spent $9K on advertizing (website costs and 1 show expenses included) in 2007 and have yet to spend less than a full week in the shop in the last 12 years or more. I'm busy and turn work away at times. I've never taken a job just to 'keep busy'.

Professional in workmanship, demeanor, attitude toward the craft, respect for the client = PRO.

Don't get me wrong, part-timers building/installing TV cabinets on weekends can be pros too and have my utmost respect if they do a good job and respect the craft, but there's a slight difference if he mows lawns or drills teeth M-F.

"Pro" to me means making a comfortable income from your shop. I do.

Early on, I considered participating in but passed on shows that would have placed me next to the lady that sold candle holders with glitter glued on them. She considered herself a 'pro', no doubt.
.

[Chuck Saunders]

Early on, I considered participating in but passed on shows that would have placed me next to the lady that sold candle holders with glitter glued on them. She considered herself a 'pro', no doubt.
.
She probably considered herself an "artist":)

[William OConnell]

I would say there's all kinds of professional woodworkers. From timber framers down to inlay makers. Me personally I started framing houses and over the years it seems the work has become more refined. The tool arsenal has grown tremendously and so has my ability to build just about anything. I'm totally reliant on word of mouth and referals from architects and GCs in my area. The yellow pages is alot of money here and for the woodworking business its a waste of money, at least here it is. Like some of the guys here I have a wesite not so much as an avenue to sell things but as a virtual portfolio. It helps with the sale. I'm at my desk right now bidding a job with alot of detail on the blueprints. While I was at his house I took him and his wife to my site and showed them some pictures of work wich was exactly what he wanted.
The longer your in business and the larger the customer base the larger the referal base becomes. I do just about any type of carpentry , millwork, or woodwork that pays the right price. I'll hang doors, skylights, windows, cedar siding, built ins, mouldings, etc. If I'm going to use the word professional, and I do, my work needs to look it always. I also need to be compensated like a professional too.
I liked what Mitch said
"Professional in workmanship, demeanor, attitude toward the craft, respect for the client = PRO. "
The job I'm looking at the homeowner actually said I want it to look like a professional did the work. I'm glad he said that because where I live that thins the herd quite a bit. I'm surrounded by imposters here and often bid the same jobs.

[Mike Keers]

Watch that stuff! To paraphrase an old favorite saying, 'Yesterday I couldn't spell 'arteest', and today I are one!" :p

I had to embrace that whole field once I wanted to break into studio furniture. It's a whole different thing than working with individual clients, whether commercial or individuals. Yup, I've had my own several shows at two galleries with the 'meet the artist ' receptions and schmoozing the clientèle and all the cocktails and finger food and the harp player in the corner. I'm not really comfortable at that type of thing, but it's part of the game. I had hoped to be billed as an eccentric artist and not have to do the booze and schmooze--"Oh, he's a recluse, he never comes out of his cave...er... studio". :D

I've only tried to expand into the gallery and art circles for the past four years, and while it hasn't been as lucrative yet as I'd hoped, it does produce sales, my name and rep are getting out there and the studio furniture is higher end stuff to begin with, plus it leads to commissions. I always have a spec piece or three I'm working on out in the shop.

Mitchell, the one show I do is a juried fine art show, they have artists and craftspeople from all over the country attend and they reject the Christmas Bazaar crowd. And by 'crafts people' I don't mean the glitter candle holders, but Native American silversmiths that will be working away right at the show, carvers, turners, etc and of course the 'real artists', painters and so forth. There are three or four furniture guys at 'my' show out of 250 vendors, and we each have our own niche, so it's a good variety and no direct competition. I've become known as 'the table guy' because left to myself, that's what I enjoy making and that' what sells around here. And I always make at least one truly off the wall 'art' piece that draws the crowd in. I do get repeat sales too. No patrons yet, but at least two collectors that buy one or two things every year.

As some of you know, there's a whole show circuit for studio or artisan furniture and furnishings, both open to the public and some 'private' shows for galleries and wholesalers looking for new product. The problem with that show scene, is that rightfully it needs to become a lifestyle to be profitable and effective I think. I know the guys that spend half the year making pieces, then they load up the truck and trailer and hit the road for the show circuit for six months, exhibiting at all the usual suspects, the Philly furniture show, NY, San Fran, etc, There can be a ton of money to be made that way I'm told, but I'm a home body these days.

And those larger juried furniture shows can be awfully expensive to enter, some up to $5k to get in, but exhibitors report $50k in sales, so it's all relative. There's one out here that gets $1200 for a 10x10 booth. I've got a 15x35 space at the outdoor one I do, with a big tent and the displays and work to fill it, and the cost works out to about the same 10% of anticipated gross sales. We average about 18,000 people over two days, not too bad.

[Mike Shields]

...If I'm going to use the word professional, and I do, my work needs to look it always. I also need to be compensated like a professional too.




Professional in workmanship, demeanor, attitude toward the craft, respect for the client = PRO.

Two statements that should award anyone who stands behind they're meanings with a continued profitable and respected business.

These are the kind of people I wish to meet with every task that I'm unable to do myself, and thus hire someone to do for me.

Too bad professionalism is not more common.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

on that one. By the strictest definition a pro would simply make money from his woodworking,

And that is a dreadful misuse use of the word "pro" - or professional.

A journeyman tradesman in this craft is a rare and exquisite thing. It's bad enough that most of us have to learn our skills in isolation (it was way worse before the Internet-S). But the vocational application of these skills is so rare and few that finding some one with whom to apprentice while you are still young and at a wage that allows you to eat is almost impossible.

[mark page]

Am I a pro--No, Do others think I'm a pro--most do, Do others that call me a pro have the ability to qualify a pro--No, Do I make money woodworking--Yes, Do I make a living woodworking--No, Do I want to do woodworking as a sole only income--Hell No. Now that all that's out of the way, let me explain myself. I may take commissions, but I get to pick and choose what I want with no completion dates. When I get it done, it gets done. If I feel like working in the shop I do, if I don't, I won't. And I have to admit I have been very lazy in the shop lately. I don't do cabinets, except maybe a built-in bookcase every once in a while, and will do crown molding if I feel up to it. I do like doing furniture, and home decorations, things I can complete in my shop without working inside someone's home. I have a main source of income from the daily job and do not have to worry about paying the bills of being a business owner and all the other headaches that come with that. Do I advertise--No it's all word of mouth and referrals. I have a love for woodworking that I do not want to destroy by making it my main source of income/headaches. Now comes the big question that everyone has to ask themselves--Do I think I could make a living woodworking--Me--No, just because I do not have the right frame of mind to make it a business, I guess I would not be very good at it. Just my personal thoughts.

[Peter Quinn]

I work in a professional cabinet and millwork shop. We have made the odd piece of furniture, and many things verging on it, but most of what i make would properly be called millwork. Moldings, trim (interior and exterior), passage doors, cabinets and cabinet doors, and a vast array of things made of wood. Presently the shop I work for is making a series of rather complex arched entries for a historical restoration, an out door teak kitchen, several hundred lineal feet of victorian/japanese garden fence and gates, a mahogany tea pagoda, and a small custom kitchen. There is also a study quantity of moldings, flooring, stair parts and such being produced between work on larger jobs. The owner has built a very solid business over the years producing many things from wood. Not even sure the number is in the yellow pages. I'm told he started off making furniture in his barn but evolved into millwork almost by accident. We are not carpenters, we are not builders, we are occasionally if begrudgingly installers. Think machinist but with wood instead of metal.

I have my own small business for side work for which I have an LLC. 100% of my work is word of mouth. I get more calls than I can accommodate. I'm presently finishing up a series of storm windows, starting a standing desk commission, and considering a few other projects. I have gotten calls from people through referrals asking for things ranging from decks to additions to generic strip flooring, which while made of wood are not what I do. Decks require a license here, additions require a more stringent license, and strip flooring is best made in a factory unless the species is unique, in which case it is best made in a custom factory!:D I can't imagine what calls I might receive if i advertised "Professional Woodworker for Hire".

I agree with the statements above regarding a pro's behavior and compensation. As usual Mr. O'Connell has nailed it square. I have had a few prospective clients offended at what I consider my very gentle rates by local standards, others wondering why the same work was so cheap. When ever I encounter a haggler I smile politely and encourage them to consider all their options as I pack my things and run. I'm in the business of giving good customers my complete attention and my best work, but I am not a retail business intent on suffering the abuses of every individual that comes my way. Respect is a two way street in my world.

I had one happy client amused after a small installation that commented, "This looks like it was made in a factory, by machines!". I asked, "Do you want me to rough it up a bit? Did you want something more rustic? Should I antique it a bit?. She laughed, "No, I'm thrilled, I just assumed it would look sort of, well, hand made like something my husband had created. Kind of cobbled together. It just looks so...professional." I considered it a compliment, particularly after she called for more work.

As long as there are trees I think there will be craftsman making things from wood. Some things more artistic, some things more pedestrian, lots in between.

[Jeff Duncan]

Some interesting thoughts have been expressed here already but to keep it simple, in answer to your first question,

"1. What defines a "professional" woodworker, and what do they produce?"

A professional is simply someone who's profession is woodworking. Yes it's really that simple. Sure all the other stuff is fine for discussion, but I make a living building cabinetry, it's my profession. That doesn't mean I'm any good, or that I handle myself in a so called "professional manner", which is of course a matter of opinion anyway. It doesn't even mean I know what I'm doing, "and believe me there are plenty out there who don't"! It just means this is what I do to make a living.


"2. How do you go about finding a professional? I mean, do they advertise in the Yellow Pages? "

Yes and no, some do advertise and some don't. I don't advertise but I do have my business listed in the yellow pages. Most of my business comes from referrals and builders so I don't advertise. Of course you could also look around online. These days there's so much information available online you may find a couple local shops with just a few clicks of the mouse.
good luck,
JeffD

[Jim Becker]

I kinda agree with Jeff's point #1. While we would all like to think that "Professional" might always be equated to "high skill levels", we all know that's not necessarily so. That word is more about the money stream. And with woodworking, things are quite interesting...we have so many folks who share our passion for working with wood and have incredible skills in doing so, but do it purely for enjoyment, rather than for income. Therefore, it's important that we separate "Professional" from "Craftsman". There are many here who fit both labels...SMC seems to draw folks like that. And so many more who fit the latter description. In both cases, our community is fortunate!

[Billy Chambless]

I kinda agree with Jeff's point #1. While we would all like to think that "Professional" might always be equated to "high skill levels", we all know that's not necessarily so. That word is more about the money stream. And with woodworking, things are quite interesting...we have so many folks who share our passion for working with wood and have incredible skills in doing so, but do it purely for enjoyment, rather than for income. Therefore, it's important that we separate "Professional" from "Craftsman".

Heh. Right after Katrina, I had some "professional contractors" in here who proved your first point.

From an interview with James Krenov: http://www.aaa.si.edu/collections/oralhistories/tranSCRIPTs/krenov04.htm



MR. FITZGERALD: I read that you began making furniture professionally in 1960. Is that correct?
MR. KRENOV: I’ve never made furniture professionally.
MR. FITZGERALD: Well, that you sold furniture.
MR. KRENOV: Yes. Well, I’m an amateur and I always will be. That’s the way I want to die. I’m an amateur by nature and I’m an amateur in fact. And David Pye wrote somewhere that the best work of this century would certainly be done by amateurs.


I vaguely remember an article in FWW in the early 80s entitled "Stepping up to Amateur Status" in which the author told how the compromises involved in maintaining the revenue stream frustrated him so badly that he closed down his custom furniture shop and got a "day job" so he could practice craftsmanship without regard to profitability.


None of the above should be taken as a slam on folks who make their living at woodworking; obviously there are some excellent craftsmen who make a living at their craft.

[Neal Clayton]

i'm kinda in the boat billy is describing. restoring and recreating all of the stuff from a 1908 house. and i'm of the opinion that things with such history should only be replaced with a spot on match visually that's superior in design. after all, our modern tools would make those guys from the turn of the century green with envy at how quickly and easily we can build things. why shouldn't we build better things due to that?

could i commission all this stuff? maybe, but it would be outrageously expensive, and even then maybe not possible. i can appreciate the fact that most professionals can't justify spending months to make my millwork, doors, and windows at a reasonable price to my exacting specifications.

so i do it myself. the guy i've hired to help me has worked construction for many years before he retired and is a licensed electrician, and being the son of a real estate developer i grew up on job sites, so we have a pretty good idea of right and wrong and figure the rest out as we go.

when we're done i want "better than you can buy" so that's what we'll have ;).

[jim oakes]

MR. KRENOV: I’ve never made furniture professionally.

Yes James , you're just a neighborhood woodbutcher who slaps 2x4's together and calls it "furniture".
That's a great interview. It seems to me that Mr Krenov could be called an eccentric,unique craftsman and a pro. I would not call him a high pressure salesman.

I was what most people would call a pro woodworker for years. To me that means I made a living doing woodwork.

I ran adds in the yellow pages. I got some work from the adds the first couple years, but then just went to the free one line listing. I got a lot of calls that took up my valuable shoptime from people asking stuff like" my mom has this thing that needs a board cut of just a little bit, how much does that cost?" I got tired of that,so I had a standard $100 minimum and would tell people early on in the call.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

1. What defines a "professional" woodworker, and what do they produce?

Properly speaking as professional is a person who has given themselves (professed) over to a higher cause such as medicine, theology, education, law etc.

The term "professional" says absolutely nothing about whether the person is any good at what they do or whether they earn a dime doing it.

Now a tradesman is another thing altogether. And a Journeyman is yet another thing still.

I'd much prefer to have a skilled tradesman take apart and re assemble the front end of my car any day over some idiot professional who only thinks they know how to torque the ball joint bolts in.




2. How do you go about finding a professional? I mean, do they advertise in the Yellow Pages?Throw a rock up in the air these days and chances are when it falls, it'll hit a "professional" who is also unemployed. You'll know for sure when he thrusts his resume at you.

On the other hand if you want to find a skilled tradesman you will first have to decide whether you want a cabinet maker / furniture maker or an artist. The former will advertise in the phone book and the latter will be found in galleries and shown in journals and magazines that cater to such things.

[Tony Bilello]

1). A woodworking professional is simply a person that does woodworking for money. This in no way implies any sort of quality, craftsmanship or "professionalism". Just that he charges money.

2) As some have said earlier, most true artists and craftsmen dont advertise. Most of their business comes from word of mouth and by clients that dont have too much of a problem spending it. They usually do run a listing in the Yellow Pages just in case someone forgets their phone number.
How do you find these Artisans ans Craftsmen? There are several ways: Ask architects or decorators, these professions use craftsmen all of the time. Check out you local Art Center, usually craftsmen and woodworking artisans all know each other. The whole trick to finding the 'right' one is to look at their work. Brocures and photos dont reveal everything.

Tony B

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It has nothing to do with charging money. Such is a modern error of misapplication of the word.
That would be "vocation." or "trade" or "avocation."

Latin is the foundational language from which the word "professional" and all it’s forms arise. It became an English word subsequent to its use by the early church VIA France.

The Oxford English Dictionary ( OED) first places the word’s use around 1420.
The use then was as to "pertaining or making entrance into a religious order."The word “professional” was almost unused entirely till about 1747 when it’s meaning was "pertaining to, proper to, or connected with one's profession or calling."

The OED’s lists the word "profess" as the root of the word “professional.” The OED goes on to inform that prior to 1500 it’s connotations were mostly religious. Common secular application of the word "profess" as a verb arises around 1510, where it begins to take on the meaning "to make one's profession" in general.

The bastardation of the noun form "professional" began around 1811 as "one who makes a profession or business of any occupation."

Deconstructed the word has 4 component parts. They are "pro," "fes," "ion," and "al." All four elements are Latin.

The root term "profess" comes from the Latin word "profiteor" "to acknowledge, confirm, promise, confess." The Latin past participle of this word is "professus." This is the basis of it’s English usage The original Latin word two parts: "pro" (meaning towards) and "fiteor" (meaning is a Latin verb form of the verb "fateor", meaning "to confess, admit, allow, reveal, make known") When a person "professes" that person is making an admission a confession of something usually in a public manner. “Pro" is the part that connotes an open public statement. The "ion" part is a Latin word ending converts a verb form into a noun in a very specific manner which the English usage duplicates almost precisely. In English a verb "to act" is converted into a noun by adding “ion” and getting the world: "action."When the word is “professionalism” the last part of the word is “alism.” This derives from yet another Latin way to end a word ending: "alem." The Latin “alem” converts a noun into an adjective ( of or pertaining to).

The medieval French forms of the world have entered English usage almost unchanged.

From the OED there are some examples of the words “profess,” “profession,” and “professional” usage in regular application:

From 1300: "Ac mi professioun ich habbe to Jesu Crist ido."

From 1315: "Relessed Schel hym naught be religioun, Though he be naught professed."

From 1386, "Nay quod this Monk by god and by seint Martyn..This swere I yow on my profession." (Chaucer; “Shipman's Tale”)

From 1420: "Hit was hurre professhennalle rynge," ( referring to the ring one wore to announce one’s religious affiliation – as what order you belonged to )


It is inescapable in these examples that the application is as to some grave oath mostly religious which today might be served by the word “vow.”

[Tony Bilello]

And I thought I was smoking some good stuff.

Tony B

[Peter Quadarella]

Ah but Cliff, this thread is a greater authority on the meaning of the word than any dictionary or linguistics book. Or should I say "current meaning"? Since all words, and all language changes over time, it is worthwhile to stop and contemplate, now and again, the meaning we ascribe to certain words in order to ascertain whether said meaning has shifted or changed.

For illustrative purposes, I can recommend this excellent work, which is engaging, instructive, and highly enjoyable. The subject of the book is as it's title suggests: The Unfolding of Language: An Evolutionary Tour of Mankind's Greatest Invention (http://www.amazon.com/Unfolding-Language-Evolutionary-Mankinds-Invention/dp/0805080120/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218583354&sr=8-1) by Guy Deutscher.

;)

[Rick Fisher]

If you do it for money, your a "Pro". If your not good at it, you probably wont last as a "Pro".

There are as many unskilled pro's as skilled amatures. Pro just means you make your living, or a piece of it, doing it.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
I'm with Cliff on this.
There's a lot more to a "professional" than simply trading time for money.

By the now common usage of "professional", I'd qualify as one.:rolleyes:

Personally, I think the term "professional", has undertaken more of a marketing turn than an actual description of what someone is or does.
Heck even a "licensed professional" is a gimmick at times.
(Back in 1984 I sold cars for a living. My second day on the job, I filled out the forms and *presto!!!*, I was a "licensed professional" automobile salesman in the state of Ohio - didn't know diddly about the industry, but hey, I was "legit".)

On a non-WW'ing level, I hold several IT industry certifications which proclaim I'm some sort of *engineer*.
I'm not.
I don't build bridges or drive a locomotive ;).
I'm a technician - an engineers best friend or worst nightmare :D

Actually - I've found in my 56 years on Earth - and with the contact that I've had in those years with "pro's" of all types - that a "true professional", in any discipline, adheres strictly to this line from a sign seen at many business named: "What is a Customer?"
-"A customer is not an interruption of our work. He is the purpose of it."

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Since all words, and all language changes over time, it is worthwhile to stop and contemplate, now and again, the meaning we ascribe to certain words in order to ascertain whether said meaning has shifted or changed.

You are absolutely correct. American English is a colloquially driven language. Unlike the French who have an "official language" and even have a government bureau that oversees it. In the USA there is no authoritative source to which one can look to determine the usage, meaning, spelling, pronunciation, or enunciation of any word. They are all (quite literally) up for grabs.

And you are also correct and I am being a PITA~!
I'm just being a stickler for the older use of the word "professional." I think it's cleaner and more clear. That's part of why I think that efforts to shift these words around are ill concieved.

The word professional is so terribly misused that the ill-educated even use it to refer to how one dresses.
And the common predilection of using as a stand in for "vocation," I find infuriating.

This not merely because there are perfectly good words that do a better, cleaner, clearer job at expressing that one earns a living from something but also that the colloquial misuse of the word is at its most fundamental a derivative of personal insecurity and pretentiousness - inter alia.

What is wrong with being a "tradesman" or even a millworker~? All the vocations are dignified and need no dressing up. The engineer, millworker, accountant, machinist, etc., etc., all of them make the planet whirl and go. Without them the planet would grind to a halt. You can't say that about any of the professions. The world might even be better off without 'em. Yet the grasping for the airs remains. Why?

I remember back in the 1960's when a very great number of United States families' were seeing their very first generation of kids graduating from college. The first in a whole family line with a college degree~!! It was a big deal.
These kids got treated like greek gods. Unlike theoir fathers (whose labor put them through college) they didn't get their hands dirty and they wore nice cloths to work, with white collars.

The kids started identifying themselves by what it was they did. At social gatherings (picknics BBQs church gatherings etc.) their "vocation" (not profession) was announced. " Meet my son George. He's a (fill in the blank)." Yet no one introduced his father as a Millworker. "Hi meet George's father. He's a millworker."
It just never happened that way. And the insecutiry started to set in.
The crazy idea took hold that: "You are what you do for a living" and if you got your hands dirty or took orders you werren't good enough.

It didn't take long before every one (it seemes) was adopting new fancy terms to describe what they did.

"Engineer" soon came to be appended to nearly everything a man did for a living. Eventually that became a laughing stock not to mention that the real engineers were on the attack. Their "title" was being stolen by those who had not earned it. At least not the way they imagined that it should be earned.

Secretaries were "Administrative assistants."
Every one was seeking some kind of pretentious title" to make them feel better about that thing they did from 9 - 5 to earn a buck. It was like the rest of their lives didn't matter.

Eventually "professional" became the go-to word by which people sought to scrape a little dignity around their vocation.

And it was all because people were self-identifying by that which they earned their income while at the same time being unhappy that they were not among the imagined elite class who had the college diploma and wore white shirts.


Go figure. I was a tradesman and I was (and remain) damn proud of it. I still am that tradesman. You can engrave it on my coffin.

[Paul Girouard]

I'm with Cliff on this I've argued his same points not as well as he's done.

Doctor's, lawyer's , accountant's etc professional's. Guy who work with their hands for a living are tradesman's, journeymen as the trade or journey never ends there's always something to learn.

Nice job Cliff:cool:

[J.R. Rutter]

The journey never ends regardless of the profession, or trade. It is fun and interesting to philosophize about it, but I think that it is always a judgement as to whether or not someone is a "true" professional. At a base line level it is easy to tell, but after a basic level of competence is reached, it is in the eye of the beholder.

I have a cabinet door shop and we certainly do our best to put together coherent packages for the shops that we work with. I always tell my guys that the real customer is the person who will be opening that door every day. Will he or she be pleased or annoyed by that interaction?

And while I am listed in the yellow pages, I do not have an ad or advertise...

[Frank Drew]

Cliff and friends,

You're overthinking this. And I also note a misunderstanding of the commonly understood meanings of the terms journeyman and avocation (vs vocation).

Professional ballplayer, professional violinist, professional cabinetmaker... all these imply significant income from the named activity. [I agree, though, that the term "professional" all by itself has come to mean a member of the learned professions such as medicine, law, architecture....]

It doesn't have to be any more complicated than Rick's definition:

"If you do it for money, you're a "Pro". If you're not good at it, you probably won't last as a "Pro"."

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Professional ballplayer, professional violinist, professional cabinetmaker... all these imply significant income from the named activity.

That's exactly what I mean when I talk about how the word has come to be completely bastardized.
A professional has professed - given over his life to some higher cause. Money and skill have nothing to do with it.


[I agree, though, that the term "professional" all by itself has come to mean a member of the learned professions such as medicine, law, architecture....]

College education is also not any where on the mark. No amount of education renders a thing a profession.

That 250 pound half retarded guy with a second grade education who sits on a beach in Australia every day scanning the water for signs of distress and then proceeds to rescue the drowning victim is a Professional. He has given his life over to the higher cause of saving life.
That's it there is nothing more ( or less) to it.

And the guy does not even have to be paid. Money is irrelevant. Education is irrelevant. It's the "calling" that makes it so.

I know, I am bucking the modern trend. But the modern trend is wrong.

[Frank Drew]

That 250 pound half retarded guy with a second grade education who sits on a beach in Australia every day scanning the water for signs of distress and then proceeds to rescue the drowning victim is a Professional. He has given his life over to the higher cause of saving life.

Or maybe he's just an obsessive/compulsive, or an idiot savant.

If you want to cling to an archaic and no longer used meaning of a word, that's fine, but prepare to be misunderstood and frustrated that the rest of the population doesn't share your definition; language moves on and one of the points about language is that there needs to be a common understanding of the meaning of words. A few hundred years ago venison used to mean all game meats, but now the word is understood to mean the meat from deer; if you serve up rabbit and call it venison, prepare for some raised eyebrows and confused dinner guests.


Professional:

1.following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder. 2.of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies. 3.appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity. 4.engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person. 5.following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer. 6.making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.” 7.undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball. 8.of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment. 9.done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs. –noun 10.a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions. 11.a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional. 12.an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro. 13.a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

[Mike Keers]

interesting comments. Curiously, when I first responded the issue of competency or skill level never entered my mind, since I never have felt there was any connection between the term and the quality of the work itself. I inferred the question to apply to how a 'professional' (however you describe it) 'presents themselves' and conducts themselves. That's why my answer focused on all the issues that pertain to that angle.

I still feel (for me) the word in it's basic sense simply means I do it as my sole profession and source of income, and I conduct myself and my business as a business, with appropriate licensing etc.

Hey, all those 'other professionals' mentioned above--Liars, doctors, etc...aren't they just 'practicing'? Scary thought. Let me know when they get it down proficiently, I don't want nobody practicing on me!

Now we'll probably have the Pedantic's Handbook version of the etymology of 'practice'. :rolleyes:

[Mike Keers]

Above the fold the sainted Mr. Krenov was quoted on his self-proclaimed 'amateur' status. That was a bit out of context IIRC, and in the original writings, he defined amateur and pro (to paraphrase) as an 'amateur' doing the work because he loves it, for the sake of the work, while a professional was under the gun to churn out product because he had to, it was his job.

The difference, he implies, is whether you are doing woodworking because you love it and want to (even if somebody might be paying you big bux for making a piece), or you 'have to' to eat. (my words) He felt the quality of a professional, in that frame, might suffer since there's a profit motive and the need to cut corners, etc. with an eye to the clock.

[Tom Walz]

You can be a ‘hobbyist’ and still have a tremendous amount of knowledge. Einstein was a professional patent office clerk. Math / Physics was a hobby for him.

[Mike Keers]

and I'm sure many 'hobbyists' do work as fine or better than some self-proclaimed 'professionals'. I personally don't refer to myself as a 'professional' (other than in the context of this thread). I simply say I am a woodworker, or furniture maker.

There are many that do better work than me for money, and many that do worse. I do what I can, and I do the best I can, and I let the client or buyer determine if the quality merits the price, whether it's a $200 little 'rustic' arsty end table from reclaimed wood or a large $10k formal dresser with 32 drawers with hand cut dovetails.

Referring back to Krenov's definitions, I am probably an 'amateur' in his sense. I will price a job as best I can, but I will do whatever needs to be done to do it right and the best I can, the time clock be damned. I have turned out magnificent work (he says humbly) to a pre-agreed price that really paid me $2 an hour salary after all was said and done. I learned a lot about that particular type of work, so the next time, I'll price it higher, but I wasn't going to cut corners just to churn out product to a price I screwed up on estimating. I eat my mistakes and learn my lessons and move on. So the work is more important than the money, in that sense.

I just delivered a commissioned bed with drawers underneath, and it had to match the existing Chippendale furniture they had. I spent ten hours hand-making 60-feet of cherry molding for the drawer fronts because there was nothing out there I could use or buy--a fact I didn't appreciate when I priced the job. It wasn't worth having custom molding knives ground, so I sucked it up and even made my own scraper profile cutters to match the existing moldings.

All told, six large drawers took forty hours that I had based my price on taking two hours each, so 12 hours. That's 28 hours of labor and shop time I felt I needed to do to fulfill my obligation--didn't make as much money on that job as I'd hoped, but the clients were so impressed with the job they ordered another identical bed when I delivered yesterday for their daughter--and they want the same drawers. This time, I know how to price them, and I told them up front I'd taken a beating on the drawers and why. They said 'you'll make it up on the next bed'. And I will. :D

[David DeCristoforo]

Uhh...hummm. Let me see.... Ah...er...uh....hummm. Somehow this question sounds familiar.... I feel like I should know this one... Can't think of it right now. Hummm.....
Let me get back to you OK?

But wonder about this. How "professional" can you feel after you have just cut a whole project's worth of door stiles the wrong length? Or when you are trying to figure out how to get that 96" long cabinet into that 95" wide opening (forgot to deduct for the drywall again huh?)? Or when you just drove 150 miles to deliver and install a project and realized that the toolbox you need most is still sitting back on the workbench? Of course, things like that have never happened to me so I can not really answer the question....

[Tim Byars]

How "professional" can you feel after you have just cut a whole project's worth of door stiles the wrong length?

Very, I think...if you do what it takes to fix it and produce a quality result.

That's another wrinkle that makes it difficult to answer the question; there is some baggage that comes from the common use of the word as an adjective...if something is a "professional" job, it is consistent with some kind of superior standard. Or when someone says, "he's a real pro" or something like that.
It's just one of those words that has a lot of potential meanings, depending on who's using it and how. I agree with Cliff, to the point where I think the word has become almost meaningless.

[Craig Reynolds]

Very, I think...if you do what it takes to fix it and produce a quality result.

That's another wrinkle that makes it difficult to answer the question; there is some baggage that comes from the common use of the word as an adjective...if something is a "professional" job, it is consistent with some kind of superior standard. Or when someone says, "he's a real pro" or something like that.
It's just one of those words that has a lot of potential meanings, depending on who's using it and how. I agree with Cliff, to the point where I think the word has become almost meaningless.

I'll throw in my .02 on this one and add another wrinkle. I'm a supervisor for a local woodworking company that makes everything from passage doors to mouldings to fireplace surrounds. We have machines that would make woodworkers drool, including two Weinig Moulders and a KOMO CNC Mach 2 Router. In less time than someone can do set ups on a shaper or router table, we can machine all the parts for a passage door. Would our CNC operator be considered a professional? I can make all the same things in my "basement shop" but the quality will not be even close to CNC quality, and the time involved is much longer.

I think to simply say a professional is someone who derives their income from woodworking is misleading.