Cutting a 45 on a board edge

[Greg McCallister]

Ok,
I am using a older Craftsman belt drive contractor saw and cutting a 45 length wise on a board I tend to get some burn.
Now before you say its the blade - its new freud thin kirf and I also have a Bies fence I have within .02 square to to blade (tapers away)
there are other ways of cutting a 45 such as on the router with a 45 bit or on the joiner.
any suggestions on method that usually gets the best results?

[Randy Carnley]

Your setup seems good from your description. What about cutting proud and running through the jointer?

[Prashun Patel]

What type of wood are you using?

What's the teeth count on your freud blade?

Are you feeding at a constant rate?

Have you raised the blade so the bottom of the gullets barely clear the piece?

Are you SURE you're not twisting the piece as you feed it through? How about a featherboard to keep the pc tight to the fence?

You could always use a chamfer bit on a router, but if it's the wood species that's prone to burning, then you really gotta watch yr feed rate else you could burn it at higher speeds.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Have you tuned the blade to the miter slot at 90 and at 45 degrees? It does make a difference. When the blade is tipped to 45 degrees, if the trunion is not parallel to the moter slot then you will get burning.

When tuning the saw at 90 degrees you twist the trunion within in the play alotted (and some times must elongate the holes to get enough movement) to align the blade with the miter slot. To tune the blade at 45 degrees, add shims between the trunion and table top to adjust the alignment.

[Greg McCallister]

Shawn,
Soft Maple
50 tooth combo blade - maybe I should use a rip blade?
Constant feed rate
no featherboard used

Anthony,
I have not tuned the blade at a 45 degree - any good go-buys for doing this?

What do you guys use for this cut, plus I do need accuracy as I am making kitchen cabinets and this joint will be seen?

Not sure on using a joiner - how to you keep board square to fence?

[john bateman]

My left-tilt saw has a slight misalignment at 45 degrees bevel that I can't get rid of. When trying to rip cut a board, the force of the blade tends to pull the stock away from the fence, and gives some burning. I've found that if I rip to the final dimension, or just slightly oversized, with the blade at zero degrees, then just trimming off the remaining triangular shaped piece with the blade at 45, got rid of most of the problem.

You can also follow this guys directions http://www.cjohnhebert.com/Bed.htm
That method works well, but takes a little time to set up.

[Prashun Patel]

Not to digress, but are you sure you want to do a miter for a box joint? IMHO, it might be stronger and cleaner (over time) if you rabbet or dado your joint...

Only place I'd do miters is on molding or face frames. My 2c.

That Freud combo blade should be fine. I have a TK Avanti, and it cuts clean. I suspect yr blades out of alignment when it's tilted...?

[Greg McCallister]

Shawn,
The 45 will be on two oposing faces (end cabinet) as I plan to stile and rail the ends like the doors (nicer look).

John,
I might give that a try but I think I will try to true up the saw first.

[Tom Esh]

Shawn,
Soft Maple
50 tooth combo blade - maybe I should use a rip blade?


Maybe. Remember, at 45 deg bevel you're essentially cutting through about 40% more thickness. Make sure you've got adequate blade height and a clean blade. Heating from pitch build-up gets worse rapidly as thickness increases.

[Jason Whelehon]

I'd HIGHLY recommend using a good quality 45º router bit, 2 featherboards and a router in a router table.

The other suggestion of using a jointer is also a good one.

[Lee Schierer]

Greg, it sounds like you are cutting the piece to the right of the blade between the fence and the blade.

You state your fence is aligned at .02" to the blade. This isn't really that close, and may be part of the problem. With that saw and fence you should get the fence aligned to the miter slot to within .005", mine is within .003" on a craftsman saw.

I advise not to have the fence taper away as the fence can be used on both sides of the blade so a taper away becomes a taper toward on the other side of the blade. Your blade should be aligned to the miter slot and again you should be within .005", though it will take some time and care to get that close.

Trapping the wood between the fence and the blade on a 45 degree cut can lead to problems. Burning is one, kick back is the other. Any bowing or twist in the board will tend to bind the wood against the blade and cause burning. It can also cause kicjk back. Try putting your fence to the left of the blade and making the same cut so the cut off is below the blade and the keeper is above the angled blade.

On either side of the fence, use a feather board right at the point of cutting to keep the wood tight to the table while ripping.

Finally as others have said, combination blades are not the best blade for ripping. Your saw is 1-1/2" Hp and can't maintain rpm with a 40-50 tooth blade while ripping 1" stock. You need a 24 tooth thin kerf ripping blade. Freud makes some really good ones at reasonable prices, they will make your life much easier.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Lee is speaking of a a right tilt saw. If you have a left tilt saw, then you're doing fine. The most important thing Lee said is to make your cut such that your "cut off is below the blade and the keeper is above the angled blade" to avoid trapping the wood below that blade and between the fence.

[Frank Drew]

If it's just burning, without any other significant deflection of the cut which would show in the closed miter, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I think burning is more likely with slow feed than fast, and more likely with some woods that others, cherry being a prime example.

For both safety and accuracy reasons I don't think of a jointer as the tool for this job, as Greg already noted.

[Jason Whelehon]

As far as using a jointer to do the 45º cut you just bevel your jointer fence to 45º.

Like this photo shows.

http://tool-corral.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/37-275X.jpg

[Josiah Bartlett]

I know some people recommend against it, but I would try swapping the fence to the other side of the blade and ripping it that way. It shouldn't burn then if it is an alignment issue. Obviously follow all applicable safety procedures when you do this.

If your fence is aligned when the blade is vertical and out when it isn't, then I recommend making a shimmable sacrificial fence for use with bevel cuts. Just shim it to the angle you want and cut, then you don't have to worry about messing with the adjustment of the saw.

A final problem I've had is if your arbor washer isn't exactly the same diameter as your arbor shoulder, and it causes the blade to dish a little bit. This isn't usually very much of a problem until you tilt the blade and expose more of it to the wood and the side of the blade dishes out more than the kerf.

[bob hertle]

Greg,

What you are doing scares the he** out of me. If you are trapping the beveled piece between the fence and the blade, you run a high probability of kickback. I've been there with the Unisaw. Had a kickback severe enough to break the aluminum casting on one of my yellow wheels (board buddies), doing a bevel rip. A couple of reasons why it's so unsafe:

1-any bow, twist, or camber in the parent piece will cause jamming to some degree.

2-the cut itself can relieve residual stresses and induce camber which can cause jamming.

3-the offcut can also kickback and become airborne and potentially lethal depending on its mass.

A splitter or riving knife can mitigate a lot of the danger, but I think the router table/featherboard(s) was a good suggestion. I now do this kind of job on the bandsaw, or combo of the bandsaw and handplane or router table. Remember to shim the outfeed side of the fence on the router table if you are removing the entire edge, or you'll end up with a taper. DAMHIKT! (I wouldn't trap the workpiece between the bit and the fence unless I only had a whisker of material to remove)

BTW, Lee was 100% correct: .02 is not good enough, but maybe you meant .002. (Jeesh, I hate to sound like I'm preachin'!!)

Regards
Bob

[Brad Shipton]

I would not use a 50t for that rip. 24T rip is safer and will yield a better cut. I am not a big fan of the combo blades. You cannot make one blade ideal for both ripping and cross cuts. Burning in my case is either wood twist after the cut or too slow a feed speed.

Brad

[Peter Quinn]

You might be better off taking that miter in two passes, the first removing most of the material, maybe 1/16" over final width, the second to final width. Takes most of the stress off the blade on the second cut. I like a rip blade for long miters in hardwood.

Ripping long miters on a right tilt saw scares me. Not my forfeit having used mostly left tilt saws, but I'm sure there is a safe method out there some where. Keep searching till you find it. I have experienced kick back in that situation, its quick, its very violent and fraught with danger. And even if you keep your teeth and fingers, you usually lose your work piece!:D

The jointer is a GREAT way to make perfect 45 degree miters. Probably a lot safer than using the left side of the fence on a right tilt saw. The router with a big chamfer bit would come in dead last for me, though it does work with a few passes.

A guided skill saw is another good option to consider if your table saw won't behave. Its quite simple and fairly safe either with a shop made guide or something like the eureka set up. Rip the miter first with the skill saw then rip to final width on the TS with the blade at 90 degrees.

[Larry Fox]

I typically do them in multiple passes. First to rip at 90-degrees about 1/8" oversize. Second cut the 45 to the same 1/8" over (just cut to the top-left corner) and then run through one more time for the "money-cut". I use a rip-blade and make sure all safety gizmos that can be in-place are in-place and that my "work piece" is not in harms way. This is on a Left-Tilt Uni and, generally speaking, I am not fond at all of beveled cuts.

[Greg McCallister]

Thanks everyone for your replies.
As some have said - yea that cut scares the *&^& out me.
I will try the joiner and see, if not, I can use the router table (umm shim the output fence - did not know that).
The problem is the cut will be around 93" and yea I can see possible binding. (umm circular saw...)
ARGG
By the way the blade is almost dead on with the miter slot and the fence tapers out .002 from the miter (earlier was a typo). I will check to see if the 45 is right but umm do not feel comfortable about it. Also will try a rip blade. Its only wood right? I have had a kickback with the old stock fence and that really scared me. Lucky I was left of it and it just kicked off a back wall.
It is a left tilt saw and I was cutting to the right of it.
Are you saying I should cut to the left on this type of cut?
All that blade really scares me.

[Anthony Whitesell]

To avoid confusion with the whole left-right thing, let's just say that the piece you are pushing should be against the fence and on "top" of the blade, such that the cutoff is "below" the blade.

[glenn bradley]

Boy you got some responses on this one. contractor saws do have problems dealing with the motor weight sometimes and a good adjustment at 90* and 45* is not possible. I'll second the chamfer bit vote if things won't adjust correctly.

[Nissim Avrahami]

What Anthony is trying to say by "on top" is opposite to what you see in the pictures below...

But, I'm working like that. I think that a good "feather board" that keeps the work pressed to the fence before entering the blade and a riving knife/splitter that keeps the work out of the back teeth are essential for safe cut at any angle not only 45°.

I must note that, if the blade on the pictures would tilt to the left, the cut would be cleaner or in other words, the cut on the lower part (the visible part after assembly) of the large board that is between the fence and the blade, is not clean as the cut on the waste part.

niki

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb151/matsukawa/TS%20Bevels/08.jpg


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb151/matsukawa/TS%20Bevels/09.jpg

[Joe Spackle]

LIL
right or left tilt this works on either

Standoff fence amounts to clamping a straightedge board to the rip fence so only 1/8" of the edge you are trying to rip is in contact with the tapered edge ( at the top) . as you "rip" the bevel the small off cut piece has clearance to fall safely away as the cut progresses The aux fence should be about 2" wide 3/4" high and as long as your rip fence. Drill two 1 1/4" holes in the face so the clamps can securely tightened without being in the way.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/BCStudios/drawings/Standofffence001.jpg?t=1218074094
overall view
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/BCStudios/drawings/Standofffence002.jpg?t=1218074168
standoff fence should be about 1/8" lower than the stock you intend to bevel.
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/BCStudios/drawings/Standofffence003.jpg?t=1218074208
end of the first bevel cut
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/BCStudios/drawings/Standofffence005.jpg?t=1218074251
ready to start the second bevel
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/BCStudios/drawings/Standofffence007.jpg?t=1218074285
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/BCStudios/drawings/Standofffence008.jpg?t=1218074322

note how the off cut safely falls away from the standoff fence

Happy beveling

HTH

Joe[/quote]

[Peter Quinn]

Don't sell the skill saw short sir. i have cut perfect miters over 96" with a skill saw on job sites, no fear, no kickbacks and no burning. The jointer is really a breeze BTW. i wouldn't use it for hundreds of feet of miters as its not the quickest method, but for a few, no problem.

[Greg McCallister]

Thanks for the Pics!
Like they say a picture is worth a thousand words...
I think I got it now ... Thanks again.