Drill press runout, possible new chuck

[Peter Quadarella]

I have the Steel City drill press, and all this talk about it has got me working on it again. It's such a cool machine, I have this urge to pimp my drill press. :D One item I have considered is a keyless drill chuck.

However, if I spend the money on a new chuck, I want to make sure it's going to do away with any runout issues. I recently got a great deal on a dial indicator at a garage sale, so I was able to measure my runout. After removing the chuck and doing a final thorough cleaning of the tapered hole with some Q-tips, I did some measuring.

On the neck of the hole, I get ~.001" which seems great to me. On the chuck I get about .006" which is noticeable, and on a bit I can get as high as .012". This is relatively noticeable, but I'm not sure if it's at a level I should worry about. Any thoughts on this?

Finally, is there any way I can be sure if the runout is due to my chuck? I'm not sure if the first measurement is final - could there be an issue with the tapered hole?

Thanks for your advice.

[John Thompson]

I wouldn't personally put a keyless chuck on my DP. As a matter of fact I replace keyless chucks on power hand drills with a keyed chuck. The keyless never seem to get it tight enough which results in slippage sooner or latter... usually sooner for me. :)

I won't comment on the new gauge but I will ask the question for what problems were occuring before you got the guage and discovered you have the run-outs you mentioned? And are you sure you set up to properly get an accurate reading?

Sarge..

[Peter Quadarella]

Well, I was actually considering springing for an Albrecht chuck someday, figuring if they can't get a keyless right, no one can.

I have noticed the runout for a while now; it has been bothering me which is why I've been on the lookout for a dial indicator.

The one I got seems in pretty good shape, and is by Scherr Tumico, which sounds vaguely familiar to me. To get a readout, I basically used clamps to position it barely in contact with the spindle in question perpendicularly, and as I moved the chuck around I could see the contact point going in and out. The gradations are in .0005 increments and for what I considered a .06" runout, it would move from say 10 to 16.

[Clifford Mescher]

I usually chuck a ground drill blank and put indicator on blank as close to chuck as possible and tap the chuck with a plastic hammer. Do not keep indicator on while banging. Use a marker to direct the blow. Put indicator back on and spin chuck. Might have to do multiple times.Clifford

[Peter Quadarella]

That sounds good Clifford, I will give that a try.

[glenn bradley]

I was running a 1-1/4" forstner into ash Monday and have no slipping with the Woodcraft keyless chuck (that looks suspiciously like a Rohm). This is an inexpensive keyless unit. I would expect even better performance from some of the better units. As far as runout goes, I had unacceptable runout on my machine. Cleaning and reseating the shaft and chuck as you describe helped. After a bit I realized it wasn't runout per se. The bearings were sloppy. Warranty job; now all better.

[Jim Becker]

Peter, try removing and re-seating it again just to be sure if it's the chuck/taper or not.

[Peter Quadarella]

OK, this is actually my second time, but I didn't have a way of measuring before. I will try again and see if I get any different readings. Thanks.

[Max Acbuilder]

I have a PM2800 that has driven me crazy with runout at .009-.012. You really notice it if you drill a pen blank. I am looking for hints on a high quality chuck and morse taper.

[Peter Quadarella]

I'll let you know as soon as I get back in the shop and do some more testing. My only concern would be if the problem is not in the chuck and in the drill itself somehow.

I've done some research, and can tell you that Albrecht is considered the cream of the crop, and is more of a machinists chuck than a woodworkers (you pay for the quality though).

[Barry Vabeach]

I bought a keyless chuck about a week ago from Iturra for my metal lathe and it is pretty sweet for the cost - in the neighbor hood of $50 - 60 , Unfortunately they don't have a website, but you can find their number pretty easily.

[John Thompson]

Sorry as I got busy, Peter.. Ditto Jim B. on removing and replacing the chuck at this point. The best chuck made is basically useless if it has been jarred to one side or was initially not seated straight.

Sarge..

[Peter Quadarella]

OK, I took extra care this time in seating it, and holding it as straight as possible while seating, and it does seem a little bit better. This time, I measured against a bit (really the fake alignment bit that came with the DP), as close to the chuck as possible. I got only .0045. Strangely, it looks worse than it is, because something is off on the exterior of the chuck - when I measure against this I still get ~ .01. You can see that it is somewhat lopsided.

But I guess it's the bit that matters. So now this is kind of borderline. I can try the tapping trick that Clifford mentioned. Perhaps I don't need a new chuck. At the very least, I'm convinced now that it is the chuck that is slightly off.

I really appreciate all your help, I was kind of in the dark with all this. What do you guys think about the runout I have now? Tolerable?

[Phil Thien]

I was running a 1-1/4" forstner into ash Monday and have no slipping with the Woodcraft keyless chuck (that looks suspiciously like a Rohm).

My Forstner bits have square shanks (so they can't slip). Your 1-1/4 has a round shaft, right?

Just asking.

[Phil Thien]

When I'm being careful: I insert bits into my chuck, I slowly spin/wiggle them as I tighten the chuck hand-tight. This insures that the bit is perfectly centered in the chuck. I then tighten the chuck using the key in each of the holes on the chuck, to insure even pressure. I haven't DI measured a drill rod's runout this way, but when I drill a hole w/o clamping the piece of wood I get very little vibration. There is certainly no obvious (visual) runout.

When I'm not so careful (as in, it doesn't matter), I just toss the bit in the chuck and tighten it quickly. I often can visually perceive the runout. Drilling a hole and cause an unclamped workpiece to wobble quite a bit.

Is there any room to improve your technique for chucking-up the bit?

[glenn bradley]

My Forstner bits have square shanks (so they can't slip). Your 1-1/4 has a round shaft, right?

Just asking.

Correct, round 3/8" shafts. I've been using it since mid June and have had no issues. Check with others though; I have seen a few posts where folks have been less than happy with their key less chucks. Mine's been great.

It doesn't seem like using a key should be that big of a deal but I sure enjoy not worrying about it. My old chuck was pressed on when I had my DP serviced and I couldn't get the chuck off. I bought a new taper adapter for $8 so now if I want to swap back and forth, I just use the drift key to pop the whole shaft out.

[Peter Quadarella]

Thanks Phil, I gave it a try and was ultra careful, using the spin/wiggle technique you mentioned. I got it down to .003", which is pretty good.

Measuring the bit is important here, because if you look at the chuck, it looks terrible (like always), but it appears to be only an external imbalance. It does seem to cause a little extra vibration though because of that.

[Tom Henderson2]

Some folks suggest that the best way to install the chuck is to open the chuck so that the jaws are retracted inside the body, supporting that with the drillpress table, and then bringing the quill down to seat on the chuck arbor. That helps to ensure that the chuck is inserted squarely.

I've never tried it, but it makes sense to me.

For woodworking, 0.010 runout at the bit doesn't seem too bad at all.


-TH

[Steven DeMars]

Appreciate any suggestions as to what I need to check out run-out on drill press, table saw, etc . . .

What, Where & How Accurate do I need . . .

Any suggestions appreciated . . .

Looked at ENCO but, really confused now . . . :)

Steve

[John Thompson]

Peter.. I personally would not be concerned at all unless you mainly do metal working where engine components come in play. I restored Old Muscle Cars for years and to a machinist run-put would play a much larger role.

I personally think putting a dial caliber.. etc. in the hands of a WW'er was not the best thing that has happened to Woodworking in General. If run-out on a drill press or TS becomes excessive.. you will physically see evidence of that as the cut or hole will telegraph their is a problem.

My BIL is a machine shop foreman at Delta Air Lines here in Atlanta. He has a need for dial calibers... micro-meters.. etc. At his Shop at home you won't find them on the premise on the Woodworking side as he does both metal and WW there.

Good luck and just my opinion of course...

Sarge..

[Peter Quadarella]

I think if you don't notice it and it doesn't bother you now, I wouldn't worry about it. In my case I could see the runout, and sometimes my holes were not great.

A dial indicator is what is used to measure it, but I'm no authority on its use.

[Peter Quadarella]

John, I agree about dial indicators and woodworkers, although with these days of internet learning, it was difficult for me to ask this question without some more concrete measure to tell you guys.

On the other hand, I have tinkered a little bit with gunsmithing (just fixing/tuning old revolvers mainly) so I was hoping if the need arose I would be able to use my drill press in that realm also. I also do a bit of reloading, and I have stored seperately a bunch of the "other" types of tools (Mititoyo calipers, Brownells bits, Ohaus scales, and all that good stuff).

[John Thompson]

John, I agree about dial indicators and woodworkers, although with these days of internet learning, it was difficult for me to ask this question without some more concrete measure to tell you guys.

On the other hand, I have tinkered a little bit with gunsmithing (just fixing/tuning old revolvers mainly) so I was hoping if the need arose I would be able to use my drill press in that realm also. I also do a bit of reloading, and I have stored seperately a bunch of the "other" types of tools (Mititoyo calipers, Brownells bits, Ohaus scales, and all that good stuff).

For general WW'ing I believe you can as I do. If you get into close tolerances you might consider otherwise. And the gauges are not a bad thing at all.. not just something that should be put in the hands of those that don't know how to use or under the illustion that anything short of perfect is un-satisfactory. .002 even in metal-work is tolerable.

Be sure your drill bit is straight.. be sure you have it centered in the chuck and if you have the chuck off... turn it upside down and shine a flash-light in. I once had excessive wobble due to the fact the drill bit had been in a keyless chuck in a hand drill. The bit twisted and I didn't notice there was a burr on the bit shank that would not allow a proper seat in the chuc, And if course there are times in a hurry that I insert a bit in angled.. but most of those will definitely worble to the point they look like heli-copter blades winding down when the engine is shut off. That happens with TS blades winding down after the motor is cut as partiall;y an illusion IMO.

I was once very interested in gun-smithing once when younger. I ran a hunter-killer team for 75th Ranger Regiment in VN and after I came home.. my interest in fire-arms in general waned. I do have a concealed carry permit but at this point I don't own a rifle or shot-gun. I started hunting as a kid around 7 years old and at one time had an arsenal. I don't hunt at all any more.

Funny how things change sometimes through circumstance.. :)

Regards and good luck...

Sarge..

[Vic Damone]

Basic drill presses commonly come with a separate spindle and chuck. A one piece spindle/chuck may be available for your press. These can be pricy though.

I have an inexpensive offshore made press. I recently removed and cleaned the spindle and the quill with a fine emery paper, reseated the spindle and installed the Woodcraft keyless chuck. It's much better but not perfect.

The keyless chuck has not slipped and it will spoil you. And now I know exactly where my chuck key is.

Vic

[Peter Quadarella]

Thanks guys for all the advice and tips, this has been a very helpful thread to me, as usual :).

Sarge, I hear you.. with all this woodworking, my interest has waned a bit regarding the other stuff. Thanks very much for your contribution to my safety! :)

[Phil Thien]

I personally think putting a dial caliber.. etc. in the hands of a WW'er was not the best thing that has happened to Woodworking in General.

There seem to be two camps: (1) Those that think using machinist tools for machine setup is a waste of time. (2) Those that think it improves quality and actually saves time (and materials). I'm in camp #2.

I think woodworkers should strive for .003 to .004 for table saw/drill press runout. .003 to .004 for miter-slot to blade and fence to blade alignment is easily achieved, too.

.004 sounds like an infinitesimal number, but it is really just another way of saying 1/250th of an inch.

I started woodworking with a table saw with awful blade wobble, had serious wobble in drill bits chucked up in my drill press chuck, had terrible vibration in my running bandsaw, etc. I thought it was all normal and yet everything I made looked terrible.

A $25 dial indicator and some shop-made jigs allowed me to improve my machines to the point that friends with high-end cabinet saws and other equipment started asking me to check their gear.

Now everything I make looks terrible, but not because of my machines. ;)

[Clifford Mescher]

There seem to be two camps: (1) Those that think using machinist tools for machine setup is a waste of time. (2) Those that think it improves quality and actually saves time (and materials). I'm in camp #2.

I think woodworkers should strive for .003 to .004 for table saw/drill press runout. .003 to .004 for miter-slot to blade and fence to blade alignment is easily achieved, too.

.004 sounds like an infinitesimal number, but it is really just another way of saying 1/250th of an inch.

I started woodworking with a table saw with awful blade wobble, had serious wobble in drill bits chucked up in my drill press chuck, had terrible vibration in my running bandsaw, etc. I thought it was all normal and yet everything I made looked terrible.

A $25 dial indicator and some shop-made jigs allowed me to improve my machines to the point that friends with high-end cabinet saws and other equipment started asking me to check their gear.

Now everything I make looks terrible, but not because of my machines. ;)
Measuring with dial or digital calipers is easier for old eyes to see. It is an upgrade not worth resisting.Clifford

[Eddie Darby]

If you can take advantage of where each runout is, by aligning them so they cancel each other out as much as possible, you might get it down more.