Inside or Outside

[Dave Lessley]

I'm trying to decide to put my dust collection inside or outside.

You may be familiar with my current situation from my other thread on building my shop. For those of you who are not I lost my contractor. The building was to be finished August 1st.

If I place the dust collector outside. I will need to pour the slab and build an enclosure. The only reason I would consider putting it outside is noise reduction. And perhaps a little more space inside.

I have the 3HP Oneida Super Gorrilla. Oneida says about 82db which they say you can talk over. Can anyone verify that for me.

Putting it inside would be easier as I don't have to figure out how to get the air back inside or plumb the intake through the wall.

I don't mind giving up the space to put it inside and if I need to reconfigure the angles of my ducting having it inside allows me to move it around as needed until I'm happy. If I put it outside I will pretty much be committed to where the pad is.

If I put it outside I would probably cut one or two holes in the wall they say about 6 square feet with furnace filters as opposed to running the return air filter to the inside

Whats your experience? What do you think?

[Jim Becker]

I like my cyclone in the closet and the resulting noise reduction (compressor is in there, too), so if everything were equal, I'd put it "outside". But you have to weigh the time and money to do that vs. having it located in the shop somewhere. You can probably "talk" over the DC, but as soon as you open up a gate or two, the noise level increases from the rushing air.

[David Giles]

I've converted to an outside DC solution, but it's not appropriate for everyone. The advantages are:

All small dust fines are quickly moved out of the shop. No need for overhead air cleaners, high efficiency filters, etc. Just move the air and dust out. Outside venting solves all sorts of dust collection problems. The time spent installing the DC outside is saved by not having to read Bill Pentz' voluminous website.

Some folks in really cold climates must have a return air duct. Others have not found that venting outside actually cools the shop noticeably. I'd suggest that you save the return vent design for Phase 2 (if you ever need it).

Noise is greatly reduced inside the shop. Noise is greatly increased outside the shop. Good neighbors are important.

Cutting holes in the wall was relatively easy. Make a template for your pipe size and Sawzall away. Add a metal collar or caulk up the joint and you're done. Try to miss any electrical wires.

Good luck on whatever you choose.

[Steve Clardy]

Mine is outside. No bags or barrels to empty ;)

No close neighbors to worry about

[Joe Jensen]

I'm trying to decide to put my dust collection inside or outside.

You may be familiar with my current situation from my other thread on building my shop. For those of you who are not I lost my contractor. The building was to be finished August 1st.

If I place the dust collector outside. I will need to pour the slab and build an enclosure. The only reason I would consider putting it outside is noise reduction. And perhaps a little more space inside.

I have the 3HP Oneida Super Gorrilla. Oneida says about 82db which they say you can talk over. Can anyone verify that for me.

Putting it inside would be easier as I don't have to figure out how to get the air back inside or plumb the intake through the wall.

I don't mind giving up the space to put it inside and if I need to reconfigure the angles of my ducting having it inside allows me to move it around as needed until I'm happy. If I put it outside I will pretty much be committed to where the pad is.

If I put it outside I would probably cut one or two holes in the wall they say about 6 square feet with furnace filters as opposed to running the return air filter to the inside

Whats your experience? What do you think?

I have an Oneida 2HP Super Gorilla. I just ecogates to automatically start and stop the collector. I find the collector to be pretty loud and annoying. Remember that if you put it outside without an air return, you will be moving the air from your outside. If you heat or cool, or at least enjoy a temp differential between inside and outside, you'll lose that without an air return...joe

[Jim O'Dell]

If you have adequate room inside that a 3 X 4' closet won't ruin your shop space, keep it inside. It sounds like you will have climate control, so I would think inside would be better for the motor and the cyclone. WA is a moist environment. If you build a closet like Jim B. suggests, it will help just as much as having it outside. If you want to keep wall vibration noise to a minimum, mount the cyclone to a separate "structure" inside the closet. ie: don't mount it to the building wall or closet wall. At least use some type of vibration isolation material when mounting it if you have to mount to the wall. Many types of isolation mounts are available.
Go to Jim B's website and find his plans for the folded return air vent. Build this as big as reasonably possible. This will cut down noise of the air coming back into the shop from the filters. I planned originally to build mine from the closet up into the attic, and back down through a 18 to 24" square vent to save space in the closet or the shop. But I ended up exhausting outside for now, to save the price of the filters, and because my closest neighbor to the exhaust is across the creek. :rolleyes::D It does sound like a small turbine engine running outside the shop. Inside, no louder than the table saw. Jim.

[Mike Wilkins]

Reading these threads on inside vs. outside DC locations got me thinking (very dangerous for me). I have read numerous comments on venting the air back to the inside of the shop, due to the possibility of losing heated or cooled air. I only use my DC when a machine is running, with the only gate open to that machine. I have difficulty understanding how this one opening can make that much of a difference in the interior temp. of a shop. Maybe some folks keep the DC running all the time.
My DC is inside an outside closet with the piping running through the wall, and there are gates at multiple locations.
Am I missing something here????

[Matt Robinette]

I like mine outside in a 4' by 8' lean to shed that contains the upright IR 60 gallon compressor and the Clearvue 1800 max cyclone. I also plan on putting the ridgid mini cyclone vacuum lid converson in the shed when I am done with my latest remodel project then 2"pvc piped to it. I have pics of the shed build with db readings at the clearvue web site. I am not a paid endorser for Clearvue I just like working with Ed.
Hope this helps
Matt

[Ward Probst]

Mike,

I think it depends on how many CFMs your DC is capable of moving. Moving 500 cubic feet of air per minute will empty most small shops pretty quickly and you have to replace that air from somewhere if you exhaust it outside. If your shop is climate controlled, you are exchanging "bought air" for whatever rushes in to replace it. That's if I understand how this stuff works.
WP

[Steve Clardy]

Reading these threads on inside vs. outside DC locations got me thinking (very dangerous for me). I have read numerous comments on venting the air back to the inside of the shop, due to the possibility of losing heated or cooled air. I only use my DC when a machine is running, with the only gate open to that machine. I have difficulty understanding how this one opening can make that much of a difference in the interior temp. of a shop. Maybe some folks keep the DC running all the time.
My DC is inside an outside closet with the piping running through the wall, and there are gates at multiple locations.
Am I missing something here????

I've never noticed a heat loss in the winter.

[Ward Probst]

Dave,

85db is fairly noisy to talk above, especially since the frequency is rather low on a cyclone. I have a 2HP Oneida Commercial and I usually turn it off to talk to anyone. That said, I don't run it unless I'm using a power tool, most of which are louder than the DC. I have thought a lot about putting the DC and compressor outside and I probably will move the compressor out. I'm torn about moving the DC because it cleans the air in the shop so well it's noticeable even with the doors and windows open. I do have the big filter on it which seems to make a difference and my ducting is still a work in progress so...I hope this semi informed opinion helps.
WP

[Wayne Cannon]

The 3 HP Dust Gorilla's noise is tolerable. Because of it's relatively low pitch and more distributed frequency spectrum, it's less annoying than a table saw, router, or shop vac. Yes, you can talk over it, but it's almost impossible to hear someone over the phone when it's running, though. Having said all that, it's still loud enough to consider using hearing protection even if it doesn't have a shrill single-pitch.

[Dave Lessley]

Thank you all for your replys.

Sounds like enclosed is the way to go be it inside or outside. As I need to build an enclosure anyway I dont think it will be that much more except for the concrete which I have enough left over from the bathroom pour. The concrete guy did not estimate very well. I can include my compressor as well.

Now deciding where to put it I need to run the electrical.

Thanks again,

[Kerry Wright]

Go to Jim B's website and find his plans for the folded return air vent. .

Jim,

I tried "Jim Becker's" website with no luck, or are you referring to another Jim B?

Also, does anyone else have any good info concerning return air ducting?

Kerry

[Joe Chritz]

I find that the air moving through the metal pipes is nearly as loud as the unit itself.

I like outside, mine is actually in an enclosed room off the main shop. The cons for outdoors are that you have to go outside in the weather to change barrels and you need make up air. That also means make up heat in the winter. With a cyclone you could vent the return air back into the shop and remove the make up air problem. I have done this and it works well.

Joe

[Jim Becker]

Kerry, the information is not on my web site...it's here at SMC. Here's a graphic of how my air return was constructed between the ceiling joists:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=57221&d=1170798863

[Jim O'Dell]

My bad. Jim, wasn't it on your website at one time, maybe 3 years ago? I could have sworn that's where I saw it originally. Anyway, it's a great design that should work wonders for noise abatement. Thanks for posting here, Jim. Jim. (O);)

[Jim Becker]

No, it was never on my site, Jim, and it's unfortunately been a couple of years since I updated anything there. (MY bad on that...no time)

[Nathan Conner]

Hey, Dave. I live just a couple of miles north of you, and the guy I bought my cyclone from was in Camas.

He had it outside hanging on the side of his shop for a couple of years, and the motor and welds had some rust that took some cleanup, and may have had some negative effect on the bearings in this climate. Not sure yet. It seems to run fine so far, but it isn't ideal.

When I heat, it's spendy, and I certainly don't want to be tossing that money away. I don't know what the total CFM is on this cyclone, but it really moves the air, and I can't stand the thought of all that warm, dry air moving outside quickly, and the cold air (be it from the cold steel on the cyclone or just outside air being pulled in) being pumped/pulled back into the shop -- even with a return setup. Though it's not bad this time of year, all the moist coldness coming up in a couple of months will make you miserable, make your wood sad, and your tools even sadder.

Let me know if you need help or would like to see pictures of what I ended up doing with mine. Same scenario as a couple of other guys here. It's inside, hanging high in the corner next to the compressor, and it takes up little room. The framing has just started for the wall around the pair of those guys. And even without the wall, the noise is perfectly acceptable, even with this big 5HP motor and 15" vanes. It was LOUD on the floor when I tested it, but after mounting and sealing everything, it hums right along. The planer/Table saw/chop saw - all are way louder than the DC.

Good luck!

[jason lambert]

Outside. I wouldn't want to listen to it all day. If you pipe the return back in you don't really need a insulated structure or anything elabrate. I think it would be easer to cut another 7" hole than add filters etc.

[Dave Lessley]

Jason,

How much noise comes back in to the shop with the filter? I know they have a noise filter or muffler that came with my system. That would cause me to think that there is significant noise at that point. That was my thought of placing it outside and then having a baffle that vented to the shop to help knock down the noise even further.

I definetly need return air to the shop as it does get cold during the winter and I will be running heat.

What do you think?

[Jim Becker]

Dave, I personally opted for the filter with the cyclone and a baffled return to keep the noise level very low. Just the filter in the shop will be a lower noise level than having the whole system there, but still noticeably louder than a baffled return.

[Joe Jensen]

I like mine outside in a 4' by 8' lean to shed that contains the upright IR 60 gallon compressor and the Clearvue 1800 max cyclone. I also plan on putting the ridgid mini cyclone vacuum lid converson in the shed when I am done with my latest remodel project then 2"pvc piped to it. I have pics of the shed build with db readings at the clearvue web site. I am not a paid endorser for Clearvue I just like working with Ed.
Hope this helps
Matt

My 3 car garage is 20 by 30 by 9. That is 5400 cu ft. My collector is pulling at least 500 cfm on the smaller ports, and as much as 900 cfm on the planer. That means my shop air could be completely exchanged in 5-9 min. Obviously, the exchange would not be that even. I don't heat, but as of this summer I cool. Sometimes I need to open the 2 car door to plane or joint long boards. With the door open 1/2 way, only for 3-5min, the temp will rise from 80-84 degrees. It cools relatively quickly because the thermal mass of the shop is at 80, but it still works the AC harder. I'd think a DC dumping outside would replace more air than the door open 1/2 way would. Anyone know the science here?

[Dave Lessley]

Jim and All,

The reason I asked about if I would be bringing the noise inside is I'm thinking of putting the collector outside and bring the filter inside. I already have the components from Onieda to do that. I need return air to the inside as my space will be conditioned. If I bring the filter inside that puts 100% of the air inside the building as opposed to pressurizing the outside shed and perhaps losing some of the conditioned air to the prevailing temperature of the shed and leakage of the shed. This would also avoid cutting large holes in the walls to accomodate the square footage required for passive air return.

So bring the filter inside build the baffle for noise on the inside around the filter and hinge it to the wall so I could swing it open to service the filter or something to that effect. Ideas?

Something else I'm considering. One of the duct manufacturer's makes a diverter where I could divert the return air to the inside (filtered) or to the outside (no filter). I've not checked it out in detail yet. It is just an idea I came up with when I saw the diverter.

Thanks again for all the considerations. It's sure nice to be able to bounce this stuff around to other folks and get considerate, experienced feedback. It is appreciated.

[Jim Becker]

Dave, the size of the return "hole" for your cyclone is pretty much the same size as you would need to put the filter in the shop. You don't need a large opening...only enough to pass the same amount of air that's going into the space. You might lose a little heat/cooling through leaks, but proper insulation and caulking limits that to a minimum. I'm only mentioning this to insure that there is not a misunderstanding about the size of a return. My return is about 6" tall by about 14" wide. I linked to a diagram up above (post 16) so you can see how it was folded over to prevent direct noise transmission. I just happened to use the space in the ceiling joists (12" engineered I-joists) to provide the path for the baffling.

[Dave Lessley]

I was talking to Oneida about ducting size and lengths before reducing the size of the pipe and asked them about an outside installation and the fellow immediately popped up with I needed about 6 square feet of opening to allow the air to return to the shop with the filter in the enclosure. Their documentation on the web recommends 1 square foot for every 500cfm.

Just thinking to myself here and I guess to the rest of you,

I'm concerned as to how well or to what measures I would need to build my enclosure to limit leakage. I will be including my air compressor in the space as well. I will need access to service the equipment which will mean doors or removable panels. All needing to have weather strip or something to prevent leakage. If I have the filter outside I would need to insulate the enclosure to keep from unconditioning my conditioned air as it would be mixing with the ambient air in the enclosure. This would mean my door or panel would be at least two by two plus sheeting if I used say rigid foam for insulation. I will need some way to completely pull out the compressor or the dust collector for large repairs or replacement.

That's how I came to thinking about bringing the filter inside and further silencing it once inside. Then the enclosure would just need to be sturdy reasonably air tight with minimal insulation.

Previously my compressor had an outhouse size enclosure out of corrigated steel that just butted up to the side of the shop. Sometimes when it got cold it would not want to spin up and would trip the breaker on the motor. It has been out there for 13 years and it still works.