Hand sculpting to 3D scanner to CNC ?

[Harry Radaza]

Is it possible to hand sculpt an image (probably faster than creating from scratch in 3D?) then have it scanned by a 3D scanner (any advice or suggestions on what models for this?) and save and print to the CNC ?

I am thinking of a shopbot or a cnc shark (cheaper) and maybe a VCarve which comes with the shark.

any thoughts on this ?

[Kevin L. Waldron]

I have a laser scanner and can scan just about anything into the computer (my cnc is 60x144 x 19 tall, and the scanner will work just about anywhere on the table. With the lense I have, I have about 7" of focus range and your object would need to fall into that range or you will have to layer scan.) The cost for such was around $12,000. Scanning is not a problem. The problem comes when you have to make files that the cnc can use and tool path or generate g-code.

4) ways I've done this.
1)Autocad add-on called Point cloud. This program allows you to simulate draping a sheet over the data file and then remove the points or raw data and making a dwg or dxf file.
2)Use Rhinocerous cad and create curve data from the information and then use from that point either in Rhinocam or Artcam, Enroute.
3)Cut 3d and use data directly.
4)Artcam and Enroute can also pull in stl data but this often is difficult to clean up. So even though I have these programs I don't like using them for this.

The easiest of the 4 is Cut 3d it is also probably the least accurate and if it is sculpting it may serve well. If you need a detail say of a "house phone" you will almost certainly have to use the other 3 ways to get accuarte files.

From a commercial standpoint it takes to much computer cleanup for my taste to try and sell this ability. I never did like editing nodes. The scanner does work and works well I just have not found an easy way to produce files quickly for routing.

Hope this helps.

Kevin

[Rob Wright]

This can be done without a problem.

Using Brady Watson's laser scanning service (www.ibild.com) and Vectric's Cut3D software (or the similar and provided 3d software with the Shopbot) you would be able to do this.

Depending on the scan and the amount of relief, a 4 or even 5 axis machine would be required, and in that case Cut 3d would be out. You would have to step up to the big dog CAM programs - many $k's and too rich for me!:)

[Keith Outten]

Harry,

ShopBot has a digitizing probe that will duplicate your master part creating the necessary files you need. Follow this link for more information:

http://www.shopbottools.com/accessories.htm

.

[Harry Radaza]

keith, thank you so much for that little piece of advice. Definitely sounds like something I would be using a lot. With what I have read on 3d software, it seems that it would take a long time to create the 3d model. I am leaning towards hand sculpting as this might be faster and more efficient.

As for software, what would you recommend for a beginner like me? What should I use to be able to create 3d models. We deal mostly with small 2 inch diameter pendants.

And will the shark do the 3d probe too ( i doubt )?

[Keith Outten]

Harry,

I can't help you much with the 3D software as I don't have any experience in that area yet. I know that Vectric has 3D software that is very resonably priced for creating tool paths of 3D files that are created in other programs like Rino 3D and 3D Studio.

If you purchase a Probe from ShopBot it comes with the necessary software for the scanning part of the job that creates both the file and the toolpath. This would work when you have your own masters. If you wanted to make changes to your files you would definately need a 3D design package.

.

[Wil Lambert]

keith, thank you so much for that little piece of advice. Definitely sounds like something I would be using a lot. With what I have read on 3d software, it seems that it would take a long time to create the 3d model. I am leaning towards hand sculpting as this might be faster and more efficient.

As for software, what would you recommend for a beginner like me? What should I use to be able to create 3d models. We deal mostly with small 2 inch diameter pendants.

And will the shark do the 3d probe too ( i doubt )?

Sculpting in the computer takes no long than by hand. It just depends on how much time you take with the software to get good at it. I sculpt by hand and in ArtCAM. I would prefer to sculpt in ArtCAM anyday. The other problem with scans is they are not as good of a model as you can get when it is created in the PC.

Wil

[Neil Schell]

Harry,

Another option is the FastSCAN, a hand-held 3D laser scanner, not a cnc mounted type. You can scan an object (like your sculpture) in less than a minute and export the scan file to any CAM package to generate the tool path.

This tool has greatly simplified the digitizing part. As far as what to do with the digitizer data (scan file), if you're simply replicating, its easy, just export the file (as .STL or .DXF or other) into a CAM package which will convert it to g-code (tool path). If you want to make design or artistic changes to the scan data, that gets more complex, and a 3D modeling program such as Rhino or Geomagic will work much better than CAD programs (such as Solidworks or AutoCAD). CAD programs like geometric data, not organic shapes, like wood carvings or sculptures.

Finally, concerning the touch probes, they work very well and can be inexpensive, but it would be adviseable to see a demo to understand the time it takes. Digitizing sculptures and wood carvings with these can take a very long time if you're using the standalone type. If you're using a cnc mounted type, of course it takes the cnc out of production while your digitizing.

[james mcgrew]

check this if you want to learn!!
http://www.david-laserscanner.com/



this guy used brady's service

http://vectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3418

[Guy Mathews]

Originally posted at Camheads.org. by me GJMATHEWS at Camheads. You can click the link below to see my other work. You may need to register to view photo albums.

http://www.camheads.org/member.php?u=190

One of my many other talents is Laser Scanning parts to produce working 3D models for milling on CNC machines. I know there are other companies out there that do this, but for some strange reason, I never see the initial scans of these companies.

A member of Camheads sent me these chess pieces. This is a quick scan of the bishop, using my hand held scanner. Tomorrow I will set up studio lights and produce a 3d Scan of the entire piece. Total scan time was 4 minutes start to finish. From the basic scan, I can make a watertight .STL ready for milling as you can see in the second photo. Total time to do all this was less then 20 minutes. This basic scan file has holes in in it right now, however they are so small, you could mill with a 1/16 inch ball nose and not pierce the surface. All laser scanners have faults. I know someone will email in the next day or two telling me that their scanner is perfect and you can scan and mill with no file manipulation whatsoever other then Axis placement and tool paths. In some cases you can, but the detail is lacking, such as the owls that I scanned and milled. However, the proof is always in the pudding.

This piece stands 3 and 3/8 inches high. As you can see the detail is pretty pronounced for a hand held scan.

Would love to see the work of others, start to finish. I think Brady Watson could give me a run for my money. I have seen his finshed scans on his website but not the inital work. So far, I am only aware of myself and one other person that is scanning and milling in under 1 hour. I am open to all challenges. http://www.camheads.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

Anyway, my point is, we are only limited by our imaginations and our wallets. We are living in an incredible time right now. The technology to change just about anything is at our fingertips. Davids scanner looks pretty cool from what I saw and I do not think the file manipulation would be too hard for anyone with basic computer and CAD skill, however it does take time. Lots of time depending on level of detail. Artcam or Aspire can definately handle the cleanup detail.

Anyhow, looking forward to seeing more people posting there work in this area. More to come as I scan the chess set.

http://www.camheads.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=362&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234391416 (http://www.camheads.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=362&d=1234391416) http://www.camheads.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=363&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234391599 (http://www.camheads.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=363&d=1234391599)

[james mcgrew]

now you know i like it!!

jim

[Brad Knight]

Guy we can't see the pics because you have to log into the camhead site to see images. Sorry...

Sounds great though

[james mcgrew]

guy i looked at the chair with interest, were you stopping and changing bits with the shopbot or were you using the drill, the scan looks great!!

jim

[Angus Hines]

Well just sign up The pics of Guys work are well worth it ! And it's free too!

[james mcgrew]

brad, while the camheads site is a forum operated and moderated for the support and growth of the camaster machine owners, we welcome all who wish to join. yes our focus is our machines and decorum does lend it self to the machine such as shopbots forum, but the work and process of cnc and it's growth are for all

jim mcgrew

[Guy Mathews]

guy i looked at the chair with interest, were you stopping and changing bits with the shopbot or were you using the drill, the scan looks great!!

jim

Jim, I assume you are referring to the back splat for the flower chair. I only have one head on my Shopbot, a 5 HP Colombo. Alas, I had to change bits 3 times and re-zero the Z each time.

I am going to carve the back splat again using the ATC on our new CAMaster. (Insert loud manly grunting noises here, followed by excessive gloating and drooling)

My guess is that the CAMaster is going to cut about 5 hours off of my machine time.

With your machine you could mill the same piece as well. Most jobs only take 3 bits on average when carving anyway so your machine is a great choice for anyone that wants the ability to run multiple bits without have to shut the machine down to change bits and re-Z. The CAMaster also has this great little feature that when the power goes out, you can just g28 the machine and start over from the last line of code give or take a few lines without having to reset everything. I love that feature more than my ATC.

Kudos again to Bill Glenn!

[james mcgrew]

my 480v is on the line to the hospital directly from the sceg power plant. it is rare we have a power outage!! i saw how you took a fourth axis file and machine it in 3 axis. my presumption is it created the concave/convex need to be a seat back. did it carve on the oppisite as well?

jim

[Guy Mathews]

my 480v is on the line to the hospital directly from the sceg power plant. it is rare we have a power outage!! i saw how you took a fourth axis file and machine it in 3 axis. my presumption is it created the concave/convex need to be a seat back. did it carve on the oppisite as well?

jim

Both sides of the splat were carved, and yes it was curved (concave/convex depending on the perspective). I created the initial 3D file as a flat object, created a UVN mesh file and flowed it along the inside surface of the chair back to create the customer's desired arc. From there, Visual Mill front and back and voila! Chair backs!

The customer was kind enough to send me photos of the finished chair. I did not do the finish. We made one chair to match 5 others.

It is hard to see in these photos, but the curvature matched the rails.

Join CAMheads, we need web traffic!!!!!! Plus CAMaster makes the best machines! IMHO!!!!:D

[james mcgrew]

guy, david and i are sitting here and david is amazed, we are glad you are as good as you are!!!

jim

[Guy Mathews]

Well just sign up The pics of Guys work are well worth it ! And it's free too!


Angus, thanks for the compliment on my work.

[Guy Mathews]

guy i looked at the chair with interest, were you stopping and changing bits with the shopbot or were you using the drill, the scan looks great!!

jim

Jim,

One other thing about the flower chair. I did not scan the back splat with a laser.
I drew the back splat and sculpted it in using CAD software and in virtual carving software. I did not have the chair as a reference. Just photos and measurements from the desiger.

Guy

[Guy Mathews]

The more I thought about, the more I felt my latest video link actually belongs here as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtd-xFukZQ4

Enjoy. I f you like it or want to criitque, please post comments or rate the Video at Youtube.

Thanks.

[james mcgrew]

this question has been answered for me! there will be a lot more on this later but this scan and file was done by guy at new wave woodworking for a project i am working on. the file work is superb as i have the original piece which was only a few inches tall and the file is 70 inches tall

jim

[james mcgrew]

here is where this is going, we are making a life size chess set, this is a test model using guy matthews scanner and file work, machined in aspire

jim

[Guy Mathews]

Jim,

Just wanted to tease you a bit with your next piece. I am taking extra time with the Knight because I know that you are a horse owner. The knight, the king and the queen should be available for download by Monday.

Guy

[Guy Mathews]

This is job that came my way this morning from a customer in Jersey. The photo inset shows the object as the customer sent it to me. The object was scanned and an RBF surface was applied. At this point, the scan can be trimmed and incorporated into another turning or some other application.

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt178/gjmathews/LeafScanning.jpg

For this customer's purpose, I will use virtual carving tools in the computer to change the details of the 3D design to make it similar, but different. The changes will be enough so as not to infringe on another artist work by making knockoffs, (yes, I can counterfeit furniture if I wanted to!) ...but subtle enough so that the customer gets something similar to the the object they sent us.

For any of you that might need a cabriole leg scanned or something to that nature, our basic scanning services are relatively inexpensive.

[James Jaragosky]

This is job that came my way this morning from a customer in Jersey. The photo inset shows the object as the customer sent it to me. The object was scanned and an RBF surface was applied. At this point, the scan can be trimmed and incorporated into another turning or some other application.

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt178/gjmathews/LeafScanning.jpg

For this customer's purpose, I will use virtual carving tools in the computer to change the details of the 3D design to make it similar, but different. The changes will be enough so as not to infringe on another artist work by making knockoffs, (yes, I can counterfeit furniture if I wanted to!) ...but subtle enough so that the customer gets something similar to the the object they sent us.

For any of you that might need a cabriole leg scanned or something to that nature, our basic scanning services are relatively inexpensive.

You do realize that if you start with someone else's copywright, no mater how much you change it you still have infringed on the copywright.

[Guy Mathews]

Yes, I am well aware of copyright, and design patents. Our company works with over 50 designers that use other design elements from one another all the time. I have produced on CNC some of the most beautiful carved chairs that you have ever seen for a production run of ten, only to have the file sit dormant on a CD for 3 years because the design belongs to one of my customers. Meanwhile, some ahole in China can get a hold of one the chairs and mass produce them for pennies on the dollar because our lovely government is more interested in diplomatic relations with emerging third world nations then it is the livelyhood of the American Woodworker and American worker in general. As long as Wall Street is taken care of, everything will be fine in their eyes. :mad:

In additon, I have drawn and programmed over 50 variations of a 4 inch high tapered window leg for sofas, chairs and ottomans because Designer A says that it has to be 2.0625 inches at the top and 1.375 inches at the bottom or the design will not flow properly. Meanwhile, Designer B has been using the same exact leg with one slight difference, 2.125 at the top and 1.25 at the bottom. Laugh if you want to, but I see this kinda cr*p everyday!

BTW, aren't you the guy that was making a Harley coaster or something like that for your man cave? If I remember correctly, it was the Number 1 with Harley Davidson at the bottom. It looked an awful a lot like the dark horse logo. Talk about copyright infringement! Yikes! The Harley Law Team will descend from the hills on magic carpets if they even think that the Harley name is being used by someone for anything else but their precious motorcycle company!

And lets not forget "The Last Supper" that everyone with Aspire and a CNC machine seems to be carving lately. Is the Davinci Foundation collecting any residuals on that one?

One last thing, your statement suggest that if you copyright a square, and I scan it, then modify the scanned file to be a circle that I have infringed on your copyright...

Are you a lawyer or a woodworker? ;)

For more info on copyrights and patents you can go to
www.uspto.gov (http://www.uspto.gov)

This site is among one of my favorites.

[James Jaragosky]

Yes, I am well aware of copyright, and design patents. Our company works with over 50 designers that use other design elements from one another all the time. I have produced on CNC some of the most beautiful carved chairs that you have ever seen for a production run of ten, only to have the file sit dormant on a CD for 3 years because the design belongs to one of my customers. Meanwhile, some ahole in China can get a hold of one the chairs and mass produce them for pennies on the dollar because our lovely government is more interested in diplomatic relations with emerging third world nations then it is the livelyhood of the American Woodworker and American worker in general. As long as Wall Street is taken care of, everything will be fine in their eyes. :mad:

In additon, I have drawn and programmed over 50 variations of a 4 inch high tapered window leg for sofas, chairs and ottomans because Designer A says that it has to be 2.0625 inches at the top and 1.375 inches at the bottom or the design will not flow properly. Meanwhile, Designer B has been using the same exact leg with one slight difference, 2.125 at the top and 1.25 at the bottom. Laugh if you want to, but I see this kinda cr*p everyday!

BTW, aren't you the guy that was making a Harley coaster or something like that for your man cave? If I remember correctly, it was the Number 1 with Harley Davidson at the bottom. It looked an awful a lot like the dark horse logo. Talk about copyright infringement! Yikes! The Harley Law Team will descend from the hills on magic carpets if they even think that the Harley name is being used by someone for anything else but their precious motorcycle company!

And lets not forget "The Last Supper" that everyone with Aspire and a CNC machine seems to be carving lately. Is the Davinci Foundation collecting any residuals on that one?

One last thing, your statement suggest that if you copyright a square, and I scan it, then modify the scanned file to be a circle that I have infringed on your copyright...

Are you a lawyer or a woodworker? ;)

For more info on copyrights and patents you can go to
www.uspto.gov (http://www.uspto.gov)

This site is among one of my favorites.


You are correct; I made a HD costar. Although I only made one, and did not sell it, I still am in violation of the copyright. (I have recycled this particular project weeks ago).
As far as the last supper please see the following link.
This image is in the public domain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/public_domain) because its copyright has expired.
This applies to the United States, Canada, the European Union and those countries with a copyright term of life of the author plus 70 years.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Leonardo_da_Vinci_(1452-1519)_-_The_Last_Supper_(1495-1498).jpg (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Leonardo_da_Vinci_(1452-1519)_-_The_Last_Supper_(1495-1498).jpg)

AS far as the square or circle is concerned please see the public domain link.
Anyway no matter what I have done in the past or may do in future it will not change the validity of my previous post.And as you so aptly point out I am not a lawyer so this is just my opinion.


Copy and alter away; as you have pointed out the Chinese are doing it on a massive scale, so why shouldn’t we be able to do it as well.

I do try not to use any copyrighted material in any of my work; but I too am not perfect.

My statement was meant as information only; and was not meant as an accusation or condemnation.
Please except my apology if I have offended you in any way

[Guy Mathews]

James, my apologies as well. You need not worry about offending me. You can not offend the offensive, in most cases you will just provoke a response! :D

Anywho, I know of public domain as well. I search constantly PD works and music. The Da vinci BS was just posted as a far right example of how screwed up a lawyer could make things if given an opportunity. Since we are woodworkers, we need to worry about the lawyers.

Seriously, we can get sued if someone came into our shop, jumped up on one of our CNC machines and proceeded to peck-drill their eyes out because we don't have sign up that specifically states "Warning, a CNC machine can peck-drill your eyes out if you are an idiot and use it for that purpose." :eek: Man, I love America!

Anyway, same here on the apology spectrum James. Did not mean to offend, just making a point.

Watch out for the copyright police, lord knows there is someone out there who just can't wait for one of us to make a mistake so they can launch their lawsuit to stardom!

Guy

[Guy Mathews]

Hey all,

Have been working on our website for the past few days. Laser Scanning page went live today. Stop by and check it out if you can pull yourself away from your CNC machines long enough! http://www.camheads.org/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


Comments and corrections are welcome.

Thanks.

Guy

[George Brown]

Hey all,

Have been working on our website for the past few days. Laser Scanning page went live today. Stop by and check it out if you can pull yourself away from your CNC machines long enough! http://www.camheads.org/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Comments and corrections are welcome.

Thanks.

Guy

WOW!

Just have to ask, how much is a scanner like that?

[Guy Mathews]

George,

A lot!

If you or anyone is interested, you can follow the links on my home page and talk to the company directly.

Be sure to tell them that Guy sent you as i do get referral fees if a prospect buys a laser!!!! I need the money for my hotel room at IWF 2010!!!!!

I used the Fastscan in conjunction with a few other programs to make the 3D models for the chess set that Jim McGrew is cutting.

[james mcgrew]

oh yea!!

jim

[Guy Mathews]

Jim,

You're right. The pawn looks frigging (cleanest expletive I could think of!) awesome!

Guy

[George Brown]

Jim,

You're right. The pawn looks frigging (cleanest expletive I could think of!) awesome!

Guy


Hats off to you. You are GOOD!

Awesome what a combination of hardware/software/know how can produce. Superb work gentlemen.

[james mcgrew]

guy and i both have camasters!! before that we were ships passing in the night!!

jim

[james mcgrew]

this is russ revells mini cobra in fla he is also about to start using his lathe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCAfX3BDPW8

[james mcgrew]

this is some of the new stuff we are working to utilize better, it is no where near as technical or capable as the methods used by guy but it is begginning to produce some results for smaller lathes (cnc)

jim

http://www.vectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6449

[Khalid Khattak]

James, i really like your great work.. I wish they keep the names of the chess set with your Name...